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11 Nov Fw: [BIRDBAND] final comments [Jack Clinton Eitniear ] 11 Nov final comments [Ellen Paul ] 11 Nov FW: final comments [Doug Collister ] 10 Nov banding photography query [Yola Monakhov ] 8 Nov Hilton Pond 10/22/11 (White Hummingbirds) ["Bill Hilton Jr. (RESEARCH)" ] 8 Nov ringing (banding) in Gelderland [Norman Deans van Swelm ] 8 Nov Re: marlene condon (UNCLASSIFIED) ["Stratford, Jeffrey" ] 8 Nov Re: marlene condon (UNCLASSIFIED) ["Voisine, Matthew NAN02" ] 8 Nov Re: Change of Subject- NSWO Recording [Scott Weidensaul ] 8 Nov Re: seconding Derek's comments [John and Sue Gregoire ] 8 Nov Re: seconding Derek's comments [Lyndon Kearsley ] 8 Nov Re: final comments [Lyndon Kearsley ] 8 Nov Re: Father of bird-banding [Rob Robinson ] 8 Nov Re: Important article [ ] 7 Nov Re: Important article [Diana Humple ] 7 Nov marlene condon [Jean Bickal ] 8 Nov seconding Derek's comments [James Cracknell ] 7 Nov Re: seconding Derek's comments [Derek J Matthews ] 7 Nov seconding Derek's comments [Julian Hudson ] 7 Nov Change of Subject- NSWO Recording [George Rowsom ] 7 Nov Re: final comments [Peter Wilkinson ] 7 Nov final comments [Ellen Paul ] 7 Nov FW: [BIRDBAND] final comments [Derek J Matthews ] 7 Nov Re: final comments [James Cracknell ] 7 Nov Re: final comments [Marlene Condon ] 7 Nov Re: Father of bird-banding [Mara McDonald ] 7 Nov Re: final comments [ ] 7 Nov Re: final comments ["CelticCail AT aol.com" ] 7 Nov Re: final comments [Anya Illes ] 7 Nov Re: final comments [Marlene Condon ] 7 Nov Re: final comments [Anya Illes ] 7 Nov final comments [Marlene Condon ] 6 Nov Re: thanks to all who wrote following my article clarification [Charlie ] 6 Nov Metro Beach banding report - fall 2011 season finale [Allen Chartier ] 6 Nov Re: thanks to all who wrote following my article clarification ["Bill Hilton Jr. (RESEARCH)" ] 6 Nov Re: thanks to all who wrote following my article clarification [Mara McDonald ] 6 Nov Re: thanks to all who wrote following my article clarification [Scott Weidensaul ] 6 Nov thanks to all who wrote following my article clarification [Marlene Condon ] 5 Nov Re: comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional [Dennis Vroman ] 5 Nov Re: comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional ["CelticCail AT aol.com" ] 5 Nov Re: comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional [Ann Nightingale ] 5 Nov Re: comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional [Mara McDonald ] 5 Nov Re: comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional [Marlene A Condon ] 5 Nov Re: color bands [Jack Clinton Eitniear ] 5 Nov color bands [Anthony Hill ] 4 Nov the hits keep coming [Charlie ] 3 Nov warbler 2630-90728 [Charlie ] 3 Nov Re: celluloid color bands [Risto Juvaste ] 2 Nov celluloid color bands ["William H. Barnard" ] 1 Nov VARC - October Blog! [Derek J Matthews ] 1 Nov Wing Island banding blog, Brewster, MA [Sue Finnegan ] 31 Oct New publication on measuring birds [Rob Robinson ] 30 Oct Exciting Louisiana Bird Banding [jared wolfe ] 31 Oct Re: Happy, super happy [ ] 30 Oct integrate this data in BBL data base [Manuel Grosselet ] 30 Oct Happy, super happy [Manuel Grosselet ] 30 Oct Metro Beach banding report - October 24 & 28, 2011 [Allen Chartier ] 28 Oct spatial modelling with INLA workshop, St Andrews January 2012 [janine illian ] 27 Oct Bob McKInney [John and Sue Gregoire ] 27 Oct Re: Request about band sizes [Robert Frey ] 26 Oct Re: Banding Pliers [Charlie ] 25 Oct Request about band sizes [Marcin Faber ] 25 Oct Bow nets available for sale [John and Sue Gregoire ] 24 Oct Re: Banding Pliers [Manuel Grosselet ] 24 Oct Banding Pliers [Thomas Fowler ] 24 Oct Banding in Ecuador [Derek J Matthews ] 24 Oct Inland Bird Banding 2011 meeting/Call for Papers [H Thomas Bartlett ] 24 Oct Hilton Pond 10/11/11 (Ode To Goldenrod) ["Bill Hilton Jr. (RESEARCH)" ] 21 Oct migration folllow up [Manuel Grosselet ] 20 Oct result one year veracruz [Manuel Grosselet ] 18 Oct Request for assistance with climate change vulnerability assessment ["Hostetler, Jeffrey" ] 18 Oct Wing island banding blog [Sue Finnegan ] 16 Oct report for Sunday 10/16/11 morning banding at Clear Springs Ranch [David Elwonger ] 16 Oct Metro Beach banding report - October 12 & 14, 2011 [Allen Chartier ] 16 Oct Re: WIWA recovery [Mike Bishop ] 15 Oct WIWA recovery [Manuel Grosselet ] Subject: Fw: [BIRDBAND] final comments From: Jack Clinton Eitniear <jce AT CSTBINC.ORG> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 17:57:47 -0800 It is my impression that the days of "recreational banding" are It is my impression that the days of "recreational banding" are over. The Banding Laboratory requires a detailed research plan that justifies all banding and marking. Sub-permitees as well have to undergo some pretty rigorous training ......a far cry from the past.  Banding does stress birds and can, on occasion, create added mortality but hopefully this is mitigated by the data obtained. My only "beef" from banding is that I think the data obtained by most banders should be worked and published more than it is.  Ornithologist still rely too heavy on study skins for questions of molt and morphometrics despite numerous specimens being  handled on a regular basis by banders.  The journal North American Bird Bander should have twice the page count!   Jack Clinton Eitniear   "We will be known forever by the tracks we leave" Dakota Indian Saying ________________________________ From: Ellen Paul To: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 6:57 PM Subject: [BIRDBAND] final comments The problem is that Ms. Condon assumed that banders do not do cost-benefit, that banders do not care about the impact of their research, and do not strive to minimize or eliminate that impact. In fact, they do that (cost-benefit), they do care, and they do strive. They have two sets of ethical standards - the North American Banding Council manuals (and the accompanying training) and the Ornithological Council's /Guidelines to the Use of Wild Birds in Research/. Furthermore, they are subject to permit requirements (BBL and BBO) that themselves indicate these agencies have determined that the cost is outweighed by the benefit, and, in the case of researchers who receive federal (U.S. or Canadian funding), the legally mandated review and approval by Animal Care and Use Committees. She didn't say "the costs and benefits should be considered." She made the calculation that the cost outweighed the benefit based entirely on her personal emotional reaction to banding and without an ounce of data. Ellen Paul Ellen Paul Executive Director The Ornithological Council Email:ellen.paul AT verizon.net "Providing Scientific Information about Birds" http://www.nmnh.si.edu/BIRDNET" On 11/11/11 2:23 PM, Doug Collister wrote: > I have read Marlene Condon's contribution in The Wildlife Professional Vol 5 > No. 3 2011 and do not find it unreasonable.  My view is that banders need to > accept challenges to the cost/benefit of banding projects and provide > rational and measured justification to the challengers and ourselves that > what we are doing is appropriate and scientifically valuable. > > > > I am disappointed in the tenor that has characterized the exchange with > respect to this issue and Ms. Condon.  As banders we need to remind > ourselves of the privilege we have been granted to study birds with this > invasive technique.  Associated with that privilege is the responsibility to > continually reassess the cost/benefit.  There is no question that capturing > and handling during banding studies results in stress to the birds including > a small number of injuries and a smaller number of mortalities. > > > > Along with its scientific value banding is exciting and fun and this may > sometimes cloud our ability to objectively assess the cost/benefit.  It is > important that we don't band simply because we can. > > > > > > > > Doug Collister > > President > > Calgary Bird Banding Society > > > >  > www.calgarybirdbandingsociety.com > > > > > > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html > archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: final comments From: Ellen Paul <ellen.paul AT VERIZON.NET> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:57:04 -0500 The problem is that Ms. Condon assumed that banders do not do cost-benefit, that banders do not care about the impact of their research, and do not strive to minimize or eliminate that impact. In fact, they do that (cost-benefit), they do care, and they do strive. They have two sets of ethical standards - the North American Banding Council manuals (and the accompanying training) and the Ornithological Council's /Guidelines to the Use of Wild Birds in Research/. Furthermore, they are subject to permit requirements (BBL and BBO) that themselves indicate these agencies have determined that the cost is outweighed by the benefit, and, in the case of researchers who receive federal (U.S. or Canadian funding), the legally mandated review and approval by Animal Care and Use Committees. She didn't say "the costs and benefits should be considered." She made the calculation that the cost outweighed the benefit based entirely on her personal emotional reaction to banding and without an ounce of data. Ellen Paul Ellen Paul Executive Director The Ornithological Council Email:ellen.paul AT verizon.net "Providing Scientific Information about Birds" http://www.nmnh.si.edu/BIRDNET" On 11/11/11 2:23 PM, Doug Collister wrote: > I have read Marlene Condon's contribution in The Wildlife Professional Vol 5 > No. 3 2011 and do not find it unreasonable. My view is that banders need to > accept challenges to the cost/benefit of banding projects and provide > rational and measured justification to the challengers and ourselves that > what we are doing is appropriate and scientifically valuable. > > > > I am disappointed in the tenor that has characterized the exchange with > respect to this issue and Ms. Condon. As banders we need to remind > ourselves of the privilege we have been granted to study birds with this > invasive technique. Associated with that privilege is the responsibility to > continually reassess the cost/benefit. There is no question that capturing > and handling during banding studies results in stress to the birds including > a small number of injuries and a smaller number of mortalities. > > > > Along with its scientific value banding is exciting and fun and this may > sometimes cloud our ability to objectively assess the cost/benefit. It is > important that we don't band simply because we can. > > > > > > > > Doug Collister > > President > > Calgary Bird Banding Society > > > > > www.calgarybirdbandingsociety.com > > > > > > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html > archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: FW: final comments From: Doug Collister <collistr AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:23:44 -0700 I have read Marlene Condon's contribution in The Wildlife Professional Vol 5 No. 3 2011 and do not find it unreasonable. My view is that banders need to accept challenges to the cost/benefit of banding projects and provide rational and measured justification to the challengers and ourselves that what we are doing is appropriate and scientifically valuable. I am disappointed in the tenor that has characterized the exchange with respect to this issue and Ms. Condon. As banders we need to remind ourselves of the privilege we have been granted to study birds with this invasive technique. Associated with that privilege is the responsibility to continually reassess the cost/benefit. There is no question that capturing and handling during banding studies results in stress to the birds including a small number of injuries and a smaller number of mortalities. Along with its scientific value banding is exciting and fun and this may sometimes cloud our ability to objectively assess the cost/benefit. It is important that we don't band simply because we can. Doug Collister President Calgary Bird Banding Society www.calgarybirdbandingsociety.com archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: banding photography query From: Yola Monakhov <ysm3 AT COLUMBIA.EDU> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:05:34 -0700 Dear Banders: I am writing with a query to anyone who may be doing banding work in the tropics this winter and would be interested in having a photographer artist join for about a week. I have been working on a project in which I photograph birds against backgrounds, or in mobile "photography studios," in the manner of 19th century drawings (but with live birds) and have been working most recently at Manomet, Massachusetts, under the supervision of Trevor Lloyd-Evans. Since that operation is coming to its seasonal end, I am looking for someone who will be banding in the winter season, at the other end of the migratory trail. I am a professor of art at Smith College, and am preparing work for an upcoming exhibition at the Sasha Wolf Gallery in New York. I am trained in handling birds, understand the time and stress constraints of working with them, and am most mindful of their welfare. The way I've worked recently is to set up my equipment out of the way of the banders' work, and to photograph once the birds have been processed. If you would like to see examples of my work, or learn more about the project, please feel free to e-mail me at ymonakho AT smith.edu. I would like to schedule a time to come down over my winter break in December, or, more likely, in early January. Thank you! Yola Monakhov-Stockton Harnish Visiting Artist Smith College 413-585-3384 archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Hilton Pond 10/22/11 (White Hummingbirds) From: "Bill Hilton Jr. (RESEARCH)" <research AT HILTONPOND.ORG> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 21:20:15 -0600 Hummingbirds are interesting enough as it is, but when a white one visits a backyard feeder the sport of hummer watching goes to a new level. "This Week at Hilton Pond" we offer an annual collection of photos sent to us this year of white hummingbirds--albinos, leucistos, and pieds. To view our 22-31 November 2011 photo essay about these ghostly creatures, please visit http://www.hiltonpond.org/ThisWeek111022.html While there, don't forget to scroll down for a list of all birds banded and recaptured during the period. We also include some miscellaneous nature notes, a Halloween image, and an acknowledgement of folks who have contributed to the education, research, and conservation efforts of Hilton Pond Center in recent days. Happy Nature Watching! BILL ========= RESEARCH PROGRAM c/o BILL HILTON JR. Executive Director Hilton Pond Center for Piedmont Natural History 1432 DeVinney Road, York, South Carolina 29745 USA office & cell (803) 684-5852 fax (803) 684-0255 Please visit our web sites (courtesy of Comporium.net): Hilton Pond Center for Piedmont Natural History at http://www.hiltonpond.org "Operation RubyThroat: The Hummingbird Project" at http://www.rubythroat.org ================== archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: ringing (banding) in Gelderland From: Norman Deans van Swelm <norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 17:49:49 +0100 Dear collegues and friends have a look at the youngest Dutch master ringer Bram Ubels, 18 years old, when interviewed by a Dutch network during ringing, ahhh as if I see myself 100 years ago: http://www.omroepgelderland.nl/web/Programmas/TV/Gelderse-koppen-5/Gelderse-Koppen-artikel/1195941/EEN-RING-UIT-LIEFDE.htm As for removing Marlene from the site I hate to remove people from lists or debates simply because they disagree with me however I don't think Marlene was in anyway interested in what we do, her comparison with nazi practices was typical for people in search of something extremely bad in order to proof how bad her objects of criticism (i.e. us!) are. It happens too often and is a sign of fundamental incompetence in debating but OK, she is, I guess (and hope), young and inexperienced. However she did not give in let alone apologised and that is too much and closes the door for good. Cheers, Norman __._,_.___ archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: marlene condon (UNCLASSIFIED) From: "Stratford, Jeffrey" <jeffrey.stratford AT WILKES.EDU> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:25:33 -0500 I've always been under the impression that science was an activity where we try to confront our hypotheses about the natural world with data to either support or reject hypotheses. What bugged me about Marlene's paper (I didn't read it but I read her posts here) is that the article was both hypothesis and data free. In her own words she relied on logic (i.e., why collect any data?) and empathy. As for banning or accepting a person, what would a scientific approach be? I'm quite happy to allow a moderator to use their opinion on such matters since I voluntarily (and I assume everyone else did too) joined the list. If I don't like it, I'll leave the list. I, for one, do not want a deluge of emails in my inbox debating the merits of banding (and mist netting, since that was really the focus of the arguments). I'd much rather read about cool captures, new techniques, etc. ************************************ Dr. Jeffrey A. Stratford Department of Health and Biological Sciences 84 W. South Street Wilkes University, PA 18766 jeffrey.stratford AT wilkes.edu 570-408-4761 (office) 570-332-2942 (cell) http://web.wilkes.edu/jeffrey.stratford/ ************************************ -----Original Message----- From: Bird Bander's Forum [mailto:BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Voisine, Matthew NAN02 Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 9:01 AM To: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDBAND] marlene condon (UNCLASSIFIED) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Jean and the rest of Birdband Why would you remove her? Is it a requirement to be a bander in order to be part of this list-serv? I thought it was only necessary to be interested in bird banding. Your removal of her based on a view that research relook into the affects of banding on birds is contrary to science. Science is ALWAYS evolving. What is one of the first things you learned in any science class regarding research? REPEAT, REPEAT, REPEAT. Removing someone with dissenting views is not scientific. I think that Marlene made a poor choice in her analogy to bird banding. However, she apologized and noted that. Her analogy however was correct in the fact that you do not have to actually partake in something to understand it. How many Astronomers have been to outer space? How many historians lived in the era they are considered experts? Knowledge is power and that knowledge can be acquired through various channels. Marlene should be brought back to the list serv. Matthew Voisine 917.790.8718 -----Original Message----- From: Jean Bickal [mailto:jbickal AT GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 19:54 Subject: marlene condon Sorry, I haven't been paying attention to what was going on. I deleted Ms. Condon from the list. I therefore believe the discussion on this issue is at and end. Back to banding! ;-) Jean Bickal US Co-Listowner BirdBand archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: marlene condon (UNCLASSIFIED) From: "Voisine, Matthew NAN02" <Matthew.Voisine AT USACE.ARMY.MIL> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 14:00:51 +0000 Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Jean and the rest of Birdband Why would you remove her? Is it a requirement to be a bander in order to be part of this list-serv? I thought it was only necessary to be interested in bird banding. Your removal of her based on a view that research relook into the affects of banding on birds is contrary to science. Science is ALWAYS evolving. What is one of the first things you learned in any science class regarding research? REPEAT, REPEAT, REPEAT. Removing someone with dissenting views is not scientific. I think that Marlene made a poor choice in her analogy to bird banding. However, she apologized and noted that. Her analogy however was correct in the fact that you do not have to actually partake in something to understand it. How many Astronomers have been to outer space? How many historians lived in the era they are considered experts? Knowledge is power and that knowledge can be acquired through various channels. Marlene should be brought back to the list serv. Matthew Voisine 917.790.8718 -----Original Message----- From: Jean Bickal [mailto:jbickal AT GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 19:54 Subject: marlene condon Sorry, I haven't been paying attention to what was going on. I deleted Ms. Condon from the list. I therefore believe the discussion on this issue is at and end. Back to banding! ;-) Jean Bickal US Co-Listowner BirdBand archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: Change of Subject- NSWO Recording From: Scott Weidensaul <scottweidensaul AT VERIZON.NET> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 08:49:10 -0500 The Project Owlnet website (www.projectowlnet.org), which has been greatly expanded and revised in the past six months, is the best source for all things saw-whet. A lot of the resources, including downloadable audio files and subscription to the SAWWHETNET listserve, are behind a password-protected firewall, but banders and researchers working with any owl species are encouraged to join. Scott Weidensaul Schuylkill Haven, PA USA On Nov 7, 2011, at 6:55 PM, George Rowsom wrote: > Can anyone direct me to a good website to download NSWO vocalization? > Thanks, > G Rowsom > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: seconding Derek's comments From: John and Sue Gregoire <khmo AT EMPACC.NET> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 08:26:24 -0500 Thanks Lyndon! The unfortunate discussion points to a problem that has been obvious to me for many years. BIRDBAND has not been a forum in which banders can share tips and concerns openly due to the uncertain nature of the site security. That shouldn't be as we very much need and open and honest forum. To that end I suggest that those wanting to join the group establish their bona fides as banders before being allowed on the list. I belong to another group of avian researchers where we communicate very successfully in a closed Yahoogroup. That discussion is always respectful and extremely vibrant. It's what we need for BIRDBAND. Best to all, John -- John and Sue Gregoire Field Ornithologists Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory 5373 Fitzgerald Road Burdett,NY 14818-9626 Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/ "Conserve and Create Habitat" On Tue, November 8, 2011 05:43, Lyndon Kearsley wrote: > Hi James (and others) > > I have been associated with BIRDBAND since 1996 I think (although much of > that period has been very back seat; Jean is very quick off the mark and I > usually only stand in during her holiday periods and expeditions). > > In that period I can only remember albeit vaguely one short period of > moderation. For all the other years of correspondence this has bot been > necessary or helpful. > > I know that the UK forum is moderated but then it is run by the Ringing > Scheme itself and they have a public face to respect. BIRDBAND is less > formal but equally important and has for years had participants and to a > greater degree readers. Most of the fluctuating 5 to 600 participants > rarely post. Although largely from the US and Canada, they do however > represent around 35 countries and for many English is not a first language > anyway. This diversity is I think both important and enriching. > > Before pushing for moderation (which in my view is a last resort) I would > go for a regular and polite reminder to the list of what is expected and > acceptable. A sort of code of conduct. Rules require policing and therefore > moderation. > > What I would like to see is a tsunami of mails on technique and tips. I'll > post a few myself to put my money where my mouth is. > > Success and happy banding to all > > > regards > > Lyndon Kearsley > > European Co-listowner BIRDBAND > Belgium > > > On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 01:32, James Cracknell wrote: > >> Hi >> >> Totally agree. I am sure a number of us would be willing to moderate in >> different parts of the world to account for time zone differences. All >> most of them need is a reply to the email and it is sorted. >> >> There needs to be a set of rules published as well about what is/isn't >> acceptable for anyone joining the group. The mail program can send them to >> them automatically. The old website is no more. >> >> J. >> Suffolk, United Kingdom. >> >> >> On 8 November 2011 00:15, Julian Hudson wrote: >> >> > While I agree on the continuing and open discussion on banding ethics, >> > (indeed on anything, because that is how we stay honest and learn), Derek >> > is right, this forum should be for banders, otherwise it could get >> over-run >> > by anti-banding and animal rights activists. This topic is heating up >> all >> > over, due mostly to the ridiculous reaction to the red-tailed hawk in NY >> > and the viral ways of the internet. >> > Forums ultimately close once they are flooded by emotionally charged >> > discussions. There are plenty of other venues for this discussion. This >> > should be moderated more closely to allow just comment, questions and >> > information by and for banders. >> > The only way this can be done is if a moderator actually looks at all the >> > postings before they go "on air". >> > >> > Julian Hudson >> > >> > archives and subscription options can be found at: >> > http://listserv.arizona.edu/**archives/birdband.html< >> http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html> >> > >> >> archives and subscription options can be found at: >> http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html >> > > > > -- > Lyndon > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html > archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: seconding Derek's comments From: Lyndon Kearsley <lkearsley AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 11:43:05 +0100 Hi James (and others) I have been associated with BIRDBAND since 1996 I think (although much of that period has been very back seat; Jean is very quick off the mark and I usually only stand in during her holiday periods and expeditions). In that period I can only remember albeit vaguely one short period of moderation. For all the other years of correspondence this has bot been necessary or helpful. I know that the UK forum is moderated but then it is run by the Ringing Scheme itself and they have a public face to respect. BIRDBAND is less formal but equally important and has for years had participants and to a greater degree readers. Most of the fluctuating 5 to 600 participants rarely post. Although largely from the US and Canada, they do however represent around 35 countries and for many English is not a first language anyway. This diversity is I think both important and enriching. Before pushing for moderation (which in my view is a last resort) I would go for a regular and polite reminder to the list of what is expected and acceptable. A sort of code of conduct. Rules require policing and therefore moderation. What I would like to see is a tsunami of mails on technique and tips. I'll post a few myself to put my money where my mouth is. Success and happy banding to all regards Lyndon Kearsley European Co-listowner BIRDBAND Belgium On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 01:32, James Cracknell wrote: > Hi > > Totally agree. I am sure a number of us would be willing to moderate in > different parts of the world to account for time zone differences. All > most of them need is a reply to the email and it is sorted. > > There needs to be a set of rules published as well about what is/isn't > acceptable for anyone joining the group. The mail program can send them to > them automatically. The old website is no more. > > J. > Suffolk, United Kingdom. > > > On 8 November 2011 00:15, Julian Hudson wrote: > > > While I agree on the continuing and open discussion on banding ethics, > > (indeed on anything, because that is how we stay honest and learn), Derek > > is right, this forum should be for banders, otherwise it could get > over-run > > by anti-banding and animal rights activists. This topic is heating up > all > > over, due mostly to the ridiculous reaction to the red-tailed hawk in NY > > and the viral ways of the internet. > > Forums ultimately close once they are flooded by emotionally charged > > discussions. There are plenty of other venues for this discussion. This > > should be moderated more closely to allow just comment, questions and > > information by and for banders. > > The only way this can be done is if a moderator actually looks at all the > > postings before they go "on air". > > > > Julian Hudson > > > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > > http://listserv.arizona.edu/**archives/birdband.html< > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html> > > > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html > -- Lyndon archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: final comments From: Lyndon Kearsley <lkearsley AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 11:17:24 +0100 Dear Ellen, dear colleagues >> writing a letter to the editor and would welcome co-signers. It is difficult to police and certainly to vet anyone who wishes to joint this forum. We still have an acceptance process but do not require any formal details of the person requesting acceptance. This is usually enough to weed out spam but we still have problems such as this last thread. Jean has now removed this lady from the list. When such discussions start is it usually best to let them run their course and as list coordinators we do not often (need to) interfere. However unpleasant, they are often a wake up call and quite an insight into how much PR and public education banders and Ringing/Banding Schemes need to do. Here in Belgium and Holland we have had several cases this last week of net theft and vandalism. One case in particular is particularly disturbing; whilst one can "understand" robbery by illegal bird catchers, net cutting with clear statements that the perpetrators are from "rogue" animal rights groups is a very bad sign. Actually I consider bird banders / ringers to be an animal rights group. If it were ultimately not for the birds long term benefit then no one would put in the work effort that we do. Whilst we all (hopefully) enjoy the benefits of freedom of speech, there is a lot of irresponsible copy published at the expense of all aspects of scientific research whether lambasting field studies such as banding or more public issues such as climate change. Ellen I would be happy for you to add/use my name as a co-signer, for what its worth. Thanks for taking the initiative. regards, Lyndon Kearsley Belgium European Co-Listowner BirdBand On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 22:59, Ellen Paul wrote: > As the daughter of a survivor, I was absolutely aghast at Marlene Condon's > comparison, and her apology accomplished nothing in my eyes because anyone > who can make such a statement has demonstrated that they have exceedingly > poor judgment of the infamous sort exhibited by PETA: > > Ingrid Newkirk >, > the president of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals < > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**People_for_the_Ethical_** > Treatment_of_Animals> > (PETA), has herself made the comparison unambiguously, saying: "Six million > Jews died in concentration camps Concentration_camp >, > but six billion broiler chickens will die this year in slaughterhouses." > > Apologies from people with such poor judgment are meaningless to me. > > Now, at the risk of starting a quarrel with people and an organization I > admire very much, I am aghast that The Wildlife Society, which has had its > own share of trouble from uninformed animal rights individuals and > organizations, would publish a piece like this and I am writing a letter to > the editor and would welcome co-signers. Granted, this is not the > peer-reviewed journal published by that esteemed society, but it is not > appropriate to publish a piece like this in a scientific publication - > PERIOD. Ms. Condon relies on logic, not science, to make her argument. She > makes no mention of the weight of the bands in the absolute or relative to > the weight (actually, mass) of the bird. > > I was particularly disturbed by Ms. Condon's disingenuous claim about the > Refsnider paper. She ignores the fact that she mis-cited it and proceeds to > malign the journal. > > What also bothers me is her comparison of bird banding to the killing of > two Whimbrels: > > 4) Empathy (the ability to identify with and understand another’s > situation and feelings) tells you that birds are absolutely terrified when > handled by humans (their natural enemies, as witnessed this fall by the > hunting > in the Lesser Antilles that killed 2 whimbrels being tracked). It’s > logical > then, to conclude that banders are inflicting severe stress—and thus > physical harm—upon the creatures they profess to care about. > > > There is actually nothing logical in this paragraph. Humans are not the > natural enemies of birds. Birds, like all animals, have a negative reaction > to predation and fear being caught by anything. That does not mean that the > short-term capture and handling of birds by banders entails severe distress > and physical harm. But in any case, we don't measure those things by logic > or illogic. We measure it scientifically. For instance, by corticosteroid > levels. By the length of time it takes for the bird to resume its normal > behaviors. By breeding success. By return rates. We have data on all these > things. We don't make assumptions. Scientists make observations, develop > hypotheses, and test those hypotheses. > > And that is why it is so appalling that a scientific society chose to > publish this drivel. > > Anyone interested in signing on to my letter please contact me directly. > > Ellen Paul (speaking individually and not on behalf of the organization > that pays my salary) > > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/**archives/birdband.html > -- Lyndon archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: Father of bird-banding From: Rob Robinson <rob.robinson AT BTO.ORG> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 10:11:41 +0000 Mara et al, funnily enough i was just reading about this the other day in a volume edited by Jackson, Davis & Tautin (Bird banding in th North America: the first hundred years, Memoirs of the Nuttall Ornithological Club 15, 2008). I quote (from pp5-6) "In 1890 Hans Christian Mortensen, a teacher in Viborg, Denmark, experimented with banding by marking two Starlings with leg bands made of zinc. He watched those marked birds and concluded that his experiment was a miserable failure; the zinc bands were too heavy and affected the movements of the birds. He retained the idea, however, and when aluminium became available in 1899, he tried again, using strips of aluminium that included a number and return address. He was successful in marking 165 starlings (mostly adults) and for his efforts is given credit for initiating scientific bird banding. ... Although his efforts may have been known to some American ornithologists, it doesn't seem to have been until 1921 that Mortensen's work was acknowledged in American ornithological journals. The idea for systematic banding of birds in North America seems to have arisen independently with Leon Jacob Cole in 1901. At the Michigan Academy of Science meeting held in March 1901, Cole gave a presentation in which he described the efforts of the US Fish Commission to learn the movements of fish by attaching numbered tags to them.This, he suggested, might also be done with birds, allowing us to learn of the movements of individuals." However,I have just noted in the preface (p v) they state "The year 2002 marked the 100th anniversary of scientific bird banding in North America. It all began when Dr Paul Bartsch of the Smithsonian Institution banded 23 Black-crowned Night-herons at Washington, DC. He used serially numbered bands with a 'Return to Smithsonian Institution' address." Mortensen wasn't the first to band/ring birds, there had been scattered records (of varying believability) of birds being marked since Roman times, and more recently since the 16th Century on. In England (and almost certainly elsewhere) there were various private schemes operating (mostly to do with game birds, such as woodcock). However, Mortensen's innovation (apart from the fact that aluminium had only recently become commercially available at affordable prices) was to have both a recognisable address to which anyone could return the ring and a serially incrementing number which identified each bird as an individual, a combination that no one seems to have achieved previously. Of course it's always possible that history remembers Mortensen since he publicised his efforts widely. For more on Mortensen and early banding see http://nou.natuurinfo.nl/website/ardea/ardea_show_article.php?nr=107 and I can recommend the Jackson et al volume for anyone interested in the breadth of achievements of banding in North America (and elsewhere) hope that helps cheers rob ******** 2010 ringing results now available at www.bto.org/ringing-report  *********** Dr Rob Robinson, Principal Ecologist British Trust for Ornithology, The Nunnery, Thetford, Norfolk, IP24 2PU Ph: +44 (0)1842 750050     E: rob.robinson AT bto.org Fx: +44 (0)1842 750030     W: www.bto.org/about-bto/our-staff/rob-robinson ====== "How can anyone be enlightened, when truth is so poorly lit" ======= On 7 November 2011 20:12, Mara McDonald wrote: > Oh, no!  You're making a liar out of me! It was not intentional, either. > > I thought I got the info from BBL, but alas, I didn't (just checked--although they may have updated their site).  I did find several possible references I might have used: > See > http://pwp.surfglobal.net/rmangile/Pigeons/LeonCole.html > > Wisconsin's Forgotten Ornithologist: Leon J. Cole > > Between 1902 and 1922, he wrote seven papers on bird banding alone. When bird banding gained stature in the field of scientific ornithology and its adherents formed an organization of devotees, Leon J. Cole became the president of the American Bird Banding Association. > > Thus, Dr. Cole is rightly regarded as the father of American bird banding. His academic life at Wisconsin forced him away from serious bird banding but not from his interest in birds. Through penetrating research he and his students produced an unparalleled insight into the genetics of the Columbidae. Hybridization of pigeons and ring doves was of particular importance. > > > > Here's Cole's paper: > > http://www.jstor.org/stable/4155031 > > Here's another link p 220 > http://www.jstor.org/stable/4073884?seq=4 > > I was researching the Department of Genetics' history for its Centennial in 2010, when I ran into a reference to Cole as The Father of Bird Banding.  Other than the first reference above, I'm not sure where else I may have picked it up.  To be sure, if he's a father, it would be of American Bird Banding.  You may want to correct me on that, too.  I'm currently readying a journal club presentation on mobile genetic elements, and thus, cannot take much time to clean up my act or poor references or false assignations.  Thank you for setting the record straight--I knew about Audubon, and also knew his efforts weren't too successful--I used Cole's "father" reference to justify putting up a poster on our banding efforts, just to nudge the lab types into knowing about.real research.  :) > > Mara McDonald > Madison WI > > On Nov 7, 2011, at 1:27 PM, Bill Mattox wrote: > >> Hello Mara! >> A statement in your e-mail on that OTHER subject(!) interested me (re: L.J. >> Cole). In talks about color banding and bird banding in general, I have >> stated that, from my knowledge of the subject, the father of bird banding >> was the Danish school-master H.C. Mortensen, known in Denmark as "Fugle" >> (Birds) Mortensen, who placed lead (!) rings on starlings in 1890. The >> banded starlings didn't fly very far (!), and Mortensen changed to steel or >> aluminum shortly thereafter. He started using aluminum when he banded a >> merganser, and, in 1899 banded 165 starlings with aluminum rings. Until his >> death in 1921 Mortensen succeeded in banding some 6,000 birds (Mattox >> 1970*). In Denmark, Mortensen was known as the father of modern >> bird-ringing. >> Any thoughts? When was L.J. Cole active? >> Thanks. >> >> Bill Mattox >> >> * Mattox, W.G. 1970. Bird-banding in Greenland. Arctic 23(4): 217-228. >> >> >> William G. Mattox, Ph.D. >> President >> Conservation Research Foundation >> 8300 Gantz Avenue >> Boise, ID 83709 >> >> (208) 362-3435 >> >> > > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html > archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: Important article From: J.C. Fernández-Ordóńez <jcwarbler AT YAHOO.ES> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 03:50:24 +0000 Here, full article in HTML format: http://onlinelibra Hola Diana, Here, full article in HTML format: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2041-210X.2011.00123.x/full I have in PDF: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2041-210X.2011.00123.x/pdf With the best wishes, Juan Carlos ====================== J.C. Fernández-Ordóńez San Carlos (Venezuela) jcwarbler AT yahoo.es +58 4263498040 >________________________________ >De: Diana Humple >Para: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Enviado: lunes 7 de noviembre de 2011 21:00 >Asunto: Re: [BIRDBAND] Important article > >Given the recent dialogue on BIRDBAND, I thought I'd follow up on CJ's earlier email announcing this publication that may be of interest to many of you ("How safe is mist netting? Evaluating the risk of injury and mortality to birds", Spotswood et al. 2011) with the link to the actual manuscript now available online at: > > > >http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2041-210X.2011.00123.x/abstract > > > >Best wishes, > > > >Diana Humple > > >--- >Diana Humple, Avian Ecologist & Banding Coordinator >PRBO Conservation Science >Pacific Coast & Central Valley Group >Palomarin Field Station >PO Box 1157 / 999 Mesa Road Bolinas CA 94924 >415.868.0655 ext. 386, cell 415.717.6390 > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bird Bander's Forum [mailto:BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of C. John Ralph >Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 10:38 AM >To: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Subject: [BIRDBAND] Important article > > > >Dear Folks, > >  You'll be interested in: "How safe is mist netting? Evaluating the > >risk of injury and mortality to birds." Erica Spotswood, Kari Roesch > >Goodman, Jay Carlisle, Renee Cormier, Diana Humple, Josee Rousseau, > >Susan Guers and Gina Barton.  Methods in Ecology and Evolution, 2011 (in > >press). > > > >  Also see the Science Daily summary of the new article > >  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110629203014.htm > > > >  When it's available on line, we'll let you know. > > > >kind regards,  c.j. > >-- > >                                              -----Dr. C. John Ralph > >--- USDA Forest Service, Pacific Southwest Research Station, > >            1700 Bayview Drive, Arcata, California 95521 > >  Telephone (707) 825-2992 cell: 499-9707 fax: 825-2901 home: 822-2015 > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >  cjralph AT humboldt1.com  c.ralph AT humboldt.edu  cralph AT fs.fed.us > >  http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/programs/TimberManagement/staff/cralph/ > > > >archives and subscription options can be found at: > >http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html > >archives and subscription options can be found at: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html > > > archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: Important article From: Diana Humple <dhumple AT PRBO.ORG> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 17:30:00 -0800 Given the recent dialogue on BIRDBAND, I thought I'd follow up on CJ's earlier email announcing this publication that may be of interest to many of you ("How safe is mist netting? Evaluating the risk of injury and mortality to birds", Spotswood et al. 2011) with the link to the actual manuscript now available online at: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2041-210X.2011.00123.x/abstract Best wishes, Diana Humple --- Diana Humple, Avian Ecologist & Banding Coordinator PRBO Conservation Science Pacific Coast & Central Valley Group Palomarin Field Station PO Box 1157 / 999 Mesa Road Bolinas CA 94924 415.868.0655 ext. 386, cell 415.717.6390 -----Original Message----- From: Bird Bander's Forum [mailto:BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of C. John Ralph Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 10:38 AM To: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDBAND] Important article Dear Folks, You'll be interested in: "How safe is mist netting? Evaluating the risk of injury and mortality to birds." Erica Spotswood, Kari Roesch Goodman, Jay Carlisle, Renee Cormier, Diana Humple, Josee Rousseau, Susan Guers and Gina Barton. Methods in Ecology and Evolution, 2011 (in press). Also see the Science Daily summary of the new article http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110629203014.htm When it's available on line, we'll let you know. kind regards, c.j. -- -----Dr. C. John Ralph --- USDA Forest Service, Pacific Southwest Research Station, 1700 Bayview Drive, Arcata, California 95521 Telephone (707) 825-2992 cell: 499-9707 fax: 825-2901 home: 822-2015 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cjralph AT humboldt1.com c.ralph AT humboldt.edu cralph AT fs.fed.us http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/programs/TimberManagement/staff/cralph/ archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: marlene condon From: Jean Bickal <jbickal AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 19:54:06 -0500 Sorry, I haven't been paying attention to what was going on. I deleted Ms. Condon from the list. I therefore believe the discussion on this issue is at and end. Back to banding! ;-) Jean Bickal US Co-Listowner BirdBand archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: seconding Derek's comments From: James Cracknell <james AT JCRACKNELL.CO.UK> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 00:32:23 +0000 Hi Totally agree. I am sure a number of us would be willing to moderate in different parts of the world to account for time zone differences. All most of them need is a reply to the email and it is sorted. There needs to be a set of rules published as well about what is/isn't acceptable for anyone joining the group. The mail program can send them to them automatically. The old website is no more. J. Suffolk, United Kingdom. On 8 November 2011 00:15, Julian Hudson wrote: > While I agree on the continuing and open discussion on banding ethics, > (indeed on anything, because that is how we stay honest and learn), Derek > is right, this forum should be for banders, otherwise it could get over-run > by anti-banding and animal rights activists. This topic is heating up all > over, due mostly to the ridiculous reaction to the red-tailed hawk in NY > and the viral ways of the internet. > Forums ultimately close once they are flooded by emotionally charged > discussions. There are plenty of other venues for this discussion. This > should be moderated more closely to allow just comment, questions and > information by and for banders. > The only way this can be done is if a moderator actually looks at all the > postings before they go "on air". > > Julian Hudson > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/**archives/birdband.html > archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: seconding Derek's comments From: Derek J Matthews <Derek.J.Matthews AT SPECTRUM-CANADA.COM> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 16:30:58 -0800 I think you're right Julian - Birdband is an amazing resource for banders/ringers and a gold mine of information with some of the most experienced banders/ringers in the world - I for one have learnt so much from it over the years and it's the first place I turn if I have a question. It would be a disaster if the forum became overrun with this type of posting and then got closed down. This lady has every right to air her opinion but not here - let's keep Birdband for banders/ringers and I'm afraid that means a moderator must look at the postings and decide whether they are appropriate for the group. I moderate a Yahoo chat group for VARC and you can choose whether people's postings are not moderated, always moderated or banned from posting - I'm not sure if the Birdband listserve has this facility but if not maybe we should consider moving it somewhere where the moderator has control over who posts. I also have to say that not only do we have some of the most experienced people here but we also have some of the most eloquent and articulate (Scott, Bill, James etc) and that this lady should have been left in no doubt as to the value of the work banders/ringers do and often with little or no financial reward. Keep up the brilliant work and let's make sure we don't lose Birdband because of something like this! Cheers. Derek Derek Matthews Vancouver Avian Research centre Vancouver, BC, Canada -----Original Message----- From: Bird Bander's Forum [mailto:BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Julian Hudson Sent: November-07-11 4:16 PM To: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDBAND] seconding Derek's comments While I agree on the continuing and open discussion on banding ethics, (indeed on anything, because that is how we stay honest and learn), Derek is right, this forum should be for banders, otherwise it could get over-run by anti-banding and animal rights activists. This topic is heating up all over, due mostly to the ridiculous reaction to the red-tailed hawk in NY and the viral ways of the internet. Forums ultimately close once they are flooded by emotionally charged discussions. There are plenty of other venues for this discussion. This should be moderated more closely to allow just comment, questions and information by and for banders. The only way this can be done is if a moderator actually looks at all the postings before they go "on air". Julian Hudson archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: seconding Derek's comments From: Julian Hudson <jhudson AT TELUS.NET> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 16:15:52 -0800 While I agree on the continuing and open discussion on banding ethics, (indeed on anything, because that is how we stay honest and learn), Derek is right, this forum should be for banders, otherwise it could get over-run by anti-banding and animal rights activists. This topic is heating up all over, due mostly to the ridiculous reaction to the red-tailed hawk in NY and the viral ways of the internet. Forums ultimately close once they are flooded by emotionally charged discussions. There are plenty of other venues for this discussion. This should be moderated more closely to allow just comment, questions and information by and for banders. The only way this can be done is if a moderator actually looks at all the postings before they go "on air". Julian Hudson archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Change of Subject- NSWO Recording From: George Rowsom <growsom AT OPTONLINE.NET> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 16:55:24 -0700 Can anyone direct me to a good website to download NSWO vocalization? Thanks, G Rowsom archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: final comments From: Peter Wilkinson <pjw42 AT WAITROSE.COM> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 22:01:38 +0000 I would just like to comment on one specific question in all this: what would happen if we stopped banding a species? As it happens, here in the UK we know a good bit of the answer from actual experience. In outline, about 20 years or so ago, House Sparrows were very common here and banded in fairly large numbers. It was felt that enough had been banded and banders were encouraged to direct their attention elsewhere by being charged a supplement over and above the usual cost of the band for each sparrow. The incentive (actually, I suppose, disincentive) worked and the numbers of House Sparrows banded plummeted. Unfortunately, by cruel coincidence, around the same time, the numbers of House Sparrows started to plummet. We still don't really know why and are hampered in trying to find out because we didn't band sufficient during the critical period of the decline to be able to calculate and compare mortality rates over the years between adults and juveniles. Compare our experience with House Sparrows with that with another bird whose population has shown a significant decline over roughly the same period, but the background banding of which never stopped, the Song Thrush. The British Trust for Ornithology (BTO) runs an Integrated Population Monitoring scheme, bringing together the results from several different schemes, including, naturally, banding. In broad terms, we know from the Breeding Bird Survey that Song Thrush numbers have declined and by how much. We know from the Nest Record Scheme that they still lay the same number of eggs, have the same number of broods, and fledge the same number of young as they always did. We know from banding that adult mortality remains broadly the same, but crucially we also know from banding that mortality in the first six months of life increased during the period of decline. Feeding the numbers into population models shows that this increased juvenile mortality can explain the bulk of the population decline, allowing detailed research to be undertaken on just what is happening to juveniles. These are the examples I give when I am on occasion asked what the purpose is of continuing to band species that have been banded for years and whether we haven't banded enough already. Peter Wilkinson Herts, England Bander since 1963 archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: final comments From: Ellen Paul <ellen.paul AT VERIZON.NET> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 16:59:06 -0500 As the daughter of a survivor, I was absolutely aghast at Marlene Condon's comparison, and her apology accomplished nothing in my eyes because anyone who can make such a statement has demonstrated that they have exceedingly poor judgment of the infamous sort exhibited by PETA: Ingrid Newkirk , the president of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), has herself made the comparison unambiguously, saying: "Six million Jews died in concentration camps , but six billion broiler chickens will die this year in slaughterhouses." Apologies from people with such poor judgment are meaningless to me. Now, at the risk of starting a quarrel with people and an organization I admire very much, I am aghast that The Wildlife Society, which has had its own share of trouble from uninformed animal rights individuals and organizations, would publish a piece like this and I am writing a letter to the editor and would welcome co-signers. Granted, this is not the peer-reviewed journal published by that esteemed society, but it is not appropriate to publish a piece like this in a scientific publication - PERIOD. Ms. Condon relies on logic, not science, to make her argument. She makes no mention of the weight of the bands in the absolute or relative to the weight (actually, mass) of the bird. I was particularly disturbed by Ms. Condon's disingenuous claim about the Refsnider paper. She ignores the fact that she mis-cited it and proceeds to malign the journal. What also bothers me is her comparison of bird banding to the killing of two Whimbrels: 4) Empathy (the ability to identify with and understand another’s situation and feelings) tells you that birds are absolutely terrified when handled by humans (their natural enemies, as witnessed this fall by the hunting in the Lesser Antilles that killed 2 whimbrels being tracked). It’s logical then, to conclude that banders are inflicting severe stress—and thus physical harm—upon the creatures they profess to care about. There is actually nothing logical in this paragraph. Humans are not the natural enemies of birds. Birds, like all animals, have a negative reaction to predation and fear being caught by anything. That does not mean that the short-term capture and handling of birds by banders entails severe distress and physical harm. But in any case, we don't measure those things by logic or illogic. We measure it scientifically. For instance, by corticosteroid levels. By the length of time it takes for the bird to resume its normal behaviors. By breeding success. By return rates. We have data on all these things. We don't make assumptions. Scientists make observations, develop hypotheses, and test those hypotheses. And that is why it is so appalling that a scientific society chose to publish this drivel. Anyone interested in signing on to my letter please contact me directly. Ellen Paul (speaking individually and not on behalf of the organization that pays my salary) archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: FW: [BIRDBAND] final comments From: Derek J Matthews <Derek.J.Matthews AT SPECTRUM-CANADA.COM> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 13:06:17 -0800 Hi Guys, I've tried to stay out of this but isn't BIRDBAND supposed to be for banders? I thought its whole purpose was to provide a private forum where banders and ringers from around the world could share and exchange ideas and information My question is simple - What is this lady doing on the group? She's obviously not a bander so why does she have access to it and why has she been allowed to post? Cheers. Derek Derek Matthews Vancouver Avian Research Centre Vancouver, BC, Canada -----Original Message----- From: Bird Bander's Forum [mailto:BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of James Cracknell Sent: November-07-11 12:49 PM To: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDBAND] final comments On 7 November 2011 16:43, Anya Illes wrote: > I am INCENSED that Ms. Condon dares to compare banding birds to the > attempted genocide of an entire people. > And then retreats, disingenuously claiming that she is the unemotional, > respectful one. > > Anya Thank you and I can't even begin to imagine the pain Ms Condon's views have caused. Ms Condon has now shown her true colours and nailed them firmly to the mast. I do hope such a individual with bigoted views either leaves this group or the moderators ban her now. BIRDBAND was built on a scientific foundation it is a shame that it has now turned into abuse and she shows her lack of empathy. She said her analogy was "poor" - in my own opinion "poor" doesn't even touch it. I don't think these people realise the fallout that still goes on today from the horrors of Word War II. My grandfather and others in his generation who liberated these camps suffered what we now call post-traumatic stress syndrome and though it didn't happen in my family it is well documented that others have experienced generations of physical and emotional abuse and it is only now in some cases that we are starting to clear things up. My father tells me that my grandfather was so respectful that he only talked about the war and what he witnessed when he knew he was dying as he needed the release. Having visited the camps myself and seen what they did to the those who were Jewish and Poles, Roma, Sini, Soviet Prisoners of War and tens of thousands people of other faiths, nationalities or gay men is life changing. I am however going to use her email as a teaching aid. At the moment I have been teaching students how to look at the underhand tactics of individuals and organisations on the Internet who hold these views and the lengths that they go to coerce others into having the same belief. At least children understand that using references to Nazi Germany or other atrocities/disasters is totally unacceptable. Kind regards James archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: final comments From: James Cracknell <james AT JCRACKNELL.CO.UK> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 20:48:36 +0000 On 7 November 2011 16:43, Anya Illes wrote: > I am INCENSED that Ms. Condon dares to compare banding birds to the > attempted genocide of an entire people. > And then retreats, disingenuously claiming that she is the unemotional, > respectful one. > > Anya Thank you and I can't even begin to imagine the pain Ms Condon's views have caused. Ms Condon has now shown her true colours and nailed them firmly to the mast. I do hope such a individual with bigoted views either leaves this group or the moderators ban her now. BIRDBAND was built on a scientific foundation it is a shame that it has now turned into abuse and she shows her lack of empathy. She said her analogy was "poor" - in my own opinion "poor" doesn't even touch it. I don't think these people realise the fallout that still goes on today from the horrors of Word War II. My grandfather and others in his generation who liberated these camps suffered what we now call post-traumatic stress syndrome and though it didn't happen in my family it is well documented that others have experienced generations of physical and emotional abuse and it is only now in some cases that we are starting to clear things up. My father tells me that my grandfather was so respectful that he only talked about the war and what he witnessed when he knew he was dying as he needed the release. Having visited the camps myself and seen what they did to the those who were Jewish and Poles, Roma, Sini, Soviet Prisoners of War and tens of thousands people of other faiths, nationalities or gay men is life changing. I am however going to use her email as a teaching aid. At the moment I have been teaching students how to look at the underhand tactics of individuals and organisations on the Internet who hold these views and the lengths that they go to coerce others into having the same belief. At least children understand that using references to Nazi Germany or other atrocities/disasters is totally unacceptable. Kind regards James archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: final comments From: Marlene Condon <MARLENECONDON AT AOL.COM> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 15:45:34 -0500 Thank you, Juan, for writing in such a kind manner. People can't always agree about things, but I've never understood why they can't disagree in an agreeable manner. Sincerely, Marlene In a message dated 11/7/2011 2:40:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jcwarbler AT YAHOO.ES writes: My written English is not so good, but I want to say about yo Marlene, My written English is not so good, but I want to say about your messages: 1) You are talking, writing and critiquing an activity that you, personally, do not know enough... 2) I think that is not possible for you to feel the fear of a bird looking into its eyes... I will never understand that comment... You are humanizing a bird (amazing!)... 3) You do not like that a little bird wears a ring/band on its leg, because that "extra" weight not allowed travel in good condition... Is this also a "feeling" or have you personally band thousands of birds? Have you read hundreds of studies talking about this? I never will write on astrology, poker, or Australian white worms, simply because I do not know about it nor have I studied... I have met many people in Spain, where I lived most of my life, thought and spoke like you, about banding... Most of them have changed their way of seeing things when they come with me and my colleagues to band... Please visit banding stations and knows this activity... And also, please stop to see "fear" where you can not see it, and treat animals like animals, not like persons... It's just a personal tip... With the best wishes from Venezuela, Juan Carlos ====================== J.C. Fernández-Ordóńez San Carlos (Venezuela) jcwarbler AT yahoo.es El 07/11/11 12:11, Marlene Condon escribió: > > Dear Anya, > > I honestly did not mean to imply that banding is akin to concentration > camps. I apologize if that was a poor analogy. > > My point was that people can certainly comment on things even if they have > not personally experienced them, but have read about them. > > Sincerely, > Marlene > > In a message dated 11/7/2011 11:29:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > ailles AT u.washington.edu writes: > > Dear Marelne, > And by invoking CONCENTRATION CAMPS as an analogy to bird banding, from > my perspective you have now COMPLETELY failed to maintain yourself as an > "unemotional" and respected voice in this debate. > > I had compiled a respectful, unemotional reply to your letter that > invoked fact in the spirit of debate. It's in the trash now. > How dare you. > > Signed, > A JEWISH Bander Who Lost Many Relatives in Auschwitz and Whose Life Has > Been Affected In Myriad of Other Ways by Hitler Ever Since, > Anya Illes > > __________________________________________________ > > Anya E. Illes > > > On 11/7/2011 10:20 AM, Marlene Condon wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> In response to Charlie, I'm not brave at all. Because there were things >> being said on this site about my article which was not published in its >> original form, I felt I should try to briefly convey my original > thoughts. As >> it was, I feared my post was too long for the listserv, so please >> understand that I was trying to keep my comments to a minimum and > couldn't delve >> deeply into ecological principles, etc. >> >> I'm disappointed that some of the replies to my clarification are > strictly >> emotional, attacking me personally instead of making a factual case for >> the bander's point of view, as well as accusing me of things that are not >> true. >> >> For example, Scott writes "I'm sorry, but I find it astonishing that >> someone who admits that they [sic] 'did visit a bird banding station > once' - and >> apparently only once - would take it on herself to condemn a century's >> worth of banding research out of hand." >> >> It's not true that I have ever condemned 100 years' worth of banding >> research. My point is that it might be time to reconsider how much > banding is >> done NOW. >> >> Additionally, to condemn me for commenting on banding when I have only >> visited a station once is like saying I could never condemn what went on > at >> concentration camps because I have never visited one. There's plenty of >> literature on both subjects and studies HAVE shown that birds are > sometimes >> harmed by banding. >> >> I would have hoped for a more intellectual discussion here without so > much >> emotion. I wasn't talking politics! >> >> To those folks who have treated me with respect while disagreeing with > my >> views, you have my admiration as well as appreciation. >> >> >> Sincerely, >> Marlene >> >> Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) >> Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker >> Crozet, VA 22932-2204 >> E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com >> _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: Father of bird-banding From: Mara McDonald <mamcdona AT WISC.EDU> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 14:12:29 -0600 Oh, no! You're making a liar out of me! It was not intentional, either. I thought I got the info from BBL, but alas, I didn't (just checked--although they may have updated their site). I did find several possible references I might have used: See http://pwp.surfglobal.net/rmangile/Pigeons/LeonCole.html Wisconsin's Forgotten Ornithologist: Leon J. Cole Between 1902 and 1922, he wrote seven papers on bird banding alone. When bird banding gained stature in the field of scientific ornithology and its adherents formed an organization of devotees, Leon J. Cole became the president of the American Bird Banding Association. Thus, Dr. Cole is rightly regarded as the father of American bird banding. His academic life at Wisconsin forced him away from serious bird banding but not from his interest in birds. Through penetrating research he and his students produced an unparalleled insight into the genetics of the Columbidae. Hybridization of pigeons and ring doves was of particular importance. Here's Cole's paper: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4155031 Here's another link p 220 http://www.jstor.org/stable/4073884?seq=4 I was researching the Department of Genetics' history for its Centennial in 2010, when I ran into a reference to Cole as The Father of Bird Banding. Other than the first reference above, I'm not sure where else I may have picked it up. To be sure, if he's a father, it would be of American Bird Banding. You may want to correct me on that, too. I'm currently readying a journal club presentation on mobile genetic elements, and thus, cannot take much time to clean up my act or poor references or false assignations. Thank you for setting the record straight--I knew about Audubon, and also knew his efforts weren't too successful--I used Cole's "father" reference to justify putting up a poster on our banding efforts, just to nudge the lab types into knowing about.real research. :) Mara McDonald Madison WI On Nov 7, 2011, at 1:27 PM, Bill Mattox wrote: > Hello Mara! > A statement in your e-mail on that OTHER subject(!) interested me (re: L.J. > Cole). In talks about color banding and bird banding in general, I have > stated that, from my knowledge of the subject, the father of bird banding > was the Danish school-master H.C. Mortensen, known in Denmark as "Fugle" > (Birds) Mortensen, who placed lead (!) rings on starlings in 1890. The > banded starlings didn't fly very far (!), and Mortensen changed to steel or > aluminum shortly thereafter. He started using aluminum when he banded a > merganser, and, in 1899 banded 165 starlings with aluminum rings. Until his > death in 1921 Mortensen succeeded in banding some 6,000 birds (Mattox > 1970*). In Denmark, Mortensen was known as the father of modern > bird-ringing. > Any thoughts? When was L.J. Cole active? > Thanks. > > Bill Mattox > > * Mattox, W.G. 1970. Bird-banding in Greenland. Arctic 23(4): 217-228. > > > William G. Mattox, Ph.D. > President > Conservation Research Foundation > 8300 Gantz Avenue > Boise, ID 83709 > > (208) 362-3435 > > archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: final comments From: J.C. Fernández-Ordóńez <jcwarbler AT YAHOO.ES> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 19:40:01 +0000 My written English is not so good, but I want to say about yo Marlene, My written English is not so good, but I want to say about your messages: 1) You are talking, writing and critiquing an activity that you, personally, do not know enough... 2) I think that is not possible for you to feel the fear of a bird looking into its eyes... I will never understand that comment... You are humanizing a bird (amazing!)... 3) You do not like that a little bird wears a ring/band on its leg, because that "extra" weight  not allowed travel in good condition... Is this also a "feeling" or have you personally band thousands of birds? Have you read hundreds of studies talking about this? I never will write on astrology, poker, or Australian white worms, simply because I do not know about it nor have I studied... I have met many people in Spain, where I lived most of my life, thought and spoke like you, about banding... Most of them have changed their way of seeing things when they come with me and my colleagues to band... Please visit banding stations and knows this activity... And also, please stop to see "fear" where you can not see it, and treat animals like animals, not like persons... It's just a personal tip... With the best wishes from Venezuela, Juan Carlos ====================== J.C. Fernández-Ordóńez San Carlos (Venezuela) jcwarbler AT yahoo.es El 07/11/11 12:11, Marlene Condon escribió: > > Dear Anya, > > I honestly did not mean to imply that banding is akin to concentration > camps.  I apologize if that was a poor analogy. > > My point was that people can certainly comment on things even if they have > not personally experienced them, but have read about them. > > Sincerely, > Marlene > > In a message dated 11/7/2011 11:29:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > ailles AT u.washington.edu writes: > > Dear  Marelne, > And by invoking CONCENTRATION CAMPS as an analogy to bird banding,  from > my perspective you have now COMPLETELY failed to maintain yourself as  an > "unemotional" and respected voice in this debate. > > I had compiled  a respectful, unemotional reply to your letter that > invoked fact in the  spirit of debate. It's in the trash now. > How dare you. > > Signed, > A  JEWISH Bander Who Lost Many Relatives in Auschwitz and Whose Life Has > Been  Affected In Myriad of Other Ways by Hitler Ever Since, > Anya  Illes > > __________________________________________________ > > Anya E.  Illes > > > On 11/7/2011 10:20 AM, Marlene Condon wrote: >> Hi  all, >> >> In response to Charlie, I'm not brave at all.   Because there were  things >> being said on this site about my  article which was not published in its >> original form, I felt I should  try to briefly convey my original > thoughts.  As >> it was, I  feared my post was too long for the listserv, so  please >>   understand that I was trying to keep my comments to a minimum and > couldn't delve >> deeply into ecological principles, etc. >> >>   I'm disappointed that some of the replies to my clarification are > strictly >> emotional, attacking me personally instead of making a  factual case for >> the bander's point of view, as well as accusing me of  things that are not >> true. >> >> For example, Scott writes  "I'm sorry, but I find it astonishing that >> someone who admits that  they [sic] 'did visit a bird banding station > once' - and >>   apparently only once - would take it on herself to condemn a   century's >> worth of banding research out of hand." >> >> It's  not true that I have ever condemned 100 years' worth of  banding >>   research.  My point is that it might be time to reconsider how much > banding is >> done NOW. >> >> Additionally, to condemn me for  commenting on banding when I have only >> visited a station once is like  saying I could never condemn what went on >   at >> concentration camps  because I have never visited one.  There's  plenty of >>   literature on both subjects and studies HAVE shown that birds are > sometimes >> harmed by banding. >> >> I would have hoped for a  more intellectual discussion here without so > much >> emotion.  I  wasn't talking politics! >> >> To those folks who have treated me  with respect while disagreeing with > my >> views, you have my  admiration as well as appreciation. >> >> >> Sincerely, >>   Marlene >> >> Marlene A. Condon (Author,  The Nature-friendly  Garden, Stackpole Books) >> Naturalist and   Writer/Photographer/Speaker >> Crozet, VA 22932-2204 >>   E-mail:  MARLENECONDON AT aol.com >> _www.MARLENECONDON.com_  (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: final comments From: "CelticCail AT aol.com" <celticcail@AOL.COM> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 14:32:32 -0500 THANK YOU, Anya. My thoughts EXACTLY. Cailin O'Connor Fitzpatrick Bander-in-Charge Raccoon Ridge Bird Observatory Sandyston, NJ Dear Marelne, And by invoking CONCENTRATION CAMPS as an analogy to bird banding, from my perspective you have now COMPLETELY failed to maintain yourself as an "unemotional" and respected voice in this debate. I had compiled a respectful, unemotional reply to your letter that invoked fact in the spirit of debate. It's in the trash now. How dare you. Signed, A JEWISH Bander Who Lost Many Relatives in Auschwitz and Whose Life Has Been Affected In Myriad of Other Ways by Hitler Ever Since, Anya Illes -----Original Message----- From: Anya Illes To: BIRDBAND Sent: Mon, Nov 7, 2011 11:32 am Subject: Re: [BIRDBAND] final comments Dear Marelne, And by invoking CONCENTRATION CAMPS as an analogy to bird banding, from my perspective you have now COMPLETELY failed to maintain yourself as an "unemotional" and respected voice in this debate. I had compiled a respectful, unemotional reply to your letter that invoked fact in the spirit of debate. It's in the trash now. How dare you. Signed, A JEWISH Bander Who Lost Many Relatives in Auschwitz and Whose Life Has Been Affected In Myriad of Other Ways by Hitler Ever Since, Anya Illes __________________________________________________ Anya E. Illes On 11/7/2011 10:20 AM, Marlene Condon wrote: > Hi all, > > In response to Charlie, I'm not brave at all. Because there were things > being said on this site about my article which was not published in its > original form, I felt I should try to briefly convey my original thoughts. As > it was, I feared my post was too long for the listserv, so please > understand that I was trying to keep my comments to a minimum and couldn't delve > deeply into ecological principles, etc. > > I'm disappointed that some of the replies to my clarification are strictly > emotional, attacking me personally instead of making a factual case for > the bander's point of view, as well as accusing me of things that are not > true. > > For example, Scott writes "I'm sorry, but I find it astonishing that > someone who admits that they [sic] 'did visit a bird banding station once' - and > apparently only once - would take it on herself to condemn a century's > worth of banding research out of hand." > > It's not true that I have ever condemned 100 years' worth of banding > research. My point is that it might be time to reconsider how much banding is > done NOW. > > Additionally, to condemn me for commenting on banding when I have only > visited a station once is like saying I could never condemn what went on at > concentration camps because I have never visited one. There's plenty of > literature on both subjects and studies HAVE shown that birds are sometimes > harmed by banding. > > I would have hoped for a more intellectual discussion here without so much > emotion. I wasn't talking politics! > > To those folks who have treated me with respect while disagreeing with my > views, you have my admiration as well as appreciation. > > > Sincerely, > Marlene > > Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) > Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker > Crozet, VA 22932-2204 > E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com > _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: final comments From: Anya Illes <ailles AT U.WASHINGTON.EDU> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 10:43:34 -0600 I am INCENSED that Ms. Condon dares to compare banding birds to the attempted genocide of an entire people. And then retreats, disingenuously claiming that she is the unemotional, respectful one. __________________________________________________ Anya E. Illes On 11/7/2011 10:20 AM, Marlene Condon wrote: > Hi all, > > In response to Charlie, I'm not brave at all. Because there were things > being said on this site about my article which was not published in its > original form, I felt I should try to briefly convey my original thoughts. As > it was, I feared my post was too long for the listserv, so please > understand that I was trying to keep my comments to a minimum and couldn't delve > deeply into ecological principles, etc. > > I'm disappointed that some of the replies to my clarification are strictly > emotional, attacking me personally instead of making a factual case for > the bander's point of view, as well as accusing me of things that are not > true. > > For example, Scott writes "I'm sorry, but I find it astonishing that > someone who admits that they [sic] 'did visit a bird banding station once' - and > apparently only once - would take it on herself to condemn a century's > worth of banding research out of hand." > > It's not true that I have ever condemned 100 years' worth of banding > research. My point is that it might be time to reconsider how much banding is > done NOW. > > Additionally, to condemn me for commenting on banding when I have only > visited a station once is like saying I could never condemn what went on at > concentration camps because I have never visited one. There's plenty of > literature on both subjects and studies HAVE shown that birds are sometimes > harmed by banding. > > I would have hoped for a more intellectual discussion here without so much > emotion. I wasn't talking politics! > > To those folks who have treated me with respect while disagreeing with my > views, you have my admiration as well as appreciation. > > > Sincerely, > Marlene > > Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) > Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker > Crozet, VA 22932-2204 > E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com > _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: final comments From: Marlene Condon <MARLENECONDON AT AOL.COM> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:41:01 -0500 Dear Anya, I honestly did not mean to imply that banding is akin to concentration camps. I apologize if that was a poor analogy. My point was that people can certainly comment on things even if they have not personally experienced them, but have read about them. Sincerely, Marlene In a message dated 11/7/2011 11:29:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ailles AT u.washington.edu writes: Dear Marelne, And by invoking CONCENTRATION CAMPS as an analogy to bird banding, from my perspective you have now COMPLETELY failed to maintain yourself as an "unemotional" and respected voice in this debate. I had compiled a respectful, unemotional reply to your letter that invoked fact in the spirit of debate. It's in the trash now. How dare you. Signed, A JEWISH Bander Who Lost Many Relatives in Auschwitz and Whose Life Has Been Affected In Myriad of Other Ways by Hitler Ever Since, Anya Illes __________________________________________________ Anya E. Illes On 11/7/2011 10:20 AM, Marlene Condon wrote: > Hi all, > > In response to Charlie, I'm not brave at all. Because there were things > being said on this site about my article which was not published in its > original form, I felt I should try to briefly convey my original thoughts. As > it was, I feared my post was too long for the listserv, so please > understand that I was trying to keep my comments to a minimum and couldn't delve > deeply into ecological principles, etc. > > I'm disappointed that some of the replies to my clarification are strictly > emotional, attacking me personally instead of making a factual case for > the bander's point of view, as well as accusing me of things that are not > true. > > For example, Scott writes "I'm sorry, but I find it astonishing that > someone who admits that they [sic] 'did visit a bird banding station once' - and > apparently only once - would take it on herself to condemn a century's > worth of banding research out of hand." > > It's not true that I have ever condemned 100 years' worth of banding > research. My point is that it might be time to reconsider how much banding is > done NOW. > > Additionally, to condemn me for commenting on banding when I have only > visited a station once is like saying I could never condemn what went on at > concentration camps because I have never visited one. There's plenty of > literature on both subjects and studies HAVE shown that birds are sometimes > harmed by banding. > > I would have hoped for a more intellectual discussion here without so much > emotion. I wasn't talking politics! > > To those folks who have treated me with respect while disagreeing with my > views, you have my admiration as well as appreciation. > > > Sincerely, > Marlene > > Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) > Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker > Crozet, VA 22932-2204 > E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com > _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: final comments From: Anya Illes <ailles AT U.WASHINGTON.EDU> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 10:29:04 -0600 Dear Marelne, And by invoking CONCENTRATION CAMPS as an analogy to bird banding, from my perspective you have now COMPLETELY failed to maintain yourself as an "unemotional" and respected voice in this debate. I had compiled a respectful, unemotional reply to your letter that invoked fact in the spirit of debate. It's in the trash now. How dare you. Signed, A JEWISH Bander Who Lost Many Relatives in Auschwitz and Whose Life Has Been Affected In Myriad of Other Ways by Hitler Ever Since, Anya Illes __________________________________________________ Anya E. Illes On 11/7/2011 10:20 AM, Marlene Condon wrote: > Hi all, > > In response to Charlie, I'm not brave at all. Because there were things > being said on this site about my article which was not published in its > original form, I felt I should try to briefly convey my original thoughts. As > it was, I feared my post was too long for the listserv, so please > understand that I was trying to keep my comments to a minimum and couldn't delve > deeply into ecological principles, etc. > > I'm disappointed that some of the replies to my clarification are strictly > emotional, attacking me personally instead of making a factual case for > the bander's point of view, as well as accusing me of things that are not > true. > > For example, Scott writes "I'm sorry, but I find it astonishing that > someone who admits that they [sic] 'did visit a bird banding station once' - and > apparently only once - would take it on herself to condemn a century's > worth of banding research out of hand." > > It's not true that I have ever condemned 100 years' worth of banding > research. My point is that it might be time to reconsider how much banding is > done NOW. > > Additionally, to condemn me for commenting on banding when I have only > visited a station once is like saying I could never condemn what went on at > concentration camps because I have never visited one. There's plenty of > literature on both subjects and studies HAVE shown that birds are sometimes > harmed by banding. > > I would have hoped for a more intellectual discussion here without so much > emotion. I wasn't talking politics! > > To those folks who have treated me with respect while disagreeing with my > views, you have my admiration as well as appreciation. > > > Sincerely, > Marlene > > Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) > Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker > Crozet, VA 22932-2204 > E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com > _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: final comments From: Marlene Condon <MARLENECONDON AT AOL.COM> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:20:56 -0500 Hi all, In response to Charlie, I'm not brave at all. Because there were things being said on this site about my article which was not published in its original form, I felt I should try to briefly convey my original thoughts. As it was, I feared my post was too long for the listserv, so please understand that I was trying to keep my comments to a minimum and couldn't delve deeply into ecological principles, etc. I'm disappointed that some of the replies to my clarification are strictly emotional, attacking me personally instead of making a factual case for the bander's point of view, as well as accusing me of things that are not true. For example, Scott writes "I'm sorry, but I find it astonishing that someone who admits that they [sic] 'did visit a bird banding station once' - and apparently only once - would take it on herself to condemn a century's worth of banding research out of hand." It's not true that I have ever condemned 100 years' worth of banding research. My point is that it might be time to reconsider how much banding is done NOW. Additionally, to condemn me for commenting on banding when I have only visited a station once is like saying I could never condemn what went on at concentration camps because I have never visited one. There's plenty of literature on both subjects and studies HAVE shown that birds are sometimes harmed by banding. I would have hoped for a more intellectual discussion here without so much emotion. I wasn't talking politics! To those folks who have treated me with respect while disagreeing with my views, you have my admiration as well as appreciation. Sincerely, Marlene Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker Crozet, VA 22932-2204 E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: thanks to all who wrote following my article clarification From: Charlie <cmmbirds AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:58:45 -0800 You sure were brave to walk into the room of a bunch of peopl Marlene, You sure were brave to walk into the room of a bunch of people who share a passion for something, then use a fact-free attack on what they do.  I have two points for you to consider: I wonder how anyone can read "intense fear" - or any other emotion - in the face of a bird?  Unlike humans, most birds do not communicate via facial expressions.  Did you interpret their feather fluff, body posture, tail wag or calls? For those are the methods birds use to communicate. Your statement "using logic can and should  suffice.  A study shouldn't be necessary to declare an area prime habitat  for wildlife if people already know what comprises prime habitat and what  species it supports." shows a certain lack of understanding of the entire science of ecology.  For one, we do NOT always know what "pristine" habitat is, for most habitat types.  For another, we cannot simply use logic to determine what to do with habitat.  Logic told us to suppress fire for many decades, and now we are paying the price with loss of fire-dependent species and ecosystems (e.g. Longleaf and Table Mountain Pine), and giant conflagrations that are far more damaging to nature and harmful to people.  Logic told us to plant privet, because it makes lots of berries.  Now we spend many thousands of dollars every year trying to get rid of the stuff.  Logic told us to plant thin rows of pines in the middle of big fields to make "edge" habitat.  Now we see that this hurts grassland birds without truly benefiting the "edge species" or the forest species.  Banding is one way we have learned all this. I use banding to document the change of populations as we restore native grasslands.  Although many of us *believe* that this work will greatly benefit birds, surprisingly little work has been done to actually document the changes over time of these efforts.  And it is important to do so, because these efforts take a great deal of time, money and other resources.  If they don't help, then we need to stop doing it.  Of course, I expect that in the end my data will back up the methods - or possibly lead us to change some of them.  As for other methods of studying the birds, yes, they are also important.  But they cannot tell us some rather important details, such as ratios of age and sex classifications, which are very important when monitoring a species.  As an example of this, the fact that Bald Eagles are easy to age from a distance helped us to learn the way that DDT harmed birds.  We noticed that certain birds were disappearing - Peregrine Falcon, Brown Pelican, etc.  But we weren't finding carcasses.  Nothing seemed to be killing them.  Then people realized that ALL the eagles they saw had white heads and tails.  No young?  That led to studies on reproduction, and discovery of the egg shell problem.  That is great.  But we cannot age most species unless they are in the hand.   There really are a lot of reasons banding needs to continue.  Maybe you need to make a 2nd trip (an more) to a banding station and become better informed.  You are welcome to visit either of my stations in Georgia any time you want.  They run year-round.  Just email me. Sincerely, Charlie Muise Lamar County, GA ________________________________ From: Marlene Condon To: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:28 PM Subject: [BIRDBAND] thanks to all who wrote following my article clarification Hi, I would like to thank everyone who wrote to explain where they are "coming  from".  I don't want to get into a running discussion on the listserv, but  I would like to make a couple of more points, please. I'm not sure, but I expect that Warbling Vireos do not need to travel over  a large body of water to leave and return to California.  My main concern  is for the migratory birds that need, for example, to cross the Gulf of  Mexico.  These birds are flying a marathon of sorts which they have bulked  up for.  If they start on their journey and then lose weight at a banding  station, are they programmed to take the time to try to bulk up again in  unfamiliar territory?  If they are, could the delay be  detrimental?  And with today's limited habitat, is there enough food to  feed hundreds or thousands of birds on the move? I do realize that much important information has come from banding, but it  seems to me that much of the information gained these days could be figured out  without banding.  For example, a newly restored prairie presumably  signifies the return to original habitat, so it should be expected that it wou ld  host a higher species diversity of birds than adjacent old fields that I  assume consist of plants not native to prairies.  I realize that  everyone seems to insist upon studies to come to conclusions and to make  decisions nowadays, but in many cases, using logic can and should  suffice.  A study shouldn't be necessary to declare an area prime habitat  for wildlife if people already know what comprises prime habitat and what  species it supports. I did visit a banding station once and I did not possess  any preconceived notions about it.  I'm sure I thought it would  be interesting.  But when I saw the intense fear in the eyes of the birds  being handled, I had to leave.  A good friend who had gone there with me  was shocked because he had always found my scientific manner of looking at life  to be non-emotional.  He said he realized that day that I had a  heart.  I've always had a heart, but it doesn't rule my brain.  Intellectually  I feel that if banding could be harmful--and it's not clear to me that anyone  has truly proven it isn't--then perhaps the amount of it done should be, at the  least, minimized.  We certainly are in an ecological crisis  (I'm about to start writing a book about it) and that is exactly why I would  hope that the people who already understand this  situation would rethink the amount of banding that continues to  be done.  We can't afford to add to the pressures our wildlife is  already struggling with. Thanks so much for your consideration of my thoughts.  I do  appreciate it. Sincerely, Marlene Marlene A. Condon (Author,  The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) Naturalist and  Writer/Photographer/Speaker Crozet, VA 22932-2204 E-mail:  MARLENECONDON AT aol.com _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Metro Beach banding report - fall 2011 season finale From: Allen Chartier <amazilia3 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 21:50:32 -0500 Birders and Banders, I have updated my blog with results, highlights, and photos from one banding session conducted on Friday November 4, at Metro Beach Metropark, Macomb Co., Michigan (42*34'29.9"N, 82*48'31.5"W). Photo highlights for the day, plus a brief summary of the fall season. Check out my blog at: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/ -- Allen T. Chartier Inkster, Michigan Email: amazilia3 AT gmail.com Website: www.amazilia.net Blog: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/ archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: thanks to all who wrote following my article clarification From: "Bill Hilton Jr. (RESEARCH)" <research AT HILTONPOND.ORG> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 20:33:31 -0500 To reinforce Scott's comments, for several years I actually kept track of hummers feeding in-hand both pre- and post-banding. About 98% of the Ruby-throated Hummingbirds (RTHU) banded in those years took sugar water while held gently between thumb and fingers. Furthermore, these birds often did hand-feeding in the presence of groups of people who had big eyes and camera lenses. Interestingly, when I band RTHU in the Neotropics I have similar success with hand feeding. Some of the hummers literally dive into a plastic feeder adorned with a fake plastic flower. I suspect those particular RTHU already know what a feeder is from their months on the breeding grounds in North America. To further support my belief as a bander that RTHU are neither stressed nor harmed by the banding experience, I--like some other hummer banders--have had the same hummingbird return to a banding station (Hilton Pond) six years in a row AND get recaptured in the very same trap. They ain't dumb; they know where the food is and they learn being trapped and handled isn't a problem. (Need I mention those RTHU that are true trap junkies that enter traps and are handled day after day after day, year after year after year?) Like all responsible banders I carefully monitor the welfare of birds while in-hand, and I'll be darned if after 30 years of experience I can see that "intense fear in the eyes of the birds being handled" that Marlene Condon claims to have observed on her one visit to a banding station. Even my high school biology students would not have been so anthropomorphic. Lastly, Marlene and other anti-banders just never seem to understand that laboratory and field researchers alike care deeply about their study species and--in the case of banders--are not going to do things to birds that detract from our chances of collecting useful data about migration, longevity, site fidelity, and other population dynamics. Yes, we do intrude upon nature and briefly borrow birds from the wild, but the trade-offs are worthwhile--as a century of banding results will attest. BILL On Nov 6, 2011, at 4:36 PM, Scott Weidensaul wrote: > I'm sorry, but I find it astonishing that someone who admits that they "did visit a bird banding station once" - and apparently only once - would take it on herself to condemn a century's worth of banding research out of hand. (And only slightly less astonishing that a professional journal would publish such a poorly referenced and logically weak attack.) > > While I don't doubt that banding is an unpleasant experience for most captured birds, I'm not prepared to assume it is the deeply traumatic experience Ms. Condon believes it to be. For example, virtually every hummingbird I band will greedily drink from a feeder while being held, which hardly seems like the behavior of a terrified creature. > > The fact is, birds are not little people, nor are they little automatons; they do not react to the world as we do, and projecting our assumptions onto them - which is basically all Ms. Condon has done - serves little purpose. > > And as someone who does band trans-Gulf passerine migrants, let me point out just one of many, many possible examples of why banding is critically important to migratory bird conservation. Banding has shown that northbound trans-Gulf migrants are selecting habitat based on suitability, not availability, and that birds in suitable habitat regain mass more quickly than those in marginal habitat (Moore et al. 1990, "Stopover on a Gulf Coast barrier island by spring trans-Gulf migrants," and other papers). Such research has shown that the habitat best protected along the Gulf Coast (barrier islands, dunes and pine forests) is less valuable than hardwood cheniers, which are being chewed up by development. > > How do we know this? Banding. > > Scott Weidensaul > Schuylkill Haven, PA USA > > > > > On Nov 6, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Marlene Condon wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I would like to thank everyone who wrote to explain where they are "coming >> from". I don't want to get into a running discussion on the listserv, but >> I would like to make a couple of more points, please. >> >> I'm not sure, but I expect that Warbling Vireos do not need to travel over >> a large body of water to leave and return to California. My main concern >> is for the migratory birds that need, for example, to cross the Gulf of >> Mexico. These birds are flying a marathon of sorts which they have bulked up >> for. If they start on their journey and then lose weight at a banding >> station, are they programmed to take the time to try to bulk up again in >> unfamiliar territory? If they are, could the delay be detrimental? And with >> today's limited habitat, is there enough food to feed hundreds or thousands >> of birds on the move? >> >> I do realize that much important information has come from banding, but it >> seems to me that much of the information gained these days could be figured >> out without banding. For example, a newly restored prairie presumably >> signifies the return to original habitat, so it should be expected that it wou >> ld host a higher species diversity of birds than adjacent old fields that >> I assume consist of plants not native to prairies. I realize that >> everyone seems to insist upon studies to come to conclusions and to make decisions >> nowadays, but in many cases, using logic can and should suffice. A study >> shouldn't be necessary to declare an area prime habitat for wildlife if >> people already know what comprises prime habitat and what species it supports. >> >> >> I did visit a banding station once and I did not possess any preconceived >> notions about it. I'm sure I thought it would be interesting. But when I >> saw the intense fear in the eyes of the birds being handled, I had to >> leave. A good friend who had gone there with me was shocked because he had >> always found my scientific manner of looking at life to be non-emotional. He >> said he realized that day that I had a heart. >> >> I've always had a heart, but it doesn't rule my brain. Intellectually I >> feel that if banding could be harmful--and it's not clear to me that anyone >> has truly proven it isn't--then perhaps the amount of it done should be, at >> the least, minimized. We certainly are in an ecological crisis (I'm >> about to start writing a book about it) and that is exactly why I would hope >> that the people who already understand this situation would rethink the >> amount of banding that continues to be done. We can't afford to add to the >> pressures our wildlife is already struggling with. >> >> Thanks so much for your consideration of my thoughts. I do appreciate it. >> >> Sincerely, >> Marlene >> >> Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) >> Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker >> Crozet, VA 22932-2204 >> E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com >> _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) >> >> archives and subscription options can be found at: >> http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html ========= RESEARCH PROGRAM c/o BILL HILTON JR. Executive Director Hilton Pond Center for Piedmont Natural History 1432 DeVinney Road, York, South Carolina 29745 USA office & cell (803) 684-5852 fax (803) 684-0255 Please visit our web sites (courtesy of Comporium.net): Hilton Pond Center for Piedmont Natural History at http://www.hiltonpond.org "Operation RubyThroat: The Hummingbird Project" at http://www.rubythroat.org ================== archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: thanks to all who wrote following my article clarification From: Mara McDonald <mamcdona AT WISC.EDU> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:25:37 -0600 Marlene, Allow me a correction or two. One of our findings with migrant species that come through in the fall is that we do have recaptures, suggesting that intermediate habitats are important for migrants to stop and fatten up. If you follow the Whooping Crane migrations, you know it takes quite a while for them to make it from Wisconsin to Florida, because they stop multiple times for respites along the way, respites that take days or weeks. Another issue you seem naive about is restoration ecology and habitat succession, which includes not only plants, but all the animals and microbes within the habitat. Stan Temple, a well known ornithologist and wildlife ecologist, actually thought there would not be a higher bird diversity in the prairies than old fields. Our banding data suggest otherwise, and suggest that bird species come in slowly or quickly, depending on a number of factors. The focus of our work is how restoration affects bird communities, and we have seen that as the prairies succeed over time, so do the bird communities. From your statement, it sounds as if you didn't expect that result. Our work contributes to the determination of the best restoration methods that will enhance bird communities, how small the patch, how qualitative the restoration, what kind of birds will come in when. BTW, we also do census work when we have a student wanting a project, and the census brings in other information, although the general trends are the same. One major goal of our station is education, for on-campus people and the public. I have found many of the natural sciences are being lost on campuses, although Wisconsin had Aldo Leopold, John Muir, and many others in conservation. Our outreach efforts are as important as our banding efforts. I can't tell you how very important it is to train students and the public about natural sciences. We are an all volunteer operation, and our volunteers are amazing! They are dedicated and hard working, and they contribute largely to the success of our Bird Observatory. I doubt you will win over many folks who do band. I suggest you investigate what is known about how banding affects birds by looking into the scientific literature. Mara McDonald,Ph.D. Biocore Prairie Bird Observatory UW-Madison On Nov 6, 2011, at 2:28 PM, Marlene Condon wrote: > Hi, > > I would like to thank everyone who wrote to explain where they are "coming > from". I don't want to get into a running discussion on the listserv, but > I would like to make a couple of more points, please. > > I'm not sure, but I expect that Warbling Vireos do not need to travel over > a large body of water to leave and return to California. My main concern > is for the migratory birds that need, for example, to cross the Gulf of > Mexico. These birds are flying a marathon of sorts which they have bulked up > for. If they start on their journey and then lose weight at a banding > station, are they programmed to take the time to try to bulk up again in > unfamiliar territory? If they are, could the delay be detrimental? And with > today's limited habitat, is there enough food to feed hundreds or thousands > of birds on the move? > > I do realize that much important information has come from banding, but it > seems to me that much of the information gained these days could be figured > out without banding. For example, a newly restored prairie presumably > signifies the return to original habitat, so it should be expected that it wou > ld host a higher species diversity of birds than adjacent old fields that > I assume consist of plants not native to prairies. I realize that > everyone seems to insist upon studies to come to conclusions and to make decisions > nowadays, but in many cases, using logic can and should suffice. A study > shouldn't be necessary to declare an area prime habitat for wildlife if > people already know what comprises prime habitat and what species it supports. > > > I did visit a banding station once and I did not possess any preconceived > notions about it. I'm sure I thought it would be interesting. But when I > saw the intense fear in the eyes of the birds being handled, I had to > leave. A good friend who had gone there with me was shocked because he had > always found my scientific manner of looking at life to be non-emotional. He > said he realized that day that I had a heart. > > I've always had a heart, but it doesn't rule my brain. Intellectually I > feel that if banding could be harmful--and it's not clear to me that anyone > has truly proven it isn't--then perhaps the amount of it done should be, at > the least, minimized. We certainly are in an ecological crisis (I'm > about to start writing a book about it) and that is exactly why I would hope > that the people who already understand this situation would rethink the > amount of banding that continues to be done. We can't afford to add to the > pressures our wildlife is already struggling with. > > Thanks so much for your consideration of my thoughts. I do appreciate it. > > Sincerely, > Marlene > > Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) > Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker > Crozet, VA 22932-2204 > E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com > _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: thanks to all who wrote following my article clarification From: Scott Weidensaul <scottweidensaul AT VERIZON.NET> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 16:36:11 -0500 I'm sorry, but I find it astonishing that someone who admits that they "did visit a bird banding station once" - and apparently only once - would take it on herself to condemn a century's worth of banding research out of hand. (And only slightly less astonishing that a professional journal would publish such a poorly referenced and logically weak attack.) While I don't doubt that banding is an unpleasant experience for most captured birds, I'm not prepared to assume it is the deeply traumatic experience Ms. Condon believes it to be. For example, virtually every hummingbird I band will greedily drink from a feeder while being held, which hardly seems like the behavior of a terrified creature. The fact is, birds are not little people, nor are they little automatons; they do not react to the world as we do, and projecting our assumptions onto them - which is basically all Ms. Condon has done - serves little purpose. And as someone who does band trans-Gulf passerine migrants, let me point out just one of many, many possible examples of why banding is critically important to migratory bird conservation. Banding has shown that northbound trans-Gulf migrants are selecting habitat based on suitability, not availability, and that birds in suitable habitat regain mass more quickly than those in marginal habitat (Moore et al. 1990, "Stopover on a Gulf Coast barrier island by spring trans-Gulf migrants," and other papers). Such research has shown that the habitat best protected along the Gulf Coast (barrier islands, dunes and pine forests) is less valuable than hardwood cheniers, which are being chewed up by development. How do we know this? Banding. Scott Weidensaul Schuylkill Haven, PA USA On Nov 6, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Marlene Condon wrote: > Hi, > > I would like to thank everyone who wrote to explain where they are > "coming > from". I don't want to get into a running discussion on the > listserv, but > I would like to make a couple of more points, please. > > I'm not sure, but I expect that Warbling Vireos do not need to > travel over > a large body of water to leave and return to California. My main > concern > is for the migratory birds that need, for example, to cross the Gulf > of > Mexico. These birds are flying a marathon of sorts which they have > bulked up > for. If they start on their journey and then lose weight at a banding > station, are they programmed to take the time to try to bulk up > again in > unfamiliar territory? If they are, could the delay be > detrimental? And with > today's limited habitat, is there enough food to feed hundreds or > thousands > of birds on the move? > > I do realize that much important information has come from banding, > but it > seems to me that much of the information gained these days could be > figured > out without banding. For example, a newly restored prairie > presumably > signifies the return to original habitat, so it should be expected > that it wou > ld host a higher species diversity of birds than adjacent old > fields that > I assume consist of plants not native to prairies. I realize that > everyone seems to insist upon studies to come to conclusions and to > make decisions > nowadays, but in many cases, using logic can and should suffice. A > study > shouldn't be necessary to declare an area prime habitat for > wildlife if > people already know what comprises prime habitat and what species > it supports. > > > I did visit a banding station once and I did not possess any > preconceived > notions about it. I'm sure I thought it would be interesting. But > when I > saw the intense fear in the eyes of the birds being handled, I had to > leave. A good friend who had gone there with me was shocked > because he had > always found my scientific manner of looking at life to be non- > emotional. He > said he realized that day that I had a heart. > > I've always had a heart, but it doesn't rule my brain. > Intellectually I > feel that if banding could be harmful--and it's not clear to me that > anyone > has truly proven it isn't--then perhaps the amount of it done should > be, at > the least, minimized. We certainly are in an ecological crisis > (I'm > about to start writing a book about it) and that is exactly why I > would hope > that the people who already understand this situation would rethink > the > amount of banding that continues to be done. We can't afford to > add to the > pressures our wildlife is already struggling with. > > Thanks so much for your consideration of my thoughts. I do > appreciate it. > > Sincerely, > Marlene > > Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole > Books) > Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker > Crozet, VA 22932-2204 > E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com > _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: thanks to all who wrote following my article clarification From: Marlene Condon <MARLENECONDON AT AOL.COM> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 15:28:17 -0500 Hi, I would like to thank everyone who wrote to explain where they are "coming from". I don't want to get into a running discussion on the listserv, but I would like to make a couple of more points, please. I'm not sure, but I expect that Warbling Vireos do not need to travel over a large body of water to leave and return to California. My main concern is for the migratory birds that need, for example, to cross the Gulf of Mexico. These birds are flying a marathon of sorts which they have bulked up for. If they start on their journey and then lose weight at a banding station, are they programmed to take the time to try to bulk up again in unfamiliar territory? If they are, could the delay be detrimental? And with today's limited habitat, is there enough food to feed hundreds or thousands of birds on the move? I do realize that much important information has come from banding, but it seems to me that much of the information gained these days could be figured out without banding. For example, a newly restored prairie presumably signifies the return to original habitat, so it should be expected that it wou ld host a higher species diversity of birds than adjacent old fields that I assume consist of plants not native to prairies. I realize that everyone seems to insist upon studies to come to conclusions and to make decisions nowadays, but in many cases, using logic can and should suffice. A study shouldn't be necessary to declare an area prime habitat for wildlife if people already know what comprises prime habitat and what species it supports. I did visit a banding station once and I did not possess any preconceived notions about it. I'm sure I thought it would be interesting. But when I saw the intense fear in the eyes of the birds being handled, I had to leave. A good friend who had gone there with me was shocked because he had always found my scientific manner of looking at life to be non-emotional. He said he realized that day that I had a heart. I've always had a heart, but it doesn't rule my brain. Intellectually I feel that if banding could be harmful--and it's not clear to me that anyone has truly proven it isn't--then perhaps the amount of it done should be, at the least, minimized. We certainly are in an ecological crisis (I'm about to start writing a book about it) and that is exactly why I would hope that the people who already understand this situation would rethink the amount of banding that continues to be done. We can't afford to add to the pressures our wildlife is already struggling with. Thanks so much for your consideration of my thoughts. I do appreciate it. Sincerely, Marlene Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker Crozet, VA 22932-2204 E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional From: Dennis Vroman <dpvroman AT BUDGET.NET> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 16:15:37 -0700 Remaining calm and not moving in face of danger appears to be something a bird may do. To make a long story short as possible. Several years back, just outside our front door on our deck railing, a Pine Siskin was crouched low, and motionless (appeared dead, but upright, not belly up). Then I noticed a Sharp-shinned Hawk about 5 feet from it on a branch intensely watching it. Not sure what to do, I waited. The Hawk got nervous and flew off. However, the Siskin remained motionless; I could see it's eyes blinking. I walked over and placed my hand around the bird on the deck railing and pick it up (using the banders grip, naturally). It didn't attempt to struggled for a minute or so. Finally, it began to wiggle in my hand a bit. Checking for the Hawk, which I couldn't find, the bird was released and it flew off. In this case, remaining motionless appeared to be something this bird did to swart a Hawk attack. It had been though enough, no band placed on this one. Dennis Vroman, Grants Pass, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "CelticCail AT aol.com" To: Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDBAND] comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional I agree with everything said by Ann, but I think their "calmness" is not a sense of fear subsiding but not wanting to make sudden movements to attract further attention (think being super-still when a cat is toying with you, each movement brings on another attack from the cat.) My perception is also not provable, but I do not think the birds are CALM during banding, but they are certainly also not stressed. I think they have a healthy fear, and probably some confusion as to why they are not in pain. Cailin O'Connor Fitzpatrick Bander-in-Charge Raccoon Ridge Bird Observatory Sandyston, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Ann Nightingale To: BIRDBAND Sent: Sat, Nov 5, 2011 5:48 pm Subject: Re: [BIRDBAND] comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional Hi Marlene, I'd like to address your "empathy" point. At the top of my list of "hot buttons" are people who are cruel to animals. If I believed banding was cruel, there is no way that I could be a part of it. You've received a lot of feedback on the science. I'd like to provide some on the "heart". I, too, would have expected that birds would be terribly stressed by the banding process. It was only by becoming involved in it that I saw that it wasn't the case. We know the signs of stress--panting, eyes closing, slackness in the body, puffing up of feathers--and as banders, are constantly on the lookout for these signs. Stressed birds are released immediately or if warranted, held and treated for the stress (usually by holding in a dark, quiet, warm place) until they are able to be released. The occurrence of stress is very rare and is most often due to weather rather than to handling. Most birds are quite calm when they land in our mistnets. They often lie still until someone approaches to extract them from the net. At that point, there is generally an attempt to escape, as you would expect. However, within a few seconds of being in the hand, the birds tend to calm down. Note that I said here they calm down--they do not show the above-noted signs of stress. My (improvable) belief is that once they sense that you are not a predator--i.e. you are neither hurting nor eating them -- whatever fear they had subsides. Most birds are surprisingly calm during the banding process, and at release do not hurry off or go too far away, like you would expect a terrified animal to do. Some, such as many Northern Saw-whet Owls, will stay nearby the banding location watching the action for a while before departing. Many songbirds go to the nearest shrub where they sit and groom for a few minutes before going on their way. If they have fear of the humans who were just handling them, they are not showing it. Birds in the hand do not appear "absolutely terrified". Of course, we'll probably never really know what's going on inside the birds' heads, but this is my take after having handled thousands of birds over the years. I am empathetic, and would not be involved in banding if I thought it caused undue stress on the birds. Ann Nightingale Saanichton, BC, Canada archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional From: "CelticCail AT aol.com" <celticcail@AOL.COM> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 17:54:50 -0400 I agree with everything said by Ann, but I think their "calmness" is not a sense of fear subsiding but not wanting to make sudden movements to attract further attention (think being super-still when a cat is toying with you, each movement brings on another attack from the cat.) My perception is also not provable, but I do not think the birds are CALM during banding, but they are certainly also not stressed. I think they have a healthy fear, and probably some confusion as to why they are not in pain. Cailin O'Connor Fitzpatrick Bander-in-Charge Raccoon Ridge Bird Observatory Sandyston, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Ann Nightingale To: BIRDBAND Sent: Sat, Nov 5, 2011 5:48 pm Subject: Re: [BIRDBAND] comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional Hi Marlene, I'd like to address your "empathy" point. At the top of my list of "hot buttons" are people who are cruel to animals. If I believed banding was cruel, there is no way that I could be a part of it. You've received a lot of feedback on the science. I'd like to provide some on the "heart". I, too, would have expected that birds would be terribly stressed by the banding process. It was only by becoming involved in it that I saw that it wasn't the case. We know the signs of stress--panting, eyes closing, slackness in the body, puffing up of feathers--and as banders, are constantly on the lookout for these signs. Stressed birds are released immediately or if warranted, held and treated for the stress (usually by holding in a dark, quiet, warm place) until they are able to be released. The occurrence of stress is very rare and is most often due to weather rather than to handling. Most birds are quite calm when they land in our mistnets. They often lie still until someone approaches to extract them from the net. At that point, there is generally an attempt to escape, as you would expect. However, within a few seconds of being in the hand, the birds tend to calm down. Note that I said here they calm down--they do not show the above-noted signs of stress. My (improvable) belief is that once they sense that you are not a predator--i.e. you are neither hurting nor eating them -- whatever fear they had subsides. Most birds are surprisingly calm during the banding process, and at release do not hurry off or go too far away, like you would expect a terrified animal to do. Some, such as many Northern Saw-whet Owls, will stay nearby the banding location watching the action for a while before departing. Many songbirds go to the nearest shrub where they sit and groom for a few minutes before going on their way. If they have fear of the humans who were just handling them, they are not showing it. Birds in the hand do not appear "absolutely terrified". Of course, we'll probably never really know what's going on inside the birds' heads, but this is my take after having handled thousands of birds over the years. I am empathetic, and would not be involved in banding if I thought it caused undue stress on the birds. Ann Nightingale Saanichton, BC, Canada -----Original Message----- From: Bird Bander's Forum [mailto:BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Marlene A Condon Sent: November-05-11 11:41 AM To: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDBAND] comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional My original essay that I submitted to The Wildlife Professional was altered quite a bit by the editor. As a writer, I realize that this is what editors routinely do, so I accepted it. However, due to comments being made about the published version of my essay, I feel it’s important to clarify my opinion why banding should be stopped. My original essay was based upon: (1) physics, (2) biology, (3) logic, and (4) empathy. (1) Physics (the science of the relationship between matter and energy) dictates that increasing the amount of mass to be carried over miles increases the energy costs to carry it. (2) A migrant has evolved to add just enough fat to its body to provide the energy needed to carry its average weight across the Gulf of Mexico. The benefit (ability to fly farther/longer)-to-cost (extra effort) ratio does not justify carrying extraneous mass (fat). (3) Logic (the science that deals with the principles of valid reasoning) suggests that banding must be detrimental. Adding a band—which increases mass to be carried—means a songbird’s energy will be exhausted sooner. Even if a bird’s energy is not depleted until it is as close as a few inches from land, the end result is disastrous because the creature is going to drown if it falls into the water. Songbirds do not swim. (4) Empathy (the ability to identify with and understand another’s situation and feelings) tells you that birds are absolutely terrified when handled by humans (their natural enemies, as witnessed this fall by the hunting in the Lesser Antilles that killed 2 whimbrels being tracked). It’s logical then, to conclude that banders are inflicting severe stress—and thus physical harm—upon the creatures they profess to care about. On the Web, Ron Refsnider has commented that his daughter’s research referenced in my essay was “hardly scientifically rigorous research”. His daughter’s paper was published in the North American Bird Bander which I would assume would only publish papers of merit. As someone who is not a part of the bird banding community, surely I can be forgiven for not knowing that this publication does not hold itself to high standards, as Mr. Refsnider seems to be implying. Mr. Refsnider also states that my use of the phrase “banding process” was “ faulty”, implying that birds being held in captivity for 2 hours prior to being banded is not a part of the process of banding. “Process” is defined as a series of actions that leads towards a particular result. Clearly the “banding process” starts with the capture of a bird and ends with the release of the bird, which usually includes a holding period. That is what I meant by that particular phrase. I hope this clarifies "where I'm coming from". Thank you very much for your time. Sincerely, Marlene Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker Crozet, VA 22932-2204 E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional From: Ann Nightingale <motmot AT SHAW.CA> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 14:48:20 -0700 Hi Marlene, I'd like to address your "empathy" point. At the top of my list of "hot buttons" are people who are cruel to animals. If I believed banding was cruel, there is no way that I could be a part of it. You've received a lot of feedback on the science. I'd like to provide some on the "heart". I, too, would have expected that birds would be terribly stressed by the banding process. It was only by becoming involved in it that I saw that it wasn't the case. We know the signs of stress--panting, eyes closing, slackness in the body, puffing up of feathers--and as banders, are constantly on the lookout for these signs. Stressed birds are released immediately or if warranted, held and treated for the stress (usually by holding in a dark, quiet, warm place) until they are able to be released. The occurrence of stress is very rare and is most often due to weather rather than to handling. Most birds are quite calm when they land in our mistnets. They often lie still until someone approaches to extract them from the net. At that point, there is generally an attempt to escape, as you would expect. However, within a few seconds of being in the hand, the birds tend to calm down. Note that I said here they calm down--they do not show the above-noted signs of stress. My (improvable) belief is that once they sense that you are not a predator--i.e. you are neither hurting nor eating them -- whatever fear they had subsides. Most birds are surprisingly calm during the banding process, and at release do not hurry off or go too far away, like you would expect a terrified animal to do. Some, such as many Northern Saw-whet Owls, will stay nearby the banding location watching the action for a while before departing. Many songbirds go to the nearest shrub where they sit and groom for a few minutes before going on their way. If they have fear of the humans who were just handling them, they are not showing it. Birds in the hand do not appear "absolutely terrified". Of course, we'll probably never really know what's going on inside the birds' heads, but this is my take after having handled thousands of birds over the years. I am empathetic, and would not be involved in banding if I thought it caused undue stress on the birds. Ann Nightingale Saanichton, BC, Canada -----Original Message----- From: Bird Bander's Forum [mailto:BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Marlene A Condon Sent: November-05-11 11:41 AM To: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDBAND] comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional My original essay that I submitted to The Wildlife Professional was altered quite a bit by the editor. As a writer, I realize that this is what editors routinely do, so I accepted it. However, due to comments being made about the published version of my essay, I feel it’s important to clarify my opinion why banding should be stopped. My original essay was based upon: (1) physics, (2) biology, (3) logic, and (4) empathy. (1) Physics (the science of the relationship between matter and energy) dictates that increasing the amount of mass to be carried over miles increases the energy costs to carry it. (2) A migrant has evolved to add just enough fat to its body to provide the energy needed to carry its average weight across the Gulf of Mexico. The benefit (ability to fly farther/longer)-to-cost (extra effort) ratio does not justify carrying extraneous mass (fat). (3) Logic (the science that deals with the principles of valid reasoning) suggests that banding must be detrimental. Adding a band—which increases mass to be carried—means a songbird’s energy will be exhausted sooner. Even if a bird’s energy is not depleted until it is as close as a few inches from land, the end result is disastrous because the creature is going to drown if it falls into the water. Songbirds do not swim. (4) Empathy (the ability to identify with and understand another’s situation and feelings) tells you that birds are absolutely terrified when handled by humans (their natural enemies, as witnessed this fall by the hunting in the Lesser Antilles that killed 2 whimbrels being tracked). It’s logical then, to conclude that banders are inflicting severe stress—and thus physical harm—upon the creatures they profess to care about. On the Web, Ron Refsnider has commented that his daughter’s research referenced in my essay was “hardly scientifically rigorous research”. His daughter’s paper was published in the North American Bird Bander which I would assume would only publish papers of merit. As someone who is not a part of the bird banding community, surely I can be forgiven for not knowing that this publication does not hold itself to high standards, as Mr. Refsnider seems to be implying. Mr. Refsnider also states that my use of the phrase “banding process” was “ faulty”, implying that birds being held in captivity for 2 hours prior to being banded is not a part of the process of banding. “Process” is defined as a series of actions that leads towards a particular result. Clearly the “banding process” starts with the capture of a bird and ends with the release of the bird, which usually includes a holding period. That is what I meant by that particular phrase. I hope this clarifies "where I'm coming from". Thank you very much for your time. Sincerely, Marlene Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker Crozet, VA 22932-2204 E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional From: Mara McDonald <mamcdona AT WISC.EDU> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 14:32:56 -0500 Marlene, I am a bander in Madison,Wisconsin, with over ten years of banding at our station. I sympathize with your feelings about birds and the predicament they find themselves in. However, I am not convinced that banded birds have a major problem in migration when banded. I know that a Warbling Vireo returned at least 12 times to its territory in Northern California after migrating from Central America for the winter. I also know that we were lucky to have a photographer send us a picture of one of our banded Warbling Vireos 2 years after it was banded as a Hatch Year. We also have a nice collection of banded birds returning each year. One Baltimore Oriole was recaptured five years after it had been originally banded. I believe Bill Hilton has had some nice recaptures of hummingbirds, as well. Our data suggest that newly restored prairies begin to host a higher species diversity of birds than adjacent old fields, and that the size of the prairie need not be very big. The birds are not all grassland species of large tracts of prairies, but our data suggest more species have a favorable place to reproduce. We would not know this, and other information, without banding. I suggest you visit the Bird Banding Lab's page on the utility of banding. Banding has been going on for over a century, and those data are stored. It turns out that the Father of Bird Banding, L.J. Cole, was also the first chair of the Department of Genetics at UW-Madison, something I am quite proud of. http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/bbl/homepage/whyband.cfm I do empathize with the birds we net. Our protocols require frequent checking of the nets (every 15-20 minutes), and processing the birds immediately. We don't band birds that appear stressed, but release them at the net. Although I don't see this very often, I had a Common Yellowthroat become recaptured a number of times, and about 4 times in one day. With small mammals, we call this recapture rate indicative of a trap-happy animal. The most important aspect of banding, though, is the information they provide us about the state of birds. We are in an ecological crisis, and the birds are our canaries. We do bird banding as much for the conservation aspects as anything else. Banding also reduces the practice of shooting birds to acquire data. Tony Goldberg on our campus has studied West Nile Virus and why it has more of an impact in certain areas of Chicago than other ares or cities. He could not have done his work without banding birds. The work is important to people, to birds, and to the understanding of how new diseases enter our environment. Moreover, banded birds tell us about how climate change is affecting them and their habitats. Please visit the BBL site, and follow some banders' blogs, if you can. Mara McDonald, Ph.D. Biocore Prairie Bird Observatory University of Wisconsin-Madison campus On Nov 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, Marlene A Condon wrote: > > > My original essay that I submitted to The Wildlife Professional was > altered quite a bit by the editor. As a writer, I realize that this is what > editors routinely do, so I accepted it. > However, due to comments being made about the published version of my > essay, I feel it’s important to clarify my opinion why banding should be > stopped. My original essay was based upon: (1) physics, (2) biology, (3) logic, > and (4) empathy. > (1) Physics (the science of the relationship between matter and energy) > dictates that increasing the amount of mass to be carried over miles > increases the energy costs to carry it. > (2) A migrant has evolved to add just enough fat to its body to provide > the energy needed to carry its average weight across the Gulf of Mexico. The > benefit (ability to fly farther/longer)-to-cost (extra effort) ratio does > not justify carrying extraneous mass (fat). > (3) Logic (the science that deals with the principles of valid reasoning) > suggests that banding must be detrimental. Adding a band—which increases > mass to be carried—means a songbird’s energy will be exhausted sooner. > Even if a bird’s energy is not depleted until it is as close as a few inches > from land, the end result is disastrous because the creature is going to > drown if it falls into the water. Songbirds do not swim. > (4) Empathy (the ability to identify with and understand another’s > situation and feelings) tells you that birds are absolutely terrified when > handled by humans (their natural enemies, as witnessed this fall by the hunting > in the Lesser Antilles that killed 2 whimbrels being tracked). It’s logical > then, to conclude that banders are inflicting severe stress—and thus > physical harm—upon the creatures they profess to care about. > On the Web, Ron Refsnider has commented that his daughter’s research > referenced in my essay > was “hardly scientifically rigorous research”. His daughter’s paper was > published in the North American > Bird Bander which I would assume would only publish papers of merit. As > someone who is not a part > of the bird banding community, surely I can be forgiven for not knowing > that this publication does not hold > itself to high standards, as Mr. Refsnider seems to be implying. > > Mr. Refsnider also states that my use of the phrase “banding process” was “ > faulty”, implying that birds > being held in captivity for 2 hours prior to being banded is not a part of > the process of banding. > “Process” is defined as a series of actions that leads towards a > particular result. Clearly the “banding > process” starts with the capture of a bird and ends with the release of the > bird, which usually includes > a holding period. That is what I meant by that particular phrase. > > I hope this clarifies "where I'm coming from". Thank you very much for > your time. > Sincerely, > Marlene > > > Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) > Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker > Crozet, VA 22932-2204 > E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com > _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) > > > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: comments regarding my banding essay in The Wildlife Professional From: Marlene A Condon <MARLENECONDON AT AOL.COM> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 14:41:26 -0400 My original essay that I submitted to The Wildlife Professional was altered quite a bit by the editor. As a writer, I realize that this is what editors routinely do, so I accepted it. However, due to comments being made about the published version of my essay, I feel it’s important to clarify my opinion why banding should be stopped. My original essay was based upon: (1) physics, (2) biology, (3) logic, and (4) empathy. (1) Physics (the science of the relationship between matter and energy) dictates that increasing the amount of mass to be carried over miles increases the energy costs to carry it. (2) A migrant has evolved to add just enough fat to its body to provide the energy needed to carry its average weight across the Gulf of Mexico. The benefit (ability to fly farther/longer)-to-cost (extra effort) ratio does not justify carrying extraneous mass (fat). (3) Logic (the science that deals with the principles of valid reasoning) suggests that banding must be detrimental. Adding a band—which increases mass to be carried—means a songbird’s energy will be exhausted sooner. Even if a bird’s energy is not depleted until it is as close as a few inches from land, the end result is disastrous because the creature is going to drown if it falls into the water. Songbirds do not swim. (4) Empathy (the ability to identify with and understand another’s situation and feelings) tells you that birds are absolutely terrified when handled by humans (their natural enemies, as witnessed this fall by the hunting in the Lesser Antilles that killed 2 whimbrels being tracked). It’s logical then, to conclude that banders are inflicting severe stress—and thus physical harm—upon the creatures they profess to care about. On the Web, Ron Refsnider has commented that his daughter’s research referenced in my essay was “hardly scientifically rigorous research”. His daughter’s paper was published in the North American Bird Bander which I would assume would only publish papers of merit. As someone who is not a part of the bird banding community, surely I can be forgiven for not knowing that this publication does not hold itself to high standards, as Mr. Refsnider seems to be implying. Mr. Refsnider also states that my use of the phrase “banding process” was “ faulty”, implying that birds being held in captivity for 2 hours prior to being banded is not a part of the process of banding. “Process” is defined as a series of actions that leads towards a particular result. Clearly the “banding process” starts with the capture of a bird and ends with the release of the bird, which usually includes a holding period. That is what I meant by that particular phrase. I hope this clarifies "where I'm coming from". Thank you very much for your time. Sincerely, Marlene Marlene A. Condon (Author, The Nature-friendly Garden, Stackpole Books) Naturalist and Writer/Photographer/Speaker Crozet, VA 22932-2204 E-mail: MARLENECONDON AT aol.com _www.MARLENECONDON.com_ (http://www.marlenecondon.com/) archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: color bands From: Jack Clinton Eitniear <jce AT CSTBINC.ORG> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 06:05:57 -0700 Does anyone have any experience using a Zona saw to cut darvic colored bands?   Jack Eitniear CSTB Inc.    "We will be known forever by the tracks we leave" Dakota Indian Saying ________________________________ archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: color bands From: Anthony Hill <anhinga13 AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 08:59:54 -0400 Charlie and the group - I believe the REPORTBAND.GOV website now has the ability to take color band combinations. I think I heard this from a BBL person at the EBBA meeting in PA. Anthony Hill S. Hadley, MA | Préservons l'environnement - Avez-vous réellement besoin d'imprimer ce courriel ? | | Please consider the environment - Do you really need to print this e-mail? | | Piense en verde. Antes de imprimir este email hágase la siguiente pregunta, es necesario?|** BUY a duck stamp at the Post Office and conserve habitat ** archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: the hits keep coming From: Charlie <cmmbirds AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 10:36:04 -0700 Today I received a phone call regarding another dead banded HI folks, Today I received a phone call regarding another dead banded bird. I'll be reporting it to BBL in a minute.  It came with photos, which I'll gladly share with the bander, if any comes forward.  I'm curious about who may be color banding this species..  Badly decomposed, but appears to be a male House Finch. Band combo is L:  blue/blue;  R: silver/blue Cheers, Charlie As mentioned in today's phone call, yesterday 3 Nov, I found a dead banded bird on my roof while blowing leaves away.  I could not tell how it died and did not seen any feathers in the area but could probably rule out cats, antennas or a window strike.   Information on the silver band is:                 NBS USA                 4501-                    25343 archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: warbler 2630-90728 From: Charlie <cmmbirds AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 12:27:10 -0700 Someone turned in a dead warbler today at the Atlanta Audubo Hi folks, Someone turned in a dead warbler today at the Atlanta Audubon office.  I'm still trying to track down name, precise location, etc before I can report it to BBL.  But in the meanwhile, does anyone want to see if this is theirs?  Office manager thinks it's a BTNW.  I've not yet seen it. cheers, Charlie Muise Lamar County, Georgia, USA archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: celluloid color bands From: Risto Juvaste <risto AT JUVASTE.FI> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 00:48:14 -0700 Hi I really do not understand using Darvic (PVC) or Celluloid colour bands and their mixtures. Also 0.7mm engraving laminates are too weak. Some comments on ring materials in my pages > www.juvaste.fi/risto/materials.php < We in Finland are using 1.0mm PMMA read rings for Siberian Jays for years and they work fine (I have made the rings). They are easy to read by binoculars or BY DIGITAL CAMERA and there is no risk for false reads because of missing rings or false order of colours. You can look a pic in > www.juvaste.fi/images/V87.jpg < I wrote "BY DIGITAL CAMERA" with capital letters because quick self focusing cameras (like Canon 7D + good IS lens) are very nice way to read rings (also digiscoping even by mobile). I read many of my gulls from boat without seeing the rings. I just take lot of pics and see the ring in computer. You can have an idea of this in a Powerpoint hidden in my pages > www.juvaste.fi/risto/RENGCANOONALLA.ppt < (2.6Mb) best regards Risto > www.juvaste.fi/ < 2.11.2011 17:41, William H. Barnard kirjoitti: > I am looking for celluloid color bands (size comparable to size 2 bird band, 3.8 mm ID) that you might not need any more and be willing to sell. > > I have a 20 colorbanded study of Gray Jays. Recently shifted to Darvic leg bands because most of the celluloid band colors are not available. This past year has been a disaster for band loss. I went 15 years without a loss of the celluloid bands glued with Duco cement. After 10 years on a bird they would get brittle. I have had an unacceptable loss of Darvic bands. I have a soldering gun and weld the butts closed but the bands come off. Obviously not doing it correctly. I work alone in the field and trying to handle a biting bird, while holding a leg and band in the correct position while trying to wait for a soldering gun to come to temperature has resulted in burnt fingers and me getting hot under the color. > > Bill Barnard > > > > William H. Barnard, Ph.D. > Biology Department > Norwich University > Northfield, VT 05663 > > 802-485-2342 > 2.11.2011 17:41, William H. Barnard kirjoitti: > I am looking for celluloid color bands (size comparable to size 2 bird band, 3.8 mm ID) that you might not need any more and be willing to sell. > > I have a 20 colorbanded study of Gray Jays. Recently shifted to Darvic leg bands because most of the celluloid band colors are not available. This past year has been a disaster for band loss. I went 15 years without a loss of the celluloid bands glued with Duco cement. After 10 years on a bird they would get brittle. I have had an unacceptable loss of Darvic bands. I have a soldering gun and weld the butts closed but the bands come off. Obviously not doing it correctly. I work alone in the field and trying to handle a biting bird, while holding a leg and band in the correct position while trying to wait for a soldering gun to come to temperature has resulted in burnt fingers and me getting hot under the color. > > Bill Barnard > > > > William H. Barnard, Ph.D. > Biology Department > Norwich University > Northfield, VT 05663 > > 802-485-2342 > > > archives and subscription options can be found at: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html > archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: celluloid color bands From: "William H. Barnard" <barnard AT NORWICH.EDU> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 15:41:58 +0000 I am looking for celluloid color bands (size comparable to size 2 bird band, 3.8 mm ID) that you might not need any more and be willing to sell. I have a 20 colorbanded study of Gray Jays. Recently shifted to Darvic leg bands because most of the celluloid band colors are not available. This past year has been a disaster for band loss. I went 15 years without a loss of the celluloid bands glued with Duco cement. After 10 years on a bird they would get brittle. I have had an unacceptable loss of Darvic bands. I have a soldering gun and weld the butts closed but the bands come off. Obviously not doing it correctly. I work alone in the field and trying to handle a biting bird, while holding a leg and band in the correct position while trying to wait for a soldering gun to come to temperature has resulted in burnt fingers and me getting hot under the color. Bill Barnard William H. Barnard, Ph.D. Biology Department Norwich University Northfield, VT 05663 802-485-2342 archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: VARC - October Blog! From: Derek J Matthews <Derek.J.Matthews AT SPECTRUM-CANADA.COM> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 08:45:03 -0700 Hi Banders and Ringers, I've just uploaded the final, humungous blog of the year! Our normal quieter October exploded with huge numbers of birds moving through the park and resulted in one of our busiest months of the year with lots of species diversity including two White-throated Sparrows, two Wilson's Snipes, two Northern Shrikes and several Accipiters all caught for banding. The blog is loaded with information on molt from Zonotrichia and Melospiza Sparrows to Wood Warblers and Woodpeckers! For photos and information on all of this month's activity at VARC please click here: http://birdvancouver.com/oct.html Happy fall banding and ringing! Derek Derek Matthews Vancouver Avian Research Centre Vancouver, BC, Canada www.birdvancouver.com archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Wing Island banding blog, Brewster, MA From: Sue Finnegan <suefinnegan AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 03:07:44 +0000 I've just updated my banding blog for the past two weeks in October if anyone is interested. http://www.capecodbander.blogspot.com Sue Finnegan Wing Island Banding Station Cape Cod Museum of Natural History Brewster MA 02631 archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: New publication on measuring birds From: Rob Robinson <rob.robinson AT BTO.ORG> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:26:52 +0000 which may be of interest to some... Dear Colleagues, We are pleased to announce that our book on "Measuring birds" has finally been published and can now be ordered from Christ Media Natur (€ 24.90, please contact info AT media-natur.de for shipping costs to your country). About the book: Measuring birds Developed by a team of field and museum ornithologists, this book is the first up-to-date comprehensive presentation of a large number of different measurements that can be taken on birds: easy to use and with detailed illustrations this handy volume offers concise instructions and recommendations on how to measure birds. Problems with particular measuring techniques are discussed, as well as accuracy, reliability and comparability of measurements, the numbering of flight feathers, skull ossification, measuring tools and weight. A comprehensive list of references rounds off this useful book. Printed on durable water resistant plastic and with a convenient spiral binding, this manual has been explicitly designed for use in the field and for taxidermy. An absolute must for bird ringers, museum curators, taxidermists and everyone concerned with morphometry. Content / Inhalt: â—Ź Why measure? / Warum messen? â—Ź Accuracy and reliability of measurements / Genauigkeit und Zuverlässigkeit von MaĂźen â—Ź Comparison of measurements on fresh and dried specimens / Vergleich von Frisch- und TrockenmaĂźen â—Ź Numbering of flight feathers / Die Nummerierung der Federn des GroĂźgefieders â—Ź Measuring live birds / MaĂźe am lebenden Vogel â—Ź Skull ossification as an ageng criterion in passerines / Die Pneumatisation des Schädeldachs der Singvögel als Hilfe zur Altersbestimmung â—Ź Weight (body mass) / Gewicht (Körpermasse) â—Ź Equipment for measuring / Messgeräte â—Ź Bird measurements in detail / Die einzelnen Messstrecken des Vogels â—Ź References / Literatur â—Ź Index / Stichwortverzeichnis Technical details / technische Details: â—Ź All measurements at a glance / alle Messstrecken auf einen Blick â—Ź Bilingual / durchgehend zweisprachig â—Ź Two-colour, UV-proof printing on washable, weatherproof plastic / UV-beständiger Zweifarbdruck auf waschbarem, wetterfestem Hart-PVC â—Ź Pocket-size format / handliches Taschenformat: 18,6 x 13 cm â—Ź Detailed description of different measuring techniques / genaue Erläuterung verschiedener Messweisen â—Ź Measuring recommendations / Empfehlung einer Messstrecke â—Ź Advice whether applicable to live birds, dead birds or skins / Angabe ob am lebenden, toten oder präparierten Vogel zu nehmen â—Ź Detailed illustration of measuring methods / genaue grafische Darstellung der Messstrecke â—Ź References for further reading / Literaturquellen und weiterfĂĽhrende Literatur Authors / Autoren: Siegfried Eck, JĂĽrgen Fiebig, Wolfgang Fiedler, Iris Heynen, Bernd Nicolai, Till Töpfer, Renate van den Elzen, Raffael Winkler, Friederike Woog Artwork / Grafik: Nils Hoff, Museum fĂĽr Naturkunde Berlin Published by the DO-G project group »Ornithological Collections« / Herausgegeben von der DO-G Projektgruppe »Ornithologische Sammlungen« Please send your orders to: Christ Media Natur Postfach 110205 D-32405 Minden Email: info AT media-natur.de or order online at: www.media-natur.de If you have any further questions regarding this publication, please do not hesitate to contact us at measuring.birds AT web.de. Best regards, Iris Heynen (for the "Measuring birds" team). archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Exciting Louisiana Bird Banding From: jared wolfe <jdwolfe80 AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:57:27 -0700 Hello Banders,   Below is a regular update from the Bluebonnet Bird Monitoring Project (BBMP), from Baton Rouge-Louisiana. I forwarded this particular email to the listserv because it provides some information and links to photos from the “Yellow Rails and Rice Festival” where Louisiana banders have started to monitor migrating and wintering Rail populations. Rails were captured by erecting mist-nets on the edges of fields being actively harvested to capture birds fleeing the rice combines. All Rails were safely captured, banded, processed and released.   It was an exciting way to capture and study some amazing species. Photos from the links below are not great, but, I will be uploading quality Sora, Yellow and Virginia Rail wing and profile photos to our expanding website dedicated to the study of Louisiana bird molt: http://bluebonnetbirdmonitoringproject.shutterfly.com/   For those itching to see Rails in the hand, I recommend joining us for next year’s Yellow Rails and Rice Festival.   Happy Banding,   Jared Wolfe School of Renewable Natural Resources Louisiana State University Baton Rouge, LA 70803   ------------------------------------------------------------         Hello Bluebonnet Banders, Volunteers and Aficionados,   Volunteers captured a nice mix of wintering and migrant birds today at Bluebonnet Swamp: Hermit Thrush, Gray Catbird, Indigo Bunting, White-throated Sparrow, Brown Thrasher. In addition to the wintering/migrant birds, we captured several quality resident species: Northern Flicker, White-eyed Vireo, Blue Jay, Carolina Chickadee, Carolina Wren, and (of course) Northern Cardinal.   Several Bluebonnet Volunteers were slightly exhausted after helping Erik Johnson and Michael Seymour band birds yesterday at the Yellow-Rail and Rice Festival (29-Oct). Rail banding started off slow, but culminated in multiple captures of Yellow Rail, Virginia Rail, Savannah Sparrow, and single captures of Sora, Grasshopper Sparrow, and Swamp Sparrow. Several photos from the Rail banding have been posted on Dave Patton’s website: http://www.pbase.com/pattonpix/yrrf2011   We will be posting wing and profile shots of all birds captured this weekend at Bluebonnet and the Rails and Rice Festival on our Bluebonnet Bird Monitoring Project photo website shortly: http://bluebonnetbirdmonitoringproject.shutterfly.com/   Thanks to all the Bluebonnet Volunteers who helped make today’s banding effort a success: Kristin Brzeski, Emma DeLeon, Emily Earll, John Hartgerink, Melanie Mancuso, Karl Mokross, Eric Stary, Jerry Seagle, Stephen Shipman, Sherri Utley and Jared Wolfe.   For more information about Bluebonnet Bird Monitoring Project please visit our website: http://www.braudubon.org/bluebonnet-swamp-bird-monitoring.php   Happy Birding,   Jared Wolfe School of Renewable Natural Resources Louisiana State University Baton Rouge, LA 70803 archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: Happy, super happy From: J.C. Fernández-Ordóńez <jcwarbler AT YAHOO.ES> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 00:51:42 +0000 Add a Web address on the bands it Congratulations/Enhorabuena Manuel! Add a Web address on the bands it is very important as well as establish a band system (scheme) in America (all countries)... I know that WHBBN/RAAHO is working (I am a member), but it is important to see some results and begin to work together... With the best wishes/Con los mejores deseos, JC ====================== J.C. Fernández-Ordóńez San Carlos (Venezuela) jcwarbler AT yahoo.es +58 4263498040 >________________________________ >De: Manuel Grosselet >Para: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Enviado: domingo 30 de octubre de 2011 19:39 >Asunto: [BIRDBAND] Happy, super happy > >There are two week ago, we get a recapture of a WiWA from NY. >Hi Guys, > >There are two week ago, we get a recapture of a WiWA from NY... > >Today we get a recapture of BAOR in Guatemala...And did you know how we get the information? > >We use both bands USFWS and ours bands, with www.tierradeaves.com on each band. And today a very humble country side person call us on the cel phone (the number is on the web page) tolling us that his kid kill a bird and have a silver ring..She gave us place and band number. We band this bird in Veracruz the last Oct 12..and get killed (sad) in Peten region, Guatemala...around 520 km southern. > > >It's very important to establish band system in America.. We have the proove now that internet address look a good option... > >The bird crossing through our area could go straight to Peten area, a very important area for conservation... > >Happy we are for the recapture, sad for the bird.. >It's wondefull that a very low incom person take his time and money to get the information. We just publish a bird book of Oaxaca, and we will find the way to send one book to her. > > >Another hand, I know that in Mexico some "researcher" get few of my bands, And I never get back the information...I have the information through friend but the researcher stay hermetic to comunication.. Poor Mexico. > > >enjoy banding. > >All the best >Manuel > >www.tierradeaves.com > > > archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: integrate this data in BBL data base From: Manuel Grosselet <birdinnet AT YAHOO.COM.MX> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:16:46 -0700 One question how could we included this information in the bbl Hi Guys One question how could we included this information in the bbl data base..?? the recapture of the bird from Veracruz to Guatemala?? Saludos Manuel www.tierradeaves.com archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Happy, super happy From: Manuel Grosselet <birdinnet AT YAHOO.COM.MX> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:09:26 -0700 There are two week ago, we get a recapture of a WiWA from NY. Hi Guys, There are two week ago, we get a recapture of a WiWA from NY... Today we get a recapture of BAOR in Guatemala...And did you know how we get the information? We use both bands USFWS and ours bands, with www.tierradeaves.com on each band. And today a very humble country side person call us on the cel phone (the number is on the web page) tolling us that his kid kill a bird and have a silver ring..She gave us place and band number. We band this bird in Veracruz the last Oct 12..and get killed (sad) in Peten region, Guatemala...around 520 km southern. It's very important to establish band system in America.. We have the proove now that internet address look a good option... The bird crossing through our area could go straight to Peten area, a very important area for conservation... Happy we are for the recapture, sad for the bird.. It's wondefull that a very low incom person take his time and money to get the information. We just publish a bird book of Oaxaca, and we will find the way to send one book to her. Another hand, I know that in Mexico some "researcher" get few of my bands, And I never get back the information...I have the information through friend but the researcher stay hermetic to comunication.. Poor Mexico. enjoy banding. All the best Manuel www.tierradeaves.com archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Metro Beach banding report - October 24 & 28, 2011 From: Allen Chartier <amazilia3 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:19:03 -0400 Birders and Banders, I have updated my blog with results, highlights, and photos from two banding sessions conducted on Monday October 24 and Saturday October 29, at Metro Beach Metropark, Macomb Co., Michigan (42*34'29.9"N, 82*48'31.5"W). Once again, a new species was added to the list of birds banded at Metro Beach, along with some good numbers and additional arrivals. Check out my blog at: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/ -- Allen T. Chartier Inkster, Michigan Email: amazilia3 AT gmail.com Website: www.amazilia.net Blog: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/ archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: spatial modelling with INLA workshop, St Andrews January 2012 From: janine illian <janine AT MCS.ST-AND.AC.UK> Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:13:37 +0100 Dear all, A workshop on spatial modelling with INLA will be held in the Centre for Research into Ecological and Environmental Modelling (CREEM), University of St Andrews, 17th-19th January 2012. Integrated nested Laplacian approximation (INLA) facilitates the fitting of a large range of complex statistical models by dramatically reducing computation time. This three day workshop discusses how spatial models may be fitted with INLA using the package R-INLA. We discuss a wide range of different types of spatial models, in particular complex spatial models, spatial point process models and hierarchical models. Data examples will mainly be related to ecological studies but the course is equally relevant to researchers from other fields and in-depth knowledge of ecology is not expected. Teaching will be a combination of lectures, computer sessions and discussions. Participants are encouraged to discuss their own data sets with the instructors. Instructors Janine Illian, (University of St. Andrews) Hĺvard Rue, (University of Trondheim, Norway) Sigrunn H. Sřrbye, (University of Tromsř, Norway) For enquiries please contact: Rhona Rodger Centre for Research into Ecological and Environmental Modelling University of St Andrews The Observatory, Buchanan Gardens St. Andrews Scotland KY16 9LZ Tel:+44 1334 461842 Fax: +44 1334 461800 Email: rhona AT mcs.st-and.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Further details on the course may be found on the webpage: http://www.ruwpa.st-and.ac.uk/workshops/INLA/INLAoverview.html and further information on INLA may be found here: http://www.r-inla.org/ We will regularly up-date the course webpage with further details. Please feel free to contact us if you have any further questions- for contact details see the webpage. Best wishes Janine -- Dr Janine B Illian janine AT mcs.st-and.ac.uk RCUK academic fellow Centre for Research into Ecological and Environmental Modelling The Observatory, University of St Andrews, Scotland KY16 9LZ Tel: (0)1334-461803 Fax: (0)1334-461800 -- Dr Janine B Illian janine AT mcs.st-and.ac.uk RCUK academic fellow Centre for Research into Ecological and Environmental Modelling The Observatory, University of St Andrews, Scotland KY16 9LZ Tel: (0)1334-461803 Fax: (0)1334-461800 The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Bob McKInney From: John and Sue Gregoire <khmo AT EMPACC.NET> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:14:22 -0400 Passing this along on behalf of Chita and Laurie. J At 9:46 PM on October 26, 2011 my father, Master Bander Robert G. McKinney went to his eternal home in God's care. Thank you to all who have been such an integral part of this man's extraordinary life. Warmly, Laurie (McKinney) Dirkx -- John and Sue Gregoire Field Ornithologists Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory 5373 Fitzgerald Road Burdett,NY 14818-9626 Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/ "Conserve and Create Habitat" archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: Request about band sizes From: Robert Frey <bif AT KLAMATHBIRD.ORG> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:49:54 -0700 Hi Marcin and all, The Black-faced Grassquit and Lesser Antillean Bullfinch (possibly very similar to Barbados Bullfinch - a large collection might have specimens of both to measure) recommended band sizes are listed at the USGS Bird Banding Laboratory website http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/bbl/MANUAL/speclist.cfm. Band internal diameters are also listed elsewhere at the website. The BBL's website is a rich resource for banding/ringing information - check it out! thanks, Bob Robert I. Frey Biologist & Banding Project Leader 541-621-5690 (mobile) bif AT klamathbird.org Klamath Bird Observatory P.O. Box 758 Ashland, Oregon 97520 541-201-0866 (office) 541-201-1009 (fax) www.KlamathBird.org -----Original Message----- From: Bird Bander's Forum [mailto:BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Marcin Faber Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 12:09 PM To: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDBAND] Request about band sizes Dear Bird Banders, What size of bands (internal diameter is important) are used for the following species: - Barbados Bullfinch (Loxigilla barbadensis) & - Black-faced Grassquit (Tiaris bicolor) Thank you in advance for your help. Best regards, Marcin Faber www.colour-rings.eu archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: Banding Pliers From: Charlie <cmmbirds AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:13:42 -0700 I had Thomas restore 2 pair of pliers, which had broken pins Hi folks, I had Thomas restore 2 pair of pliers, which had broken pins, worn handle covers, some rust, etc etc.  He emailed me upon their receipt and suggested I have him install different size pins in the 2 pair.  I had him do so, and they both work great (look great, too).  I use one pair for 0a-0.  I use the other for 1b-1a.  I use either for 1.  It's been a year, hundreds of birds, and no bent pins at all.   Charlie Muise Lamar County, GA ________________________________ From: Manuel Grosselet To: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDBAND] Banding Pliers When the Bird Banding lab will stop to buy clos Hi Thomas and folks When the Bird Banding lab will stop to buy close band...We loose lot of time opening the band, and currently I have trouble with 0A size, the pliers overlap each extremity, so it's not but end but overlap band... For my resident species I use open band, much quicker, easier. And the band come with plastic string of different color so very easy and quick to id the right size just by color... I broke three pins this year, by luck I bought 5 pliers.. But...some 1b and 1 A band are very hard.... All the best Manuel www.tierradeaves.com ________________________________ De: Thomas Fowler Para: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Enviado: Lunes, 24 de octubre, 2011 14:02:27 Asunto: [BIRDBAND] Banding Pliers Greetings, I would like to thank everyone that has ordered banding pliers or recommended me to other banders as a source of banding pliers.  My goal is to provide the best banding pliers available at a reasonable cost while having some fun along the way. For the first time in several years I have managed to complete all the pliers I have in my queue and have some time to work on something new.  Presently, I am able to custom build pliers from size 0A to 7B.  However, I have received several inquiries regarding pliers for size 8 (Internal closed diameter 0.688 inches or 17.6 mm).  This is too large for the basic pliers that I buy and remanufacture. My question is how many of you folks would be interested in these larger plier? I am trying to gauge how much effort to put into this new product and if you would be willing to pay more than my standard $65/pair that I now charge. If you are interested, please let me know.  To anyone else thinking of ordering smaller pliers, now would be a good time since my backlog is zero.  I can deliver more quickly than my normal 4 to 6 weeks. Thanks again, Tom Fowler Ph: 607-272-0406 Website: http://www.yellowbirdlabs.com/ archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Request about band sizes From: Marcin Faber <marfaber AT POCZTA.ONET.PL> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 21:09:01 +0200 Dear Bird Banders, What size of bands (internal diameter is important) are used for the following species: - Barbados Bullfinch (Loxigilla barbadensis) & - Black-faced Grassquit (Tiaris bicolor) Thank you in advance for your help. Best regards, Marcin Faber www.colour-rings.eu archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Bow nets available for sale From: John and Sue Gregoire <khmo AT EMPACC.NET> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:31:03 -0400 I regret that the buyer for the large and medium bows has been unable to complete the sale. Therefore, we are once again offering these bows. One of you passed the info on to a gentleman from the Rochester area off list but I have misplaced his email. Would appreciate forwarding to him again. I am sorry for the inconvenience to all and never expected to be doing this again. The bows will need re-netting and we may have some additional equipment to throw in with the bows -extra springs, a Dho-ghaza rig and perhaps some mesh. To be clear, buyer must present a master personal permit. Many thanks for your patience, John -- John and Sue Gregoire Field Ornithologists Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory 5373 Fitzgerald Road Burdett,NY 14818-9626 Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/ "Conserve and Create Habitat" archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: Banding Pliers From: Manuel Grosselet <birdinnet AT YAHOO.COM.MX> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:10:34 -0700 When the Bird Banding lab will stop to buy clos Hi Thomas and folks When the Bird Banding lab will stop to buy close band...We loose lot of time opening the band, and currently I have trouble with 0A size, the pliers overlap each extremity, so it's not but end but overlap band... For my resident species I use open band, much quicker, easier. And the band come with plastic string of different color so very easy and quick to id the right size just by color... I broke three pins this year, by luck I bought 5 pliers.. But...some 1b and 1 A band are very hard.... All the best Manuel www.tierradeaves.com ________________________________ De: Thomas Fowler Para: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Enviado: Lunes, 24 de octubre, 2011 14:02:27 Asunto: [BIRDBAND] Banding Pliers Greetings, I would like to thank everyone that has ordered banding pliers or recommended me to other banders as a source of banding pliers.  My goal is to provide the best banding pliers available at a reasonable cost while having some fun along the way. For the first time in several years I have managed to complete all the pliers I have in my queue and have some time to work on something new.  Presently, I am able to custom build pliers from size 0A to 7B.  However, I have received several inquiries regarding pliers for size 8 (Internal closed diameter 0.688 inches or 17.6 mm).  This is too large for the basic pliers that I buy and remanufacture. My question is how many of you folks would be interested in these larger plier? I am trying to gauge how much effort to put into this new product and if you would be willing to pay more than my standard $65/pair that I now charge. If you are interested, please let me know.  To anyone else thinking of ordering smaller pliers, now would be a good time since my backlog is zero.  I can deliver more quickly than my normal 4 to 6 weeks. Thanks again, Tom Fowler Ph: 607-272-0406 Website: http://www.yellowbirdlabs.com/ archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Banding Pliers From: Thomas Fowler <tlf11 AT CORNELL.EDU> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:02:27 -0400 Greetings, I would like to thank everyone that has ordered banding pliers or recommended me to other banders as a source of banding pliers. My goal is to provide the best banding pliers available at a reasonable cost while having some fun along the way. For the first time in several years I have managed to complete all the pliers I have in my queue and have some time to work on something new. Presently, I am able to custom build pliers from size 0A to 7B. However, I have received several inquiries regarding pliers for size 8 (Internal closed diameter 0.688 inches or 17.6 mm). This is too large for the basic pliers that I buy and remanufacture. My question is how many of you folks would be interested in these larger plier? I am trying to gauge how much effort to put into this new product and if you would be willing to pay more than my standard $65/pair that I now charge. If you are interested, please let me know. To anyone else thinking of ordering smaller pliers, now would be a good time since my backlog is zero. I can deliver more quickly than my normal 4 to 6 weeks. Thanks again, Tom Fowler Ph: 607-272-0406 Website: http://www.yellowbirdlabs.com/ archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Banding in Ecuador From: Derek J Matthews <Derek.J.Matthews AT SPECTRUM-CANADA.COM> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:31:00 -0700 Hi Guys, I have a big birding trip to the Galapagos and Ecuador coming up at the end of November for a month and was wondering if anyone knew of any banding stations they could put me in touch with down there. Any info would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Derek Derek Matthews Vancouver Avian research centre Vancouver, BC, Canada www.birdvancouver.com Derekbirdvancouver.com archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Inland Bird Banding 2011 meeting/Call for Papers From: H Thomas Bartlett <hthomas.bartlett AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:34:36 -0400 *Inland Bird Banding Association 2011 Conference Call for Papers* The Inland Bird Banding Association’s Annual Conference and General Meeting will be held December 2-4 in Weslaco, Texas. The meeting will be hosted by the Rio Grande Joint Venture, Santa Ana National Wildlife Refuge, Estero Llano Grande State Park, and Valley Nature Center. The meeting will include a Friday evening presentation, Saturday morning banding (weather permitting), an afternoon paper and poster session, and evening banquet, and Sunday banding. Papers on any aspect of bird banding are invited. All presenters are encouraged to submit an abstract for the meeting program and subsequently for publication in North American Bird Bander. Presentations are to be planned for 20 minutes including questions. Papers will be limited by available time; although final abstracts are not due until November 15, 2011, an email pre-proposal is requested no later than October 31. Please submit abstracts electronically as a MS Word or Word Perfect document to mgustafson AT abcbirds.org. Or if need be, mail a hardcopy to the following address: Mary Gustafson Coordinator, Rio Grande Joint Venture 4211 Rio Grande Lane Mission, Texas 78572 More information will be mailed in early October to IBBA Members. For nonmembers, please contact Mary Gustafson for a registration form and further information at mgustafson AT abcbirds.org or 956-519-0711. Or check the Inland Bird Banding Association webpage at https://www.ibbainfo.org Tom Bartlett IBBA President -- H. Thomas Bartlett Tiffin, Ohio hthomas.bartlett AT gmail.com archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Hilton Pond 10/11/11 (Ode To Goldenrod) From: "Bill Hilton Jr. (RESEARCH)" <research AT HILTONPOND.ORG> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 07:01:07 -0400 Each October, one of our favorite natural pastimes is to venture into a patch of Goldenrod to see how many pollinators and predators we can find. "This Week at Hilton Pond" we located--and photographed--some little arthropods we'd not encountered before, including a spider species we've been seeking for years. To view our latest "Ode to Goldenrod" photo essay, please visit the installment for 11-21 October 2011 at http://www.hiltonpond.org/ThisWeek111011.html While there don't forget to scroll down for a list of all birds banded and recaptured, including some fall arrivals from the far north. There are also a few miscellaneous nature notes. Happy (Autumn) Nature Watching! BILL ========= RESEARCH PROGRAM c/o BILL HILTON JR. Executive Director Hilton Pond Center for Piedmont Natural History 1432 DeVinney Road, York, South Carolina 29745 USA office & cell (803) 684-5852 fax (803) 684-0255 Please visit our web sites (courtesy of Comporium.net): Hilton Pond Center for Piedmont Natural History at http://www.hiltonpond.org "Operation RubyThroat: The Hummingbird Project" at http://www.rubythroat.org ================== archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: migration folllow up From: Manuel Grosselet <birdinnet AT YAHOO.COM.MX> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 17:32:45 -0700 today 199 birds in our 9 mistnets...Lot of COYE (82), some GRC Hi Guys today 199 birds in our 9 mistnets...Lot of COYE (82), some GRCA (37) and any particular surprise... I get a recapture of COYE coming back one year later...But everything normal... Some RBGR and INBU crossing through.... All the best Manuel www.tierradeaves.com archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: result one year veracruz From: Manuel Grosselet <birdinnet AT YAHOO.COM.MX> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:56:40 -0700 Just one year banding in Veracruz here the results on n Hi All Just one year banding in Veracruz here the results on new birds banded, Just the 15 more commun species.. Species                                2010    2011    total Setophaga petechia                193    2355    2548 Icteria virens                            18    1949     1967 Icterus spurius spurius            62    1547     1609 Geothlypis trichas                  543    833      1376 Melospiza lincolnii                  637    253       890 Sporophila torqueola             189    510       699 Parkesia noveboracensis       111    556      667 Catharus ustulatus                    1    604      605 Passerina ciris                       115    444      559 Passerina cyanea                 195    252      447 Hirundo rustica                                319      319 Icterus galbula                           4    272     276 Dumetella carolinensis          134    133      267 Geothlypis philadelphia              1    263    264 Cardellina pusilla                       87    146    233 Finally we got 15972 new birds, and 1710 recaptures totaling: 17682 birds captured. of 161 species All year round we have a banding effort of 9,460 hours mistnet, 1.87 bird per hour mistnet...inlude summer winter and both migrations. And we are following today around 110 birds..the first savannah Sparrow show up, and Lincoln's Sparrow increase. Baltimore Oriole, Yellow-breasted Chat and Yellow Warbler get down or almost none.. Any comments welcome.... All the best Manuel www.tierradeaves.com archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Request for assistance with climate change vulnerability assessment From: "Hostetler, Jeffrey" <HostetlerJ AT SI.EDU> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:48:27 -0400 Dear Bird Banders, Scott Sillett and I are working on a climate change vulnerability assessment for forest-breeding migrant songbirds of southeastern and mid-Atlantic United States. We are soliciting opinions from bird experts on habitat associations and potential climate sensitivities for a subset of these species. We would greatly appreciate it if you could complete our questionnaire form for the species with which you are familiar. Each species' questionnaire takes less than 5 minutes. You can access it here: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/S7ZJM25 If you choose to do more than one species, you do not have to finish the survey in one sitting. If you go back to the survey from the same computer and browser it should allow you to continue the survey. If you click on the link from another computer, you'll have to fill in your personal information again. Thank you very much for your time and assistance. Please contact me if you have any questions, and feel free to forward this email to anyone who might be interested in participating. Best regards, Jeff Jeffrey A. Hostetler Postdoctoral Fellow Migratory Bird Center Smithsonian Conservation Biology Institute National Zoological Park MRC 5503, Washington, DC 20013-7012 202-633-0550 hostetlerj AT si.edu www.nationalzoo.si.edu archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Wing island banding blog From: Sue Finnegan <suefinnegan AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 02:56:56 +0000 I've just updated my blog for the past week if anyone is interested in checking it out- http://www.capecodbander.blogspot.com Sue Finnegan Wing Island Banding Station Cape Cod Museum of Natural History Brewster MA 02631 archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: report for Sunday 10/16/11 morning banding at Clear Springs Ranch From: David Elwonger <davidelwonger AT MSN.COM> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:08:51 -0600 Cobirders: Sunday 10/16/11 was a beautiful morning banding at Clear Springs Ranch (CSR).* The birds were fairly typical for this time of the season, except for the late Lazuli Bunting. We banded 32 new birds of 11 different species. We had 4 recaptures from earlier this Fall, plus one Gambel's White-crowned Sparrow banded as an After-Hatch Year Sex Unknown on 10/23/10 Our list: Ruby-crowned Kinglet, 3 Lincoln's Sparrow, 2 Gambel's White-crowned Sparrow, 13 Song Sparrow, 2 Hermit Thrush, 1 Clay-colored Sparrow, 1 Orange-crowned Warbler, 1 Wilson's Warbler, 1 Lazuli Bunting, 1 Spotted Towhee, 4 Chipping Sparrow, 3 Species 11 Plus Recaptures: This Fall, Local: Hermit Thrush 1, Gambel's White-crowned Sparrow 2. 1 Gambel's White-crowned Sparrow Banded at CSR 10/23/10 as an After-hatch-year Unknown Best wishes, Dave David M Elwonger Master Bird Bander and Naturalist Who roosts at 8500' near Woodland Park CO *Clear Springs Ranch is an area managed by Colorado Springs Utilities, about 10 miles south of Colorado Springs. Take I25 to exit 123, follow signs to parking lot east of side of freeway. It is open on a limited basis (walk-in only) to the general public. archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Metro Beach banding report - October 12 & 14, 2011 From: Allen Chartier <amazilia3 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:41:51 -0400 Birders and Banders, I have updated my blog with results, highlights, and photos from two banding sessions conducted on Wednesday October 12 and Friday October 14, at Metro Beach Metropark, Macomb Co., Michigan (42*34'29.9"N, 82*48'31.5"W). Numbers were down as expected, but there were some very interesting captures, some non avian. Check out my blog at: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/ -- Allen T. Chartier Inkster, Michigan Email: amazilia3 AT gmail.com Website: www.amazilia.net Blog: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/ archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: Re: WIWA recovery From: Mike Bishop <bishop AT ALMA.EDU> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:33:24 -0400 Very cool, Manuel. We'll try to send some of our Michigan birds your way as well! Happy banding! Mike Bishop Instructor Bio Dept Alma College Director of the Alma College Bird Observatory 614 W. Superior Alma, MI 48801 989-463-7061 ----- Original Message ----- From: Manuel Grosselet To: BIRDBAND AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 16:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [BIRDBAND] WIWA recovery Finally, I was thinking it was a myth to have recapture in th Hi Guys, Finally, I was thinking it was a myth to have recapture in this part of the world. I need to have 17300 bird to get one...imagine.. I get today (Oct 15, 2011) this little guy.. WIWA male Adult.. with band 2620 88129... I band this bird like Cardellina pusilla pileolata, with a cap of 15 mm, very shiny, without orange tinge on supra lores...and fairly bright bird... this bird were banded in BRADDOCK BAY BIRD OBSERVATORY, MONROE COUNTY, NEW YORK, USA... banded 09/12/2010 Thanks banders of Braddock Bay... Welcome to Veracruz, Mexico...And please, I follow to keep an eye open and my misnets. All the best Manuel www.tierradeaves.com archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html Subject: WIWA recovery From: Manuel Grosselet <birdinnet AT YAHOO.COM.MX> Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:44:43 -0700 Finally, I was thinking it was a myth to have recapture in th Hi Guys, Finally, I was thinking it was a myth to have recapture in this part of the world. I need to have 17300 bird to get one...imagine.. I get today (Oct 15, 2011)  this little guy.. WIWA male Adult.. with band 2620 88129... I band this bird like Cardellina pusilla pileolata, with a cap of 15 mm, very shiny, without orange tinge on supra lores...and fairly bright bird... this bird were banded in BRADDOCK BAY BIRD OBSERVATORY, MONROE COUNTY, NEW YORK, USA... banded 09/12/2010 Thanks banders of Braddock Bay... Welcome to Veracruz, Mexico...And please, I follow to keep an eye open and my misnets. All the best Manuel www.tierradeaves.com archives and subscription options can be found at: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdband.html