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20 Nov Re: Tucson hawk [Justin Bosler ] 20 Nov Tucson hawk [Jim Pike ] 18 Nov Re: non-native plants change colour of Waxwings [Kevin McGowan ] 18 Nov Re: non-native plants change colour of Waxwings [John Walters ] 18 Nov non-native plants change colour of Waxwings ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 15 Nov Xantus's and Craveri's Murrelets vocalisations [Michael Force ] 14 Nov Kumlien's and Thayer's Gulls [Greg Neise ] 12 Nov Pearl River Woodpecker Wing ratios [Robert O'Brien ] 13 Nov Re: another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe [Harry Lehto ] 12 Nov Re: another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe [Kevin McGowan ] 12 Nov Re: another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe [Erik Johnson ] 12 Nov Re: Any comments on these? [John Puschock ] 12 Nov Re: another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe [Dave Appleton ] 12 Nov Re: Any comments on these? [Michael Dossett ] 12 Nov Re: Any comments on these? [Mike Collins ] 12 Nov Re: another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 12 Nov Re: another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe [Jesse Ellis ] 10 Nov Re: Re[BIRDWG01] ally odd GoldFinch-like bird found here in the Bay area [] 10 Nov Pearl River WO Video [] 10 Nov another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 9 Nov Re: Re[BIRDWG01] ally odd GoldFinch-like bird found here in the Bay area [Irk ] 9 Nov No Subject [Daniel Lane ] 9 Nov Re[BIRDWG01] ally odd GoldFinch-like bird found here in the Bay area [Irk ] 9 Nov Feather tract question [Joseph Morlan ] 9 Nov Any comments on these? [Mike Collins ] 3 Nov RFI: Heterochromia in eyes and legs of birds [Floyd Hayes ] 2 Nov Hawk ID problem ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 1 Nov Possible hybrid nighthawk [Nathan Pieplow ] 30 Oct Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL [Steven Mlodinow ] 30 Oct Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL [Steven Mlodinow ] 30 Oct Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL [Jim Pike ] 30 Oct Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora? [Brian Sullivan ] 30 Oct General ID discussion question [Pastor Al Schirmacher ] 30 Oct Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL [Greg Neise ] 30 Oct Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparrow in New Jersey [] 30 Oct Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora? [Michael Force ] 30 Oct Re: odd shorebird Brooklyn NY [Bill Rudden ] 30 Oct A Juvenile Spizella Sparrow in New Jersey [Bill Elrick ] 29 Oct Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL [Zoe Rarestorm ] 29 Oct odd shorebird Brooklyn NY [shane Blodgett ] 29 Oct Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL [] 29 Oct A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL [Greg Neise ] 29 Oct Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? [Chris Corben ] 29 Oct Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? [Steven Mlodinow ] 29 Oct Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? [Kenn Kaufman ] 29 Oct Sonora Petrel Photo size [Robert O'Brien ] 29 Oct Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? - further post [Matthew O'Brien ] 28 Oct Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? [Kimball Garrett ] 28 Oct Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? [Brian Sullivan ] 28 Oct Snowy vs. Kentish Plovers [Ian Paulsen ] 28 Oct Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? ["Lethaby, Nick" ] 28 Oct Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? [Matthew O'Brien ] 27 Oct CA peep [Matt Sadowski ] 27 Oct CA Least Sand [Julian Hough ] 27 Oct Re: Least/Long-toed. [Julian Hough ] 27 Oct Least/Long-toed. [Gavin Bieber ] 27 Oct Re: Bright Winter Plumage (was: ID tip: Le Conte's Sparrow) [Jesse Ellis ] 27 Oct Re: Long-toed Stint/Least Sandpiper [Jim Pike ] 27 Oct Long-toed Stint/Least Sandpiper [Peter Pyle ] 26 Oct late Empidonax flycatcher in New Brunsick (Canada) [Stuart Tingley ] 24 Oct Re: Golden-Plover Sp., South Carolina, USA, 7/4/09 [Kevin Karlson ] 24 Oct Re: SC Golden Plover [Lee G R Evans ] 23 Oct Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 [Julian Hough ] 23 Oct Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 [Peter Pyle ] 23 Oct Re: SC Golden Plover ["Pratt, Doug" ] 23 Oct Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 [Steven Mlodinow ] 23 Oct Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 [phil barnett ] 22 Oct Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 [Julian Hough ] 23 Oct Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 22 Oct Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 [Ken Blankenship ] 22 Oct Re: Golden-Plover Sp., South Carolina, USA, 7/4/09 [Lee G R Evans ] 22 Oct Golden-Plover Sp., South Carolina, USA, 7/4/09 [Ken Blankenship ] 21 Oct Re: New paper on predicting vagrancy [Ted Floyd ] 21 Oct Thermaling Nightjar? [Martin Reid ] 21 Oct Unknown Dark Mantled Gull [Philip Chaon ] 21 Oct Unknown Dark Mantled Gull [Philip Chaon ] Subject: Re: Tucson hawk From: Justin Bosler <justin.bosler AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:20:52 -0500 Jim, You are absolutely correct. This is certainly NOT a juvenile Broad-winged Hawk, and in my opinion, it best fits juvenile Red-tailed Hawk. In addition to all of the fine points that you mentioned, it lacks the narrow dark malar stripe, clean white throat, and typically thin, white supercilium of young Broadwings, and appears quite chunky in size (regardless of fluffed feathers) with a forward projecting(?) posture I've never seen in a perched Broadwing. Good hawking, Justin On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Jim Pike wrote: > Hi, > > A recently-posted hawk on the Arizona Field Ornithologist's photo > documentation website is identified as a hatch-year Broad-winged Hawk. > However, the presence of pale irides, a grayish cere, conspicuously barred > secondaries and greater coverts, white-spotted scapulars, and at least 7 > narrow, dark, evenly-spaced tail bands effectively rules out Broad-winged, > as well as Gray and Red-shouldered Hawk. It seems to me that most > everything points to hatch-year Red-tailed Hawk, but given what can and > can't be seen in the photos, I'm not sure Swainson's Hawk isn't in > contention. Any opinions? > > http://www.azfo.org/gallery/2009/html5/BWHA_Tucson_Stejskal_20091119.html > > Jim Pike > Huntington Beach, CA > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > -- Justin Bosler Official Raptor Counter and Interpretive Biologist Holiday Beach Migration Observatory Amherstburg, Ontario Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Tucson hawk From: Jim Pike <jpike44 AT EARTHLINK.NET> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:28:10 -0700 Hi, A recently-posted hawk on the Arizona Field Ornithologist's photo documentation website is identified as a hatch-year Broad-winged Hawk. However, the presence of pale irides, a grayish cere, conspicuously barred secondaries and greater coverts, white-spotted scapulars, and at least 7 narrow, dark, evenly-spaced tail bands effectively rules out Broad-winged, as well as Gray and Red-shouldered Hawk. It seems to me that most everything points to hatch-year Red-tailed Hawk, but given what can and can't be seen in the photos, I'm not sure Swainson's Hawk isn't in contention. Any opinions? http://www.azfo.org/gallery/2009/html5/BWHA_Tucson_Stejskal_20091119.html Jim Pike Huntington Beach, CA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: non-native plants change colour of Waxwings From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2 AT CORNELL.EDU> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:01:24 -0500 Wow, that page is an amazing collection of misinformation! Another example of why the internet could use an editor! In North America I suspect Bohemian Waxwings in molt and the honeysuckles at fault probably don't overlap. Kevin At 06:42 AM 11/18/2009, Norman D.van Swelm wrote: >In a very interesting contribution Bill Hilton Jr. reveals a colour change >in the waxy tail-tips of >Cedar Waxwings Bombycilla cedrorum in South Carolina caused by eating >berries of non-native plants, see: > > > >http://www.hiltonpond.org/ThisWeek091111.html > > >Has this phenomenon also been found in Bohemian Waxwing Bombycilla >garrulus and Japanese Waxwing Bombycilla japonica? >Cheers, Norman > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html ***************************************************** Kevin J. McGowan Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Road Ithaca, NY 14850 kjm2 AT cornell.edu http://birds.cornell.edu/crows/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: non-native plants change colour of Waxwings From: John Walters <john-walters AT COX.NET> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:49:20 -0800 Norman D.van Swelm wrote: > In a very interesting contribution Bill Hilton Jr. reveals a colour > change in the waxy tail-tips of > Cedar Waxwings /Bombycilla cedrorum/ in South Carolina caused by > eating berries of non-native plants, see: > > > http://www.hiltonpond.org/ThisWeek091111.html > > > Has this phenomenon also been found in Bohemian Waxwing /Bombycilla > garrulus /and Japanese Waxwing /Bombycilla japonica/? I don't know about the other waxwings, but when I was living in south-central Pennsylvania back in the mid-1990s, I used to see Yellow-breasted Chats (/Icteria virens/) with bright orange in place of the yellow breast (mentioned in passing in Dunn and Garrett's /Warblers /(Peterson Field Guides series). Some other species may also show this sort of diet-related color shift. John Walters Bonita, CA john-walters AT cox.net Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: non-native plants change colour of Waxwings From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:42:22 +0100 In a very interesting contribution Bill Hilton Jr. reveals a colour change in the waxy tail-tips of Cedar Waxwings Bombycilla cedrorum in South Carolina caused by eating berries of non-native plants, see: http://www.hiltonpond.org/ThisWeek091111.html Has this phenomenon also been found in Bohemian Waxwing Bombycilla garrulus and Japanese Waxwing Bombycilla japonica? Cheers, Norman Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Xantus's and Craveri's Murrelets vocalisations From: Michael Force <pagodroma AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:32:00 -0700 Birders, Does anyone have any insights into the at sea vocalisations of scrippsi and hypoleucus Xantus's Murrelets and how they compare to Craveri's? I'm referring to at sea and not at the nest site. In my experience, what I hear never seems to match the descriptions in the popular field guides (series of piping whistles; a cicada-like rattle; or variations thereof) and my search for on-line recordings has turned up nothing. The common call I hear is what I believe to be an alarm call attributed to scrippsi Xantus's Murrelets as our research ship barrels down on the startled bird. It's obviously difficult to describe bird sounds in the written form but I'll give it a shot. This call can best be described as a fairly loud, three parted chortling whistle,"cheedle-de-'l'up" accented on the first syllable and falling abruptly and truncated at the end. This call always reminds me of the flight call of Cassin's Finch. Indeed, when I first heard this call off Vancouver Island I was looking around for a Cassin's Finch and was surprised to get a brief glimpse of a couple of Xantus's Murrelets(!) flushing off the water (unknown subspecies but believed to be scrippsi). This could possibly match the "piping whistle" described in the most recent edition of the Nat Geo Western guide. The description closes with the vague statement that the "calls of nominate race apparently differ". The Sibley guide goes a step further and attempts to describe both subspecies, but his description doesn't match this vocalisation at all, as far as I can tell. These guides also fail to point out whether their descriptions refer to at sea birds or on the colony. thanks, Michael Force currently aboard NOAA ship McArthur II Southern California Bight Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Kumlien's and Thayer's Gulls From: Greg Neise <gregneise AT ILBIRDS.COM> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:57:58 -0700 Hi all, It's that time of year again, and a trip to northern Illinois' gull hotspot yesterday (North Point Marina), resulted in some pictures of interesting gulls. We have a spirited discussion going at IBF that I thought readers of this list might find interesting: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=28977.0 Cheers, -greg neise Berwyn, IL Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Pearl River Woodpecker Wing ratios From: Robert O'Brien <baro AT PDX.EDU> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:45:38 -0800 Based upon my preliminary analysis, Profile2X.jpg now uploaded to http://www.rdrop.com/users/green/PearlR (this is a Unix address and is case sensitive) The profiles of RHWO & IBWO, surprisingly are not greatly dissimilar, with RHWO actually having a slightly greater length to width ratio as shown. These numbers are preliminary & should be measured more carefully, especially RHWO, although the two photos used so far are high quality. Further, the Pearl River Bird is completely consistent with the ratio for IBWO, also as shown. I haven't had a chance to credit these photos, other than the ones from David Hemmings. Of course, for a bird flying at right angles to the field of view, the wing width will be accurate, but the length will depend upon variation from vertical. As shown by the bars on the frames, 6 of the Pearl River images show about the same dimension in both directions, consistent with vertical position of the wings. Maybe this was good luck? IBWO photographers could certainly use some. Bob OBrien Carver OR On Thu, 12 Nov 2009, Michael Dossett wrote: > I've been resisting replying to this thread but temptation has gotten the better of me and I'm going to bite. I don't think the second and third videos were at all compelling but the first was definitely intriguing with the obvious woodpecker-like flight and the white on the trailing edge of the wing. Having said that I have a real hard time seeing this bird as a Red-headed Woodpecker. Granted, the lighting and resolution absolutely suck for this, but I don't see any hint of a white belly or contrast between the belly and head in terms of color. What little bit of white I *might* be seeing on the tail that could just be glare is also not consistently in the right location for Red-headed Woodpecker. In the first still at the link below the white appears to be at the base of the tail on the outer edges with black in the middle. In the second image you can see what could be interpreted as white UTCs, but they contrast against what appears to be a dark belly. Any other stills that I have looked at from the video that look like there might be white on the tail are so poorly resolved that they look more like artifacts than anything else. I don't know what this bird is, but I don't see a case to be made for Red-headed Woodpecker. FWIW I tried following the link that Bob OBrien posted the other day and came up with a 404 Not Found message. Michael Michael Dossett Corvallis, Oregon www.Mdossettphoto.com phainopepla AT yahoo.com --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Mike Collins wrote: > From: Mike Collins > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Any comments on these? > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 12:10 PM > Some have suggested that the bird > in the 11/5 video is a RHWO, while others are adamant that > it can't be a RHWO. Due to glare from the sun, subtle > hints of white may not be reliable. Since the bird was above > the trees, it's apparently not possible to estimate > wingspan. Is it possible to resolve the ID based on shape? > Comparisons with a PIWO (below the dashed line) are posted > here: > http://fishcrow.com/stills5nov09.jpg > I would not expect the profiles of PIWO and RHWO > to appear so similar, but I have never looked into this > issue and don't yet have any suitable RHWO footage for > comparison.  > Mike CollinsPearl River, > LA > > > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe From: Harry Lehto <hlehto AT UTU.FI> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:40:51 +0200 Dear All, I have been watching and photographing mallards for nearly two decades, and in particular wintering birds as they congregate in the few remaining bodies of open water as the rest of Finland goes into a sort of a dark deep freeze. Amongst various color variations I tend to run into several of these apparent "intersex" birds every year. Now one could suggest several causes for these mixed characters; genetic, hormonal and environmental. The most common explanation seems to be that these birds are "old females". If this is the case then one should be able to see such females turning into males. Correct? If so how fast does this take place? There was one "intesex" bird that appeared in the same flock year after year for something like 3-4 years and was a "typical" of these birds and did not show really any noticeable changes in the details of the plumage over these few years. Unless this was an extremely old female, I would have expected to see a variation in the plumage of this bird as time passed, but I could not see any. One shot of this bird is shown on the top of http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/color/anapla_koirasnaaras.shtml Most of the "intesex" mallards appears to have dark patterns on the bill, suggesting a female, but sometimes they can be quite male like such as http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/platy/667_6739_web.jpg The details of plumage patterns go from nearly pure males to nearly pure looking females, the tail curl may is sometimes missing (female type) and sometimes male-like as in http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/platy/665_6593_web.jpg but usually intermediate. The base color of the bill can be male like yellow to female like orange. I am quite puzzled whether hormonal variations only explain the change in the bill patterns, tail curls or is their presence mainly due to differences in the genome. As for possible truely gynandromorphic or chimeric birds, I think I have ran across these a couple of times. Both in the links below had male heads, bills and rear wings and "middle parts", and female breast, rear parts, and belly. Somewhat odd looking birds. http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/platy/291_9146_ed.jpg http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/platy/_D3A2485_web.jpg These birds had similar left and right sides. Other pictures of some "intesex birds" showing some of the variation can be found at http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/platy/ Any comments welcome Regards Harry J Lehto Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2 AT CORNELL.EDU> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:52:36 -0500 At 04:11 PM 11/12/2009, Dave Appleton wrote: >Can anyone clarify (in layman's terms) what the difference is between >gynandromorphs and intersexes? ... For birds described as intersex I have >encountered several examples of ducks (mostly on the internet, just >occasionally in the flesh) which apparently show female ducks (with >female-type bills) and varying extents of male plumage features. ... Can anyone find any literature on "intersexes" at all except ducks on the internet? I've tried to follow up on this topic and haven't been able to find a thing. There has to be something in the poultry literature, but I haven't found it yet (I'll admit I don't know it well, though). I just get this feeling that, although logical, intersexes could be another one of those things that everyone knows about but that doesn't really exist (at least with the explanation given). Kevin Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe From: Erik Johnson <ejohn33 AT TIGERS.LSU.EDU> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:46:37 -0600 In Neotropical manakins, it is fairly common to see old females (based on banded individuals) that show male-like characters. I think that this is generally assumed to be due to a decrease in hormonal controls to make a bird female (since male is the starting point developmentally in birds). I think this is quite different than gynandromorphy, which I understand to be a genetic abnormality that takes place very early in development (between 8 and 64 cells in bilateral gynadromorphy and a bit later in mosaic gynandromorphy). I think when male and female characters are bilaterally symmetric, this is a good case for a genetic abnormality, but otherwise I think it would be difficult to prove whether a mix of male and female like characters are due to gynandromorphy or a hormonal deficiency. Cheers, Erik Johnson S Lafayette, LA ejohn33 AT lsu.edu Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Any comments on these? From: John Puschock <g_g_allin AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:12:32 +0000 > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:41:16 -0800 > From: phainopepla AT YAHOO.COM > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Any comments on these? > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > > Having said that I have a real hard time seeing this bird as a Red-headed Woodpecker. Granted, the lighting and resolution > absolutely suck for this, but I don't see any hint of a white belly or contrast between the belly and head in terms of color. I wouldn't give too much weight to the apparent lack of white underparts. The bird is backlit (though correct me if I'm wrong about that) and the sky is bright, so the exposure setting of the camera appears to be incorrect for picking up details in shade. Assuming that it's either an Ivory-billed or a Red-headed (which I currently believe it is, FWIW), it should have white on the leading edge of the underside of the wing. There are a few frames where there appears to be a lighter leading edge, but even then, it's very difficult to see. The rest of the underparts appear to be shaded as well, and therefore, it isn't surprising that a white belly doesn't show, particularly given other aspects of the video. Take a look at the first and last photos of Red-headeds at http://pewit.blogspot.com/2008/05/red-headed-woodpeckers.html. The birds are much closer to the camera, and the white belly is obvious, but it does illustrate the difference in apparent brightness between the secondaries and other white parts when a Red-headed is backlit. The last photo explains, IMO, why the tail appears as it does in the Nov 5 video, particularly the second frame shown at http://fishcrow.com/stills5nov09.jpg. The extent of white in the secondaries also looks to be better for Red-headed, as well as flight style, though obviously I can only infer the flight style of Ivory-billeds from written descriptions. John Puschock Seattle, WA g_g_allin AT hotmail.com http://www.zbirdtours.com & http://www.birdtreks.com _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe From: Dave Appleton <appleton.dave AT GOOGLEMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:11:37 -0000 Can anyone clarify (in layman's terms) what the difference is between gynandromorphs and intersexes? The only instances I recall coming across gynandromorphy discussed in birds (I've not witnessed it personally) is where a bird shows male characteristics on one side and female characteristics on the other, i.e. bilateral gynandromorphy, which appears not to be the case with Norman's Shoveler, although we only get to see one side in the photos. For birds described as intersex I have encountered several examples of ducks (mostly on the internet, just occasionally in the flesh) which apparently show female ducks (with female-type bills) and varying extents of male plumage features. I'm led to believe that these become progressively more male-like in appearance as time goes on but even the most extensively male-like birds I've seen photographed have retained a female-like bill. I notice that Norman's Shoveler has a very masculine bill in contrast. On the other hand I've frequently seen male ducks showing some characteristics of female or juvenile birds at times of year when second calendar-year males have mostly completed moult into adult-like plumage but before I would expect birds to have started moulting into eclipse plumage. I have always assumed these were late-developing immature birds, or in some cases advanced adults entering eclipse, or perhaps birds that have suspended or arrested their post-juvenile moult for some reason. Is there any reason why Norman's Shoveler can't fit into one of these categories? As for Norman's chances of a duck reaching old age being "rather remote for the average duck", well, of course the average duck will only survive to an average age; an old duck has survived to an old age. However, I doubt if an old duck is quite as old as Norman ;-) Cheers, Dave Appleton From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Norman D.van Swelm Sent: 12 November 2009 17:24 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe Dear Jesse, No, alas, these are wild ducks. I also received a message from Floyd Hayes with a similar comment. He recommended to read this article which also contains photographs: http://www.pnas.org/content/100/8/4873.full.pdf+html which I have not done yet. Floyd suggested old age as a possible cause for the unusual plumages of the female ducks to which I could only reply that the chances of reaching old age are rather remote for the average duck. Cheers, Norman >Just curious - have these individuals been proven to be genetic gynandromorphs? They don't seem to show bilateral gynadromorphy, so could this be purely hormonal? Jesse Ellis Dept. of Zoology University of Wisconsin - Madison Madison, WI On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Norman D.van Swelm wrote: A case of gynandromorphy in Gadwall recently found can be seen here: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/abnormal%20plumages/rare%20case%20of%20gyna ndromorphy.htm Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Any comments on these? From: Michael Dossett <phainopepla AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:41:16 -0800 I've been resisting replying to this thread but temptation has gotten the better of me and I'm going to bite. I don't think the second and third videos were at all compelling but the first was definitely intriguing with the obvious woodpecker-like flight and the white on the trailing edge of the wing. Having said that I have a real hard time seeing this bird as a Red-headed Woodpecker. Granted, the lighting and resolution absolutely suck for this, but I don't see any hint of a white belly or contrast between the belly and head in terms of color. What little bit of white I *might* be seeing on the tail that could just be glare is also not consistently in the right location for Red-headed Woodpecker. In the first still at the link below the white appears to be at the base of the tail on the outer edges with black in the middle. In the second image you can see what could be interpreted as white UTCs, but they contrast against what appears to be a dark belly. Any other stills that I have looked at from the video that look like there might be white on the tail are so poorly resolved that they look more like artifacts than anything else. I don't know what this bird is, but I don't see a case to be made for Red-headed Woodpecker. FWIW I tried following the link that Bob OBrien posted the other day and came up with a 404 Not Found message. Michael Michael Dossett Corvallis, Oregon www.Mdossettphoto.com phainopepla AT yahoo.com --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Mike Collins wrote: > From: Mike Collins > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Any comments on these? > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 12:10 PM > Some have suggested that the bird > in the 11/5 video is a RHWO, while others are adamant that > it can't be a RHWO. Due to glare from the sun, subtle > hints of white may not be reliable. Since the bird was above > the trees, it's apparently not possible to estimate > wingspan. Is it possible to resolve the ID based on shape? > Comparisons with a PIWO (below the dashed line) are posted > here: > http://fishcrow.com/stills5nov09.jpg > I would not expect the profiles of PIWO and RHWO > to appear so similar, but I have never looked into this > issue and don't yet have any suitable RHWO footage for > comparison.  > Mike CollinsPearl River, > LA > > > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Any comments on these? From: Mike Collins <cinclodes AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:10:04 -0800 Some have suggested that the bird in the 11/5 video is a RHWO, while others are adamant that it can't be a RHWO. Due to glare from the sun, subtle hints of white may not be reliable. Since the bird was above the trees, it's apparently not possible to estimate wingspan. Is it possible to resolve the ID based on shape? Comparisons with a PIWO (below the dashed line) are posted here: http://fishcrow.com/stills5nov09.jpg I would not expect the profiles of PIWO and RHWO to appear so similar, but I have never looked into this issue and don't yet have any suitable RHWO footage for comparison.  Mike CollinsPearl River, LA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:24:12 +0100 Dear Jesse, No, alas, these are wild ducks. I also received a message from Floyd Hayes with a similar comment. He recommended to read this article which also contains photographs: http://www.pnas.org/content/100/8/4873.full.pdf+html which I have not done yet. Floyd suggested old age as a possible cause for the unusual plumages of the female ducks to which I could only reply that the chances of reaching old age are rather remote for the average duck. Cheers, Norman >Just curious - have these individuals been proven to be genetic gynandromorphs? They don't seem to show bilateral gynadromorphy, so could this be purely hormonal? Jesse Ellis Dept. of Zoology University of Wisconsin - Madison Madison, WI On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Norman D.van Swelm wrote: A case of gynandromorphy in Gadwall recently found can be seen here: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/abnormal%20plumages/rare%20case%20of%20gynandromorphy.htm Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe From: Jesse Ellis <calocitta8 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:23:07 -0600 Just curious - have these individuals been proven to be genetic gynandromorphs? They don't seem to show bilateral gynadromorphy, so could this be purely hormonal? Jesse Ellis Dept. of Zoology University of Wisconsin - Madison Madison, WI On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Norman D.van Swelm wrote: > A case of gynandromorphy in Gadwall recently found can be seen here: > > > http://www.radioactiverobins.com/abnormal%20plumages/rare%20case%20of%20gynandromorphy.htm > > > and a leucistic Great Crested Grebe can be seen here: > > > http://www.radioactiverobins.com/abnormal%20plumages/colour%20mutation.htm > > > Cheers, Norman > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > -- Jesse Ellis Madison, Dane Co, WI Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Re[BIRDWG01] ally odd GoldFinch-like bird found here in the Bay area From: greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:42:53 -0500 Actually, the beast is an American Goldfinch. It is a juvenile with a messed-up head. Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Irk To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:13 am Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Re[BIRDWG01] ally odd GoldFinch-like bird found here in the Bay area I really appreciate everybody's responses! A couple things: The little guy as filmed here at the height of Summer (July 21st), so Winter plummage heories might not work here.On my site you can view the bird in question's ictures in the original size. I say this when closely examined by a several rnithological (I don't know their names, I'll try to get them) there was a retty strong argument that the crest is natural and not an anomaly. Also, he wing bars seem to be wrong for the Goldfinch. Sorry about my weird user ame, it's the one I use everywhere! rich Hayner ttp://old.nabble.com/file/p26279213/20090721_9655.jpg < I have plenty of close up pictures posted on my album site: ttp://imageevent.com/erich_hayner/mysterybird - iew this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Really-odd-GoldFinch-like-bird-found-here-in-the-Bay-area-tp26274513p26279213.html ent from the BIRD ID FRONTIERS mailing list archive at Nabble.com. oin or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html = Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Pearl River WO Video From: baro AT PDX.EDU Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:13:08 -0800 Well, as an on-site proponent of Mike's latest Nov 5 video, I'm a little chargrined to present an enhancement of his IBWO/RHWO video. http://rdrop.com/users/green/RHWO/rhwo.gif This will be an 'I told you so moment' for many but it illustrates several useful things perhaps. I've taken Mikes original frames from the mp4, re-digitized to jpg, enlarged 4x, adjusted the contrast and converted to an animated gif. The gif conversion does introduce blurring relative to a sequence of individual jpgs which are better to view. However gifs are easy to view and can easily be adjusted to any speed. This is shown at 2 frames per second. There are a quite a few frames in which the white of the rump/tail shows characteristics of RHWO which I now believe this bird (unfortunately) was or (I guess) is. This brings up a longstanding question I've had relative to video vs. still images. I've always used a digital still camera with a telephoto, usually 300 mm f/2.8 with a doubler = f/5.6. This can be run either autofocus, manual focus, or hybrid. This is a cumbersome camera but I've gotten used to it. In continuous mode it can take quite a few frames per second (useful for stationary birds) but I usually manual focus between frames for moving birds and with lots of experience can still get probably a couple of images per second. Now a high definition video camera has a similar optical magnification but fewer pixels. It can be deployed much faster and can get more pixels than 'low' def. It has identical issues relative to the use of autofocus or not. What it doesn't have is a lot of light gathering ability since the diameter of the lens is quite small relative to a large telephoto. Therefore the exposures are long and the images blurry relative to a still camera. This blur comes both from bird and camera movement. However, since there are a lot of images, chances are that some will be better than others and therefore useful. With the several seconds contact time on this particular flying woodpecker, I'm sure I could have gotten a few images which were pretty sharply focused and not motion blurred which would have immediately left no doubt about this bird's id. That is, had I not been napping on the ground. So, I guess I'll stick with a still camera. I only hope I can point it at something exciting before I die, or before It dies, assuming It hasn't already. Bob OBrien Carver OR Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: another gynandromorh duck & a leucistic grebe From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:12:21 +0100 A case of gynandromorphy in Gadwall recently found can be seen here: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/abnormal%20plumages/rare%20case%20of%20gynandromorphy.htm and a leucistic Great Crested Grebe can be seen here: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/abnormal%20plumages/colour%20mutation.htm Cheers, Norman Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Re[BIRDWG01] ally odd GoldFinch-like bird found here in the Bay area From: Irk <handyworks AT PACBELL.NET> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 23:13:07 -0800 I really appreciate everybody's responses! A couple things: The little guy was filmed here at the height of Summer (July 21st), so Winter plummage theories might not work here.On my site you can view the bird in question's pictures in the original size. I say this when closely examined by a several ornithological (I don't know their names, I'll try to get them) there was a pretty strong argument that the crest is natural and not an anomaly. Also, the wing bars seem to be wrong for the Goldfinch. Sorry about my weird user name, it's the one I use everywhere! Erich Hayner http://old.nabble.com/file/p26279213/20090721_9655.jpg < I have plenty of close up pictures posted on my album site: http://imageevent.com/erich_hayner/mysterybird -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Really-odd-GoldFinch-like-bird-found-here-in-the-Bay-area-tp26274513p26279213.html Sent from the BIRD ID FRONTIERS mailing list archive at Nabble.com. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: No Subject From: Daniel Lane <barbetboy AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 16:08:09 -0800 If I may: >Clip 1:�http://fishcrow.com/flight5nov09.mp4-- A Red-headed Woodpecker (one can see the white at the base of the tail). >Clip 2:�http://fishcrow.com/flight3nov09.mp4-- Not much to see on this one, but my gut says "Belted Kingfisher" >Clip 3:�http://fishcrow.com/glide3nov09.mp4-- That flat-winged glide has Anhinga written all over it... Good birding, Dan Lane Daniel F. Lane Research Associate LSU Museum of Natural Science 119 Foster Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803-3216 USA Guide Field Guides Inc.: http://www.fieldguides.com/tours.html?area=guides&guide=LANE_D See my website for PDFs of publications and information on my research and artwork : http://www.museum.lsu.edu/lane.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re[BIRDWG01] ally odd GoldFinch-like bird found here in the Bay area From: Irk <handyworks AT PACBELL.NET> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:02:48 -0800 I'm a real newbie here. I only started birding in January of this year and am completely self taught. So. I know it is very common for folk like me to think we have spotted rare species when in fact, it is simply a matter of misidentification. Here's the thing; this little guy showed up on my sock feeder last July, and he's not in any book I've seen or online anywhere, and nobody I've talked to knows what he is either. Maybe you could help? I have plenty of close up pictures posted on my album site: http://imageevent.com/erich_hayner/mysterybird -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Really-odd-GoldFinch-like-bird-found-here-in-the-Bay-area-tp26274513p26274513.html Sent from the BIRD ID FRONTIERS mailing list archive at Nabble.com. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Feather tract question From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 08:09:56 -0800 I have a question about the transverse solid black patch that usually shows above the folded wing on the adult male Northern Pintail. Are these feathers lower scapulars, humeral coverts, or something else? A flight shot showing these feathers is at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/freespirit5/511470529/sizes/o/ Thanks. -- Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu SF Birding Classes start Nov. 3 http://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/ California Bird Records Committee http://www.californiabirds.org/ Western Field Ornithologists http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Any comments on these? From: Mike Collins <cinclodes AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 07:56:59 -0800 Some interesting video clips were obtained in the Pearl River last week. This footage was obtained of distant birds (up to 300 meters) that were not identified in the field. Since the birds were in the general direction of the sun, traces of white could be due to glare. I had the impression that the bird in Clip 1 was a large bird. It seemed to turn to its right in reaction to my shifting position to get the camera on it. The bird in Clip 2 appeared to take off from near a tree that was ranged at 327 meters with a laser. If so, it has a wingspan of approximately 30 inches. Since the bird in Clip 1 remained above the trees, it may not be possible to estimate its wingspan. These videos were obtained from 87 feet above the ground with a high-def camera on full zoom. They have been deinterlaced and cropped, they display at full size (no enlargement or enhancement), the frame rate is 60 Hz, and they play back at half speed.  Clip 1: http://fishcrow.com/flight5nov09.mp4 Clip 2: http://fishcrow.com/flight3nov09.mp4 Clip 3: http://fishcrow.com/glide3nov09.mp4 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: RFI: Heterochromia in eyes and legs of birds From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 12:03:58 -0800 I have nearly completed a technical manuscript describing heterochromia in birds and am seeking additional case records from birders. Heterochromia iridis refers to different colored irides (eyes) in an individual and heterochromia pedalis refers to different colored legs in an individual. Thus far I have found published reports of heterochromia iridis in four species of birds (domesticated Rock Pigeon, Herring Gull, Thayer's Gull and Brewer's Blackbird) and published reports of heterochromia pedalis in only one bird (domestic chicken). I have scrounged up additional unpublished reports of heterochromia iridis in Herring Gull, Ring-billed Gull and Iceland Gull, and unpublished reports of heterochromia pedalis in Herring Gull, Lesser Black-backed Gull, Ring-billed Gull and Chipping Sparrow. If you have observed or photographed heterochromia in a bird and have not previously contacted me, I would like to include your observation in the manuscript with your permission. I would need to know the species, date, locality and relevant details (colour of irides or legs on each side of the body). Thanks for considering this request. Floyd Hayes Hidden Valley Lake, California, USA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Hawk ID problem From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:46:53 +0100 My friend Mrs.Sandberg photographed a hawk/buzzard a week ago here in The Netherlands. We feel this bird may have New World roots. The pictures were taken at quite a distance so the quality is not so good. Please let us know your opinion. Have a look here: http://members.casema.nl/ellen.sandberg/id_problems.htm Cheers, Norman Deans van Swelm Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Possible hybrid nighthawk From: Nathan Pieplow <npieplow AT INDRA.COM> Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 12:52:58 -0700 Hi all, I discovered an interesting nighthawk recording from the Florida Keys in the archives of the Macaulay Library. It may just be an odd-sounding Common, but I think there's a possibility that it could be a hybrid Common x Antillean Nighthawk. I'd appreciate any comments, especially from people familiar with Antillean. Have these forms been reported to hybridize before? Discussion, with links to the files in question, at http://earbirding.com/blog/archives/982. Nathan Pieplow Boulder, Colorado Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL From: Steven Mlodinow <sgmlod AT AOL.COM> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:35:11 -0400 Greetings All One thing to remember is that molt is plastic, like many things in biology, and birds that are ill will suspend molt, trying to conserve energy. So, if this bird is ill, its late molt is not necessarily a sign that it is of a western race. Steve Mlodinow -----Original Message----- From: Greg Neise To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:06 am Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL Many thanks to Tony, and everyone who sent such detailed and thoughtful esponses. The details of how BRSP would differ from CHSP in this plumage is not omething that is readily available from the field guides. Both Sibley (The ibley Guide to the Birds, page 484) and Beadle (The Sparrows of the United tates and Canada, Plate 8) show juvenile BRSP with darkish lores and yeline approaching CHSP. Sibley points out that BRSP is "less contrasting verall, patterned weakly in grayish brown". Which, compared to the CHSP it as with, was a fairly accurate description of the bird I photographed. Another thing that made this bird stand out was it's behavior. When the lock flushed or moved, it was always the last to do so. When I had it erched in a tree, it went to sleep. It seemed exhausted or sick. In the thread on this bird, Bob Hughes suggests, "The retained juvenile reast streaking strongly suggests that this Chipping Sparrow belongs to the estern subspecies, Spizella passerina arizonae. The first prebasic molt of his subspecies is usually suspended until after migration, hence the etained breast streaking. In the nominate subspecies of Chipping Sparrow, s well as Brewer's and Clay-colored Sparrows, the first prebasic molt ccurs on or near the breeding grounds, so we probably wouldn't see the treaky juvenile plumage of these birds this late in the season." Also interesting is that we've had more Harris' Sparrows in the Chicago area his fall than I can ever remember. There have been at least 10 different irds in the last 10 days. So perhaps this bird did come from parts west. Thanks again for the help. I always come away from asking a question of this roup learning more than I anticipated...which is awesome. -greg neise erwyn, IL On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:37:20 -0400, greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM wrote: > Greg et al.: The bird depicted is a juvenile Chipping Sparrow (CHSP), as supported by a umber of features, not the least of which is that it's still holding so uch juvenal plumage at this late date. This is typical of western CHSPs, ut not eastern ones (see Pyle (1997)) and is atypical of both Clay-colored CCSP) and Brewer's (BRSP). Additionally, as can be seen in the second hoto from the top, the bird shows a distinct and blackish eyeline that xtends well in front of the eye, a feature not present on BRSP or CCSP. his feature is not at all apparent in the other pix, possibly due to the ngle and, in some, because of the posture of the face. Additionally, rewer's doesn't show the darkening of the forward part of the lower edge of he crown that is typical of both CHSP and CCSP and this feature is shown ell (though it's a fairly subtle mark) in the pix provided, even showing in he pix in which the eyeline is less to much less evident. In fact, the rovided pix of juvenile BRSPs show very typical individuals, lacking the arkening on the forecrown and also showing the very plain, fairly unmarked ace of the species -- not the pale superciliary, dark eyeline, bright eye rcs, and contrasting auriculars typical of Chipping; all of these haracters are present, to greater or lesser extent, on the subject bird. Finally, I also have qualms with using the term "juvenile" in regards to irds that have completed (or, at least, nearly so) a post-juvenal molt, uch as the immature (Eastern?) Chipping Sparrow depicted on the same page. Thanks, Greg, for bringing up this subject on this venue. Spizella ID (at east, that of the tricky trio of CHSP, CCSP, BRSP) is nowhere near as easy r cut-and-dried as some seem to think it. There is a fairly substantial umber of individuals that can easily cause problems and/or isidentification among unwary birders and I've seen some Spizellas that I'm ore than happy to leave as identity uncertain, particularly of photographed irds. Sincerely, Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Greg Neise To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Thu, Oct 29, 2009 9:13 pm Subject: [BIRDWG01] A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL Hi all, Yesterday, I saw a sparrow that was noticeably gray/monotone compared to the hipping Sparrows it was with. As I tried to get in position to get a photo f this bird, cemetery workers in a tractor came along and flushed the 100+ irds that were feeding in the grass. I spent nearly 2 hours trying to elocate this bird without success. I was able to find this relocate this bird today, and managed to get a few hotos. Overall, it stood out because of how dull gray-brown and rather inely streaked (compared to the Chippies) it was. This bird has a rather lain face, crisp streaking on the breast, with the streaks made up of ndividual, triangular-shaped markings. From back to crown the color was ore or less constant, with the nape appearing grayer, and also finely treaked. The supercilium was the same base color as the rest of the face making the bird stand out among the juvenile Chipping Sparrows with omparatively bright buffy supercilium). At all times the bird appeared to ave a whitish eye-ring, but this was more apparent when the bird closed its yes. The secondaries appeared to be browner than the rest of the ack/wings, but none of the markings on this bird had the rufous tones that hipping Sparrows tend to show. I did not get a good look at the rump. The overall tone of the bird, and face pattern suggest juvenile Brewer's parrow, but the amount of solid information on the juvenile plumage of this pecies, especially the northern race, taverneri, is maddeningly sparse. Here are the photos: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=28347.0 ...any guidance, comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Cheers, -greg neise erwyn, IL PS: thanks to all who sent a note concerning the Glaucous-winged Gull a week r so ago. I've submitted documentation to the IORC, and I can't see any eason why the record won't be accepted (#7 for IL). oin or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html oin or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL From: Steven Mlodinow <sgmlod AT AOL.COM> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:35:10 -0400 Greetings All One thing to remember is that molt is plastic, like many things in biology, and birds that are ill will suspend molt, trying to conserve energy. So, if this bird is ill, its late molt is not necessarily a sign that it is of a western race. Steve Mlodinow -----Original Message----- From: Greg Neise To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:06 am Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL Many thanks to Tony, and everyone who sent such detailed and thoughtful esponses. The details of how BRSP would differ from CHSP in this plumage is not omething that is readily available from the field guides. Both Sibley (The ibley Guide to the Birds, page 484) and Beadle (The Sparrows of the United tates and Canada, Plate 8) show juvenile BRSP with darkish lores and yeline approaching CHSP. Sibley points out that BRSP is "less contrasting verall, patterned weakly in grayish brown". Which, compared to the CHSP it as with, was a fairly accurate description of the bird I photographed. Another thing that made this bird stand out was it's behavior. When the lock flushed or moved, it was always the last to do so. When I had it erched in a tree, it went to sleep. It seemed exhausted or sick. In the thread on this bird, Bob Hughes suggests, "The retained juvenile reast streaking strongly suggests that this Chipping Sparrow belongs to the estern subspecies, Spizella passerina arizonae. The first prebasic molt of his subspecies is usually suspended until after migration, hence the etained breast streaking. In the nominate subspecies of Chipping Sparrow, s well as Brewer's and Clay-colored Sparrows, the first prebasic molt ccurs on or near the breeding grounds, so we probably wouldn't see the treaky juvenile plumage of these birds this late in the season." Also interesting is that we've had more Harris' Sparrows in the Chicago area his fall than I can ever remember. There have been at least 10 different irds in the last 10 days. So perhaps this bird did come from parts west. Thanks again for the help. I always come away from asking a question of this roup learning more than I anticipated...which is awesome. -greg neise erwyn, IL On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:37:20 -0400, greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM wrote: > Greg et al.: The bird depicted is a juvenile Chipping Sparrow (CHSP), as supported by a umber of features, not the least of which is that it's still holding so uch juvenal plumage at this late date. This is typical of western CHSPs, ut not eastern ones (see Pyle (1997)) and is atypical of both Clay-colored CCSP) and Brewer's (BRSP). Additionally, as can be seen in the second hoto from the top, the bird shows a distinct and blackish eyeline that xtends well in front of the eye, a feature not present on BRSP or CCSP. his feature is not at all apparent in the other pix, possibly due to the ngle and, in some, because of the posture of the face. Additionally, rewer's doesn't show the darkening of the forward part of the lower edge of he crown that is typical of both CHSP and CCSP and this feature is shown ell (though it's a fairly subtle mark) in the pix provided, even showing in he pix in which the eyeline is less to much less evident. In fact, the rovided pix of juvenile BRSPs show very typical individuals, lacking the arkening on the forecrown and also showing the very plain, fairly unmarked ace of the species -- not the pale superciliary, dark eyeline, bright eye rcs, and contrasting auriculars typical of Chipping; all of these haracters are present, to greater or lesser extent, on the subject bird. Finally, I also have qualms with using the term "juvenile" in regards to irds that have completed (or, at least, nearly so) a post-juvenal molt, uch as the immature (Eastern?) Chipping Sparrow depicted on the same page. Thanks, Greg, for bringing up this subject on this venue. Spizella ID (at east, that of the tricky trio of CHSP, CCSP, BRSP) is nowhere near as easy r cut-and-dried as some seem to think it. There is a fairly substantial umber of individuals that can easily cause problems and/or isidentification among unwary birders and I've seen some Spizellas that I'm ore than happy to leave as identity uncertain, particularly of photographed irds. Sincerely, Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Greg Neise To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Thu, Oct 29, 2009 9:13 pm Subject: [BIRDWG01] A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL Hi all, Yesterday, I saw a sparrow that was noticeably gray/monotone compared to the hipping Sparrows it was with. As I tried to get in position to get a photo f this bird, cemetery workers in a tractor came along and flushed the 100+ irds that were feeding in the grass. I spent nearly 2 hours trying to elocate this bird without success. I was able to find this relocate this bird today, and managed to get a few hotos. Overall, it stood out because of how dull gray-brown and rather inely streaked (compared to the Chippies) it was. This bird has a rather lain face, crisp streaking on the breast, with the streaks made up of ndividual, triangular-shaped markings. From back to crown the color was ore or less constant, with the nape appearing grayer, and also finely treaked. The supercilium was the same base color as the rest of the face making the bird stand out among the juvenile Chipping Sparrows with omparatively bright buffy supercilium). At all times the bird appeared to ave a whitish eye-ring, but this was more apparent when the bird closed its yes. The secondaries appeared to be browner than the rest of the ack/wings, but none of the markings on this bird had the rufous tones that hipping Sparrows tend to show. I did not get a good look at the rump. The overall tone of the bird, and face pattern suggest juvenile Brewer's parrow, but the amount of solid information on the juvenile plumage of this pecies, especially the northern race, taverneri, is maddeningly sparse. Here are the photos: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=28347.0 ...any guidance, comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Cheers, -greg neise erwyn, IL PS: thanks to all who sent a note concerning the Glaucous-winged Gull a week r so ago. I've submitted documentation to the IORC, and I can't see any eason why the record won't be accepted (#7 for IL). oin or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html oin or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL From: Jim Pike <jpike44 AT EARTHLINK.NET> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:19:47 -0700 Hi, Is the molt-timing difference between 'western'(S.p.stridula/S.p.arizonae) and 'eastern' (S.p.passerina) really as well-differentiated as stated? Pyle (1997) gives a more restrained impression, only stating that a "higher percentage" of western birds than eastern birds retain juvenile plumage during migration. Comparing western birds with Brewer's Sparrows, I see ample numbers of well-streaked juvenile Chippies moving through the Mojave desert throughout the month of October every year (especially this one), but the last obvious juvenile Brewer's I saw in 2009 was in late September, and the ventral markings at that time were limited to a couple streaks at the sides of the breast (which is as boldly-marked as I ever see them in migration). And, expanding upon Tony's earlier comments, while I think the vast majority of Spizella's are a routine identification challenge, encountering a large mixed-species flock of Brewer's and Clay- coloreds (as in central Baja) can be a dizzying experience that may renew your respect for the often subtle distinctions between these two species. Jim Pike Huntington Beach On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:06:25 -0700, Greg Neise wrote: "The retained juvenile >breast streaking strongly suggests that this Chipping Sparrow belongs to the >western subspecies, Spizella passerina arizonae. The first prebasic molt of >this subspecies is usually suspended until after migration, hence the >retained breast streaking. In the nominate subspecies of Chipping Sparrow, >as well as Brewer's and Clay-colored Sparrows, the first prebasic molt >occurs on or near the breeding grounds, so we probably wouldn't see the >streaky juvenile plumage of these birds this late in the season." > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora? From: Brian Sullivan <heraldpetrel AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:42:06 -0700 Hello All This is a really interesting discussion. I'm not sure we'll ever know for sure what these birds are based on the photos, as there just isn't quite enough detail there. Kimball is right that the bird on the lower left is suggestive of Cook's based on shape, but others in the photo look wrong to me. The wing shape of these birds looks a bit too triangular and short when compared with the body. On the birds that are banking, especially the middle bird about fifth from left, the tail shape looks wrong for Pterodroma, being fanned and square-tipped, more like a Black Tern. I couldn't find a Cook's in my photos that shows a similar shaped tail in any pose. I'm not sure it helps, but I've posted a gallery of Cook's Petrels taken off California this summer here: http://briansullivanphotography.com/Galleries/COPE/index.html Granted these birds are closer, but there are a variety of shape shots here that might help. Most of these summer birds are finishing primary molt and their tails are in heavy molt. I would expect by late September that most have finished molting--not that we can see that on the MX birds, but I would expect them to look cleaner overall by late Sep. In any case, for what it's worth.... RE feeding Pterodromas, I've only seen Black-cappeds actively feeding on chum, and as Chris said, they seem to be able to do a lot more than simply shoot around in steep arcs. The birds I saw were hovering and dip-feeding in strong 30 knot winds, looking more like giant Wilson's Storm-Petrels than the sleek fliers we typically think of for Pterodromas. Even with bouts of hovering and dipping, they interspersed steep arcs on crooked wings. It was an interesting sight. I have photos of these birds feeding with Wilson's Storm-Petrels if anyone is interested. Brian On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 5:59 AM, Michael Force wrote: > Hi Birders, > > To me, the photo reveals what appears to be a feeding flock of Black Terns, > which can be incredibly abundant in the Gulf of California in the fall; I've > seen flocks of 12,000-80,000 in early September as they migrate down the > Mexican coast to wintering areas in the Panama bight. The dorsal surface of > several birds in the photo is grey, and of the wrong colour for Cook's. The > overall shape also points to Black Tern and not Cook's Petrel. When in a > mixed seabird feeding flock, Cook's alight on the surface to feed, and do > not pick from the surface as do Black Terns. The storm-driven provenance > theory has some merit. After a hurricane one fall, I saw a Kermadec Petrel > in the Gulf of California. Furthermore, a couple of Cook's Petrels I saw off > Isla Santa Margarita (west side of Baja California Sur) earlier this week > may have been a result of Hurricane Rick that had passed to the south of > Cabo Falso a few days earlier. Until then we hadn't seen any Cook's on this > leg of the cruise. > > happy birding, > > Michael Force > > currently aboard NOAA ship McArthur II > > 30 nmi southwest of Punta Abreojos, BCS > > pagodroma AT yahoo.com > > ------------------------------ > Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet > Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! *Get it Now for Free! * > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > -- =========== Brian L. Sullivan Pacific Grove, CA eBird/AKN Project Leader www.ebird.org www.avianknowledge.net Photographic Editor, Birds of North America Online http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Rd. Ithaca, NY 14850 Photographic Editor, North American Birds American Birding Association www.americanbirding.org bls42 AT cornell.edu 609-694-3280 ------------------------------- Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: General ID discussion question From: Pastor Al Schirmacher <pastoral AT PRINCETONFREECHURCH.NET> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:07:01 -0500 This a general ID discussion question, not related to the current Spizellla sparrow discussion: When we are discussing (or reading about) a particular bird, does it help or hinder the case when someone makes a pronouncement - "this is definitively an XYZ" - rather than a more flexible argument? One of the greatest truths I've learned from this group over the years (about the only one I lurk on, most others I'm an active contributor), is the subjectivity of some identifications. Thanks! Al Schirmacher Princeton, MN Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL From: Greg Neise <gregneise AT ILBIRDS.COM> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:06:25 -0700 Many thanks to Tony, and everyone who sent such detailed and thoughtful responses. The details of how BRSP would differ from CHSP in this plumage is not something that is readily available from the field guides. Both Sibley (The Sibley Guide to the Birds, page 484) and Beadle (The Sparrows of the United States and Canada, Plate 8) show juvenile BRSP with darkish lores and eyeline approaching CHSP. Sibley points out that BRSP is "less contrasting overall, patterned weakly in grayish brown". Which, compared to the CHSP it was with, was a fairly accurate description of the bird I photographed. Another thing that made this bird stand out was it's behavior. When the flock flushed or moved, it was always the last to do so. When I had it perched in a tree, it went to sleep. It seemed exhausted or sick. In the thread on this bird, Bob Hughes suggests, "The retained juvenile breast streaking strongly suggests that this Chipping Sparrow belongs to the western subspecies, Spizella passerina arizonae. The first prebasic molt of this subspecies is usually suspended until after migration, hence the retained breast streaking. In the nominate subspecies of Chipping Sparrow, as well as Brewer's and Clay-colored Sparrows, the first prebasic molt occurs on or near the breeding grounds, so we probably wouldn't see the streaky juvenile plumage of these birds this late in the season." Also interesting is that we've had more Harris' Sparrows in the Chicago area this fall than I can ever remember. There have been at least 10 different birds in the last 10 days. So perhaps this bird did come from parts west. Thanks again for the help. I always come away from asking a question of this group learning more than I anticipated...which is awesome. -greg neise Berwyn, IL On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:37:20 -0400, greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM wrote: > >Greg et al.: > >The bird depicted is a juvenile Chipping Sparrow (CHSP), as supported by a number of features, not the least of which is that it's still holding so much juvenal plumage at this late date. This is typical of western CHSPs, but not eastern ones (see Pyle (1997)) and is atypical of both Clay-colored (CCSP) and Brewer's (BRSP). Additionally, as can be seen in the second photo from the top, the bird shows a distinct and blackish eyeline that extends well in front of the eye, a feature not present on BRSP or CCSP. This feature is not at all apparent in the other pix, possibly due to the angle and, in some, because of the posture of the face. Additionally, Brewer's doesn't show the darkening of the forward part of the lower edge of the crown that is typical of both CHSP and CCSP and this feature is shown well (though it's a fairly subtle mark) in the pix provided, even showing in the pix in which the eyeline is less to much less evident. In fact, the provided pix of juvenile BRSPs show very typical individuals, lacking the darkening on the forecrown and also showing the very plain, fairly unmarked face of the species -- not the pale superciliary, dark eyeline, bright eye arcs, and contrasting auriculars typical of Chipping; all of these characters are present, to greater or lesser extent, on the subject bird. > >Finally, I also have qualms with using the term "juvenile" in regards to birds that have completed (or, at least, nearly so) a post-juvenal molt, such as the immature (Eastern?) Chipping Sparrow depicted on the same page. > >Thanks, Greg, for bringing up this subject on this venue. Spizella ID (at least, that of the tricky trio of CHSP, CCSP, BRSP) is nowhere near as easy or cut-and-dried as some seem to think it. There is a fairly substantial number of individuals that can easily cause problems and/or misidentification among unwary birders and I've seen some Spizellas that I'm more than happy to leave as identity uncertain, particularly of photographed birds. > >Sincerely, > >Tony Leukering >Villas, NJ > >-----Original Message----- >From: Greg Neise >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Sent: Thu, Oct 29, 2009 9:13 pm >Subject: [BIRDWG01] A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL > > > >Hi all, >Yesterday, I saw a sparrow that was noticeably gray/monotone compared to the >hipping Sparrows it was with. As I tried to get in position to get a photo >f this bird, cemetery workers in a tractor came along and flushed the 100+ >irds that were feeding in the grass. I spent nearly 2 hours trying to >elocate this bird without success. >I was able to find this relocate this bird today, and managed to get a few >hotos. Overall, it stood out because of how dull gray-brown and rather >inely streaked (compared to the Chippies) it was. This bird has a rather >lain face, crisp streaking on the breast, with the streaks made up of >ndividual, triangular-shaped markings. From back to crown the color was >ore or less constant, with the nape appearing grayer, and also finely >treaked. The supercilium was the same base color as the rest of the face >making the bird stand out among the juvenile Chipping Sparrows with >omparatively bright buffy supercilium). At all times the bird appeared to >ave a whitish eye-ring, but this was more apparent when the bird closed its >yes. The secondaries appeared to be browner than the rest of the >ack/wings, but none of the markings on this bird had the rufous tones that >hipping Sparrows tend to show. I did not get a good look at the rump. >The overall tone of the bird, and face pattern suggest juvenile Brewer's >parrow, but the amount of solid information on the juvenile plumage of this >pecies, especially the northern race, taverneri, is maddeningly sparse. >Here are the photos: >http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=28347.0 >...any guidance, comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated. >Cheers, >-greg neise >erwyn, IL >PS: thanks to all who sent a note concerning the Glaucous-winged Gull a week >r so ago. I've submitted documentation to the IORC, and I can't see any >eason why the record won't be accepted (#7 for IL). > >oin or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparrow in New Jersey From: greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:40:56 -0400 Hey Bill: As you said, it's a Chippy. Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Bill Elrick To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:09 am Subject: [BIRDWG01] A Juvenile Spizella Sparrow in New Jersey Hi, I would like to ask about this bird pictured here >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mcbrian/2907922990/in/set-72157607703404842/ << When I was asked, I thought this bird was just a hy Chipping sparrow but several people have disagreed. The bird does have a very light colored bill. Thanks to all who make a comment. Bill Elrick NJ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora? From: Michael Force <pagodroma AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 05:59:35 -0700 Hi Birders, To me, the photo reveals what appears to be a feeding flock of Black Terns, which can be incredibly abundant in the Gulf of California in the fall; I've seen flocks of 12,000-80,000 in early September as they migrate down the Mexican coast to wintering areas in the Panama bight. The dorsal surface of several birds in the photo is grey, and of the wrong colour for Cook's. The overall shape also points to Black Tern and not Cook's Petrel. When in a mixed seabird feeding flock, Cook's alight on the surface to feed, and do not pick from the surface as do Black Terns. The storm-driven provenance theory has some merit. After a hurricane one fall, I saw a Kermadec Petrel in the Gulf of California. Furthermore, a couple of Cook's Petrels I saw off Isla Santa Margarita (west side of Baja California Sur) earlier this week may have been a result of Hurricane Rick that had passed to the south of Cabo Falso a few days earlier. Until then we hadn't seen any Cook's on this leg of the cruise. happy birding, Michael Force currently aboard NOAA ship McArthur II 30 nmi southwest of Punta Abreojos, BCS pagodroma AT yahoo.com __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: odd shorebird Brooklyn NY From: Bill Rudden <bilrudn AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 06:07:34 -0700 Hi Shane: Interesting pic.  IMO your pics cannot eliminate Least Sandpiper.- the strong/low sun angle might redden the legs- movement in profile pic: causing eye placement to be centered                                         and bill to appear shortRespectfully, br --- On Fri, 10/30/09, shane Blodgett wrote: From: shane Blodgett Subject: [BIRDWG01] odd shorebird Brooklyn NY To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 12:42 AM At a friend's suggestion, I am posting a link to a couple of poor digishots of an odd shorebird seen on Oct. 26 at Plumb Beach in Brooklyn NY. I know there have been threads before about the futility of trying to put a label on on a bird based on poor photos but I thought this bird was intriguing enough to warrant throwing it out there. The bird presented structurally like a long-winged but smallish Calidrid ( my initial thought was a longer-winged Least Sandpiper ), but had the orange-red legs of a Ruddy Turnstone. When it first landed it froze for about 2-3 seconds and then made a mad dash across the sand to the water's edge where it hesitated just long enough to get these 2 digishots (did I mention they were poor?): http://tinyurl.com/yzcjpbe It then took off and flew along the shore in front of me-with the sun at his back of course-and gave a call like a Least on steroids, more like a Pectoral. It landed very briefly and then took off again and disappeared over a sand bar well out into the channel. In flight I noted long wings, random patches of white in the wings and on the back and a white rump with a black tail band. Suggestion's of possible hybrid combinations have been Ruddy/Least or Ruddy/Pec. Any thoughts? Regards, Shane Blodgett Brooklyn NY Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: A Juvenile Spizella Sparrow in New Jersey From: Bill Elrick <belrick AT OPTONLINE.NET> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:09:34 -0400 Hi, I would like to ask about this bird pictured here >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mcbrian/2907922990/in/set-72157607703404842/ << When I was asked, I thought this bird was just a hy Chipping sparrow but several people have disagreed. The bird does have a very light colored bill. Thanks to all who make a comment. Bill Elrick NJ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL From: Zoe Rarestorm <rarestorm AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:28:12 -0700 The juvenile spizella is a Chipping Sparrow for various reasons already listed by Tony. I would like to point out that another sparrow on that page identified as a juvenile Brewer's Sparrow is a juvenile Chipping Sparrow. That would be the final photo on the page. It has a dark eyeline right past the eye to the bill; not the pale lore of a Brewer's Sparrow. Further, the photo shows that the eye-arcs are divided by black in the back and front. A Brewer's Sparrow shows an eye-ring that may be slightly nipped in the back, but is always complete in the front. It's also not evident where that photo came from; it seems like it was linked from some random web site. Sincerely, Zoe. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: odd shorebird Brooklyn NY From: shane Blodgett <shaneblodgett AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:42:07 -0700 At a friend's suggestion, I am posting a link to a couple of poor digishots of an odd shorebird seen on Oct. 26 at Plumb Beach in Brooklyn NY. I know there have been threads before about the futility of trying to put a label on on a bird based on poor photos but I thought this bird was intriguing enough to warrant throwing it out there. The bird presented structurally like a long-winged but smallish Calidrid ( my initial thought was a longer-winged Least Sandpiper ), but had the orange-red legs of a Ruddy Turnstone. When it first landed it froze for about 2-3 seconds and then made a mad dash across the sand to the water's edge where it hesitated just long enough to get these 2 digishots (did I mention they were poor?): http://tinyurl.com/yzcjpbe It then took off and flew along the shore in front of me-with the sun at his back of course-and gave a call like a Least on steroids, more like a Pectoral. It landed very briefly and then took off again and disappeared over a sand bar well out into the channel. In flight I noted long wings, random patches of white in the wings and on the back and a white rump with a black tail band. Suggestion's of possible hybrid combinations have been Ruddy/Least or Ruddy/Pec. Any thoughts? Regards, Shane Blodgett Brooklyn NY Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL From: greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:37:20 -0400 Greg et al.: The bird depicted is a juvenile Chipping Sparrow (CHSP), as supported by a number of features, not the least of which is that it's still holding so much juvenal plumage at this late date. This is typical of western CHSPs, but not eastern ones (see Pyle (1997)) and is atypical of both Clay-colored (CCSP) and Brewer's (BRSP). Additionally, as can be seen in the second photo from the top, the bird shows a distinct and blackish eyeline that extends well in front of the eye, a feature not present on BRSP or CCSP. This feature is not at all apparent in the other pix, possibly due to the angle and, in some, because of the posture of the face. Additionally, Brewer's doesn't show the darkening of the forward part of the lower edge of the crown that is typical of both CHSP and CCSP and this feature is shown well (though it's a fairly subtle mark) in the pix provided, even showing in the pix in which the eyeline is less to much less evident. In fact, the provided pix of juvenile BRSPs show very typical individuals, lacking the darkening on the forecrown and also showing the very plain, fairly unmarked face of the species -- not the pale superciliary, dark eyeline, bright eye arcs, and contrasting auriculars typical of Chipping; all of these characters are present, to greater or lesser extent, on the subject bird. Finally, I also have qualms with using the term "juvenile" in regards to birds that have completed (or, at least, nearly so) a post-juvenal molt, such as the immature (Eastern?) Chipping Sparrow depicted on the same page. Thanks, Greg, for bringing up this subject on this venue. Spizella ID (at least, that of the tricky trio of CHSP, CCSP, BRSP) is nowhere near as easy or cut-and-dried as some seem to think it. There is a fairly substantial number of individuals that can easily cause problems and/or misidentification among unwary birders and I've seen some Spizellas that I'm more than happy to leave as identity uncertain, particularly of photographed birds. Sincerely, Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Greg Neise To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Thu, Oct 29, 2009 9:13 pm Subject: [BIRDWG01] A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL Hi all, Yesterday, I saw a sparrow that was noticeably gray/monotone compared to the hipping Sparrows it was with. As I tried to get in position to get a photo f this bird, cemetery workers in a tractor came along and flushed the 100+ irds that were feeding in the grass. I spent nearly 2 hours trying to elocate this bird without success. I was able to find this relocate this bird today, and managed to get a few hotos. Overall, it stood out because of how dull gray-brown and rather inely streaked (compared to the Chippies) it was. This bird has a rather lain face, crisp streaking on the breast, with the streaks made up of ndividual, triangular-shaped markings. From back to crown the color was ore or less constant, with the nape appearing grayer, and also finely treaked. The supercilium was the same base color as the rest of the face making the bird stand out among the juvenile Chipping Sparrows with omparatively bright buffy supercilium). At all times the bird appeared to ave a whitish eye-ring, but this was more apparent when the bird closed its yes. The secondaries appeared to be browner than the rest of the ack/wings, but none of the markings on this bird had the rufous tones that hipping Sparrows tend to show. I did not get a good look at the rump. The overall tone of the bird, and face pattern suggest juvenile Brewer's parrow, but the amount of solid information on the juvenile plumage of this pecies, especially the northern race, taverneri, is maddeningly sparse. Here are the photos: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=28347.0 ...any guidance, comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Cheers, -greg neise erwyn, IL PS: thanks to all who sent a note concerning the Glaucous-winged Gull a week r so ago. I've submitted documentation to the IORC, and I can't see any eason why the record won't be accepted (#7 for IL). oin or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: A Juvenile Spizella Sparow in IL From: Greg Neise <gregneise AT ILBIRDS.COM> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:13:47 -0700 Hi all, Yesterday, I saw a sparrow that was noticeably gray/monotone compared to the Chipping Sparrows it was with. As I tried to get in position to get a photo of this bird, cemetery workers in a tractor came along and flushed the 100+ birds that were feeding in the grass. I spent nearly 2 hours trying to relocate this bird without success. I was able to find this relocate this bird today, and managed to get a few photos. Overall, it stood out because of how dull gray-brown and rather finely streaked (compared to the Chippies) it was. This bird has a rather plain face, crisp streaking on the breast, with the streaks made up of individual, triangular-shaped markings. From back to crown the color was more or less constant, with the nape appearing grayer, and also finely streaked. The supercilium was the same base color as the rest of the face (making the bird stand out among the juvenile Chipping Sparrows with comparatively bright buffy supercilium). At all times the bird appeared to have a whitish eye-ring, but this was more apparent when the bird closed its eyes. The secondaries appeared to be browner than the rest of the back/wings, but none of the markings on this bird had the rufous tones that Chipping Sparrows tend to show. I did not get a good look at the rump. The overall tone of the bird, and face pattern suggest juvenile Brewer's Sparrow, but the amount of solid information on the juvenile plumage of this species, especially the northern race, taverneri, is maddeningly sparse. Here are the photos: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=28347.0 ...any guidance, comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Cheers, -greg neise Berwyn, IL PS: thanks to all who sent a note concerning the Glaucous-winged Gull a week or so ago. I've submitted documentation to the IORC, and I can't see any reason why the record won't be accepted (#7 for IL). Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? From: Chris Corben <corben AT HOARYBAT.COM> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:03:54 -0500 Hi all > This is intriguing. Matt's description of the birds' behavior (hovering, > fluttering down to the surface of the water) sounds utterly different from > the flight style of Cook's and other Pterodroma petrels -- more like the Actually, I think it's quite in character, at least for Cook's Petrel. Although I've watched countless Pterodromas flying, and maybe quite a lot of them feeding, my observations of Cook's Petrels feeding in the ocean off New Zealand stands right out. They almost looked like a flock of terns, often hovering over the water and dipping down into it. Matt's observations (and what you can see from his photos) seems perfectly consistent with Cook's Petrels, to me. Perhaps more than any other birds, Pterodromas show a staggering flexibility in the way they fly. The same bird can half fold its wings and fly like a rocket, or it can spread them wide and hover or flap along like a gull. I have watched a White-necked Petrel lazily flying over land during a storm in Queensland, looking more like a gull then a bird I usually think of as more like an albatross. I once saw a Herald Petrel flying over an island with a flock of Sooty Terns, and at first thought it was just one of the terns. I would not be at all surprised to find this feeding behaviour of Cook's Petrels is also found in other species, even if it isn't seen very often. My guess is it's mainly a result of their current food source. Sometimes you encounter petrels exploiting a prodigious, if maybe short-term food resource, and when they do so, they can employ tactics you don't usually associate with them. Cheers, Chris Corben Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? From: Steven Mlodinow <sgmlod AT AOL.COM> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:52:22 -0400 Greetings All So, having never seen a Pterodroma actually feed (just zip around), how do they fly when they feed? Surely not in big, sweeping arcs? This may well vary from species to species, so is there anyone out there who can comment on the flight style of Cook's Petrels when in a feeding flock? Best Wishes Steve Mlodinow -----Original Message----- From: Kenn Kaufman To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Thu, Oct 29, 2009 9:41 am Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? This is intriguing. Matt's description of the birds' behavior (hovering, fluttering down to the surface of the water) sounds utterly different from the flight style of Cook's and other Pterodroma petrels -- more like the flight of a storm-petrel (and of course these birds are obviously not storm-petrels). I can't imagine a Pterodroma flying that way, even in calm winds close to shore. The description of behavior, coupled with the photograph, suggests the possibility of Bridled Tern. Bridled in my experience can look somewhat "unternlike" at sea; it flutters and dips to the surface more than it plunge-dives; and birds in the first cycle can be very pale gray above and white below and can have a head pattern suggesting that of Cook's Petrel. Bridled Tern isn't known to be regular along the coast of Sonora but it can be common a little farther south in western Mexico -- for example, I've seen surprising numbers off the coast of Nayarit. At any rate, this is a possibility to consider. By the way, kudos to Matt O'Brien for pursuing this instead of just leaving the birds as mysteries. Kenn Kaufman Oak Harbor, Ohio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew O'Brien" To: Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:25 AM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? - further post Thanks to those who have replied regarding my sightings of what I believe to be Cook's Petrels in the Gulf of California off the Sonora coast. In addition to the one distant photo I posted of a flock, I did observe on different occasions perhaps 15 flocks of the petrels flying by or feeding in relatively close proximity to the boat. Some of these flocks were within 150 ft. My lack of photos at these times gives me great distress. (I was sailing the boat, with my camera below deck generally.) I did not state the behavior of the petrels well in my first posting. When feeding, the birds hovered close to the surface of the water, fluttering down onto it to snatch some unseen (to me) food. Sometimes they would alight briefly, other times they kept airborne while dipping into the surface with their beak. In flight, the birds veered rather substantially in the breeze, and flew within 2-8 ft. of the surface while searching for food. All of this feeding and flight behavior, even when first seen at a distance, convinced me that the birds were some species of petrel. Seeing them closely confirmed this, primarily to me by the shape and size of the beak and head of the birds, in addition to their continued behavior. I believe I can rule out any species of tern due to a very markedly different feeding behavior. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? From: Kenn Kaufman <kenn.kaufman AT WORLDNET.ATT.NET> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:41:29 -0400 This is intriguing. Matt's description of the birds' behavior (hovering, fluttering down to the surface of the water) sounds utterly different from the flight style of Cook's and other Pterodroma petrels -- more like the flight of a storm-petrel (and of course these birds are obviously not storm-petrels). I can't imagine a Pterodroma flying that way, even in calm winds close to shore. The description of behavior, coupled with the photograph, suggests the possibility of Bridled Tern. Bridled in my experience can look somewhat "unternlike" at sea; it flutters and dips to the surface more than it plunge-dives; and birds in the first cycle can be very pale gray above and white below and can have a head pattern suggesting that of Cook's Petrel. Bridled Tern isn't known to be regular along the coast of Sonora but it can be common a little farther south in western Mexico -- for example, I've seen surprising numbers off the coast of Nayarit. At any rate, this is a possibility to consider. By the way, kudos to Matt O'Brien for pursuing this instead of just leaving the birds as mysteries. Kenn Kaufman Oak Harbor, Ohio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew O'Brien" To: Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:25 AM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? - further post Thanks to those who have replied regarding my sightings of what I believe to be Cook's Petrels in the Gulf of California off the Sonora coast. In addition to the one distant photo I posted of a flock, I did observe on different occasions perhaps 15 flocks of the petrels flying by or feeding in relatively close proximity to the boat. Some of these flocks were within 150 ft. My lack of photos at these times gives me great distress. (I was sailing the boat, with my camera below deck generally.) I did not state the behavior of the petrels well in my first posting. When feeding, the birds hovered close to the surface of the water, fluttering down onto it to snatch some unseen (to me) food. Sometimes they would alight briefly, other times they kept airborne while dipping into the surface with their beak. In flight, the birds veered rather substantially in the breeze, and flew within 2-8 ft. of the surface while searching for food. All of this feeding and flight behavior, even when first seen at a distance, convinced me that the birds were some species of petrel. Seeing them closely confirmed this, primarily to me by the shape and size of the beak and head of the birds, in addition to their continued behavior. I believe I can rule out any species of tern due to a very markedly different feeding behavior. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Sonora Petrel Photo size From: Robert O'Brien <baro AT PDX.EDU> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:43:23 -0700 My brother Matt doesn't have much experience with pelagic birding so I've been helping him with these remarkable photos and did the tentative id as Cook's. I didn't know anythng about the Vent report until later. One important point with the photo. In the lower right there should be a clickable enlarger button, but it won't appear until you put the mouse in that area. Once enlarged to full, original-pixel size, you can scroll left and right with the scroll arrows. You can't tell much in the reduced photo. Bob OBrien Carver OR On Thu, 29 Oct 2009, Matthew O'Brien wrote: > Thanks to those who have replied regarding my sightings of what I believe > to be Cook's Petrels in the Gulf of California off the Sonora coast. > > In addition to the one distant photo I posted of a flock, I did observe on > different occasions perhaps 15 flocks of the petrels flying by or feeding > in relatively close proximity to the boat. Some of these flocks were > within 150 ft. My lack of photos at these times gives me great distress. > (I was sailing the boat, with my camera below deck generally.) > > I did not state the behavior of the petrels well in my first posting. > When feeding, the birds hovered close to the surface of the water, > fluttering down onto it to snatch some unseen (to me) food. Sometimes > they would alight briefly, other times they kept airborne while dipping > into the surface with their beak. > > In flight, the birds veered rather substantially in the breeze, and flew > within 2-8 ft. of the surface while searching for food. > > All of this feeding and flight behavior, even when first seen at a > distance, convinced me that the birds were some species of petrel. Seeing > them closely confirmed this, primarily to me by the shape and size of the > beak and head of the birds, in addition to their continued behavior. > > I believe I can rule out any species of tern due to a very markedly > different feeding behavior. > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? - further post From: Matthew O'Brien <matthewobrien AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:25:07 -0700 Thanks to those who have replied regarding my sightings of what I believe to be Cook's Petrels in the Gulf of California off the Sonora coast. In addition to the one distant photo I posted of a flock, I did observe on different occasions perhaps 15 flocks of the petrels flying by or feeding in relatively close proximity to the boat. Some of these flocks were within 150 ft. My lack of photos at these times gives me great distress. (I was sailing the boat, with my camera below deck generally.) I did not state the behavior of the petrels well in my first posting. When feeding, the birds hovered close to the surface of the water, fluttering down onto it to snatch some unseen (to me) food. Sometimes they would alight briefly, other times they kept airborne while dipping into the surface with their beak. In flight, the birds veered rather substantially in the breeze, and flew within 2-8 ft. of the surface while searching for food. All of this feeding and flight behavior, even when first seen at a distance, convinced me that the birds were some species of petrel. Seeing them closely confirmed this, primarily to me by the shape and size of the beak and head of the birds, in addition to their continued behavior. I believe I can rule out any species of tern due to a very markedly different feeding behavior. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? From: Kimball Garrett <kgarrett AT NHM.ORG> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:03:01 -0700 I can't disagree with those who long for a better photo, but I think the photo does show small, pale Pterodroma (almost certainly Cook's by locality and circumstance). A few of the individuals show wings distinctly angled at the wrist joint, and at least one on the left shows a grayish hood that matches Cook's. The birds look pretty gleaming white on the underwings for Black Terns. As for timing, the peak movement of Black Terns in the upper Gulf seems to be from early August to mid-September (based on sixteen August to October visits to El Golfo de Santa Clara at the head of the Gulf); peak fall movement just to the north at the Salton Sea is in the first half of August (Patten et al., Birds of the Salton Sea). Certainly Black Terns can be moving past Guaymas at the end of September (and Russell and Monson cite Sonora records to the end of October), but it's late for good numbers. Having said that, I certainly can't rule out some of the darker-appearing birds in the photos as Black Terns. The timing for Cook's Petrels matches the general phenomenon of warm-water seabird movement into the Gulf during monsoon conditions from May to October. I have seen a small Pterodroma, almost certainly Cook's, once at El Golfo (22 May 2006, following a period of strong southerly winds). Jimena is certainly a reasonable culprit for pushing petrels into the Gulf, and in general this has been a better than average year for some warm-water birds (notably Blue-footed Booby) at the Salton Sea and elsewhere in the southwest (though booby occurrence is not likely to be directly storm-related). If there is a storm-petrel in the photo, it is hiding behind a swell on my monitor. Kimball Kimball L. Garrett Ornithology Collections Manager Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County 900 Exposition Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90007 USA 213-763-3368 kgarrett AT nhm.org -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Matthew O'Brien Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:50 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? This photo shows a mixed flock of petrels and storm-petrels taken very close to shore along the coast of the Gulf of California just north of Guaymas, Sonora, Mexico. (http://rdrop.com/users/green/petrel/petrels.jpg) Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? From: Brian Sullivan <heraldpetrel AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:33:04 -0700 Matt I agree with Nick that these possibly look like terns. The dark backs and white underparts suggest Black Terns, which would be expected at this time of year in that location. I've recently seen photos of large flocks of these in the inshore waters off west Mexico. Thanks Brian On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Matthew O'Brien wrote: > This photo shows a mixed flock of petrels and storm-petrels taken very > close to shore along the coast of the Gulf of California just north of > Guaymas, Sonora, Mexico. (http://rdrop.com/users/green/petrel/petrels.jpg > ) > > This photo was taken on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 around 4 PM. The > photo is a relatively narrow horizontal slice cut from the original to > preserve the photo quality, but not create too large a file size. I > apologized for the distance to the birds - and their size. > > Within this flock - and many others that I saw from 9/25 to 9/29 - are > petrels whose identity I believe to be COOK's PETRELS, or much less > likely, Stejneger's Petrels. > > The best example, I believe, is the bird that is fifth from the right, > wheeling away and showing its underparts. Compare its size to the fourth > bird from the right, a much smaller Storm-petrel which I believe to be a > Wedge-rumped. Others can be picked out across the photo. > > During our five days at sea, I encountered mixed flocks of petrels perhaps > 15 times. Flocks were typically composed of 15-35 birds. Some smaller > groups would be seen flying by, but all feeding flocks had a larger number > of birds. These birds began occurring about two miles north of Bahia San > Carlos, and extended up into the channel between Isla San Pedro Nolasco > and the shore to its east. We were never more than three miles from shore. > > My primary conundrum with these sightings are that all sources say that > Cook's Petrel is a bird of the open ocean, deep seas. These flocks of > petrels ranged out to our maximum distance from shore of three miles, but > also came into the mouth of coves in which we anchored. The distances to > adjoining vertical cliffs was several hundred feet, and in some cases a > few birds came briefly into the coves to within several hundred yards of > the beach. Water depth was about 10-15 fathoms maximum at these cove > entrances. > > Not withstanding the reports this year of unusually high amounts of Cook's > Petrels in the Pacific as far north as Monterey - it seems an > extraordinary location: along the Sonora coast of the Gulf of California > in shallow water near shore? > > There are two mitigating facts which I've considered: > > Hurricane Jimena, a very large and powerful hurricane, sliced up the > Pacific side of Baja California and hooked onto the peninsula near Cabo > San Lazaro and entered the Gulf between Santa Rosalia and Mulege - > southwest of Guaymas. Jimena then stalled just off Guaymas on September 3 > & 4, and rainfall totals for 36 hours were around 40 inches of rain. > Heavy flooding occurred. Could this storm have blown in these large amount > of petrels? > > Second, the flooding on land created large amounts of nutrients in the run- > off. We were able to observe massive amounts of fry, small minnows, > shrimp and other small food sources in schools all along shore. This > sudden bonanza of available food attracted large mixed flocks of pelicans, > frigatebirds, cormorants, seagulls, terns, Brown Boobies, etc. to feed in > flocks in the light surf right along the beach. The petrels didn't > venture this far, however. > > I would appreciate the comments and advice of anyone familiar with west- > coast pelagic birds - a skill I've not developed that well. Thanks. > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > -- =========== Brian L. Sullivan Pacific Grove, CA eBird/AKN Project Leader www.ebird.org www.avianknowledge.net Photographic Editor, Birds of North America Online http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA Cornell Lab of Ornithology 159 Sapsucker Woods Rd. Ithaca, NY 14850 Photographic Editor, North American Birds American Birding Association www.americanbirding.org bls42 AT cornell.edu 609-694-3280 ------------------------------- Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Snowy vs. Kentish Plovers From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker AT ZIPCON.NET> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:22:44 -0700 HI ALL: This was in the latest issue of The AUK (October 2009): Kentish Versus Snowy Plover: Phenotypic and Genetic Analyses of Charadrius alexandrinus Reveal Divergence of Eurasian and American Subspecies Clemens K�pper, Jakob Augustin, Andr s Kosztol nyi, Terry Burke, Jordi Flguerola, and Tam s Sz‚kely, K. T. Scribner Associate Editor pg(s) 839852 Abstract ABSTRACT. Many shorebird species have widespread geographic distributions comprising several continents. Because shorebirds are excellent flyers and can migrate large distances, it is often unclear whether reproductive barriers between subspecies and populations from different continents exist. Kentish-Snowy Plovers (Charadrius alexandrinus) are cosmopolitan shorebirds. Whether the American and Eurasian subspecies-Snowy Plover and Kentish Plover, respectivelyconstitute a single species is the subject of a longstanding debate. We examined the divergence between American and Eurasian populations to reassess the current taxonomy by comparing genetic and phenotypic characters of the American subspecies C. a. nivosus and the Eurasian subspecies C. a. alexandrinus from seven populations. Genetic analyses revealed that American and Eurasian populations have strongly diverged, the Kentish Plover being more closely related to the White-fronted Plover (C. marginatus) than to the Snowy Plover. These results were consistent across all assessed nuclear markers (26 microsatellites and a partial CHD sequence) and two mitochondrial markers (ND3 and ATPase 6/8). Within subspecies, populations sampled across large geographic distances were not genetically differentiated (all F st ó 0.01 and all èst ó 0.06), which suggests panmixia. Snowy Plovers differed morphologically from Kentish Plovers, having significantly shorter tarsi and wings. Chick plumage and calls also may serve as diagnostic characters to distinguish Snowy and Kentish plovers, although more data are needed to quantify these differences. Our combined results suggest that the taxonomic status of C. alexandrinus needs to be revised, and we propose that Kentish Plover and Snowy Plover be recognized as separate species: C. alexandrinus and C. nivosus, respectively. Are there any North American records of the Kentish Plover and are there any Old World records of the Snowy Plover? sincerely -- Ian Paulsen Bainbridge Island, WA, USA " Which just goes to show that a passion for books is extremely unhealthy." from Cornelia Funke's "Inkheart". Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:17:46 -0500 There are a few records of Cook's Petrels from the Salton Sea so they certainly occur in the Gulf of California. Given the large number of Cook's that were relatively close-in to CA this year (although still beyond the continental shelf), I don't think it's impossible you could have seen Cook's, although I agree that you should be questioning the circumstances. It's a pity the photos aren't closer. The birds might well be Cook's Petrels. However, I don't think one can even rule out terns of some kind - not suggesting that they are - but the photos basically aren't much use. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Cook's Petrels off Sonora ? From: Matthew O'Brien <matthewobrien AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:50:17 -0700 This photo shows a mixed flock of petrels and storm-petrels taken very close to shore along the coast of the Gulf of California just north of Guaymas, Sonora, Mexico. (http://rdrop.com/users/green/petrel/petrels.jpg) This photo was taken on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 around 4 PM. The photo is a relatively narrow horizontal slice cut from the original to preserve the photo quality, but not create too large a file size. I apologized for the distance to the birds - and their size. Within this flock - and many others that I saw from 9/25 to 9/29 - are petrels whose identity I believe to be COOK's PETRELS, or much less likely, Stejneger's Petrels. The best example, I believe, is the bird that is fifth from the right, wheeling away and showing its underparts. Compare its size to the fourth bird from the right, a much smaller Storm-petrel which I believe to be a Wedge-rumped. Others can be picked out across the photo. During our five days at sea, I encountered mixed flocks of petrels perhaps 15 times. Flocks were typically composed of 15-35 birds. Some smaller groups would be seen flying by, but all feeding flocks had a larger number of birds. These birds began occurring about two miles north of Bahia San Carlos, and extended up into the channel between Isla San Pedro Nolasco and the shore to its east. We were never more than three miles from shore. My primary conundrum with these sightings are that all sources say that Cook's Petrel is a bird of the open ocean, deep seas. These flocks of petrels ranged out to our maximum distance from shore of three miles, but also came into the mouth of coves in which we anchored. The distances to adjoining vertical cliffs was several hundred feet, and in some cases a few birds came briefly into the coves to within several hundred yards of the beach. Water depth was about 10-15 fathoms maximum at these cove entrances. Not withstanding the reports this year of unusually high amounts of Cook's Petrels in the Pacific as far north as Monterey - it seems an extraordinary location: along the Sonora coast of the Gulf of California in shallow water near shore? There are two mitigating facts which I've considered: Hurricane Jimena, a very large and powerful hurricane, sliced up the Pacific side of Baja California and hooked onto the peninsula near Cabo San Lazaro and entered the Gulf between Santa Rosalia and Mulege - southwest of Guaymas. Jimena then stalled just off Guaymas on September 3 & 4, and rainfall totals for 36 hours were around 40 inches of rain. Heavy flooding occurred. Could this storm have blown in these large amount of petrels? Second, the flooding on land created large amounts of nutrients in the run- off. We were able to observe massive amounts of fry, small minnows, shrimp and other small food sources in schools all along shore. This sudden bonanza of available food attracted large mixed flocks of pelicans, frigatebirds, cormorants, seagulls, terns, Brown Boobies, etc. to feed in flocks in the light surf right along the beach. The petrels didn't venture this far, however. I would appreciate the comments and advice of anyone familiar with west- coast pelagic birds - a skill I've not developed that well. Thanks. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: CA peep From: Matt Sadowski <matt.sadowski AT COX.NET> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:46:48 -0700 There were also additional photos of the Limantour peep posted on NorthBayBirds: http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/1947215/or/977537090/name/STINT+4997.jpg http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/1947215/or/590554838/name/long-toed+stint.jpg http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/1947215/or/802527852/name/PA242035-adj.jpg http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/1947215/or/139514647/name/PA242073-adj.jpg http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/1947215/or/1636697610/name/PA241952-adj.jpg http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/1947215/or/1063301444/name/P1010109.JPG http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/1947215/or/2074888197/name/P1010110.JPG The fifth link down shows the bird stretching its wings. Unfortunately the upperside is not clearly visible and only one tip of a greater secondary covert is showing (it does look like thick white edging though). I haven't seen it mentioned yet but the UNDERwing of the Limantour bird shows brown-washed primary coverts and white secondary coverts. The secondary coverts are overexposed but regardless there does not seem to be any detectable brown wash there. Hayman/Marchant/Prater mention this difference but the illustration isn't very good. Looking at the Slater Museum of Natural History wing photo collection the difference is much more obvious with Long-toed showing a brown wash all the way down the secondary coverts (admittedly the collection does not have a hatch-year Long-toed wing). Long-toed Stint underwings: http://digitalcollections.ups.edu/u?/slaterBirdWing,11486 http://digitalcollections.ups.edu/u?/slaterBirdWing,11488 Least Sandpiper underwings: http://digitalcollections.ups.edu/u?/slaterBirdWing,11416 http://digitalcollections.ups.edu/u?/slaterBirdWing,11418 http://digitalcollections.ups.edu/u?/slaterBirdWing,11420 http://digitalcollections.ups.edu/u?/slaterBirdWing,11422 http://digitalcollections.ups.edu/u?/slaterBirdWing,11424 http://digitalcollections.ups.edu/u?/slaterBirdWing,11426 Matt Sadowski Chula Vista, CA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: CA Least Sand From: Julian Hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:06:05 -0400 I was just able to see some pictures http://www.noahstrycker.com/photos/700/longtoedstint.htm of the bird and it's a first-winter (first-basic) Least Sandpiper. - upperpart feathers aren't dark enough - the dark areas being confined to the shaft area, not mostly dark-centered as in Long-toed. - bill size and shape - uniformly dark and slightly decurved, lacking a paler base typical of Least - legs look shorter in the photos than they appeared in the video and the central toe looks to be shorter than the bill length, not longer as it would be in Long-toed. - rusty fringes to retained juvenile coverts and shape of the rear median/greater coverts has a uniform pale fringe, with the dark centre not bisecting it. - head pattern looks fairly typical of Least with a narrow diffuse pale supercilium In the photos the impression is more of a typical Least Sandpiper than in the video which was surprising. best, Julian Hough, CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Gavin Bieber To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 7:41 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Least/Long-toed. I find this pair tricky enough in juv. and alternate plumage, but this individual seems not to be a great candidate for Long-toed... Gavin Bieber Kingbird77 AT hotmail.com Tucson, AZ Senior Leader, WINGS www.wingsbirds.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Windows 7: Simplify your PC. Learn more. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Least/Long-toed. From: Julian Hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:54:05 -0400 The "tringa-like" feeding behaviour does look odd for Least, but Long-toed is one bird I'm really not that familiar with and first-winter Least Sandpipers are hard to come-by. The general shape, often looking rather longer-legged than Least is better for Long-toed, but the long bill and the shape of it is rather Least-like and I couldn't detect any pale base to the bill which again is good for Least. I don't think I've seen any photos of Long-toed where the bill is that long... The greyish breast markings extending onto the flanks would seem a better fit for Long-toed (?) and the white "headlights" on the loral area also might be better for Long-toed. Toe length looks long in some frames, but I have a hard time gauging exactly if the toes are long enough - are they longer than the bill length?? The bird appears to be a juvenile moulted into first-basic plumage and has some retained juvenile feathers. From what I can see of the retained juvenile coverts they seem to be a better fir for Least, though I have to admit it's hard to say for certain if the dark feather centres do or don't bisect the pale feather fringe, one of the better pro-Long-toed features separating them from Least. Be nice to see some photos, but bill length and shape and apparent lack of a paler base would be indicative of Least at this point.. best, Julian Hough, CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Gavin Bieber To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 7:41 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Least/Long-toed. I find this pair tricky enough in juv. and alternate plumage, but this individual seems not to be a great candidate for Long-toed... Gavin Bieber Kingbird77 AT hotmail.com Tucson, AZ Senior Leader, WINGS www.wingsbirds.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Windows 7: Simplify your PC. Learn more. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Least/Long-toed. From: Gavin Bieber <kingbird77 AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:41:28 +0000 I find this pair tricky enough in juv. and alternate plumage, but this individual seems not to be a great candidate for Long-toed... Gavin Bieber Kingbird77 AT hotmail.com Tucson, AZ Senior Leader, WINGS www.wingsbirds.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: Simplify your PC. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen1:102009 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Bright Winter Plumage (was: ID tip: Le Conte's Sparrow) From: Jesse Ellis <calocitta8 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:52:14 -0500 Hello All- Not to belabor the subject, but we do know a lot about characteristics that sexual selection operates on in different species. I would argue that sparrows haven't needed to "solve" the problem of molt precisely because sparrows don't care about flashy colors - they care about songs. A few use badges of status on the non-breeding grounds (Harris's Sparrows, for instance), but by and large plumage seems to be less important in securing a good breeding territory and/or a mate than song performance. It doesn't matter to the other Le Conte's Sparrows if a dude looks crappy in spring if he can still sing his butt off. (Tslzz) Anyway, whether the "adaptationist" program is correct or not, it's worth considering the life history trade offs and other selective factors when considering how adaptations work. Jesse Ellis Madison, WI On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:19 AM, Michael Price wrote: > Hi All, > > First, I'll ask Allan Chartier's forgiveness in leading his original > question into possible off-topic areas. I really do hope you get a reply, > Allan! (full disclosure: partly because that's an ID problem that observers > in Vancouver BC would love to have, and which may occur here. So there's a > vested interest in you getting an answer.) > > I thank all who, privately and publicly, responded to my query with more > knowledge and perspectives on the question than I thought possible. Though > there might have been a temptation to sigh, roll one's eyes and mutter > " AT #$%ing amateurs...." ---and I acknowledge that my questions were based on > a far more simplistic base of understanding than the subject > required---there is still the tendency of much of the non-specialist > literature, including many field guides, to encourage what Ted Floyd cited > as 'adaptationist thinking.', that the Alternate plumage is there for a > reason, sexual selection, and it gets worn and useless after the breeding > season and replaced with a Basic plumage which has nothing to do with > anything but the dreary survival of the intervening winter, and any > variation is anomalous and inexplicable, period. Any of the above discussion > is almost completely absent from most non-specialist birding literature. > > I realise there's only so much you can cram into a field guide---maybe > excepting Lars Jonsson's terrific introduction to his *Birds of Europe*field guide, which is actually a small book-within-a-book---or ancillary > non-specialist literature, but it does rather lead the non-specialist into > conceptual error if this is presented as the paradigm with few to no > alternatives. Perhaps future non-specialist literature and revisions to > existing works can address this in some way that adaptionist thinking > doesn't lead us into such conceptual temptation into which I have clearly > fallen. > > My thanks, again. > > Best wishes > > Michael Price > Vancouver BC Canada > loblollyboy AT gmail.com > > "I feel like a fugitive from th' law of averages!" -- GI Willie > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > -- Jesse Ellis Madison, Dane Co, WI Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Long-toed Stint/Least Sandpiper From: Jim Pike <jpike44 AT EARTHLINK.NET> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:41:05 -0700 Hi, Noah Strycker posted some superb photos of this bird which can be found here: http://www.noahstrycker.com/photos/700/longtoedstint.htm I think the bird is much less interesting as a candidate for Long-toed Stint in the still photos than it is in the video. Jim Pike Huntington Beach Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Long-toed Stint/Least Sandpiper From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:18:35 -0700 Hello all - A small Calidris sandpiper in Central California over the past three days is suspected to be a Long-toed Stint, but it makes us realize how little we study and understand variation in Least Sandpipers: http://thebloggerhead.wordpress.com/ Comments welcomed, and please cc Keith Hansen Thanks, Peter Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: late Empidonax flycatcher in New Brunsick (Canada) From: Stuart Tingley <tingley AT NBNET.NB.CA> Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:24:16 -0700 Greetings all, Several of us discovered a late Empidonax flycatcher near the southern tip of Grand Manan Island in the Bay of Fundy, New Brunswick, Canada on October 23, 2009. After pursuing it for some time in deep shade in the understory of a spruce forest the bird eventually flew into full light and perched on dead limbs along the beach. My initial impressions were of a somewhat large, dumpy Empidonax with an amazing shade of green on the back and head, large head with a prominently peaked crown, narrow and somewhat irregular off-white eyering, heavy broad-based bill with extensive orange on the lower mandible and long primary projection. The underparts seem to show a pale whitish throat with a pale yellowish wash across the breast, along the flanks and undertail coverts. I (perhaps too quickly) felt that structure and plumage eliminated all North American Empies except Acadian and Alder/Willow and the unique colour of the back and head pointed strongly in favour of Acadian. I've never seen an Alder/Willow with this colour of upperparts but then again I've probably never seen an Alder/Willow in late October. The pewee-esque structure also strongly reminded me of my few previous encounters with Acadians. The bird appears to be in active wing moult and seems to show a combination of old and new primaries. Our efforts to photograph the bird with our non-SLR digital cameras was somewhat pathetic. We phoned a nearby birder with an SLR who managed to arrive quickly and take a few shots but I feel that none of the shots portray the bird as it appeared in the field, especially the unique colour of the upperparts and distribution of yellowish on the underparts. Photos taken by Gilles Belliveau with a non-SLR can be viewed at the following links: http://stubird.dreamhost.com/P1130014.JPG http://stubird.dreamhost.com/P1130025.JPG http://stubird.dreamhost.com/P1130032.JPG http://stubird.dreamhost.com/P1130045.JPG http://stubird.dreamhost.com/P1130046.JPG Photos taken by Durlan Ingersoll with a DSLR can be viewed here: http://stubird.dreamhost.com/IMG_6056%20AF%2009-1_1.jpg http://stubird.dreamhost.com/IMG_6058%20AF09-4_2.jpg http://stubird.dreamhost.com/IMG_6060%20AF09-2_4.jpg And finally one poor photo taken by me: http://stubird.dreamhost.com/P1090437.JPG There is only one documented record of Acadian Flycatcher for New Brunswick (May 10, 1992) but there are several records for Nova Scotia and Maine. To my knowledge there is no pattern of vagrancy in the northeast in October. I'd appreciate any comments from readers on features supporting or contradicting Acadian that are visible in these admittedly marginal photos. Thanks and Great Birding! Stu Tingley Shediac Cape, New Brunswick (Canada) Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Golden-Plover Sp., South Carolina, USA, 7/4/09 From: Kevin Karlson <karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 16:24:18 +0000 Re: [BIRDWG01] Golden-Plover Sp., South Carolina, USA, 7/4/09 To All: I have been away from my computer for a few days and missed this discussion, but I was happy to read the comments of others before I added my opinion. One thing I want to point out is the variable plumage condition of adult AGPLs, with some birds showing a mottled condition to their breeding plumage in June on the breeding grounds (see this adult female AGPl photographed on the North Slope of Alaska in mid-June http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Shorebirds/Plovers/American+Golden+Plover_+br+female_+AK_+June.jpg.html . Some might suggest that this bird is already in partial body molt , but I have seen numbers of female AGPLs during my four years as a biologist on the North Slope that appeared similar to this bird in early June, which suggests that some individuals only show this mottled appearance. Adult males do not show this incomplete plumage. I have also noted that adults start to show feather wear and some  partial body molt on the tundra by late June prior to migrating south. Doug Pratt's points on the configuration of the white pattern on the sides of the upper breast for AGPL are supported by the previous photo as well, and this plumage condition matches the South Carolina bird. I am not so sure that this bird is in active molt at all, but only showing typical wear of a mottled adult female in early July. AGPLs do not replace all their wing coverts prior to migration, but retain variable numbers of nonbreeding feathers depending upon energy levels during migration. Note the scattered nonbreeding feathers on this adult male photographed in Alaska on the breeding grounds in early June http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Shorebirds/Plovers/AGPL+m_+br_+nest+distraction_+AK_+July.jpg.html . Even some nonbreeding scapulars are retained on this adult male, which typically show a more complete plumage condition than females. The South Carolina bird does not show any appreciable molt in my opinion, and since AGPLs begin their molt on the breeding grounds and suspend active molt during migration, this bird conforms to what I would expect from a worn adult female AGPL. I agree with Peter Pyle in that it is difficult to age AGPLs in spring due to the winter molt pattern of both adults and juveniles, so I would be hesitant to call this bird an early second calendar year bird . I think the overall shape, especially the small pigeon-like head, are consistent with AGPL, unlike the juvenile bird in Quebec, which unfortunately went down as a bright AGPL (Why did we not get to see the 7 comments only posted privately to Laval Roy that suggested AGPL instead of PGPL)? The bill appears slightly long for AGPL, but it is thin and not as robust as PGPL typically shows. This feature is a good supportive feature for these two similar species, but not one to base a solid ID on. Another point in support of AGPL is the reduced gold and white feather edges and notches on the back at this early summer date. PGPL should show much bolder and larger gold edges and notches, which give the back a brighter overall gold appearance compared to AGPL. The body structure is also more bottom heavy, which is better for AGPL, and not as chest-heavy as PGPL, which oftne results in a more horizontal posture for AGPL when relaxed at rest. However, as pointed out by Lee Evans, it is very difficult to judge body posture from only one or two photos. I think it is safe to say that this is a typical female AGPL in early July, which is not terribly outside the migratory range for this species. A failed breeder from Churchil could conceivably start migrating a few weeks earlier than other adult birds. I photographed this worn AGPL in Cape May NJ in mid-August a few years ago http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Shorebirds/Plovers/American+Golden+Plover_+molting+adult_+NJ_+Aug.jpg.html , although this one suggests an early second calendar year bird that has a good mixture of breeding and fairly fresh nonbreeding feathers. kevin karlson ------ Original Message ----- From: "Ken Blankenship" To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:56:06 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [BIRDWG01] Golden-Plover Sp., South Carolina, USA, 7/4/09 The photograph below was submitted without comment to the Carolina Bird Club webmaster Kent Fiala, who posted it to their website at this link: http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/amgp_giduz.html Thankfully, the records compiler for the Carolinas (Josh Southern) was gleaning from the photo gallery and came across it; it was never posted on any ListServ nor was there any discussion that I am aware of. The assumption was that it is an AMERICAN GOLDEN-PLOVER, as this is the expected species in our region. However, the date is quite exceptional in my opinion: 4 July 2009. I am far from a shorebird expert, and not at all experienced with Pacific Golden-Plover. Still, I just feel that the date alone merits this bird being considered by experts just to make sure a much rarer species was not overlooked. Though I would imagine an AGPL is much more likely - a failed breeder, a bird who did not successfully bulk up and never completed migration, etc... I would simply appreciate some feedback to make sure. Thank you, Ken Blankenship Editor, "From the Field" (Georgia Ornithological Society) Southern Atlantic Regional Editor, "North American Birds" (American Birding Association) http://www.wingsoverga.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: SC Golden Plover From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 05:52:07 EDT Doug, Phil and co At no point did I categorically state that the SC bird IS a Pacific Golden Plover just that I felt some of the features visible in the single image suggested that of fulva. I was mostly trying to once again highlight that it is probably folly to make any sort of commitment on one photograph of what is a very difficult identification species-pair. I would only be prepared to make a firm commitment to id were I to see this bird in the flesh or see an excellent suite of images detailing the salient features. Even then, knowing the complexity and variation in these two species, it might be difficult to make an accurate assessment. I fully agree with the sentiments made by Doug, Peter Pyle and Julian Hough and yes, it could very well be just an American Golden Plover. We are learning time and time again just HOW DIFFICULT it is to separate both first-summer and moulting summer Pacific Golden and American Golden Plovers, with many of the characters of both species overlapping (calls, tibia length, foot projection). We have seen two very educational birds in Britain this year (both in Norfolk), both of which took a great deal of effort to sort out despite they both showed admirably and at very close range and were very well photographed (images and detail published on my Rare Bird Alert blog) I am assuming that this is the best image available of this particular individual Best wishes Lee G R Evans British Birding Association UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and Conservationist Discussion Forum/Email Group: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/) Rare Bird Alert: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/) Email Address: LGREUK400 AT aol.com Website Address: _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ (http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) Related Blog Sites: _http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/_ (http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/) _ http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.com/ http://birdingamersham.blogspot.com/_ (http://birdingamersham.blogspot.com/) _ http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.com/_ (http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.com/) _http://calvertbirding.blogspot.com/_ (http://calvertbirding.blogspot.com/) _http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.com/_ (http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.com/) _http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.com/_ (http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.com/) _http://birdreportexchange.blogspot.com/_ (http://birdreportexchange.blogspot.com/) Chaffinch House 8 Sandycroft Road Little Chalfont Amersham Buckinghamshire England HP6 6QL Telephones: 01494 763010 and 01494 581157 Mobile/Text Alerts: 07881 906629 (Lee Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird occurrences in Britain & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western Palearctic and in North America; Rare Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and other related publications; Bird Tours for Birders) Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 From: Julian Hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:03:38 -0400 Peter and Doug, as usual, expanded on the bird's identity with some additional important features. The primaries being retained in 2nd cal yr Pacifics vs American's was noted and used on a couple of other "problem" birds this past year, notably a "non-breeding" bird in the UK. I agree with Doug about the breast pattern bulge. Also, the presence or absence of black on the flanks can be hard to assess (on some birds) when the wing may be obscuring these areas and I couldn't get a sense from that one pic what was actually going on there, other than to say that there seemed to be a lot of black butting up against the wingedge - again better for AGPL. I agree it fits AGPL rather than PAGP but again, these birds have prompted us to look closely at features and moult patterns that will greatly assist observers in making correct ids of percieved difficult birds. Best, Julian Hough, CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Pyle" To: Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 > Hello Julian and all - > > Typically we cannot age American Golden-Plovers in spring because both > first-cycle and adult birds undergo a complete molt on the winter grounds, > and we lose characters related to molt limits and flight-feather > condition. Pacific Golden-Plover differs in that the preformative > (post-juvenile) molt is partial, with the juvenal primaries, etc. > retained, and so SYs (second-calendar-year birds) are much easier to age > in spring by, for example, having very worn and bleached outer primaries. > The SC bird has outer primaries in pretty good shape for July, leading me > to believe that it is not an SY Pacific. > > I agree with Doug Pratt that the best feature indicating American for this > bird is the shape of the white stripe along the sides of the breast, > bulging at the top of the wing and not extending down the flanks. I also > agree that the wing-tips look long for Pacific, relative to the tail tip. > As for age on an American, I don't think we can make a definitive call, > although it is likely that SYs average less-extensive and less-bright > breeding plumage in their first summer, sex for sex. I feel a little more > comfortable calling it a female, though, based on plumage. > > Peter Pyle > > At 05:20 PM 10/22/2009, Julian Hough wrote: >>Ken, >> >>On an initial glance, I don't see too much wrong for American Golden >>Plover, so I would respectfully disagree with Lee's comments about the >>bird being a Pacific..or maybe I'm just not seeing it. The overall shape >>looks OK for AGPL and there seems to be rather a lot of whitish-tipped >>feathers on the upperparts and wings and the wingpoint looks long and >>extends past the tail quite a bit. I often have an impossible time trying >>to use bill length as an indicator. >>Again, tough from one image. >>The second question would be to age the bird...are we sure it's an adult? >>Could it be a 2nd cal-year bird? >>The wingtips look long, too long for a Pacific but it's hard to judge the >>wear - they don't look too frayed and warn, but appear brownish. American >>Golden Plovers molt into breeding plumage later than Pacifics (May), so >>one would expect AGPL in July to be rather crisp and stunning, whereas >>Pacifics attain breeding plumage earlier and so by late summer would be >>more worn. The bird is rather tatty for an American Golden Plover in July, >>but maybe it's due to poor health or just a bird in advanced plumage. >>Maybe Kevin Karlson, or Peter Pyle could add something relevant on molt of >>this bird since that may hold a clue to it's identity? >> >>best, >> >>Julian Hough, >>CT, USA >>jrhough1 AT snet.net >> >>www.naturescapeimages.net >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Blankenship" >> >>To: >>Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 6:32 PM >>Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 >> >> >>Hello, folks. A second photograph of the unknown Golden-Plover in South >>Carolina, USA on 4 July 2009 has been added at the link below: >> >>http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/amgp_giduz.html >> >>I have not received as much feedback so far as I might have hoped, but I >>also acknowledge that the photos taken by the observer are not terribly >>good for such a difficult identification. I have been pointed towards >>Pacific Golden-Plover by a few experts, both on this ListServ and via >>personal emails. >> >>But of course, I recognize the possibility that a 100% certain ID may not >>be possible given the photos. If more become available I will keep this >>group informed. >> >>Thank you for any additional comments you may have, >> >>Ken Blankenship >>Editor, "From the Field" (Georgia Ornithological Society) >>Southern Atlantic Regional Editor, "North American Birds" (American >>Birding Association) >>http://www.wingsoverga.com >> >> >>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >>http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >> >>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >>http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:21:28 -0700 Hello Julian and all - Typically we cannot age American Golden-Plovers in spring because both first-cycle and adult birds undergo a complete molt on the winter grounds, and we lose characters related to molt limits and flight-feather condition. Pacific Golden-Plover differs in that the preformative (post-juvenile) molt is partial, with the juvenal primaries, etc. retained, and so SYs (second-calendar-year birds) are much easier to age in spring by, for example, having very worn and bleached outer primaries. The SC bird has outer primaries in pretty good shape for July, leading me to believe that it is not an SY Pacific. I agree with Doug Pratt that the best feature indicating American for this bird is the shape of the white stripe along the sides of the breast, bulging at the top of the wing and not extending down the flanks. I also agree that the wing-tips look long for Pacific, relative to the tail tip. As for age on an American, I don't think we can make a definitive call, although it is likely that SYs average less-extensive and less-bright breeding plumage in their first summer, sex for sex. I feel a little more comfortable calling it a female, though, based on plumage. Peter Pyle At 05:20 PM 10/22/2009, Julian Hough wrote: >Ken, > >On an initial glance, I don't see too much wrong for American Golden >Plover, so I would respectfully disagree with Lee's comments about >the bird being a Pacific..or maybe I'm just not seeing it. The >overall shape looks OK for AGPL and there seems to be rather a lot >of whitish-tipped feathers on the upperparts and wings and the >wingpoint looks long and extends past the tail quite a bit. I often >have an impossible time trying to use bill length as an indicator. >Again, tough from one image. >The second question would be to age the bird...are we sure it's an >adult? Could it be a 2nd cal-year bird? >The wingtips look long, too long for a Pacific but it's hard to >judge the wear - they don't look too frayed and warn, but appear >brownish. American Golden Plovers molt into breeding plumage later >than Pacifics (May), so one would expect AGPL in July to be rather >crisp and stunning, whereas Pacifics attain breeding plumage earlier >and so by late summer would be more worn. The bird is rather tatty >for an American Golden Plover in July, but maybe it's due to poor >health or just a bird in advanced plumage. >Maybe Kevin Karlson, or Peter Pyle could add something relevant on >molt of this bird since that may hold a clue to it's identity? > >best, > >Julian Hough, >CT, USA >jrhough1 AT snet.net > >www.naturescapeimages.net >----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Blankenship" > >To: >Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 6:32 PM >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 > > >Hello, folks. A second photograph of the unknown Golden-Plover in South >Carolina, USA on 4 July 2009 has been added at the link below: > >http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/amgp_giduz.html > >I have not received as much feedback so far as I might have hoped, but I >also acknowledge that the photos taken by the observer are not terribly >good for such a difficult identification. I have been pointed towards >Pacific Golden-Plover by a few experts, both on this ListServ and via >personal emails. > >But of course, I recognize the possibility that a 100% certain ID may not >be possible given the photos. If more become available I will keep this >group informed. > >Thank you for any additional comments you may have, > >Ken Blankenship >Editor, "From the Field" (Georgia Ornithological Society) >Southern Atlantic Regional Editor, "North American Birds" (American >Birding Association) >http://www.wingsoverga.com > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: SC Golden Plover From: "Pratt, Doug" <doug.pratt AT NCDENR.GOV> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:43:57 -0400 Hi folks: I agree with Julian that this bird looks fine for AGP. I see lots of PGP, and this bird has a very different jizz. The most conspicuous field mark, that has not been mentioned by all you caliper birders, is the pattern of the black in the underparts. Even with molt under way, the white bulge at the sides of the breast and black reaching all the way up to the wings is obvious on this bitrd. This pattern is characteristic of breeding AGP, and is NEVER seen in PGP. Doug H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D. Research Curator of Birds North Carolina State Museum of Natural Sciences 11 West Jones Street Raleigh, NC 27601 (919) 733-7450 ex 728 *E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties.* ________________________________________ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 From: Steven Mlodinow <sgmlod AT AOL.COM> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:32:58 -0400 Greetings All Without taking a longer look, I can not really ID this bird But let me say a couple things First, I agree with Julian in a gut instinct that this is a 1 year old bird; many of our early southbound birds in WA are as well. Secondly, I must agree with Phil and Lee that the bill looks rather long for a AGPL. However, wear around the base of the bill can accentuate that, and that should be re-looked at/considered. Third, to me, the primary extension seems somewhat at the long end for PGPL and I really don't see any yellow in the supercilium on my computer. So, as I said, I can't identify this bird from these couple photos. Birds in this plumage are often exceptionally difficult to identify, and I have prolonged good looks at lone individuals -- and had to walk away leaving them as "Golden-Plover." Cheers Steve Mlodinow -----Original Message----- From: phil barnett To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Fri, Oct 23, 2009 3:35 am Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 At this risk of agreeing with Lee again, I think the bird is probably a Pacific. Looking in 'Tundra Plovers' it says "projected backwards, the bill reaches well beyond the eye in Pacific, but barely across the eye in American.....". Commencing body moult in early July would also be fine for Pacific, but outside the typical range for adult and 2nd cal year American. Cheers, Phil --- On Fri, 23/10/09, Julian Hough wrote: From: Julian Hough Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Date: Friday, 23 October, 2009, 1:20 AM Ken, On an initial glance, I don't see too much wrong for American Golden Plover, so I would respectfully disagree with Lee's comments about the bird being a Pacific..or maybe I'm just not seeing it. The overall shape looks OK for AGPL and there seems to be rather a lot of whitish-tipped feathers on the upperparts and wings and the wingpoint looks long and extends past the tail quite a bit. I often have an impossible time trying to use bill length as an indicator. Again, tough from one image. The second question would be to age the bird...are we sure it's an adult? Could it be a 2nd cal-year bird? The wingtips look long, too long for a Pacific but it's hard to judge the wear - they don't look too frayed and warn, but appear brownish. American Golden Plovers molt into breeding plumage later than Pacifics (May), so one would expect AGPL in July to be rather crisp and stunning, whereas Pacifics attain breeding plumage earlier and so by late summer would be more worn. The bird is rather tatty for an American Golden Plover in July, but maybe it's due to poor health or just a bird in advanced plumage. Maybe Kevin Karlson, or Peter Pyle could add something relevant on molt of this bird since that may hold a clue to it's identity? best, Julian Hough, CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Blankenship" To: Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 Hello, folks. A second photograph of the unknown Golden-Plover in South Carolina, USA on 4 July 2009 has been added at the link below: http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/amgp_giduz.html I have not received as much feedback so far as I might have hoped, but I also acknowledge that the photos taken by the observer are not terribly good for such a difficult identification. I have been pointed towards Pacific Golden-Plover by a few experts, both on this ListServ and via personal emails. But of course, I recognize the possibility that a 100% certain ID may not be possible given the photos. If more become available I will keep this group informed. Thank you for any additional comments you may have, Ken Blankenship Editor, "From the Field" (Georgia Ornithological Society) Southern Atlantic Regional Editor, "North American Birds" (American Birding Association) http://www.wingsoverga.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 From: phil barnett <philbarnettox AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 03:35:17 -0700 At this risk of agreeing with Lee again, I think the bird is probably a Pacific. Looking in 'Tundra Plovers' it says "projected backwards, the bill reaches well beyond the eye in Pacific, but barely across the eye in American.....". Commencing body moult in early July would also be fine for Pacific, but outside the typical range for adult and 2nd cal year American.            Cheers,   Phil --- On Fri, 23/10/09, Julian Hough wrote: From: Julian Hough Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Date: Friday, 23 October, 2009, 1:20 AM Ken, On an initial glance, I don't see too much wrong for American Golden Plover, so I would respectfully disagree with Lee's comments about the bird being a Pacific..or maybe I'm just not seeing it. The overall shape looks OK for AGPL and there seems to be rather a lot of whitish-tipped feathers on the upperparts and wings and the wingpoint looks long and extends past the tail quite a bit. I often have an impossible time trying to use bill length as an indicator. Again, tough from one image. The second question would be to age the bird...are we sure it's an adult? Could it be a 2nd cal-year bird? The wingtips look long, too long for a Pacific but it's hard to judge the wear - they don't look too frayed and warn, but appear brownish. American Golden Plovers molt into breeding plumage later than Pacifics (May), so one would expect AGPL in July to be rather crisp and stunning, whereas Pacifics attain breeding plumage earlier and so by late summer would be more worn. The bird is rather tatty for an American Golden Plover in July, but maybe it's due to poor health or just a bird in advanced plumage. Maybe Kevin Karlson, or Peter Pyle could add something relevant on molt of this bird since that may hold a clue to it's identity? best, Julian Hough, CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Blankenship" To: Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 Hello, folks. A second photograph of the unknown Golden-Plover in South Carolina, USA on 4 July 2009 has been added at the link below: http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/amgp_giduz.html I have not received as much feedback so far as I might have hoped, but I also acknowledge that the photos taken by the observer are not terribly good for such a difficult identification. I have been pointed towards Pacific Golden-Plover by a few experts, both on this ListServ and via personal emails. But of course, I recognize the possibility that a 100% certain ID may not be possible given the photos. If more become available I will keep this group informed. Thank you for any additional comments you may have, Ken Blankenship Editor, "From the Field" (Georgia Ornithological Society) Southern Atlantic Regional Editor, "North American Birds" (American Birding Association) http://www.wingsoverga.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 From: Julian Hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:20:45 -0400 Ken, On an initial glance, I don't see too much wrong for American Golden Plover, so I would respectfully disagree with Lee's comments about the bird being a Pacific..or maybe I'm just not seeing it. The overall shape looks OK for AGPL and there seems to be rather a lot of whitish-tipped feathers on the upperparts and wings and the wingpoint looks long and extends past the tail quite a bit. I often have an impossible time trying to use bill length as an indicator. Again, tough from one image. The second question would be to age the bird...are we sure it's an adult? Could it be a 2nd cal-year bird? The wingtips look long, too long for a Pacific but it's hard to judge the wear - they don't look too frayed and warn, but appear brownish. American Golden Plovers molt into breeding plumage later than Pacifics (May), so one would expect AGPL in July to be rather crisp and stunning, whereas Pacifics attain breeding plumage earlier and so by late summer would be more worn. The bird is rather tatty for an American Golden Plover in July, but maybe it's due to poor health or just a bird in advanced plumage. Maybe Kevin Karlson, or Peter Pyle could add something relevant on molt of this bird since that may hold a clue to it's identity? best, Julian Hough, CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Blankenship" To: Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 Hello, folks. A second photograph of the unknown Golden-Plover in South Carolina, USA on 4 July 2009 has been added at the link below: http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/amgp_giduz.html I have not received as much feedback so far as I might have hoped, but I also acknowledge that the photos taken by the observer are not terribly good for such a difficult identification. I have been pointed towards Pacific Golden-Plover by a few experts, both on this ListServ and via personal emails. But of course, I recognize the possibility that a 100% certain ID may not be possible given the photos. If more become available I will keep this group informed. Thank you for any additional comments you may have, Ken Blankenship Editor, "From the Field" (Georgia Ornithological Society) Southern Atlantic Regional Editor, "North American Birds" (American Birding Association) http://www.wingsoverga.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 01:24:51 +0200 It would be interesting to read the opinions of those who wrote privately so that we can all learn from their arguments. This bird is a wonderfull example of confusing all camps. Lee points at the rather long tibia which may favour PAGOPL. AMGOPL however has tibia that vary in length some of which seem to overlap with PAGOPL as in my opinion is the case with this bird. The long wings extending clearly passed the tail favours AMGOPL since the wingtips of PAGOPL barely exceed the tip of the tail. So my vote goes to AMGOPL probably a female. Cheers, Norman Ken Blankenship wrote>: A second photograph of the unknown Golden-Plover in South Carolina, USA on 4 July 2009 has been added at the link below: http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/amgp_giduz.html I have not received as much feedback so far as I might have hoped, but I also acknowledge that the photos taken by the observer are not terribly good for such a difficult identification. I have been pointed towards Pacific Golden-Plover by a few experts, both on this ListServ and via personal emails. But of course, I recognize the possibility that a 100% certain ID may not be possible given the photos. If more become available I will keep this group informed. Thank you for any additional comments you may have, Ken Blankenship Editor, "From the Field" (Georgia Ornithological Society) Southern Atlantic Regional Editor, "North American Birds" (American Birding Association) http://www.wingsoverga.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Golden-Plover Species, South Carolina, USA 7/4/09 From: Ken Blankenship <kenhblankenship AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:32:00 -0700 Hello, folks. A second photograph of the unknown Golden-Plover in South Carolina, USA on 4 July 2009 has been added at the link below: http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/amgp_giduz.html I have not received as much feedback so far as I might have hoped, but I also acknowledge that the photos taken by the observer are not terribly good for such a difficult identification. I have been pointed towards Pacific Golden-Plover by a few experts, both on this ListServ and via personal emails. But of course, I recognize the possibility that a 100% certain ID may not be possible given the photos. If more become available I will keep this group informed. Thank you for any additional comments you may have, Ken Blankenship Editor, "From the Field" (Georgia Ornithological Society) Southern Atlantic Regional Editor, "North American Birds" (American Birding Association) http://www.wingsoverga.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Golden-Plover Sp., South Carolina, USA, 7/4/09 From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:44:00 EDT In a message dated 22/10/2009 16:56:54 GMT Daylight Time, kenhblankenship AT COMCAST.NET writes: http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/amgp_giduz.html Ken As you are already aware, judging the identification of these two species from photographs alone (and not having the benefit of seeing them in the field) is really fraught with problems and very often the incorrect solution can arise or be recommended. Even when seeing the two in the flesh, they can be remarbably problematic, particularly as in the case of many individuals, they are in active primary moult and tertials are either growing or have been dropped. Yes, from what I can see of your 4 July bird, this does certainly suggest fulva (Pacific Golden Plover), with a long straight and relatively slim bill, a somewhat buff-tinged supercilium, quite active moult (AGP tends to retain much breeding plumage well into September) and the correct tertial-primary projection ratios. It is difficult to judge the leg length but the tibia does seem typically long as in PGP. However, I would still caution identification based on this one image All the very best Lee G R Evans British Birding Association UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and Conservationist Discussion Forum/Email Group: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/) Rare Bird Alert: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/) Email Address: LGREUK400 AT aol.com Website Address: _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ (http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) Related Blog Sites: _http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/_ (http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/) _ http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.com/ http://birdingamersham.blogspot.com/_ (http://birdingamersham.blogspot.com/) _ http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.com/_ (http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.com/) _http://calvertbirding.blogspot.com/_ (http://calvertbirding.blogspot.com/) _http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.com/_ (http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.com/) _http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.com/_ (http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.com/) _http://birdreportexchange.blogspot.com/_ (http://birdreportexchange.blogspot.com/) Chaffinch House 8 Sandycroft Road Little Chalfont Amersham Buckinghamshire England HP6 6QL Telephones: 01494 763010 and 01494 581157 Mobile/Text Alerts: 07881 906629 (Lee Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird occurrences in Britain & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western Palearctic and in North America; Rare Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and other related publications; Bird Tours for Birders) Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Golden-Plover Sp., South Carolina, USA, 7/4/09 From: Ken Blankenship <kenhblankenship AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 08:56:06 -0700 The photograph below was submitted without comment to the Carolina Bird Club webmaster Kent Fiala, who posted it to their website at this link: http://www.carolinabirdclub.org/gallery/amgp_giduz.html Thankfully, the records compiler for the Carolinas (Josh Southern) was gleaning from the photo gallery and came across it; it was never posted on any ListServ nor was there any discussion that I am aware of. The assumption was that it is an AMERICAN GOLDEN-PLOVER, as this is the expected species in our region. However, the date is quite exceptional in my opinion: 4 July 2009. I am far from a shorebird expert, and not at all experienced with Pacific Golden-Plover. Still, I just feel that the date alone merits this bird being considered by experts just to make sure a much rarer species was not overlooked. Though I would imagine an AGPL is much more likely - a failed breeder, a bird who did not successfully bulk up and never completed migration, etc... I would simply appreciate some feedback to make sure. Thank you, Ken Blankenship Editor, "From the Field" (Georgia Ornithological Society) Southern Atlantic Regional Editor, "North American Birds" (American Birding Association) http://www.wingsoverga.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: New paper on predicting vagrancy From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd57 AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:32:15 -0700 Hello, Birders. Although not about bird identification per se, a recent article by Sultan Hameed and coauthors will be of interest to F-IDers, I believe. The topic of the article is vagrancy, and the authors have developed a model that accurately predicts fallouts of Asian birds at Attu Island, Alaska. Here's a link to the paper itself: http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~sbf1/papers/Attu.pdf And here is further commentary by me: http://tiny.cc/hIwaf ------------------------------- Ted Floyd tedfloyd57 AT hotmail.com Lafayette, Boulder County, Colorado ------------------------------- Ted Floyd Editor, Birding ------------------------------- Please support the American Birding Association: Click on http://www.goodsearch.com/?charityid=884482 to search the internet. Check out the American Birding Association on FaceBook: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=22934255714 Check out the American Birding Association on Twitter: http://twitter.com/abaoutreach Please visit the website of the American Birding Association: http://www.aba.org _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Thermaling Nightjar? From: Martin Reid <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:20:25 -0500 Dear All, On Monday I saw what appears to have been a Pauraque-type nightjar migrating in the daytime by using thermals...: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/nightjar1.html I'd appreciate any thoughts on the ID if anyone has a better alternative than Pauraque, and also feedback about nightjar migration tactics, documented examples of this kind of event, etc. Just for fun, look at this page and compare it to the bird above - thank goodness the tail is too long on the Texas nightjar!: http://www.martinreid.com/Misc%20website/BR08Nacunda.html Cheers, Martin --- Martin Reid www.martinreid.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Unknown Dark Mantled Gull From: Philip Chaon <for_the_birds13 AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:04:21 -0700 Hi all,   First of all I apologize for the orignal message which sent without any content. I'm submitting this on behalf of a friend in Michigan who discovered a dark mantled gull on October 18th in Berrien County. Pictures can be found at http://picasaweb.google.com/DigiscopingTim/BerrienCounty#5394513648427249794   Any Comments on ID are appreciated.   Thanks,   Phil Chaon Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Unknown Dark Mantled Gull From: Philip Chaon <for_the_birds13 AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:59:43 -0700 Hi all,     Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html