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26 Jun Re: Unidentified Catharus thrush [Peter Pyle ] 26 Jun Re: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 25 Jun Re: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? [Kevin Karlson ] 26 Jun Re: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 25 Jun Re: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 25 Jun Unidentified Catharus thrush [Peter Pyle ] 25 Jun Re: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? [Peter Pyle ] 25 Jun Asymmetrical gull [Michael F ] 25 Jun Re: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? [Alvaro Jaramillo ] 25 Jun Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 23 Jun Re: FRANKLIN'S GULL [Tony Leukering ] 23 Jun FRANKLIN'S GULL [Lee G R Evans ] 22 Jun Re: Franklin's or Laughing Gull? [Julian Hough ] 22 Jun Franklin's or Laughing Gull? [Daniel Jones ] 22 Jun Re: asymmetrical Lesser Black-backed Gull [Floyd Hayes ] 20 Jun Re: Possible SBBG in Chicago area [ ] 20 Jun Possible SBBG in Chicago area [ ] 19 Jun Re: Spring overshoots. [Kevin McGowan ] 19 Jun Spring overshoots. [Michael Richardson ] 19 Jun Re: Spring Overshoots [Alan Wormington ] 19 Jun Re: Spring Overshoots [] 19 Jun Spring Overshoots [Keith Corliss ] 19 Jun Re: Spring Overshoots [] 19 Jun Re: Spring Overshoots [George Armistead ] 18 Jun Re: Spring Overshoots [Gary Rosenberg ] 18 Jun skilled birders needed ["Donald P. Freiday" ] 17 Jun Identification of AFRICAN/NORTH AMERICAN ROYAL TERN [Lee G R Evans ] 16 Jun Re: Spring Overshoots [Robert Wallace ] 16 Jun Re: Spring Overshoots [Alvaro Jaramillo ] 16 Jun Spring Overshoots [Will Russell ] 15 Jun Re: Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 - smaller photos ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 15 Jun Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 - smaller photos [Frank Haas ] 15 Jun asymmetrical Lesser Black-backed Gull [Peter Adriaens ] 15 Jun Re: Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 [Peter Adriaens ] 15 Jun Re: Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 [Colin Bradshaw ] 15 Jun Re: attn. listowner, subscribers - spamming, phishing using birdwg01 email address [Mike Patterson ] 15 Jun attn. listowner, subscribers - spamming, phishing using birdwg01 email address [Jim Barton ] 15 Jun Re: Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 15 Jun Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 [Frank Haas ] 14 Jun Jh Krueger looked for you on MyLife [Jh Krueger ] 14 Jun Birdbooker Report [Ian Paulsen ] 14 Jun Pacific Loon [Bill Hill ] 14 Jun Re: Arctic Loon perhaps [Ben Miller ] 14 Jun Re: Arctic Loon perhaps [Jason Rogers ] 14 Jun Re: Arctic Loon perhaps [Phil Davis ] 13 Jun Re: Arctic Loon perhaps [Julian Hough ] 13 Jun Re: Re; InterestingPlover RFI with link included [Harry Lehto ] 12 Jun Re; InterestingPlover RFI with link included [Matt Fraker ] 12 Jun Re: Interesting Plover RFI [Matt Fraker ] 11 Jun Re: An Interesting Plover [ ] 11 Jun Re: An Interesting Plover [Ben Miller ] 11 Jun Re: An Interesting Plover [ ] 10 Jun Re: An Interesting Plover ["Lethaby, Nick" ] 10 Jun An Interesting Plover [ ] 10 Jun Re: Another mystery gull [] 9 Jun Another mystery gull [Steve Sosensky ] 9 Jun Possible Least x Pied-billed Grebe Hybrid (USA) [Marcel Such ] 9 Jun Gray-collared Becard in Arizona [Kurt Radamaker ] 9 Jun Re: Dark-eyed Egret [Peter Pyle ] 9 Jun 4/12 Gull [Paul Conover ] 9 Jun Re: Dark-eyed Egret ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 9 Jun Re: Dark-eyed Egret [Matt Fraker ] 9 Jun Dark-eyed Egret ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 6 Jun Re: teal ID [Jim Pike ] 7 Jun Re: Little Egret with dark eyes ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 6 Jun teal ID [Mitch ] 5 Jun Re: Another Wood Pewee in the West... [Ted Floyd ] 5 Jun Re: Little Egret with dark eyes [Harry Hussey ] 5 Jun Fw: [MEBirdNet] Little Egret with dark eyes ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 4 Jun Little Egret with dark eyes ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 3 Jun Another Wood Pewee in the West... [Gavin Bieber ] 2 Jun Re: A Wood Pewee from Oregon (long and boring) ["Lethaby, Nick" ] 2 Jun Re: A Wood Pewee from Oregon (long and boring) [Leith McKenzie ] 2 Jun Re: A Wood Pewee from Oregon (long and boring) [Leith McKenzie ] 1 Jun Lilian's Meadowlark songs [Nathan Pieplow ] 1 Jun Re: Attwater Myiarchus Revisited [Kevin Karlson ] Subject: Re: Unidentified Catharus thrush From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:56:18 -0700 Thanks for the many responses we got on this thrush identification, primarily off-list. The consensus is that this was a Swainson's Thrush of one of the populations other than the "Russet-backed" (usutulatus) Group of the Pacific Coast. There were a few opinions for Gray-cheeked or Hermit Thrush but the washed out imagery seems to be responsible for this bird's resembling these species. There were more varied opinions regarding which population of Swainson's Thrush this bird may have originated from. The taxonomy of this species is interesting, with Great Basin populations aligned with Eastern ("Olive-backed") populations rather than forming their own group, as occurs with several other polytypic North American species. These populations, which breed as close to us as California east of the Sierra Nevada, have even been considered the same subspecies (swainsoni) that breeds in boreal northeastern forests (AOU 1957, Phillips 1991, etc.), and genetic studies performed by UCLA supports this opinion (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/269/1498/1375.full.pdf+html). Certain interior western populations have been considered a separate subspecies by some ("almae"), slightly grayer-backed as to be expected, but this differences seems to be slight at best. Another subspecies of the eastern Olive-backed Group, incanus (wrongly placed in the ustulatus group in the Identification Guide), breeds in Alaska and also averages grayer than typical swainsoni. Opinion on the Bolinas bird varied from swainsoni from the east to swainsoni from the west ("almae") to incanus, but given the images and the morphological similarity of these taxa, I don't think we can safely assume anything about this. A western origin for the bird might be expected based on range, but vagrants of other western-breeding Catharus (Veery, Gray-cheeked Thrush) are extremely rare in California, and could equally well have come from eastern populations. Indeed, this is only the 4th or 5th non-ustulatus Swainson's Thrush I know of from central coastal California; I only observed two on the Farallon Islands during a 24-year span there. Peter Pyle At 11:58 AM 6/25/2009, Peter Pyle wrote: >Hello again- > >Keith Hansen videotaped a Catharus thrush in Bolinas, central >coastal California, on 15 June 2009 that we'd like to get some >opinion on. There is general agreement that it is not of our locally >breeding Swainson's Thrush but there are some divergent opinions >beyond this. The video and some still grabs from it can be found here: > >http://keithhansen.wordpress.com/ > >Many thanks, > >Peter Pyle > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:02:01 +0200 Thank you Kevin for your very interesting reply and great photo's, I would love to see more! Rusty males as shown in 4th picture on our website are a minority in the flocks we see and I dare say males can also look pretty grey as can be seen in 6th picture showing a male (left) and a female. I wonder if the presence of short-billed birds among the birds you see can be explained by the presence of birds from Greenland and/or Ellesmere? The fact you see no difference in the plumage condition of my Sanderling photos and the many images you have of North American Sanderlings from the Atlantic Coast, even in deep rusty males may indicate that all are of Canadian stock. From what I have seen so far it looks as if birds from Greenland are a bit duller in colour. I'll consult Jeroen Reneerkens on this. In an earlier discussion he mentioned that Sanderlings from Greenland are in Scotland in the beginning of May and a little later in Iceland. Same as with Red Knots from Greenland which have left the North Sea by the end of April to fatten in Scotland and North Norway hence we never see them in fresh breeding plumage. Cheers, Norman Kevin Karlson wrote: >I read Norman's points with interest, but would like to address a few points. I have been studying Sanderlings on the Atlantic Coast near my house on Reeds Beach Road near the Delaware Bay for many years. I get to see many thousands of Sanderlings each year as they fatten up on Horseshoe Crab eggs prior to departing for their Arctic breeding areas. Many don't leave until early June, and attain full breeding plumage by then. The incredible variety in plumage color, shading and intensity is hard to believe, and I often wondered why only a percentage of these birds showed the 'classic' deep rust and black breeding plumage depicted in most popular North American field guides as "breeding plumage". I eventually realized that these guides were incorrect in only depicting a rusty plumage condition as breeding plumage, and should have showed a variety of rust, silver and black plumage states for breeding plumage. When we published the Shorebird Guide, we showed a photo of three adult Sanderlings in breeding plumage, with only one having deep rust plumage color, and the other two showing a mix of silver and black upperpart feathers with a smattering of rust internal markings. It is now obvious that some birds are deep rust in breeding plumage; others are somewhat rusty, with a mix of silver feathers; and others are mostly silver and black. These are adult birds that I am speaking of, with some first calendar year birds typically showing reduced rust color and variable amounts of retained juvenile wing coverts and flight feathers, or a mix of breeding, nonbreeding and juvenile feathers. My point is that there is really no way to say that these birds ever show a characteristic breeding plumage condition with respect to depth of rust and black versus silver and black color, and I doubt that there is a reliable way to separate them from other regional populations. The degree of variation in North American Sanderlings with respect to breeding plumage color is extraordinary, and overlooked by most birders. As for bill size being a determining factor for different geographical breeding populations, I would think that would be hard to conclusively apply as well. I see a great deal of variation with length and shape of Sanderling bills in NJ and Florida each year. Some are short and stubby, while others are noticeably longer and thinner, with a slight droop to the tip. Although many fit into a comfortable range of medium-length,straight, stout bills, others show a much longer, thinner bill, with a small number having very short bills with tapered tips that more resemble Semipalmated Sandpipers. I have not personally seen any studies where bill length and shape have been attributed to geographic populations, but I would be surprised if there were any distinct ranges without overlap by the other regional populations. I do acknowledge that several birds in Norman''s photos show very short bills, and the percentage of these short-billed birds in his photos is much greater than you would find in North American flocks. However, there are some very long billed birds in his photos as well. Since he sees more of the Eurasian nesting birds, I would guess that short billed birds are fairly common in this population group, and possibly representative, but there are a small number of birds in North America that also have very short bills. I have provided a link to a number of breeding Sanderling photos that I took in NJ and Florida in May: http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Shorebirds/Sandpipers/Turnstones/ Two photos (one perched; one flight) show birds with a mix of rusty and silver feathers, and also a mix of breeding and nonbreeding wing coverts. These might be first calendar year birds, or birds that did not have sufficient energy or hormonal levels to achieve full replacement of breeding feathers. I see this condition on many Short-billed Dowitchers that stage near my house in spring, with some replacing virtually all wing coverts with breeding feathers, and others a mixture of breeding feathers from 20 - 80 percent. I don't believe that age is the sole determinant for the amount of breeding feathers replaced, but a combination of factors is responsible for this condition. I also posted a few new photos showing variation of plumage in a small flock and large flock of Sanderlings photographed on May 27, 2005. The birds in the small flock all show a number of nonbreeding wing coverts, which might reflect young birds or ones that have low energy levels for feather replacement. However, both photos show typical variation in plumage of Sanderling flocks at various times during mid-May to early June. The larger flock with Red Knots shows a great deal of variation in plumage, from very rusty males to very pale birds. As for Al's comment on West Coast breeding Sanderlings showing white feathering within the rust coloration and whether Atlantic Coast birds also show this trait, I would say that some do while others have complete rust and black coloration with minimal white or gray feathering interspersed throughout the head, upperparts and throat. A few of the breeding birds on my website show birds from both Florida and NJ in May that do not show any noticeable white or gray feathering to these areas. In conclusion, I see no difference in the plumage condition of Norman's Sanderling photos and the many images I have of North American Sanderlings from the Atlantic Coast, even in deep rusty males. I also posted these photos in response to Norman's request for Sanderling images. I have about a thousand more images in raw format and slides, but need to go back to work. Kevin Karlson From: "Norman D.van Swelm" To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:56:20 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [BIRDWG01] Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? Have a look here please: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/snipes-waders/sanderlings%20in%20a%20storm.htm Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? From: Kevin Karlson <karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:52:51 +0000 Norman and all: RE: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? I read Norman's points with interest, but would like to address a few points. I have been studying Sanderlings on the Atlantic Coast near my house on Reeds Beach Road near the Delaware Bay for many years. I get to see many thousands of Sanderlings each year as they fatten up on Horseshoe Crab eggs prior to departing for their Arctic breeding areas. Many don't leave until early June, and attain full breeding plumage by then. The incredible variety in plumage color, shading and intensity is hard to believe, and I often wondered why only a percentage of these birds showed the 'classic' deep rust and black breeding plumage depicted in most popular North American field guides as "breeding plumage". I eventually realized that these guides were incorrect in only depicting a rusty plumage condition as breeding plumage, and should have showed a variety of rust, silver and black plumage states for breeding plumage. When we published the Shorebird Guide, we showed a photo of three adult Sanderlings in breeding plumage, with only one having deep rust plumage color, and the other two showing a mix of silver and black upperpart feathers with a smattering of rust internal markings. It is now obvious that some birds are deep rust in breeding plumage; others are somewhat rusty, with a mix of silver feathers; and others are mostly silver and black. These are adult birds that I am speaking of, with some first calendar year birds typically showing reduced rust color and variable amounts of retained juvenile wing coverts and flight feathers, or a mix of breeding, nonbreeding and juvenile feathers. My point is that there is really no way to say that these birds ever show a characteristic breeding plumage condition with respect to depth of rust and black versus silver and black color, and I doubt that there is a reliable way to separate them from other regional populations. The degree of variation in North American Sanderlings with respect to breeding plumage color is extraordinary, and overlooked by most birders. As for bill size being a determining factor for different geographical breeding populations, I would think that would be hard to conclusively apply as well. I see a great deal of variation with length and shape of Sanderling bills in NJ and Florida each year. Some are short and stubby, while others are noticeably longer and thinner, with a slight droop to the tip. Although many fit into a comfortable range of medium-length,straight, stout bills, others show a much longer, thinner bill, with a small number having very short bills with tapered tips that more resemble Semipalmated Sandpipers . I have not personally seen any studies where bill length and shape have been attributed to geographic populations, but I would be surprised if there were any distinct ranges without overlap by the other regional populations. I do acknowledge that several birds in Norman''s photos show very short bills, and the percentage of these short-billed birds in his photos is much greater than you would find in North American flocks. However, there are some very long billed birds in his photos as well. Since he sees more of the Eurasian nesting birds, I would guess that short billed birds are fairly common in this population group, and possibly representative, but there are a small number of birds in North America that also have very short bills. I have provided a link to a number of breeding Sanderling photos that I took in NJ and Florida in May: http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Shorebirds/Sandpipers/Turnstones/   Two photos (one perched; one flight) show birds with a mix of rusty and silver feathers, and also a mix of breeding and nonbreeding wing coverts. These might be first calendar year birds, or birds that did not have sufficient energy or hormonal levels to achive full replacement of breeding feathers. I see this condition on many Short-billed Dowitchers that stage near my house in spring, with some replacing virtually all wing coverts with breeding feathers, and others a mixture of breeding feathers from 20 - 80 percent. I don't believe that age is the sole determinant for the amount of breeding feathers replaced, but a combination of factors is responsible for this condition. I also posted a few new photos showing variation of plumage in a small flock and large flock of Sanderlings photographed on May 27, 2005 . The birds in the small flock all show a number of nonbreeding wing coverts, which might reflect young birds or ones that have low energy levels for feather replacement. However, both photos show typical variation in plumage of Sanderling flocks at various times during mid-May to early June. The larger flock with Red Knots shows a great deal of variation in plumge, from very rusty males to very pale birds. As for Al's comment on West Coast breeding Sanderlings showing white feathering within the rust coloration and whether Atlantic Coast birds also show this trait, I would say that some do while others  have complete rust and black coloration with minimal white or gray feathering interspersed throughout the head, upperparts and throat. A few of the breeding birds on my website show birds from both Florida and NJ in May that do not show any noticeable white or gray feathering to these areas. In conclusion, I see no difference in the plumage condition of Norman's Sanderling photos and the many images I have of North American Sanderlings from the Atlantic Coast, even in deep rusty males. I also posted these photos in response to Norman's request for Sanderling images. I have about a thousand more images in raw format and slides, but need to go back to work. Kevin Karlson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norman D.van Swelm" To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:56:20 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [BIRDWG01] Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? Have a look here please:   http://www.radioactiverobins.com/snipes-waders/sanderlings%20in%20a%20storm.htm and share your opinion with all of us. Cheers, Norman Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 00:27:50 +0200 Hi Peter and all, I am aware of the fact that Rubidus has not been recognized by many. However, quite recently, in their unpleasantly scarce excellent book, Engelmoer, Meinte & Cees S.Roselaar, 1998, Geographical Variation in Waders, have proven that Rubides exists! As for your remarks on the different timing of moult we too noticed this f.i. in Turnstones, the ones arriving around 1st May from Africa were in already bleached breeding plumage, quite distinct from the ones that wintered in our delta and were still in active moult at that date! Cheers, Norman Peter Pyle wrote: >Rubidus is not recognized as a valid subspecies by many, due to mensural differences being too slight and rather substantial individual variation in alternate plumage aspect. Wader species that winter in both Northern and Southern Hemispheres show a lot of variation in extent and timing of molt and I've come to wonder if this variation rather than genetic differentiation can explain average geographic differences in alternate plumages that we see in some species (including Sanderling, Red Knot, and Ruddy Turnstone). There always seem to be a few birds looking like other subspecies in breeding populations of these. Could these be birds that simply wintered at a different latitude than most of the population and underwent a different hormonal-molt-pigment-deposition regime than the others? A great topic for further research. At 09:26 AM 6/25/2009, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote: Norman My guess is that outside of the bright males, one has no hope of separating the greyish females and first spring birds. But with males, I can see differences between photos from Europe and the birds I see here in California. Restricting to birds that have lots of rufous on the face in May (so the brightest birds) our birds are grizzled with grey tips from the nape all the way through the upperparts. While they are clearly rufous birds, they look peppered with "snow" a look that I do not see on the much more solidly rufous Euro birds. It would be interesting to find out if that general look is also what they see on the North American Atlantic Coast. Cheers, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com Subject: [BIRDWG01] Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? Have a look here please: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/snipes-waders/sanderlings%20in%20a%20storm . htm Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:45:36 +0200 Hi Alvaro, I wonder if any of my birds in my pictures looks like the ones you see? Do you have or know of pictures of the birds you see in spring? Cheers, Norman Alvaro Jaramillo wrote: > My guess is that outside of the bright males, one has no hope of > separating the greyish females and first spring birds. But with males, I > can > see differences between photos from Europe and the birds I see here in > California. Restricting to birds that have lots of rufous on the face in > May > (so the brightest birds) our birds are grizzled with grey tips from the > nape > all the way through the upperparts. While they are clearly rufous birds, > they look peppered with "snow" a look that I do not see on the much more > solidly rufous Euro birds. It would be interesting to find out if that > general look is also what they see on the North American Atlantic Coast. > Alvaro Jaramillo > chucao AT coastside.net > Half Moon Bay, California > [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Norman D.van Swelm > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:56 AM > Have a look here please: > http://www.radioactiverobins.com/snipes-waders/sanderlings%20in%20a%20storm.htm Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Unidentified Catharus thrush From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:58:38 -0700 Hello again- Keith Hansen videotaped a Catharus thrush in Bolinas, central coastal California, on 15 June 2009 that we'd like to get some opinion on. There is general agreement that it is not of our locally breeding Swainson's Thrush but there are some divergent opinions beyond this. The video and some still grabs from it can be found here: http://keithhansen.wordpress.com/ Many thanks, Peter Pyle Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:27:56 -0700 Hello all- Rubidus is not recognized as a valid subspecies by many, due to mensural differences being too slight and rather substantial individual variation in alternate plumage aspect. Wader species that winter in both Northern and Southern Hemispheres show a lot of variation in extent and timing of molt and I've come to wonder if this variation rather than genetic differentiation can explain average geographic differences in alternate plumages that we see in some species (including Sanderling, Red Knot, and Ruddy Turnstone). There always seem to be a few birds looking like other subspecies in breeding populations of these. Could these be birds that simply wintered at a different latitude than most of the population and underwent a different hormonal-molt-pigment-deposition regime than the others? A great topic for further research. Peter At 09:26 AM 6/25/2009, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote: >Norman > > My guess is that outside of the bright males, one has no hope of >separating the greyish females and first spring birds. But with males, I can >see differences between photos from Europe and the birds I see here in >California. Restricting to birds that have lots of rufous on the face in May >(so the brightest birds) our birds are grizzled with grey tips from the nape >all the way through the upperparts. While they are clearly rufous birds, >they look peppered with "snow" a look that I do not see on the much more >solidly rufous Euro birds. It would be interesting to find out if that >general look is also what they see on the North American Atlantic Coast. > >Cheers, > >Alvaro > >Alvaro Jaramillo >chucao AT coastside.net >Half Moon Bay, California > >Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide >www.fieldguides.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification >[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Norman D.van Swelm >Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:56 AM >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Subject: [BIRDWG01] Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to >and from Europe as well? > >Have a look here please: > > >http://www.radioactiverobins.com/snipes-waders/sanderlings%20in%20a%20storm. >htm > > >and share your opinion with all of us. >Cheers, Norman > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Asymmetrical gull From: Michael F <whitethro AT GOOGLEMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:44:42 +0100 Just to throw something else into the mix, in February I found an asymmetrical leucistic Herring Gull on the Thames. http://countingcoots.blogspot.com/2009/02/another-funny-looking-gull.html I cannot, however, vouch for the eye colour... Cheers, Michael -- http://countingcoots.blogspot.com/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 09:26:04 -0700 Norman My guess is that outside of the bright males, one has no hope of separating the greyish females and first spring birds. But with males, I can see differences between photos from Europe and the birds I see here in California. Restricting to birds that have lots of rufous on the face in May (so the brightest birds) our birds are grizzled with grey tips from the nape all the way through the upperparts. While they are clearly rufous birds, they look peppered with "snow" a look that I do not see on the much more solidly rufous Euro birds. It would be interesting to find out if that general look is also what they see on the North American Atlantic Coast. Cheers, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Norman D.van Swelm Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:56 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? Have a look here please: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/snipes-waders/sanderlings%20in%20a%20storm. htm and share your opinion with all of us. Cheers, Norman Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Do Canadian Sanderlings Calidris a. rubidus migrate to and from Europe as well? From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:56:20 +0200 Have a look here please: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/snipes-waders/sanderlings%20in%20a%20storm.htm and share your opinion with all of us. Cheers, Norman Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: FRANKLIN'S GULL From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:14:10 -0400 Additionally, Laughing never has such large white primary tips as the one that the pictured birds shows. Tony Leukering Villas, NJ Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2009, at 4:49 AM, Lee G R Evans wrote: > Totally agree with Julian that this individual best fits first- > summer FRANKLIN'S GULL. In most images, the bill is seen to be short > and rather stubby unlike the long drooping bill of Laughing and the > underparts are all gleaming white (first-year Laughing Gulls tend to > have quite dark grey breast bands or fore-flanks). I cannot explain > the long leg length though; Franklin's Gull has relatively short > tibia. Certainly an intriguing bird > > Best wishes > > > Lee G R Evans > British Birding Association > UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and > Conservationist > Discussion Forum/Email Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/ > Rare Bird Alert: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/ > Email Address: LGREUK400 AT aol.com > Website Address: www.uk400clubonline.co.uk > Blog Sites: http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/ http://birdingamersham.blogspot.com/ > http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.com/ > http://calvertbirding.blogspot.com/ > > Chaffinch House > 8 Sandycroft Road > Little Chalfont > Amersham > Buckinghamshire > England > HP6 6QL > > Telephones: 01494 763010 and 01494 581157 > Mobile/Text Alerts: 07881 906629 > > (Lee Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird > occurrences in Britain & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western > Palearctic and in North America; Rare Bird Information and Rare Bird > Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and other related publications; Bird > Tours for Birders) > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: FRANKLIN'S GULL From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 04:49:21 EDT Totally agree with Julian that this individual best fits first-summer FRANKLIN'S GULL. In most images, the bill is seen to be short and rather stubby unlike the long drooping bill of Laughing and the underparts are all gleaming white (first-year Laughing Gulls tend to have quite dark grey breast bands or fore-flanks). I cannot explain the long leg length though; Franklin's Gull has relatively short tibia. Certainly an intriguing bird Best wishes Lee G R Evans British Birding Association UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and Conservationist Discussion Forum/Email Group: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/) Rare Bird Alert: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/) Email Address: LGREUK400 AT aol.com Website Address: _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ (http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) Blog Sites: _http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/_ (http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/) _ http://birdingamersham.blogspot.com/_ (http://birdingamersham.blogspot.com/) _ http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.com/_ (http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.com/) _http://calvertbirding.blogspot.com/_ (http://calvertbirding.blogspot.com/) Chaffinch House 8 Sandycroft Road Little Chalfont Amersham Buckinghamshire England HP6 6QL Telephones: 01494 763010 and 01494 581157 Mobile/Text Alerts: 07881 906629 (Lee Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird occurrences in Britain & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western Palearctic and in North America; Rare Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and other related publications; Bird Tours for Birders) Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Franklin's or Laughing Gull? From: Julian Hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:41:34 -0400 Dan, I agree with your consensus that it's a Franklin's Gull..finishing it's complete 'spring' moult out of first-basic/first-winter plumage. Aside from the head pattern, other good pro-Franklin's features are the pale grey inner primaries (not shown by Laughing Gull at this age) and the basically all white-tail, lacking a black tailband, which is unique among gulls at this age. Best, Julian Hough, CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Jones" To: Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 8:39 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Franklin's or Laughing Gull? I found this gull on 6/20/09 at a pond near Hargill, Hidalgo county, Texas. It has generated quite a bit of discussion on TEXBIRDS with a small majority leaning towards Franklin's Gull. Comments? http://i40.tinypic.com/13z3k37.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/v7y1w5.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/14b5oyc.jpg http://i39.tinypic.com/2419ijq.jpg http://i40.tinypic.com/cp2pz.jpg http://i39.tinypic.com/rvbwqq.jpg Dan Jones in Weslaco, TX Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Franklin's or Laughing Gull? From: Daniel Jones <antshrike1 AT AOL.COM> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:39:21 -0700 I found this gull on 6/20/09 at a pond near Hargill, Hidalgo county, Texas. It has generated quite a bit of discussion on TEXBIRDS with a small majority leaning towards Franklin's Gull. Comments? http://i40.tinypic.com/13z3k37.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/v7y1w5.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/14b5oyc.jpg http://i39.tinypic.com/2419ijq.jpg http://i40.tinypic.com/cp2pz.jpg http://i39.tinypic.com/rvbwqq.jpg Dan Jones in Weslaco, TX Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: asymmetrical Lesser Black-backed Gull From: Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 11:37:25 -0700 It's called heterochromia but there appears to be very little published on the subject for birds. Most reports refer to heterochromia iridis, which refers to different colored eyes. It's rather widespread in mammals. I've encountered only a few published reports in birds. Here's an example of a Ring-billed Gull photographed earlier this year with heterochromia in both the eyes and legs: http://www.flickr.com/photos/floyd_hayes Did your Lesser Black-backed Gull have different colored eyes as well? Floyd Hayes Hidden Valley Lake, CA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Possible SBBG in Chicago area From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Greg_Neise?= <gregneise AT ILBIRDS.COM> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:12:50 -0700 That would of course be SBGU (for Slaty-backed Gull). I am such a spaz sometimes. -greg Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Possible SBBG in Chicago area From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Greg_Neise?= <gregneise AT ILBIRDS.COM> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 13:21:45 -0700 Hi all, Tom Lally photographed a bird at North Point Marina (at the WI/IL border) that looks very similar to fig. 30.12 on page 215 of Howell & Dunn. I would very much appreciate it if people on this list having experience in SBBG...especially in this plumage...would give an opinion on this bird: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=23099.0 Cheers, -greg neise Berwyn, IL Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Spring overshoots. From: Kevin McGowan <kjm2 AT CORNELL.EDU> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:01:10 -0400 At 04:52 PM 6/19/2009, Michael Richardson wrote: >... > >In Ontario there are a number of species extending their range. Even if >climate change is implicated there must be some prospecting going on as >individuals find new nesting grounds. ... I co-authored a paper on this topic 17 years ago(!!) about Fish Crows (http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/kjmpubs.html). I probably haven't read the paper for about 10 years, but I looked it over tonight. It does discuss some interesting points about the possible methods of range expansion, including the possible role of things like spring overshoots. I am particularly happy about the last sentence predicting the utility of breeding bird atlases in documenting range expansions. Both of the recently published atlases in Ontario and New York show abundant evidence of creeping range expansion, as well as a few examples of leapfrog expansion. Kevin Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Spring overshoots. From: Michael Richardson <mrtree AT KOS.NET> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:52:24 -0400 I wonder if one idea of spring overshoots is birds attempting to extended their range north. Perhaps this has been mentioned, hope I am not repeating. In Ontario there are a number of species extending their range. Even if climate change is implicated there must be some prospecting going on as individuals find new nesting grounds. Second year males make sense as they are naturally looking for a territory of their own and may be at some advantage if they explore a little further afield (but not too much). On the north shore of lake Ontario we see Cardinals which moved in during the early to mid 1900s, mockingbirds and Red-bellied WOodpeckers coming around either end of the lake and Hooded Warblers which have moved onto the Rice Lake Sandplains relatively recently. These have all moved in relatively small steps but often appear as overshoots. Prothontary Warblers occur in the Rochester area but are not known from 60 or 70 miles north on the north shore of Lake Ontario. Occasionally a bird will be seen in Spring likely as an overshoot. I am not sure Prothontary will start breeding here (though I hope) but there may be prospecting. Michael Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Spring Overshoots From: Alan Wormington <wormington AT JUNO.COM> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:57:28 -0400 Adding to this theme, spring overshoots are not necessarily defined as birds that are well north of the species "normal" range. Even within the species' range an individual bird can be a spring overshoot. For example a Hooded Warbler in Ohio might in fact be a spring overshoot from Kentucky or Tennessee, even though Ohio is well within the species "normal" range. Such a bird could easily return to Kentucky or Tennessee but this type of movement would go unnoticed by the birding community (but undoubtedly documented occasionally by banding activities). Alan Wormington Leamington, Ontario On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:20:29 -0400 greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM writes: > Hi all: > > I think that we are, perhaps, confounding two or three (at least) > different phenomena when talking about spring overshoots, one of > which may be restricted in North America to the east coast (due to > geography).  One of these is the regular occurrence of > individuals in spring to the north of the regular breeding range > of the species.  I would suspect that if the distance beyond > regular breeding range is not too large (whatever 'too large' may > mean), individuals may be able to reorient and find their normal > place in the world.  Much of my recent experience of spring > migration has been in eastern Colorado, which is actually a > difficult place to assess the occurrence parameters of certain > species/individuals.  This is because the area lies to the west > and north of some parts of the regular breeding range of some > eastern species, but not north of some other parts.  The various > "eastern" species that breed in the Hill Country in central Texas -- > such as Yellow-throated Vireo -- are a good example.  Is a > Yellow-throated Vireo that arrives in eastern Colorado an overshoot > to the north or is it displaced too far west?  Did a strong > southerly blow push the bird too far north or did it drift too far > east on a light southeasterly?  Or, is its compass whopper-jawed?  > Looking at recent weather patterns may offer some clues, but with > birds' ability to buck wind direction, we can probably never know > the true cause of any single bird's arrival. > > Another phen > omenon that we're considering is of individuals well outside normal > breeding range to the north, such as Cape May Warbler at Barrow.  > These occurrences seem to occur at normal migration times or, even, > fairly late, as if the birds had taken a long time to get there.  I > would suggest that such records are not due, at least directly, to > weather, but to innate orientation troubles, though I, too, have > pondered George's question about where such birds were in the > intervening winter. > > Finally (at least for this essay), the East Coast experiences > obviously weather-caused displacements of birds in spring, such as > the one that occurred this spring in New England and, particularly, > the Canadian Maritimes.  These often occur well before normal > spring migration timing at such latitudes and often include species > that wind up far beyond their normal breeding range.  These birds > are, apparently, entrained in weather systems offshore and, like > similar occurrences in fall, probably orient downwind (to the north) > in order to conserve energy in an attempt to run into land. > > So, I would suggest that we be a bit more careful about willy-nilly > lumping so many different phenomena into one category, as these > questions will be hard enough to answer without the confusion > entailed by such lumping. > > Sincerely, > > Tony Leukering > Villas, NJ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Will Russell > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > Sent: Tue, Jun 16, 2009 11:56 am > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Spring Overshoots > > > > "Spring Overshoots,"=2 > 0are a well-known migration phenomenon, perhaps > specially in eastern North America, resulting in species appearing > north of > in some cases far north of – their normal range. These birds > tend to > ppear more or less at the same time that their species is arriving > in its > ormal range, and they tend to be largely (overwhelmingly?) second > year > ales. It isn’t clear if these birds just don’t know when to > stop or if > hey travel north for the right period of time but for some reason go > aster. > I’m curious if “spring overshoots” as defined above are > noticed in western > orth America. I’m curious too if spring overshoots in western > Europe are > redominately second year males (in those cases where sex can be > etermined). > If anyone is kind enough to respond, please do so directly to me > unless you > eel your comments are of general interest. > Thanks. > Will Russell > illrussell AT comcast.net > > > oin or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > "The Early Worm Gets The Bird!" --- Alan Wormington Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Spring Overshoots From: sgmlod AT AOL.COM Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:27:20 -0400 Greetings All Firstly, I think we need to define spring overshoot. There really are two different types. The first type is the kind that shows up a relatively short distance n. of their usual range. The second type shows up hundreds of miles n of the species' usual range. If second year means birds that are ~1 year old, then by-passing breeding range (especially if territories saturated) in search of new breeding grounds makes sense. I guess this could be true for birds ~2 years old, too. If these European overshoots really are birds nearing their 2nd birthday, I'd really love to see the data; I wonder about statistical significance and variation from species to species. My next question is: are these European spring overshoots short-range or long-range? It has been theorized that long-range spring overshoots are secondary to either extraordinary weather events or screwed-up genetics. in the latter case, it has been suggested (by Vinicombe and Cottridge, I believe) that those birds have lost the "stop" mechanism in their nbound spring migration (usually birds approx 1 year old, because if this is genetic, they don't see year 2). In WA we see precious few spring overshoots, but then again, there are very few medium to long-distance passerine migrants that stop south of here (unless one gets all the way down to Arizona/se California; and many of these species probably wind up e of WA/OR if they continued north). Costa's Humm and Allen's Humm (okay not passerines) are two species one might expect to=2 0overshoot into WA.. BG Gnat, Cassin's Kingbird, Hooded Oriole are a few more. Maybe Virginia's Warbler, Plumbeous Vireo, Cordilleran Fly, GH Junco could be added on to this list, but really, most of their range is east of WA, not just south. Cordilleran Fly does get into the se corner of WA (and GHJU and Virginia's Warbler into se. corner of OR, at least irregularly) as a breeder, but a vagrant Cord Fly would likely pass unnoticed. Anyway, Great Basin birds tend to be longer-distance migrants than Pac NW birds, and those overshoots would  more likely occur in Montana, Idaho, etc ... not in my neck of the woods. BT Sparrow does regularly "overshoot" into the Pac NW, breeding irregularly, but this has been well tied to drought. I have no idea of age of these birds. For BG Gnat, except for short-range overshoots, spring vagrants are incredibly rare in OR/WA. Hooded Orioles are more regular, but WA still has <10 (sorry, don't know age breakdown off-hand. At least a couple appeared to be adult males, but ???). Costa's show up annually, and nearly all WA records are spring, but for OR, the records are really pretty scattered year-round. Cassin's Kings don't seem to fly n. of their range into OR/WA and Allen's are very, very scarce n. of their range, but some of that may be due to ID issues. Interestingly, Hermit Warblers (which breed well n. into the WA Cascades) are virtually unknown even short distances n. of their breeding range, but some of this may be due to poor coverage of=2 0montane habitats in spring. AT Fly is a species that barely gets into WA, and spring records n of its range are quite scarce as well. So, I guess for the Pac NW, I'd say we have very few spring overshoots, but there are few species to overshoot (sorry, I know, I am repeating myself). Alvaro's reasoning makes much sense, but for WA/OR, there are probaby insufficient "candidate" species to use for comparison. The interior western states may make for a better comparison with the east, as Great Basin birds (and even Arizona species like RF Warbler) are more likely to be migratory, but there one faces a relative low-density of observers (and how many overshoots in e. North America are found along Great Lakes and Atlantic Coast... the west has little to compare with these for concentrating effect. Maybe the Front Range). Alaska (or central/northern BC) would be a better place to assess spring overshoots, as many far western species stop shy of there (eg., Bullock's Oriole, Sage Sparrow). Now, the occurrence of waterbirds in the Pac NW is more complex and interesting, and then in w WA/OR we have a fascinating pattern of birds from the e. side of the Cascades wandering regularly onto the w. side, usually far more so in spring than fall. Whether this represents an overshoot phenomenon or something else deserves some pondering. Cheers Steve Mlodinow -----Original Message----- From: Will Russell To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tue, Jun 16, 2009 8:56 am Subject: [BIRDWG01]20Spring Overshoots "Spring Overshoots," are a well-known migration phenomenon, perhaps specially in eastern North America, resulting in species appearing north of in some cases far north of – their normal range. These birds tend to ppear more or less at the same time that their species is arriving in its ormal range, and they tend to be largely (overwhelmingly?) second year ales. It isn’t clear if these birds just don’t know when to stop or if hey travel north for the right period of time but for some reason go aster. I’m curious if “spring overshoots” as defined above are noticed in western orth America. I’m curious too if spring overshoots in western Europe are redominately second year males (in those cases where sex can be etermined). If anyone is kind enough to respond, please do so directly to me unless you eel your comments are of general interest. Thanks. Will Russell illrussell AT comcast.net oin or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Spring Overshoots From: Keith Corliss <koolhand AT JUNO.COM> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:23:47 GMT An interesting discussion to be sure. We may all scratch our collective heads and wonder as to the reason some birds "overshoot." But in the end we may never know the truth. And perhaps that's a good thing--it's nice to know there are still mysteries out there to decipher. But the very label "overshoot" smells of anthropomorphism. These organisms, as is obvious, don't read books or interpret range maps. It's probable this has been going on since feathers evolved and for a variety of reasons--weather, hormones, etc. I'd rather chalk it up to chance-takers, those with pioneering genes venturing beyond the "normal" (I hate that word) range to scout out new opportunities and defy the odds in hopes of establishing a new and agreeable nest site. How else do birds expand their range were it not for the bold among them? Keith Corliss, West Fargo, ND Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Spring Overshoots From: greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:20:29 -0400 Hi all: I think that we are, perhaps, confounding two or three (at least) different phenomena when talking about spring overshoots, one of which may be restricted in North America to the east coast (due to geography).  One of these is the regular occurrence of individuals in spring to the north of the regular breeding range of the species.  I would suspect that if the distance beyond regular breeding range is not too large (whatever 'too large' may mean), individuals may be able to reorient and find their normal place in the world.  Much of my recent experience of spring migration has been in eastern Colorado, which is actually a difficult place to assess the occurrence parameters of certain species/individuals.  This is because the area lies to the west and north of some parts of the regular breeding range of some eastern species, but not north of some other parts.  The various "eastern" species that breed in the Hill Country in central Texas -- such as Yellow-throated Vireo -- are a good example.  Is a Yellow-throated Vireo that arrives in eastern Colorado an overshoot to the north or is it displaced too far west?  Did a strong southerly blow push the bird too far north or did it drift too far east on a light southeasterly?  Or, is its compass whopper-jawed?  Looking at recent weather patterns may offer some clues, but with birds' ability to buck wind direction, we can probably never know the true cause of any single bird's arrival. Another phen omenon that we're considering is of individuals well outside normal breeding range to the north, such as Cape May Warbler at Barrow.  These occurrences seem to occur at normal migration times or, even, fairly late, as if the birds had taken a long time to get there.  I would suggest that such records are not due, at least directly, to weather, but to innate orientation troubles, though I, too, have pondered George's question about where such birds were in the intervening winter. Finally (at least for this essay), the East Coast experiences obviously weather-caused displacements of birds in spring, such as the one that occurred this spring in New England and, particularly, the Canadian Maritimes.  These often occur well before normal spring migration timing at such latitudes and often include species that wind up far beyond their normal breeding range.  These birds are, apparently, entrained in weather systems offshore and, like similar occurrences in fall, probably orient downwind (to the north) in order to conserve energy in an attempt to run into land. So, I would suggest that we be a bit more careful about willy-nilly lumping so many different phenomena into one category, as these questions will be hard enough to answer without the confusion entailed by such lumping. Sincerely, Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Will Russell To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tue, Jun 16, 2009 11:56 am Subject: [BIRDWG01] Spring Overshoots "Spring Overshoots,"=2 0are a well-known migration phenomenon, perhaps specially in eastern North America, resulting in species appearing north of in some cases far north of – their normal range. These birds tend to ppear more or less at the same time that their species is arriving in its ormal range, and they tend to be largely (overwhelmingly?) second year ales. It isn’t clear if these birds just don’t know when to stop or if hey travel north for the right period of time but for some reason go aster. I’m curious if “spring overshoots” as defined above are noticed in western orth America. I’m curious too if spring overshoots in western Europe are redominately second year males (in those cases where sex can be etermined). If anyone is kind enough to respond, please do so directly to me unless you eel your comments are of general interest. Thanks. Will Russell illrussell AT comcast.net oin or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Spring Overshoots From: George Armistead <armistead.george AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 02:05:28 -0400 Can't add much re: western Spring overshooting I'm afraid, but in response to Bob's comments on eastern spring overshoots, surely weather is but one factor. In some cases it may be the sole factor, but in others it's prob only a contributing factor at best. For eastern birds reaching strange corners of Alaska other things are surely afoot. I'm not clear exactly on what spurs a bird's instinct to migrate (hormone levels?), but I'd think as Will indicates, odd birds end up with such strong instincts to migrate that they never actually stop to attempt breeding; regardless of the weather they encounter. Re: Austral vagrants to the ABA region, I'd think that only rarely is weather a causal factor. Mostly those have to be birds with hormonal imbalances, other maladies causing abnormal migrations, birds expanding their ranges, or just flukes (whatever those are). I find it interesting that as Will says, many of these overshoots are 2nd yr males. I guess the natural question is, where did they wander during that first year, and how did they survive it? I've been meaning to look at Austral vagrants in this same vein but the records are so few relatively that the age/sex info is surely all the more sparse. Off to Barrow tomorrow. The idea of seeing something like a Scarlet Tanager there just blows my mind. Best, -George -- George L. Armistead Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia Philadelphia, PA armistead.george AT gmail.com Field Guides Inc. Birding Tours Worldwide http://www.fieldguides.com/tours.html?area=guides&guide=ARMISTEAD_G Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Spring Overshoots From: Gary Rosenberg <ghrosenberg AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:57:32 -0700 Hi all, I would think that the phenomenon of "Spring Overshoots" can be attributed to many rarities found in se. Alaska, as well as throughout mainland Alaska up as far north as Barrow. Drainages that flow to the west in se. Alaska, such as at Hyder, or along the Stikine River (a bit farther north) get species such as Cassin's Vireos, and Dusky Flycatcher (just to name two) in early June, probably about the time they are arriving in the interior of BC. Species such as Yellow- bellied Flycatchers that are found in the interior of central Alaska (west of TOK and near Fairbanks) are birds that have continued migrating north and west well beyond their normal stopping points in the Yukon and BC - in fact I witnessed a Yellow-bellied Flycatcher using the Alaskan Highway as a migratory corridor, with the bird moving west in continuous flights in early June. The many late spring records of a whole array of rarities at Barrow, I would think, is also an example of this phenomenon - and not all these records are of "eastern" species that have continued north and west, but also include more "western" migrants such as Swainson's Hawk and Varied Thrush. I would guess that this is much more widespread in Alaska, as so few individuals actually have the chance of being located, yet lots are. A place like Barrow is an obvious concentrating point. Cheers, Gary Gary H. Rosenberg Tucson, AZ ghrosenberg AT comcast.net http://www.wingsbirds.com http://azfo.org/ArizonaBirdCommittee/index.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: skilled birders needed From: "Donald P. Freiday" <don.freiday AT NJAUDUBON.ORG> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:15:14 -0400 Because a high degree of birding skill is required for the following positions, I requested and was granted permission from the list owner to post the following to this list: New Jersey Audubon Society's Cape May Bird Observatory is hiring counters for fall 2009 for the Cape May Morning Flight count (migrant passerines, identified and counted in flight), Avalon Sea Watch, and Cape May Hawk Watch. Morning Flight averages 280,000 birds per season, Sea Watch about 700,000, and the Hawk Watch about 50,000. Housing and a stipend are provided. More information & how to apply can be found at http://www.njaudubon.org/AboutNJAS/Employ.html -------------------------------------------------- Donald P. Freiday Director of Birding Programs New Jersey Audubon Society's Cape May Bird Observatory 600 Route 47 North Cape May Court House, NJ 08210 (609) 861-0700 voice (609) 861-1651 fax don.freiday AT njaudubon.org www.birdcapemay.org www.njaudubon.org Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Identification of AFRICAN/NORTH AMERICAN ROYAL TERN From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:08:54 EDT Once again, I am soliciting information from those of you who may be amply qualified to comment If you browse my UK400 Club Rare Bird Alert for recent days, you will come across a superb selection of flight images of a 'Royal Tern' photographed by Michael O'Keefe in County Cork, IRELAND, on 9 June. This bird was subsequently relocated in North Wales on 15 June. See _http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com_ (http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/) After studying Mike's images, I formed an opinion that the bird was a ROYAL TERN of the form albididorsalis, which I recognise as 'AFRICAN ROYAL TERN' and have studied on occasions in Dahkla Bay, Western Sahara (including as recently as May this year). The bird (on 9 June) was in full breeding plumage and as such has the black crown to the bill base and a summer-coloured bill - in this case yellow with a cast of orange. Furthermore, from Mike's stunning images, one can clearly detect just four black outer primary shafts. These features, in my opinion, point towards the bird being of West African rather than North American origin. In my experience, the majority of 'AMERICAN ROYAL TERNS' (nominate form maxima) have a rich ORANGE coloured bill, often with almost a hint of a reddish cast, and rarely appear 'yellow' in the field (please email me if your experience with maxima contradicts this). Furthermore, adult maxima acquire a summer hood from late February/early March and begin moulting the black on the crown within a very short period indeed and often by early June, a greater percentage of birds have a white forehead (I accept however that it is more likely a non-breeder will retain these feathers). The differencies in bill shape are marginal and very subtle but African Royal averages slimmer, with a less well-marked gonydeal angle, but overall has greater thickness over its congeners, namely the similar Lesser Crested and Elegant Terns. The upperparts are generally paler and the tail fork generally shallower but these features are not easily transcribed from the images. Additionally, the Cork bird has four dark primary shafts apparent. Should American Royal not show 6-9 dark outers at this time of year? I would be most grateful for any input on what is now becoming a contentious identification. Lee G R Evans British Birding Association UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and Conservationist Discussion Forum/Email Group: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/) Rare Bird Alert: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdA lertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/) Email Address: LGREUK400 AT aol.com Website Address: _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ (http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) Blog Sites: _http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/_ (http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/) _ http://birdingamersham.blogspot.com/_ (http://birdingamersham.blogspot.com/) _ http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.com/_ (http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.com/) _http://calvertbirding.blogspot.com/_ (http://calvertbirding.blogspot.com/) Chaffinch House 8 Sandycroft Road Little Chalfont Amersham Buckinghamshire England HP6 6QL Telephones: 01494 763010 and 01494 581157 Mobile/Text Alerts: 07881 906629 (Lee Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird occurrences in Britain & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western Palearctic and in North America; Rare Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and other related publications; Bird Tours for Birders) Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Spring Overshoots From: Robert Wallace <chnuts AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:04:11 -0700 Hi Al, Will - it seems reasonable that weather systems in the east are largely responsible for overshoots, because of the shape of the cold fronts that create strong SW to NE flowing winds along the frontal barrier - most fronts move from the center of the continent towards the SE in this manner and it is quite rational that birds aloft could be moved great distances to the north by these sometimes very strong SW winds. This is a fairly common event in spring, and has been probably been a factor in the evolution of migratory patterns. If stronger fronts come earlier in the year, perhaps this may also explain the appearance of younger males, coming earlier to locate territories. More confounding are austral overshoots, which have to cross the equator, such as Fork-tailed Flycatcher, and possibly others such as the Southern Lapwings that have appeared in late spring several times recently in the east. Is this also weather related, or a different causal factor? Is there a genetic predisposition for younger birds to wander, or some other explanation other than wind? Are there similar patterns in southern African migrants that end up in Europe on a regular basis? Bob Wallace Alachua FL ________________________________ From: Alvaro Jaramillo To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:16:05 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Spring Overshoots Will I will direct this to the group in general to get more conversation on it. In North America it seems to me that the western migration system and the eastern migration system are entirely different, not only in their geography and topography, but in their timing and character as well. One of the main differences in the west is that the landscape does not become available to birds in as large a scale as in the east, it becomes available in a patchy manner. So valleys open up earlier than mountain tops, and great corridors for migration such as the Sierra in California are only usable in the fall for example. In the West we have a huge latitudinal breeding range for many birds, Wilson's Warbler is a good example, and with that bird the migration through my region can start in March and be ongoing into May, while in the east Wilson's Warbler go through a much shorter time in a distinct pulse. We just don't have those pulses in the far west. In the west Wilson's leapfrog over each other, with northern wintering birds settling in first to southern breeding areas, and the northern breeders being the last to come in from the southernmost wintering areas (this is known from stable isotope work). I think that birds in the west use very short hops, not long flights like eastern birds. The overall slower and more methodical picking of their way through the available corridors in a sea of snow covered mountains in spring makes for behavior such as overshooting to be rare. I don't think that western birds catch a real good wind or system in the way that eastern birds and ride it to wherever it takes them and then re-position after the fact; that could land you in a real bad place in the West. Cheers, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Will Russell Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:57 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Spring Overshoots "Spring Overshoots," are a well-known migration phenomenon, perhaps especially in eastern North America, resulting in species appearing north of – in some cases far north of – their normal range. These birds tend to appear more or less at the same time that their species is arriving in its normal range, and they tend to be largely (overwhelmingly?) second year males. It isn’t clear if these birds just don’t know when to stop or if they travel north for the right period of time but for some reason go faster. I’m curious if “spring overshoots” as defined above are noticed in western North America. I’m curious too if spring overshoots in western Europe are predominately second year males (in those cases where sex can be determined). If anyone is kind enough to respond, please do so directly to me unless you feel your comments are of general interest. Thanks. Will Russell willrussell AT comcast.net Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Spring Overshoots From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:16:05 -0700 Will I will direct this to the group in general to get more conversation on it. In North America it seems to me that the western migration system and the eastern migration system are entirely different, not only in their geography and topography, but in their timing and character as well. One of the main differences in the west is that the landscape does not become available to birds in as large a scale as in the east, it becomes available in a patchy manner. So valleys open up earlier than mountain tops, and great corridors for migration such as the Sierra in California are only usable in the fall for example. In the West we have a huge latitudinal breeding range for many birds, Wilson's Warbler is a good example, and with that bird the migration through my region can start in March and be ongoing into May, while in the east Wilson's Warbler go through a much shorter time in a distinct pulse. We just don't have those pulses in the far west. In the west Wilson's leapfrog over each other, with northern wintering birds settling in first to southern breeding areas, and the northern breeders being the last to come in from the southernmost wintering areas (this is known from stable isotope work). I think that birds in the west use very short hops, not long flights like eastern birds. The overall slower and more methodical picking of their way through the available corridors in a sea of snow covered mountains in spring makes for behavior such as overshooting to be rare. I don't think that western birds catch a real good wind or system in the way that eastern birds and ride it to wherever it takes them and then re-position after the fact; that could land you in a real bad place in the West. Cheers, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Will Russell Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:57 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Spring Overshoots "Spring Overshoots," are a well-known migration phenomenon, perhaps especially in eastern North America, resulting in species appearing north of � in some cases far north of � their normal range. These birds tend to appear more or less at the same time that their species is arriving in its normal range, and they tend to be largely (overwhelmingly?) second year males. It isn�t clear if these birds just don�t know when to stop or if they travel north for the right period of time but for some reason go faster. I�m curious if �spring overshoots� as defined above are noticed in western North America. I�m curious too if spring overshoots in western Europe are predominately second year males (in those cases where sex can be determined). If anyone is kind enough to respond, please do so directly to me unless you feel your comments are of general interest. Thanks. Will Russell willrussell AT comcast.net � Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Spring Overshoots From: Will Russell <willrussell AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:56:35 -0700 "Spring Overshoots," are a well-known migration phenomenon, perhaps especially in eastern North America, resulting in species appearing north of � in some cases far north of � their normal range. These birds tend to appear more or less at the same time that their species is arriving in its normal range, and they tend to be largely (overwhelmingly?) second year males. It isn�t clear if these birds just don�t know when to stop or if they travel north for the right period of time but for some reason go faster. I�m curious if �spring overshoots� as defined above are noticed in western North America. I�m curious too if spring overshoots in western Europe are predominately second year males (in those cases where sex can be determined). If anyone is kind enough to respond, please do so directly to me unless you feel your comments are of general interest. Thanks. Will Russell willrussell AT comcast.net � Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 - smaller photos From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:43:03 +0200 Frank Haas> "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing."< much better, Colin Bradshaw is right, it is not a Marsh Sandpiper, more likely a Lesser Yellow-leg with very muddy legs! Cheers, Norman Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 - smaller photos From: Frank Haas <fbhaas AT PTD.NET> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:13:52 -0400 After several suggestions (complaints?), I have loaded cropped photos to my website. These will download a lot faster. http://www.franklinhaas.com/Tringa/TringaMain.html Frank Frank & Barb Haas fbhaas AT ptd.net Churchtown, PA "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing." Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: asymmetrical Lesser Black-backed Gull From: Peter Adriaens <p_adriaens AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:39:10 -0700 Hello, some gull spam for a change... This adult Lesser Black-backed Gull was photographed in Belgium at the beginning of this month: http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9065/lbbgulladzeebruggebelgi.jpg Its right leg has a much duller colour than its left one. I seem to (vaguely) remember gulls like this (e.g. LBBGull or Yellow-legged Gull with one pink and one yellow leg), but cannot find any references or photographs. Does anyone know, or does anyone have an explanation for this asymmetry ? Thanks, Peter Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 From: Peter Adriaens <p_adriaens AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:28:18 -0700 Structure, with long wings and long primary projection certainly points to one of the yellowlegs, rather than any other Tringa. Kind regards, Peter ________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Frank Haas Sent: 15 June 2009 13:26 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 In November 1997, a short-legged Tringa was seen at Springton Reservoir, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. It was with Lesser Yellowlegs and had noticeably shorter legs. Some observers thought it was a Wood Sandpiper, others thought it was just a "runt" Lesser Yellowlegs. Viewing conditions were not ideal, and, at least when I was viewing it, it stayed way out on an overcast drizzly day. I have put my photos up on a web page for all to see and comment. As far as I know these are the only photos of this bird. Here is the link. http://www.franklinhaas.com/Tringa/TringaMain.html or got to http://www.franklinhaas.com/ and click on Mystery Tringa. Any and all comments are welcome. Frank PS: Those interested in Aleutian birds may want to peruse my Birding Adak pages. Frank & Barb Haas fbhaas AT ptd.net Churchtown, PA "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing." Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.70/2177 - Release Date: 06/15/09 05:54:00 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 From: Colin Bradshaw <drcolin.bradshaw AT BTINTERNET.COM> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:46:05 +0100 I don't see this as being Wood Sandpiper at all. The relative proportions of head/neck/body are all wrong. In addition the facial markings would show even in these photos. Body/head shape would be better for Marsh Sandpiper but leg length is all wrong. Proportionately it looks like a lesser Yellowlegs to me. Cheers Colin Bradshaw -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Frank Haas Sent: 15 June 2009 13:26 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 In November 1997, a short-legged Tringa was seen at Springton Reservoir, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. It was with Lesser Yellowlegs and had noticeably shorter legs. Some observers thought it was a Wood Sandpiper, others thought it was just a "runt" Lesser Yellowlegs. Viewing conditions were not ideal, and, at least when I was viewing it, it stayed way out on an overcast drizzly day. I have put my photos up on a web page for all to see and comment. As far as I know these are the only photos of this bird. Here is the link. http://www.franklinhaas.com/Tringa/TringaMain.html or got to http://www.franklinhaas.com/ and click on Mystery Tringa. Any and all comments are welcome. Frank PS: Those interested in Aleutian birds may want to peruse my Birding Adak pages. Frank & Barb Haas fbhaas AT ptd.net Churchtown, PA "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing." Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.70/2177 - Release Date: 06/15/09 05:54:00 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: attn. listowner, subscribers - spamming, phishing using birdwg01 email address From: Mike Patterson <celata AT PACIFIER.COM> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:46:02 -0700 There are to "social networking" site MyLife.com and Tagged.com that have the capacity to co-opt address books when a user joins. The site then automatically sends out invites to every address in the address book without permission. This is a recent viral outcome of the whole myspace/facebook phenomenon. Under no circumstance should you click anything in these email invites. I know JH Krueger and I'm pretty sure that he clicked a button he shouldn't have. Jim Barton wrote: > Hello. Today I received an email from "JH Krueger" who said he had > looked for me on the site MyLife, without avail. I was invited to > reply using a dropdown box. I didn't. > > I don't know this person. The header shows that he sent his message > from a GMail account to wgo1, which then sent the message on to me. > Evidently, "Krueger" has figured out a way to use the list as if it > were my personal email. I would guess he spammed the whole list at > once. Much easier than harvest names and addresses and then sending > everyone a separate email directly. > > Wwhen I searched for "Krueger" by going directly to the MyLife site, > rather than through the dropdown box, I received a Firefox warning > against entering. -- Mike Patterson Astoria, OR 20 years on the Breeding Bird Survey http://www.surfbirds.com/blog/northcoastdiaries/11323 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: attn. listowner, subscribers - spamming, phishing using birdwg01 email address From: Jim Barton <redwingatfp1986 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:42:19 -0400 Hello. Today I received an email from "JH Krueger" who said he had looked for me on the site MyLife, without avail. I was invited to reply using a dropdown box. I didn't. I don't know this person. The header shows that he sent his message from a GMail account to wgo1, which then sent the message on to me. Evidently, "Krueger" has figured out a way to use the list as if it were my personal email. I would guess he spammed the whole list at once. Much easier than harvest names and addresses and then sending everyone a separate email directly. Wwhen I searched for "Krueger" by going directly to the MyLife site, rather than through the dropdown box, I received a Firefox warning against entering. Listowner: subscribers-- do you want me to forward the email to you? Yours, Jim Barton Cambridge, MA US and Canadian Coordinator, Proact protecting birds and their habitats before it's too late www.proact-campaigns.org Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:07:09 +0200 The needle thin bill, white rump and lower back i.e. 'sigar', pale grey plumage remind me of a Marsh Sandpiper Tringa stagnatilis! Did you make notes of the leg colour? They look blackish. Norman Frank Haas writes: > In November 1997, a short-legged Tringa was seen at Springton > Reservoir, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. It was with Lesser > Yellowlegs and had noticeably shorter legs. Some observers thought it > was a Wood Sandpiper, others thought it was just a "runt" Lesser > Yellowlegs. Viewing conditions were not ideal, and, at least when I > was viewing it, it stayed way out on an overcast drizzly day. > > I have put my photos up on a web page for all to see and comment. As > far as I know these are the only photos of this bird. > > Here is the link. > > http://www.franklinhaas.com/Tringa/TringaMain.html > > or got to http://www.franklinhaas.com/ and click on Mystery Tringa. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Mystery Tringa from PA in 1997 From: Frank Haas <fbhaas AT PTD.NET> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:26:03 -0400 In November 1997, a short-legged Tringa was seen at Springton Reservoir, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. It was with Lesser Yellowlegs and had noticeably shorter legs. Some observers thought it was a Wood Sandpiper, others thought it was just a "runt" Lesser Yellowlegs. Viewing conditions were not ideal, and, at least when I was viewing it, it stayed way out on an overcast drizzly day. I have put my photos up on a web page for all to see and comment. As far as I know these are the only photos of this bird. Here is the link. http://www.franklinhaas.com/Tringa/TringaMain.html or got to http://www.franklinhaas.com/ and click on Mystery Tringa. Any and all comments are welcome. Frank PS: Those interested in Aleutian birds may want to peruse my Birding Adak pages. Frank & Barb Haas fbhaas AT ptd.net Churchtown, PA "Wisdom begins with putting the right name to a thing." Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Jh Krueger looked for you on MyLife From: Jh Krueger <jhkrueger AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:28:13 -0700 Jh Krueger added you as a friend on MyLife(TM). Please confirm you know Jh so we can connect you. Do You Know Jh? 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For assistance, please refer to our FAQ or Contact Us: http://smtp26.mail.reunion.com:80/track?type=click&mailingid=68900&messageid=12900&databaseid=1238061938&serial=1228209694&emailid=birdwg01 AT listserv.arizona.edu&userid=65600&extra=&&&2001&&&http://help.mylife.com/ Our Address: 2118 Wilshire Blvd., Box 1008, Santa Monica, CA 90403-5784 Copyright (c) 2009 MyLife.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Birdbooker Report From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker AT ZIPCON.NET> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:28:29 -0700 HI ALL: In this week's Birdbooker Report: http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2009/06/birdbooker_report_70.php I write about two new field guides that might be of interest. sincerely -- Ian Paulsen Bainbridge Island, WA, USA " Which just goes to show that a passion for books is extremely unhealthy." from Cornelia Funke's "Inkheart". Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Pacific Loon From: Bill Hill <billhill AT REDSHIFT.COM> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:35:26 -0700 Thanks to all who commented on the Moss Landing bird. I will change the page title to Pacific Loon and study the photos some of you were kind enough to submit. Always something to learn Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Arctic Loon perhaps From: Ben Miller <bamiller AT TALK21.COM> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 08:45:27 +0100 Like Julian, I can only see a Pacific Diver here. The flanks - a diagnostic feature for Black-throated Diver/Arctic Loon - lack the required white flash. Ben, UK ----- Original Message ----- From: Julian Hough To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 4:18 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Arctic Loon perhaps Bill, From the images, do you not feel that the head shape, bill size and shape, nape color, flank color and thickness of the neckstripes fit a typical Pacific? What characteristics on this bird do you feel fit Arctic Loon? Best, Julian Hough, CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Hill To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 10:21 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Arctic Loon perhaps Rich Stallcup found this loon in the Moss Landing harbor in Central California today. He thought it looked good for an Arctic. Several of us observed the bird today and found many characteristics we liked. the throat is definitely tinged green not purple. There may or may not be white on the swimming bird depending on its speed. The pictures describe the bird well other than the green tinge which shows up black Have fun http://www.birdshotphotography.com/Arctic%20Loon/index.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.67/2173 - Release Date: 06/13/09 05:53:00 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Arctic Loon perhaps From: Jason Rogers <hawkowl AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:42:17 +0000 Here's a photo of an Arctic Loon in breeding plumage, which differs from the Moss Landing bird most clearly in bill size and nape color: http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20060620060001.jpg Jason Rogers hawkowl AT hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Attention all humans. We are your photos. Free us. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666046 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Arctic Loon perhaps From: Phil Davis <pdavis AT IX.NETCOM.COM> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 02:00:49 -0400 Bill, et al. FWIW, I was able to capture an image of an Arctic and Pacific Loon juxtaposed at Nome earlier this spring ... http://birdimages.posterous.com/nome-ak-spring-2009-images In at least one of your images (#1964), I think the bill on your bird appears to favor the profile of a Pacific. Also, I would say that the number and thickness of the neck stripes seem to support Pacific. Phil >Bill, > > From the images, do you not feel that the head shape, bill size and > shape, nape color, flank color and thickness of the neckstripes fit > a typical Pacific? > >What characteristics on this bird do you feel fit Arctic Loon? > >Best, > >Julian Hough, >CT, USA >jrhough1 AT snet.net > >www.naturescapeimages.net >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Hill >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 10:21 PM >Subject: [BIRDWG01] Arctic Loon perhaps > >Rich Stallcup found this loon in the Moss Landing harbor in Central >California today. He thought it looked good for an Arctic. Several >of us observed the bird today and found many characteristics we >liked. the throat is definitely tinged green not purple. There may >or may not be white on the swimming bird depending on its >speed. The pictures describe the bird well other than the green >tinge which shows up black > >Have fun > >http://www.birdshotphotography.com/Arctic%20Loon/index.html ================================== Phil Davis Davidsonville, Maryland USA mailto:PDavis AT ix.netcom.com ================================== Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Arctic Loon perhaps From: Julian Hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 23:18:16 -0400 Bill, From the images, do you not feel that the head shape, bill size and shape, nape color, flank color and thickness of the neckstripes fit a typical Pacific? What characteristics on this bird do you feel fit Arctic Loon? Best, Julian Hough, CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Hill To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 10:21 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Arctic Loon perhaps Rich Stallcup found this loon in the Moss Landing harbor in Central California today. He thought it looked good for an Arctic. Several of us observed the bird today and found many characteristics we liked. the throat is definitely tinged green not purple. There may or may not be white on the swimming bird depending on its speed. The pictures describe the bird well other than the green tinge which shows up black Have fun http://www.birdshotphotography.com/Arctic%20Loon/index.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Re; InterestingPlover RFI with link included From: Harry Lehto <hlehto AT UTU.FI> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:06:06 +0300 Matt, I sent privately some comments to Greg - before seeing anybody else's comments - and as they seem still relevant, I'll forward them to you and the list... Greg, I'm not quite sure which plumage would you suggest your bird to be. To me this bird doesn't in fact look like a dotterel at all. For example the head looks too big and pronounced, and the neck appears too long. In your pictures further down the web page the dark crown looks quite off for what I am used to seeing in a dotterel. As a final point, the habitat seems too wet and the grass too long for a typical dotterel habitat - they tend to prefer ploughed fields, very short grass (say < inch), or areas where there is short grass mixed in a sandy/sandish soil. I have seen dotterels during stopovers in Southern Finland (and in UK) and on breeding grounds in Lapland (Northern Finland). I don't have my dotterel pictures very accessible, as they are old fashioned slides, but there is a good collection at the following web site. When you look at the pictures note the dates and the postures of the birds. The pictures taken at Saariselkä, Inari, Ivalo and Utsjoki are at breeding grounds - all other birds are during migration. (all on one line) http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?sp=find〈=eng&order=nro,paiva%20DESC&species=14540 alternatively you may want to go at www.tarsiger.com and click on the UK flag on the left and make a species search on dotterel. Best Regards Harry hlehto AT utu.fi Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re; InterestingPlover RFI with link included From: Matt Fraker <frakerpovc AT AOL.COM> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:42:32 -0400 Sorry -- here is the link to the photos: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=22740.0 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Interesting Plover RFI From: Matt Fraker <frakerpovc AT AOL.COM> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:38:09 -0400 Greetings, everyone -- I was just?requesting information on this bird more from the perspective of education rather than any attempt at debating or attempting to document (which the photo quality would admittedly prevent). I fell for this bird hook, line, and sinker, and I am still not sure I wouldn't do it again. I know there was some discussion about the water, but I think that was addressed by the extreme weather conditions and the fact that there was also a Mountain Plover present. I also know size was a big issue, especially in that second photo. It seems odd that the bird in question would go from comparable in size to a Buff-breasted Sandpiper (the first and better photo) to a bird hulkingly bigger than a Killdeer -- I don't know what the hell that thing is in the second photo -- it looks like someone left their pinata in the meadow. The third photo has the bird looking comparable or smaller than the Golden Plover (as an FYI,?four very fine birders in two separate parties of two thought they had a?Pacific Golden in this same field). Plumage was only discussed briefly, from the?important point of view of what you would expect a bird in this situation's breastband to appear like, and regarding the lighting conditions. But more specifically -- and this is where I'm struggling -- ?strictly from a plumage discussion (and to re emphasize, for education,?NOT debate), would anyone be willing to just briefly discuss what was wrong on that first and third photo for Dotterel? I'm probably just looking for the consolation prize of not being crazy (been looking for that one for quite some time now...) Any back channel input would be greatly appreciated;?and of course,?light ridicule is always welcome. Thanks for your time and your patience. Matt Fraker Bloomington, Ill but thankfully in Jackson Hole, Wyo for the moment... Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: An Interesting Plover From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Greg_Neise?= <gregneise AT ILBIRDS.COM> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:22:28 -0700 Thanks all for the comments and thoughts. The general consensus is that this bird is an unusually marked American Golden Plover. There have been a few specific comments that I'd like to address: NL: 2. The bird looks large and rangy compared to the bird in front of it, which doesn't look like a small peep. Dotterels are rather compact. ## The bird in front is a Buff-breasted Sandpiper. 3. It looks like it is wading around in water, which I have never seen or heard of Dotterels doing, although the hurricane conditions might not have given it too many options in this case! ## Indeed, that day set the record for the most rain in one calendar day in northern Illinois history. From the IL State Climatologists Office: "Chicago (at O'Hare airport) reported 6.64 inches on September 13, setting a new record for the most rain in one calendar day in Chicago's history. The old record was 6.49 inches on August 14, 1987. Chicago climate records date back to 1871." The fields that the birds were in are part of a sod farm based on sandy soil...normally pretty dry, and it's where we Chicagoans go for our fall Buff-breasted, Baird's and White-rumped sandpipers...as well as migrating plovers. On this day, the irrigation ditches were overflowing, shooting water into the fields through the drainage culverts. A field that in the morning was mostly dry became a 3-foot deep lake with a flock of terns feeding over it by 4 pm! Interestingly, one of the first photos of a fall Dotterel that I found in my Google searching was taken 19 October 2008 by Stuart Fisher at Titchwell RSPB Reverve, Norfolk, England, UK: http://ibc.lynxeds.com/photo/eurasian-dotterel-charadrius-morinellus/migrant-group-golden-plover It shows a Dotterel standing belly-deep in water surrounded by European Golden Plover. Also that bird certainly does appear smaller and more compact than the European Goldens around it...but it's also certainly not as striking a difference as, say, a peep among Dowitchers. 4. In the Mountain Plover shot lower in the sequences, the bird to the right of the MOPO has a supercilium and striking dark belly similar to the bird in your photos. I think this may be the same bird. I would suspect an AMGP that looks funny in the picture - as I can't think of any other explanation for the breast band. ## I took a look at that shot, and I don't think it's the same bird for a couple of reasons: 1) that bird has a black belly and vent, while the bird in question has a pale belly and vent, and 2) that bird appears to have a pale forehead, while the bird in question has a dark forehead. 1. Every bird I have seen in fall (all juvs, don't know about adults) hasn't showed such a striking dark belly/pale breast band as this. ##I've posted the full-size images, as they came out of the camera in the original thread on IBF. The very first picture that I posted has the contrast boosted and makes the breast band look a bit more pronounced that it really is, I think. http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=22740.msg27301#msg27301 Cheers, -greg neise Berwyn, IL Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: An Interesting Plover From: Ben Miller <bamiller AT TALK21.COM> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:31:20 +0000 Greg, � I agree with the points Nick makes; from a European perspective, on this image your bird certainly could not be identified as a Eurasian Dotterel, and I'd agree with Nick's suggestion of an AGP impacted by photo effect. � Cheers, � Ben UK --- On Thu, 11/6/09, Lethaby, Nick wrote: From: Lethaby, Nick Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] An Interesting Plover To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Date: Thursday, 11 June, 2009, 4:20 AM Greg: While the bird has a strong superficial resemblance to a breeding Eurasian Dotterel on plumage, I think some of this might be due to photographic effects. Although I have only seen a few dotterels over the years (mostly in the UK many years ago), I would make the following comments: 1. Every bird I have seen in fall (all juvs, don't know about adults) hasn't showed such a striking dark belly/pale breast band as this. 2. The bird looks large and rangy compared to the bird in front of it, which doesn't look like a small peep. Dotterels are rather compact. 3. It looks like it is wading around in water, which I have never seen or heard of Dotterels doing, although the hurricane conditions might not have given it too many options in this case! 4. In the Mountain Plover shot lower in the sequences, the bird to the right of the MOPO has a supercilium and striking dark belly similar to the bird in your photos. I think this may be the same bird. I would suspect an AMGP that looks funny in the picture - as I can't think of any other explanation for the breast band. Nick -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Greg_Neise?= Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:04 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] An Interesting Plover Hi all, I was digging through shots from last fall, and while reminiscing about relocating the Mountain Plover (1st IL record) during the last hurrah of a hurricane that swept up into Illinois, I came across a bird in the background of two photos that looks like it can't be anything other than a Eurasian Dotterel. I would like it if anyone with an opinion/experience would take a look at the pictures, and share above mentioned opinion with me. Here's where the pics are: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=22740.0 ...and please note that we're still not up to 100% speed yet at IBF (I moved it to a new hosting provider yesterday), and it may take between 1 second and 130 seconds to load the page. But it will not time out or fail to connect. Just be patient with it for a day or two. If you would share your thoughts on the forum, that would be great...but via ID Frontiers or personal email is fine also. Cheers, -greg neise Berwyn, IL Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: An Interesting Plover From: Pierre-Andr� CROCHET <pierre-andre.crochet AT CEFE.CNRS.FR> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:20:34 +0200 Same here: can't see a Dotterel in this bird, and I see Dotterel more or less every year. Nick's suggestion seems to the be reasonable. Only remark: I remember a juv Dotterel in the Camargue a few years ago in September which was associating with a flock of Calidris and Charadrius on mudflats. Most Camargue records of Dotterel are on short grass meadows or bare grouns with scattered bush. But even this one was not seen wading in water... Pierre-Andr� Crochet CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive 1919, route de Mende 34293 Montpellier cedex 5 France tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75 (mobile) + 33 4 67 61 32 98 (office) fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38 -----Message d'origine----- De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] De la part de Lethaby, Nick Envoy� : 11 June 2009 05:20 � : BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] An Interesting Plover Greg: While the bird has a strong superficial resemblance to a breeding Eurasian Dotterel on plumage, I think some of this might be due to photographic effects. Although I have only seen a few dotterels over the years (mostly in the UK many years ago), I would make the following comments: 1. Every bird I have seen in fall (all juvs, don't know about adults) hasn't showed such a striking dark belly/pale breast band as this. 2. The bird looks large and rangy compared to the bird in front of it, which doesn't look like a small peep. Dotterels are rather compact. 3. It looks like it is wading around in water, which I have never seen or heard of Dotterels doing, although the hurricane conditions might not have given it too many options in this case! 4. In the Mountain Plover shot lower in the sequences, the bird to the right of the MOPO has a supercilium and striking dark belly similar to the bird in your photos. I think this may be the same bird. I would suspect an AMGP that looks funny in the picture - as I can't think of any other explanation for the breast band. Nick -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Greg_Neise?= Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:04 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] An Interesting Plover Hi all, I was digging through shots from last fall, and while reminiscing about relocating the Mountain Plover (1st IL record) during the last hurrah of a hurricane that swept up into Illinois, I came across a bird in the background of two photos that looks like it can't be anything other than a Eurasian Dotterel. I would like it if anyone with an opinion/experience would take a look at the pictures, and share above mentioned opinion with me. Here's where the pics are: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=22740.0 ...and please note that we're still not up to 100% speed yet at IBF (I moved it to a new hosting provider yesterday), and it may take between 1 second and 130 seconds to load the page. But it will not time out or fail to connect. Just be patient with it for a day or two. If you would share your thoughts on the forum, that would be great...but via ID Frontiers or personal email is fine also. Cheers, -greg neise Berwyn, IL Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html -- passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier -- -- passerelle antivirus du campus CNRS de Montpellier -- Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: An Interesting Plover From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:20:03 -0500 Greg: While the bird has a strong superficial resemblance to a breeding Eurasian Dotterel on plumage, I think some of this might be due to photographic effects. Although I have only seen a few dotterels over the years (mostly in the UK many years ago), I would make the following comments: 1. Every bird I have seen in fall (all juvs, don't know about adults) hasn't showed such a striking dark belly/pale breast band as this. 2. The bird looks large and rangy compared to the bird in front of it, which doesn't look like a small peep. Dotterels are rather compact. 3. It looks like it is wading around in water, which I have never seen or heard of Dotterels doing, although the hurricane conditions might not have given it too many options in this case! 4. In the Mountain Plover shot lower in the sequences, the bird to the right of the MOPO has a supercilium and striking dark belly similar to the bird in your photos. I think this may be the same bird. I would suspect an AMGP that looks funny in the picture - as I can't think of any other explanation for the breast band. Nick -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Greg_Neise?= Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:04 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] An Interesting Plover Hi all, I was digging through shots from last fall, and while reminiscing about relocating the Mountain Plover (1st IL record) during the last hurrah of a hurricane that swept up into Illinois, I came across a bird in the background of two photos that looks like it can't be anything other than a Eurasian Dotterel. I would like it if anyone with an opinion/experience would take a look at the pictures, and share above mentioned opinion with me. Here's where the pics are: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=22740.0 ...and please note that we're still not up to 100% speed yet at IBF (I moved it to a new hosting provider yesterday), and it may take between 1 second and 130 seconds to load the page. But it will not time out or fail to connect. Just be patient with it for a day or two. If you would share your thoughts on the forum, that would be great...but via ID Frontiers or personal email is fine also. Cheers, -greg neise Berwyn, IL Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: An Interesting Plover From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Greg_Neise?= <gregneise AT ILBIRDS.COM> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:04:11 -0700 Hi all, I was digging through shots from last fall, and while reminiscing about relocating the Mountain Plover (1st IL record) during the last hurrah of a hurricane that swept up into Illinois, I came across a bird in the background of two photos that looks like it can't be anything other than a Eurasian Dotterel. I would like it if anyone with an opinion/experience would take a look at the pictures, and share above mentioned opinion with me. Here's where the pics are: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=22740.0 ...and please note that we're still not up to 100% speed yet at IBF (I moved it to a new hosting provider yesterday), and it may take between 1 second and 130 seconds to load the page. But it will not time out or fail to connect. Just be patient with it for a day or two. If you would share your thoughts on the forum, that would be great...but via ID Frontiers or personal email is fine also. Cheers, -greg neise Berwyn, IL Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Another mystery gull From: phoebetria AT AOL.COM Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:29:11 -0400 Well, I will jump in and offer a non-hybrid possibility - Black-billed Gull (Chroicocephalus bulleri) from New Zealand.? Not too far from Minnesota.? I don't know of any other reports in North America, though Red-billed Gull has been documented a few times in the mid-Atlantic states (always assumed to be escapees, though records of Laughing Gull, for instance, are not treated as suspicious in Australasia).? But I think the "Silver Gull" complex is popular in zoological settings in North America - worth investigating. Ned Brinkley Cape Charles, VA -----Original Message----- From: Steve Sosensky To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:23 pm Subject: [BIRDWG01] Another mystery gull Hi All,? ? Who'da thunk we'd have GullChat in June?? ? I photographed this gull http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30373047&id=1504442860&saved today in Roseau Co. MN in a field in the South Shore WMA. It looked to me to like a Mew Gull with black bill and legs. It was with Riing-billeds and was about the same size and mantle color. Ideas anyone?? ? Good birding,? Steve? ? Steve Sosensky ? Aliso Viejo CA ? Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01? ? Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html? Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Another mystery gull From: Steve Sosensky <steve AT SOSENSKY.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:23:36 -0700 Hi All, Who'da thunk we'd have GullChat in June? I photographed this gull http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30373047&id=1504442860&saved today in Roseau Co. MN in a field in the South Shore WMA. It looked to me to like a Mew Gull with black bill and legs. It was with Riing-billeds and was about the same size and mantle color. Ideas anyone? Good birding, Steve Steve Sosensky Aliso Viejo CA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Possible Least x Pied-billed Grebe Hybrid (USA) From: Marcel Such <mpsuch AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:03:19 -0600 Hi All, While working through my photos from a recent trip to south Texas, I came across this photo of a grebe (link below). At the time the photograph was taken, I assumed this was a Least Grebe (Tachybaptus dominicus). A few days ago, I looked at this photograph more closely and realized that something was amiss! I wonder if it could be a Least x Pied-billed Grebe hybrid. Pyle II (2008) says that this hybrid has never been recorded before. The photo was taken at Estero Llano Grande State Park, Hidalgo County, on February 23, 2009. I sent the photo to Tony Leukering, and he suggested sending it on to this list. I've posted the photo on our blog... http://suchboys.blogspot.com/2009/06/odd-looking-grebe.html -- Marcel Such NW of Lyons, CO, USA mpsuch AT gmail.com suchboys.blogspot.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Gray-collared Becard in Arizona From: Kurt Radamaker <kurtrad AT MEXICOBIRDING.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:56:06 -0700 Hello all, A stunning first US Record of Gray-collared Becard showed up last weekend in the Chiricahuas. Several excellent photos have been posted to the Arizona Field Ornithologist Website at: http://www.azfo.org/gallery/2009/html2/OTHE_Becard_West_20090605.html In viewing the photos the bird seems to have an excessive amount of feather wear, and it appears to be missing a bunch of body feathers on the right side just under the breast. In the last photo these missing or injured feathers create a lump on the side. I'm curious of what others think of the amount of wear and missing feathers. Best Kurt Radamaker Fountain Hills, AZ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Dark-eyed Egret From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:13:54 -0700 The best information I could find on Ardeid soft-part color changes in North America was in the following: Meyerriecks, A.J. 1960. Comparative breeding behavior of four species of North American herons. Publ. Nuttall Ornith. Club 2:1-158. I agree that it could use a revision. Peter At 08:14 AM 6/9/2009, Matt Fraker wrote: >Greetings, everyone -- > >I just find it interesting that a somewhat similar discussion, if I >am not mistaken, took place in April with Kenneth Allaire's Striated >Heron -- I believe that was another situation where iris issues and >facial color contributed to some of the identification confusion. > >http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0904c&L=birdwg01&T=0&P=2818 > >Remember the rule -- if it comes up a third time someone needs to >write a monograph on "The Week-Long Iris and Facial Color Changes of >Miscellaneous Ardeids" > >Maybe we can put this in that new field guide next to the "Red >Crossbills -- They're Easy" monograph authored by Marquis du Sade. > >Matt Fraker >Bloomington, Illinois > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Norman D.van Swelm >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Sent: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 8:48 am >Subject: [BIRDWG01] Dark-eyed Egret > >All pictures now available of Dark-eyed Egrets have been uploaded here: > > >http://www.radioactiverobins.com/egretta%20garzetta/indexegrettagarzetta2%20-%20.htm > > >My sincere thanks go to Ozkan Uner, Dick Hoek, Mike Parker and all >others who have commented so far. >Norman Deans van Swelm >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > >Archives: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > >---------- >Wanna slim down for summer? Go to >America >Takes it Off to learn how. > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: 4/12 Gull From: Paul Conover <zoiseaux AT COX.NET> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:11:07 -0500 Seems from the lull in traffic that everyone must be either passing a great time birding, or not finding anything too ambiguous. I hope some of you are still online out there. The gull on the link below was seen on 4/12/2009. I'm not sure what it is, so there won't be any prize attached--sorry. This is strictly out of curiosity, in the hopes of expert input. Presumably, gulls being gulls and turning up well outside of their ranges, this picture could've been taken anywhere. Since range can help or hinder bird ID, I'd like to see if anyone would like to make a go of its ID without location being mentioned. If you saw it in your area, what would you call it? I'm new to Picasa. I hope the link works. http://picasaweb.google.com/zoiseaux2/412Gull# Thanks, Paul Conover [location undisclosed] [but easy enough to find out] Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Dark-eyed Egret From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:17:15 +0200 And while you study the subject, you may want to know how Little Egrets look in their week of glory, see here: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/egretta%20garzetta/indexegrettagarzetta1.htm Cheers, Norman >I just find it interesting that a somewhat similar discussion, if I am not mistaken, took place in April with Kenneth Allaire's Striated Heron -- I believe that was another situation where iris issues and facial color contributed to some of the identification confusion. http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0904c&L=birdwg01&T=0&P=2818 Remember the rule -- if it comes up a third time someone needs to write a monograph on "The Week-Long Iris and Facial Color Changes of Miscellaneous Ardeids" Maybe we can put this in that new field guide next to the "Red Crossbills -- They're Easy" monograph authored by Marquis du Sade. Matt Fraker Bloomington, Illinois -----Original Message----- From: Norman D.van Swelm To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 8:48 am Subject: [BIRDWG01] Dark-eyed Egret All pictures now available of Dark-eyed Egrets have been uploaded here: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/egretta%20garzetta/indexegrettagarzetta2%20-%20.htm My sincere thanks go to Ozkan Uner, Dick Hoek, Mike Parker and all others who have commented so far. Norman Deans van Swelm Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Dark-eyed Egret From: Matt Fraker <frakerpovc AT AOL.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:14:30 -0400 Greetings, everyone -- I just find it interesting that a somewhat similar discussion, if I am not mistaken, took place in April with Kenneth Allaire's Striated Heron --?I believe?that was another situation where?iris issues and facial color contributed to some of the identification confusion. http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0904c&L=birdwg01&T=0&P=2818 Remember the rule -- if it comes up a third time someone needs to write a?monograph?on "The Week-Long Iris and Facial Color Changes of Miscellaneous Ardeids" Maybe we can put this in that new field guide next to the "Red Crossbills -- They're Easy" monograph authored by Marquis du Sade. Matt Fraker Bloomington, Illinois -----Original Message----- From: Norman D.van Swelm To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 8:48 am Subject: [BIRDWG01] Dark-eyed Egret All pictures now available of Dark-eyed Egrets have been uploaded here:? ? ? http://www.radioactiverobins.com/egretta%20garzetta/indexegrettagarzetta2%20-%20.htm? ? My sincere thanks go to Ozkan Uner, Dick Hoek, Mike Parker and all others who have commented so far.? Norman Deans van Swelm ? Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01? ? Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html? Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Dark-eyed Egret From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:48:23 +0200 All pictures now available of Dark-eyed Egrets have been uploaded here: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/egretta%20garzetta/indexegrettagarzetta2%20-%20.htm My sincere thanks go to Ozkan Uner, Dick Hoek, Mike Parker and all others who have commented so far. Norman Deans van Swelm Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: teal ID From: Jim Pike <jpike44 AT EARTHLINK.NET> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 22:16:42 -0700 Hi Mitch, It's interesting how different photos/angles/postures suggest different possible identifications. However, numbering your photos (and sketch) as 1- 12, I'd say that photos 8 and 10 look dead-on for female Green-winged Teal (notwithstanding the fact that the bird does show an unusually bold cheek stripe). Pointing away from Garganey is the obscure, rather than bold supercilium, and the lack of a contrastingly pale chin and upper throat. In addition, there appears to be some orange at the bill base (better for Green-winged), as suggested in photos 2 and 5. So, in the absence of better photographs, or solid observations of the wing pattern in flight, Green-winged Teal would be the default choice. Jim Pike Huntington Beach, CA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Little Egret with dark eyes From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 03:02:39 +0200 Hi Harry and all, I would be surprised if hormones were not involved. The question is if this phenomenon is widespread and common or restricted to a geographic region. What is rather surprising, is that it does not seem to have been noticed before. At least that is what it looks like so far. Norman Harry Hussey wrote: >That Little Egret certainly seems quite unusual. I was wondering, however, if the rather odd loral colouration may have something to do with the transition between the normal blue-grey, as seen by most birds for much of the year, and the reddish colour attained briefly each year during the height of the courtship period (a time when the feet also become reddish)? I concede that the darker iris is harder to explain, but I do know that, in some gulls, for example, iris colour can also change with the onset of breeding condition, presumably due to changes in hormone levels, so perhaps this also could be the case with herons/egrets, at least occasionally. --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Norman D.van Swelm wrote: About a month ago I photographed an adult Little Egret Egretta garzetta with dark greyish eyes and a pink to purple facial skin. Pictures can be seen here: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/egretta%20garzetta/indexegrettagarzetta1.htm scroll down to the last pictures. As a rule the eyes of Little Egrets are pale yellow in both adults and juveniles. Are there any other records of Little Egrets with dark eyes? Cheers, Norman Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: teal ID From: Mitch <mitch AT UTOPIANATURE.COM> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 16:14:53 -0500 Hi all, I am interested in opinions on this teal just recently poorly digiscoped: http://www.utopianature.com/TEAL.html Thank you, Mitch Heindel Utopia, TX www.utopianature.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Another Wood Pewee in the West... From: Ted Floyd <tedfloyd57 AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:10:07 -0700 Hello, Birders. Gavin Bieber, kingbird77 AT HOTMAIL.COM, writes: > Hello Birders, Although I don't really want to overload > the listserve with flycatcher queries it is a nice change > from the winter Gull discussions I suppose. Separating > Pewees without hearing them sing is an ID challenge over > which I have little confidence, but I would like to submit > another bird for this groups consideration. There was an article last year in Birding on separating the wood-pewees. The main emphasis in the article (by Cin-Ty Lee, Andrew Birch, and Ted Eubanks) is on "dimensionless" characters such as the ratio of wing length to tail length. It also contains a review and synthesis of some of the more traditional field marks (e.g., wing bars, bill color) for separating the two species. The article can be downloaded from the ABA website: http://aba.org/birding/v40n5p34.pdf Ted Floyd tedfloyd57 AT hotmail.com Lafayette, Boulder County, Colorado ------------------------------- Ted Floyd Editor, Birding ------------------------------- Please support the American Birding Association: Click on http://www.goodsearch.com/?charityid=884482 to search the internet. Every search provides support to the ABA's programs in Education, Conservation, and Publications. Please visit the website of the American Birding Association: http://www.aba.org _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail�. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Little Egret with dark eyes From: Harry Hussey <hhussey3 AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:54:22 +0000 Hi Norman, �� That Little Egret certainly seems quite unusual. I was wondering, however, if the rather odd loral colouration may have something to do with the transition between the normal blue-grey, as seen by most birds for much of the year, and the reddish colour attained briefly each year during the height of the courtship period (a time when the feet also become reddish)? I concede that the darker iris is harder to explain, but I do know that, in some gulls, for example, iris colour can also change with the onset of breeding condition, presumably due to changes in hormone levels, so perhaps this also could be the case with herons/egrets, at least occasionally. ���������������������������������������� Regards, ��������������������������������������������� Harry --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Norman D.van Swelm wrote: From: Norman D.van Swelm Subject: [BIRDWG01] Little Egret with dark eyes To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Date: Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 9:19 PM � About a month ago I photographed an adult Little Egret Egretta garzetta with dark greyish eyes and a pink to purple facial skin. Pictures can be seen here:� � � � http://www.radioactiverobins.com/egretta%20garzetta/indexegrettagarzetta1.htm � � scroll down to the last pictures. � As a rule the eyes of Little Egrets are pale yellow in both adults and juveniles.�Are there any other records of Little Egrets with dark eyes? Cheers, Norman� Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Fw: [MEBirdNet] Little Egret with dark eyes From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 00:54:04 +0200 Dear Ozkan, The resemblance of your bird and mine is stunning! Even the colours of the facial skin are the same. If you go back to my pictures you will find more pictures taken during breeding time April/May, all taken in Western Europe i.e. in Spain, France and The Netherlands. None of these birds have dark eyes while their facial skin is pale blue-ish. It is said that one race i.e. the race garzetta occurs from all the way from Spain to Japan. Could it be, I wonder, that the differences we see in our pictures reflect a genuine difference between the Little Egrets of the West and East Mediterranean? Regards, Norman From: "ozkan uner | europho.to" To: Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [MEBirdNet] Little Egret with dark eyes > Hi Norman > > May be because of breeding time colors change. I dont have any scientific > information but i find two photos from nearly same period of the year, > similar little egret photos. Photos taken in Meric Delta, near Greek > border > of Turkey. I attach them to the mail for you, mines eyes are also looks a > bit greyish. I havent noticed it before. > photos can be seen at: http://www.europho.to/081-egrettagarzetta-2928.jpg http://www.europho.to/082-egrettagarzetta-2929.jpg > Warm Regards > ozkan uner | www.europho.to > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Norman D.van Swelm" >> About a month ago I photographed an adult Little Egret Egretta garzetta >> with dark greyish eyes and a pink to purple facial skin. Pictures can be >> seen here: >> >> >> http://www.radioactiverobins.com/egretta%20garzetta/indexegrettagarzetta1.htm >> >> >> scroll down to the last pictures. >> >> As a rule the eyes of Little Egrets are pale yellow in both adults and >> juveniles. Are there any other records of Little Egrets with dark eyes? >> Cheers, Norman Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Little Egret with dark eyes From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:19:36 +0200 About a month ago I photographed an adult Little Egret Egretta garzetta with dark greyish eyes and a pink to purple facial skin. Pictures can be seen here: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/egretta%20garzetta/indexegrettagarzetta1.htm scroll down to the last pictures. As a rule the eyes of Little Egrets are pale yellow in both adults and juveniles. Are there any other records of Little Egrets with dark eyes? Cheers, Norman Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Another Wood Pewee in the West... From: Gavin Bieber <kingbird77 AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 23:18:01 +0000 Hello Birders,Although I don't really want to overload the listserve with flycatcher queries it is a nice change from the winter Gull discussions I suppose. Separating Pewees without hearing them sing is an ID challenge over which I have little confidence, but I would like to submit another bird for this groups consideration. While birding at a desert hot springs in SE Arizona Jake Mohlmann and I located an interesting Pewee which (unfortunately) remained silent. One photo has been posted at http://adventurebirding.blogspot.com/ and others can be forwarded to interested parties upon request. The white throat, evenly pale and unvested underparts (lower belly had a yellowish wash which did not come out in the pics), extensively pale lower mandible (nearly all pale from underneath as shown on other pics), evenly bright wingbars and apparently longer tailed look were noted. In addition to this bird was another Pewee nearby which was noticeably duskier across the chest and flanks, with a darker throat and back, and nearly all dark lower mandible. This bird was photographed for comparison and is also viewable at the URL given. Any comments on this bird would be appreciated, Gavin Bieber Kingbird77 AT hotmail.comTucson, AZ Senior Leader,WINGS www.wingsbirds.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live� SkyDrive�: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: A Wood Pewee from Oregon (long and boring) From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:05:12 -0500 No one's claiming it's 100% diagnostic, but the fact that that 'occasionally' an Eastern Wood-Pewee can show a Western Wood-Pewee bill pattern isn't very supportive when claiming a rare vagrant. E. Wood-Pewees are very rare in CA and OR and the chances of one of the occasional ones that shows a W. Wood-pewee like bill pattern turning up are not very high. In general many id features are variable enough individually that odd birds will show a feature associated as 'diagnostic' for another species. However, it doesn't mean that feature immediately has no value in separating the two species. ________________________________ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Leith McKenzie Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 9:57 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] A Wood Pewee from Oregon (long and boring) Two people have suggested that the bill coloration indicates Western Wood Pewee. I refer them to: Field Identification of Western & Eastern Wood-Pewees by Cin-Ty Lee, Andrew Birch, and Ted Lee Eubanks Quote: "One field mark that is often depicted in field guides is bill color (Fig. 6). There is a general tendency for Eastern to have a largely or completely pale-orange or pale-yellow lower mandible. In contrast, the lower mandible on Western is generally duskier, ranging from pale at the base to completely dark underneath. We emphasize that considerable care must be taken with this field mark. Some Easterns occasionally have dusky lower mandibles extending from the tip and halfway to the base of the bill, overlapping with Western's lower mandible. In addition, some Westerns can have almost entirely pale lower mandibles. We thus caution that this field mark alone is not reliable." So the bill color of the Fields bird can be indicative of either species. I have uploaded a highly enhanced view of the Fields Pewee, showing that the tail extension is much longer than the primary extension and that the tail is held cocked below a line running along the back and primaries. Items number 3 and 4 in summary of the above referenced article. http://www.flickr.com/photos/30397515 AT N07/3589670576/ As I said yesterday, the wing bars of the subject bird were both very bold and the same off-white color. Item number 2 in the article. In addition, the underparts Fields Pewee did not have the strongly vested appearance that is characteristic of Western Wood Pewee. Instead the dark areas were sharply attenuated in the middle of the chest, giving way to a very pale belly. In the bins, this effect was quite pronounced, giving the bird a horizontally banded appearance, instead of a vertically vested appearance. Item number 6 in article. Finally, there is a the fact that I took note of the bird as something unusual on May 23, and that when I first saw Mike Denny early on May 24, he was studying reference materials on Wood Pewees because he had taken note of the same bird. We both have spent several thousands of hours in the field observing birds, including hundreds of Western Wood Pewees. The gestalt of this bird caused us, indepently, to take a closer look. Leith "Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of freedom." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: A Wood Pewee from Oregon (long and boring) From: Leith McKenzie <loinneilceol AT yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Two people have suggested that the bill coloration indicates Western Wood Pewee.  I refer them to: Field Identification of Western & Eastern Wood-Pewees by Cin-Ty Lee, Andrew Birch, and Ted Lee Eubanks Quote: "One field mark that is often depicted in field guides is bill color (Fig. 6). There is a general tendency for Eastern to have a largely or completely pale-orange or pale-yellow lower mandible. In contrast, the lower mandible on Western is generally duskier, ranging from pale at the base to completely dark underneath. We emphasize that considerable care must be taken with this field mark. Some Easterns occasionally have dusky lower mandibles extending from the tip and halfway to the base of the bill, overlapping with Western’s lower mandible. In addition, some Westerns can have almost entirely pale lower mandibles. We thus caution that this field mark alone is not reliable." So the bill color of the Fields bird can be indicative of either species. I have uploaded a highly enhanced view of the Fields Pewee, showing that the tail extension is much longer than the primary extension and that the tail is held cocked below a line running along the back and primaries.  Items number 3 and 4 in summary of the above referenced article. http://www.flickr.com/photos/30397515 AT N07/3589670576/ As I said yesterday, the wing bars of the subject bird were both very bold and the same off-white color.  Item number 2 in the article. In addition, the underparts Fields Pewee did not have the strongly vested appearance that is characteristic of Western Wood Pewee.  Instead the dark areas were sharply attenuated in the middle of the chest, giving way to a very pale belly.  In the bins, this effect was quite pronounced, giving the bird a horizontally banded appearance, instead of a vertically vested appearance. Item number 6 in article. Finally, there is a the fact that I took note of the bird as something unusual on May 23, and that when I first saw Mike Denny early on May 24, he was studying reference materials on Wood Pewees because he had taken note of the same bird. We both have spent several thousands of hours in the field observing birds, including hundreds of Western Wood Pewees. The gestalt of this bird caused us, indepently, to take a closer look. Leith “Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of freedom.” Jonathan Livingston Seagull _______________________________________________ obol mailing list obol AT oregonbirdwatch.org http://oregonbirdwatch.org/mailman/listinfo/obol Subject: Re: A Wood Pewee from Oregon (long and boring) From: Leith McKenzie <loinneilceol AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:56:34 -0700 Two people have suggested that the bill coloration indicates Western Wood Pewee.  I refer them to: Field Identification of Western & Eastern Wood-Pewees by Cin-Ty Lee, Andrew Birch, and Ted Lee Eubanks Quote: "One field mark that is often depicted in field guides is bill color (Fig. 6). There is a general tendency for Eastern to have a largely or completely pale-orange or pale-yellow lower mandible. In contrast, the lower mandible on Western is generally duskier, ranging from pale at the base to completely dark underneath. We emphasize that considerable care must be taken with this field mark. Some Easterns occasionally have dusky lower mandibles extending from the tip and halfway to the base of the bill, overlapping with Western’s lower mandible. In addition, some Westerns can have almost entirely pale lower mandibles. We thus caution that this field mark alone is not reliable." So the bill color of the Fields bird can be indicative of either species. I have uploaded a highly enhanced view of the Fields Pewee, showing that the tail extension is much longer than the primary extension and that the tail is held cocked below a line running along the back and primaries.  Items number 3 and 4 in summary of the above referenced article. http://www.flickr.com/photos/30397515 AT N07/3589670576/ As I said yesterday, the wing bars of the subject bird were both very bold and the same off-white color.  Item number 2 in the article. In addition, the underparts Fields Pewee did not have the strongly vested appearance that is characteristic of Western Wood Pewee.  Instead the dark areas were sharply attenuated in the middle of the chest, giving way to a very pale belly.  In the bins, this effect was quite pronounced, giving the bird a horizontally banded appearance, instead of a vertically vested appearance. Item number 6 in article. Finally, there is a the fact that I took note of the bird as something unusual on May 23, and that when I first saw Mike Denny early on May 24, he was studying reference materials on Wood Pewees because he had taken note of the same bird. We both have spent several thousands of hours in the field observing birds, including hundreds of Western Wood Pewees. The gestalt of this bird caused us, indepently, to take a closer look. Leith “Each of us is in truth an idea of the Great Gull and an unlimited idea of freedom.” Jonathan Livingston Seagull Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Lilian's Meadowlark songs From: Nathan Pieplow <npieplow AT INDRA.COM> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:19:59 -0600 Hello all, I've just realized my long ambition of starting a blog dedicated to bird sound identification. My first post is a quick introduction to web resources on Red Crossbill types, and my second post is on the identification of Lilian's Meadowlark by song. I have postulated some ID criteria and put up something of an audiovisual tutorial with a little sound quiz at the end. I would love comments: www.earbirding.com/blog. Many thanks, Nathan Pieplow Boulder, CO Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Attwater Myiarchus Revisited From: Kevin Karlson <karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:48:46 +0000 Mary Beth and all: re: Myiarchus flycatcher from Texas After reading Brush's comment on the Myiarchus flycatcher from Attwater PCNWR, I was concerned about my ID of this bird as an Ash-throated Flycatcher based on the tail pattern. While the tail pattern seemed to fit fine for a late season spring Ash-throated, with muted dark tear-drop pattern extending from the narrow dark outer web across the tail tips, I don't feel comfortable basing an ID on one plumage feature. Brown-crested has a fair amount of orange color to the inner webs, but it extends in a straight line from the base of the tail to the tip, with no dark shading across the tail tip. I had put together a composite photo of four Myiarchus flycatchers for my new book, and thought that the feet on the Texas bird looked too big for Ash-throated, since Brown-crests have huge feet compared to other Myiarchus (see photo composite). I then went to my composite photo and added the Texas bird to it (although not sized to scale like the other images). After doing this, I noticed that the feet were not that big, and in fact were in range with Ash-throated and not Brown-crested. I also compared the pale whitish throat and upper breast to the typical gray throat and upper breast on Brown-crested, and thought that the Texas bird had a pale whitish throat and upper breast more typical of Ash-throated as well. As for the comment that the bird was too yellow underneath, this is not the case. Ash-throated can show very strong pale yellow coloration to the underparts, with Brown-crested a bit deeper in tone and with a clearer cut line between a grayer breast and yellow belly. The Texas bird seems to have a pale yellow belly, and the defining line is indistinct between the yellow color and whitish gray upper breast, more typical of Ash-throated. The bill is hard to judge, but it looks fine for the length of Ash-throat, with Brown-crested having a longer bill. The depth of the bill is hard to compare with Ash-throated because my photo of a fresh fall bird (2nd from right) has its bill angled slightly and depth cannot be judged. The tail length also looks better for Ash-throated, with a shorter, more proportional appearance compared to the longer tail of Brown-crested. The grayer coloration to the face in comparison to my photo is a result of very warm light on my bird, and these colors are hard to use with photos due to variability of lighting conditions and photo preparation by the observer. The composite photo may be accessed at the following link: http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Myiarchus+flycatcher+photo/  . The bird on the right is a LaSagra's Flycatcher. I did not include Dusky-capped because they have dark undertail patterns. Great-crested is 2nd from the left, with the Texas bird the left bird. These Myiarchus flycatchers are hard to judge from a single photo, with field observation and careful notes the best strategy for a solid ID. However, the comparison with other Myiarchus flycatchers in my composite photo seem to point towards Ash-thoated. I welcome comments from observers more experienced with Brown-crested, since this is a species that I feel lacking in field experience. Kevin Karlson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Beth Stowe" To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 11:43:15 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [BIRDWG01] Attwater Myiarchus Revisited Hi, all!  Since there were no pro-Brown-crested Flycatcher posts on this forum, I'm forwarding this message from fellow Texbirder Brush Freeman, who isn't on the ID Frontiers listserv.  Apparently there are other pro-Brown-crested folks out there; I'd like to hear their opinions!  Here's the link to the first photo again, and then you can scroll forward: http://www.pbase.com/miriameaglemon/image/111811706 Thanks!  Take care, MB Mary Beth Stowe McAllen, TX www.miriameaglemon.com Hi Mary Beth:  I know it is a long time ago, but I keep forgetting.  Your flycatcher at Attwater PCNWR is actually a BCFL, I thought it was at the time but Karlson seemed so sure of it, but I have since checked the tail on a dozen or so and there is nothing wrong with the tail on yours.  The bill is also too large and the animal is too yellow below.  I think with a side by side image of this and a good ATFL these things would stick out well. Brush Freeman . Discover the variety of Bisquick® mix. Get Recipes & Savings Now. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html