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4 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Shaibal Mitra ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [James Pawlicki ] 3 Feb Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes [David Sibley ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Alvaro Jaramillo ] 4 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN ["Tangren, Gerald Vernon" ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Shaibal Mitra ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Amar_Ayyash ] 3 Feb Herring gulls ["Anthony J.Lauro" ] 3 Feb Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes ["Kevin J. McGowan" ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [James Pawlicki ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Jean Iron ] 3 Feb Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes [Wayne Hoffman ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Shaibal Mitra ] 3 Feb Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Jean Iron ] 3 Feb Oriole in Wisconsin, July 2011 [Ryan Brady ] 2 Feb Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes [dave brown ] 2 Feb Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes [Amar_Ayyash ] 2 Feb Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes [Karl Bardon ] 31 Jan Alameda Co., CA -- pale Slaty-backed Gull or dark Vega Gull? [Lori Arthur ] 31 Jan Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes. [Kevin McLaughlin ] 30 Jan Slaty-backed Gulls with dark eyes [Alvaro Jaramillo ] 30 Jan Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? [Peter Pyle ] 30 Jan Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? [Bruce Mactavish ] 30 Jan Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes. [Alvaro Jaramillo ] 29 Jan Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? [Amar Ayyash ] 29 Jan Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? [Kevin McLaughlin ] 28 Jan Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? [Bruce Mactavish ] 28 Jan Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? [Norman Deans van Swelm ] 28 Jan Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? [Louis Bevier ] 28 Jan Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? ["Kevin J. McGowan" ] 28 Jan Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? [Jean Iron ] 28 Jan Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? [Jean Iron ] 28 Jan Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? [Bruce Mactavish ] 28 Jan Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? [Suzanne Sullivan ] 28 Jan Re: Interesting Gull in San Francisco, California [Alvaro Jaramillo ] 27 Jan Interesting Gull in San Francisco, California [Logan Kahle ] 27 Jan Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? [Tom Johnson ] 27 Jan Nelson's or Herring Gull? [Alvaro Jaramillo ] 27 Jan Smaller dark-backed gull in WI [Jym Mooney & Carol Lee Hopkins ] 27 Jan Re: Pale-tailed Herring Gull [Peter Adriaens ] 27 Jan Re: Pale-tailed Herring Gull [Steve Hampton ] 27 Jan Re: Pale-tailed Herring Gull [David Sibley ] 27 Jan Re: Pale-tailed Herring Gull [Martin Reid ] 26 Jan Re: Pale-tailed Herring Gull [dave brown ] 26 Jan Pale-tailed Herring Gull ["Kevin J. McGowan" ] 26 Jan Re: thayeri-kumlieni-glaucoides scale [Amar Ayyash ] 26 Jan thayeri-kumlieni-glaucoides scale [Steve Hampton ] 25 Jan Re: Field identification of Cassiar/Slate-colored/Oregon/Pink-sided Juncos [Paul Hurtado ] 24 Jan Re: An Oriole to ponder ["Lethaby, Nick" ] 23 Jan A tentative field mark for separating Pacific/Winter Wren [Chuck Sexton ] 23 Jan RFI: Recordings of non-territorial calls of Winter and Pacific Wren [Chuck Sexton ] 23 Jan Re: An Oriole to ponder [Jay K ] 24 Jan An Oriole to ponder [David Irons ] 22 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [Alvaro Jaramillo ] 22 Jan Re: Listowner message [Vincent P Lucas ] 22 Jan Listowner message [Will Russell ] 22 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [] 22 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird [David Roemer ] 22 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird [Patrick Santinello ] 22 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird [Patrick Santinello ] 22 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [Patrick Santinello ] 22 Jan Rusty Blackbird [Kevin Karlson ] 22 Jan Re: link to additional photo of Rusy Blackbird/Boat-tailed Grackle from ENP, FL. [Kevin Karlson ] 21 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [Rob Parsons ] 21 Jan link to additional photo of Rusy Blackbird/Boat-tailed Grackle from ENP, FL. [Brian Ahern ] 21 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [John Sterling ] 21 Jan Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [Michael Richardson ] 22 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [Kevin Karlson ] 21 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [Kevin McLaughlin ] 21 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [Kevin Karlson ] 21 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [Peter Pyle ] 21 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [Kevin Karlson ] 21 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [Kevin Karlson ] 20 Jan Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [Vincent P Lucas ] 19 Jan Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? [Vincent P Lucas ] 19 Jan Re: Field identification of Cassiar/Slate-colored/Oregon/Pink-sided Juncos [Paul Hurtado ] Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Shaibal Mitra <Shaibal.Mitra AT CSI.CUNY.EDU> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 02:34:47 +0000 Alvaro and all, I chose this example for this very reason: the apparent intermediacy of nigrifrons is not attributable to gene flow between auduboni and goldmani. Similarly, the apparent intermediacy of kumlieni should not be assumed to be a consequence of gene flow between thayeri and glaucoides. Shai ________________________________________ From: Alvaro Jaramillo [chucao AT coastside.net] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 7:30 PM To: Shaibal Mitra; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN Shai, Nothing to do with your argument, which I am enjoying reading. However the Yellow-rumped complex is complex! It turns out that the data suggests that Audubon's may in fact be a lineage coming from hybrid origin (Myrtle x one of the southern forms or an earlier version of the southern forms). Currently Audubon's is genetically closer to Myrtle than either is to nigrifrons or Goldman's, perhaps due to more recent introgression? So although the exterior look of Goldman's and nigrifrons is more Audubon's like; Audubon's is more closely related to the different looking Myrtle. There are a couple of papers on this from the last few years - Borja Mila is the main author. Hopefully I did not mess up that story. Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:52 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN Both Ron and Jim make great points in favor of the view that the Duluth bird is a vagrant bird from a glaucoides population, as opposed to a variant from a kumlieni population, and Amar states the operational considerations very nicely. I'm not sure that this bird is a glaucoides, but my point was not to argue that is isn't. Nor was my point to argue that subspecies can't be identified in the field; I believe that this is often possible, as long as it is done within the appropriate conceptual and quantitative framework. Both Ron and Jim know more about the latter for Iceland Gulls than I do, and it might be quite obvious to them that individuals resembling the Duluth bird occur so infrequently among Canadian breeders that vagrancy is a more reasonable interpretation for them. The point of my original post was quite different, namely to warn against typological conceptions of taxa. Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls that happen to be pale are not necessarily more related (demographically or genetically) to Greenland breeders, and Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls that happen to be dark are not necessarily more related (demographically or genetically) to Thayer's Gulls. Hybridization/introgression/gene flow is one possible interpretation of the variability among Kumlien's Gulls, but it is not the only one. To my knowledge, the role of gene flow, as opposed to, for instance, natural selection, has not been established here by any empirical studies, Snell's work included. It is true that there are examples of continua that can be shown to have been caused by gene flow (e.g., "Olympic Gull"), but there are also innumerable examples that are clearly caused by natural selection (e.g., north-south series of parulid warblers, like Northern Parula to nigrilora Tropical Parula to pacifica Tropical Parula, or graciae Grace's Warbler to decora Grace's Warbler to Adelaide's Warbler, or auduboni Audubon's Warbler to nigrifrons Audubon's Warbler to Goldman's Warbler). My claim that kumlieni is thought to refer to a cohesive group of populations is based on the fact that it is a named subspecies. In situations where known hybrid populations (e.g., "Olympic Gull") demonstrably do NOT cohere to one another any more than they do to those of the hybridizing taxa (e.g., Glaucous-winged Gull and Western Gull), these hybrids are not named as taxa. Furthermore, I think that the existence of Greenland-breeding glaucoides with pigmented wingtips and other variant features actually illustrates this point rather well. It shows that individuals of this appearance that might be seen in Iceland in winter should NOT reflexively be identified as kumlieni. The existence of these variants implies that, at least in theory, natural selection and/or genetic drift could reshape Greenland breeders toward a dark-mantled, dark-eyed, dark-wingtipped phenotype at some point in the future. If this were to happen, these birds would NOT be Thayer's Gulls! Shai Mitra Bay Shore ________________________________ Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html ________________________________ Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: James Pawlicki <jmpawli10 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:21:50 -0500 Amar- I guess part of my argument is fueled by popular thought that seems to sway heavily in favor of a higher confidence level in thayeri outside the core winter range vs. that of glaucoides. I think many would agree that thayeri are occurring in the Great Lakes and parts of E. North America with regular frequency (although band/satellite recoveries would certainly be nice...), and in the process, the species is confidently labeled as such in those parts even *knowing* the extreme variability in kumlieni, which can approach, and potentially be identical in appearance to thayeri. It would seem that this same confidence level is not the case with otherwise pure-looking glaucoides in E. North America/Great Lakes, and it is held to a higher standard. The obvious suspicion is that it is a result of thayeri being treated as a species, while kumlieni is treated as a subspecies next to glaucoides. I say this as I am sure everybody here would generally agree that in most cases, one can be more confident in a specific ID vs. subspecific ID. But at the same time, it would be reasonable to believe that kumlieni, being an extremely variable taxa showing physical traits falling between thayeri and glaucoides, was at one time the result of breeding between two distinct taxa known as thayeri and glaucoides, therefore forming the cline that Snell described. But relating this back to to field ID in parts dominated by kumlieni, I don’t see the case for the double standard on glaucoides at the pale/east end of the spectrum, which on the other hand seems to be lacking for thayeri at the dark/western end of the spectrum. Jim Pawlicki On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Amar_Ayyash wrote: > James and all - > > I was recently talking to a birder from New Jersey who serves on the > records committee there, and I was quite impressed by his requirements for > endorsing a probable nominate adult glaucoides. I'm sure records comittees > from differing states/provinces have their own expectations for this > taxon, but I would hope all were uncompromising. > > I don't have any problem with keeping open the possibility of a stray > glaucoides (I think it would be imprudent not to), but I also don't have a > problem with leaving them as "not safely distinguishable" unless certain > criteria are met. Hence, a "Kumlien's until proven otherwise" attitude > should indeed be the message we'd want to send for now. > > I imagine that discussions like this one can easily influence popular > thought among some birders and I think caution needs to be taken. I've > found several examples in the Great Lakes region where birding literature > is misguided and often gives the impression that Kumlien's is "the more > common" Iceland Gull, leaving folks with the impression that > it's "uncommon" to stumble upon a glaucoides, but still within reasonable > reach. One author went as far as saying, "Most Icelands seen in *state's > name deleted* are Kumlien's". Interestingly, that state has no verifiable > records of nominate glaucoides. > > > Kind regards, > Amar Ayyash > Frankfort, IL > > > > > On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:46:45 -0500, James Pawlicki > wrote: > >>All- >> >>A quick thought I would like to bring up regarding these “glaucoides” >>individuals (and adults strictly speaking) in NE N. America and the >>Great Lakes region: >> >>If these individuals showing a full (by full I mean “mini-Glaucous >>Gull”) suite of glaucoides traits are presumably occurring within the >>same colonies and even the same broods as birds showing mixed >>light/dark traits (ie. what we currently classify as kumlieni), then >>why the rarity of these full suite glaucoides in areas where numerous >>kumlieni winter. From an eastern Great Lakes/Niagara River >>perspective, we see small numbers of individuals that are full suite >>thayeri, many birds that are classified as pale thayeri/dark kumlieni, >>large numbers of typical (and variable) kumlieni, small numbers of >>pale (but still showing some mixed traits) kumlieni, and very, very >>rarely individuals that have an absolutely full suite of glaucoides >>traits like the Duluth bird. In my mind I see this rarity in itself as >>making a substantial case for vagrancy by glaucoides. >> >>Apart from the actual genetics involved and dealing only with >>populations, the big question in this case is how frequent are >>individuals showing a full suite of glaucoides traits in kumlieni >>breeding colonies? Are they common, rare, or extremely rare?  Until >>that question can be answered with some degree of confidence, I see no >>reason why these individuals should be viewed exclusively as “kumlieni >>until proven otherwise.” >> >>Jim Pawlicki >>Buffalo, NY USA >> >> >> >>On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Shaibal Mitra >> wrote: >>> >>> This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and attractive!) > but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and taxonomy > involved >>> >>> Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic ones- > -but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose > members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. >>> >>> Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in > Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. That > is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing > individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and populations > breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and populations of Thayer's > Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, there is likely to be > considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, bill size, etc.--even > within a brood of siblings whose parents, grandparents, and great > grandparents all lived and died as run of the mill kumlieni. Clearly, a > lightly pigmented individual of this sort is in no way more RELATED to > glaucoides than is its more heavily pigmented sibling, nor is the darker > bird somehow related to thayeri. These individuals might be more or less > difficult to DISTINGUISH from individuals of those other taxa, but they > are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. >>> >>> If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, and if > one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds from > Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an example of > glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible to distinguish > (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in relation to > Thayer's Gull. >>> >>> This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually useful > for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and identification. > Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill Canadian- > breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters such as > pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these populations, via > natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) happen > without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., > thayeri or glaucoides). >>> >>> Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for > vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual > variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or > multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously > quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in Canadian- > breeding populations. >>> >>> Shai Mitra >>> Bay Shore, NY >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification > [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron > [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] >>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM >>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN >>> >>> There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides >>> (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many >>> individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight >>> pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to > my >>> mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link >>> below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for > nominate >>> glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination > of >>> immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous-like >>> mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This > bird >>> is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. >>> >>> See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct > link >>> to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. >>> www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 >>> >>> There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a >>> specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. >>> http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf >>> >>> I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer >>> reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The BNA >>> series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every > penny: >>> http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna >>> >>> Ron Pittaway, >>> Minden, Ontario >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in > effect. >>> Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. >>> >>> >>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? > SUBED1=birdwg01 >>> >>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >> >> >>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? > SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>======================================================================== > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes From: David Sibley <david_sibley AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 20:18:57 -0500 After reading the discussion about geographic variation in adult Herring Gulls, and seeing only a couple of mentions of variation in immatures, I took the time to go back to some of my notes and photos from Cape May in the late 1990s. Looking at relatively small numbers of first-winter Herring Gulls there I was able to distinguish a very elegant-looking, pale, neatly patterned type that held juvenal plumage well into the winter. I was convinced that these were from a different population, since they were quite distinctive in plumage, shape, and molt, and only appeared late in the fall and in the coldest months, in very small numbers. I was never able to follow up on this adequately, so I can't add any more to what I observed 14 years ago, but I've scanned the best examples from my photos and written about it at my blog here http://www.sibleyguides.com/2012/02/variation-in-immature-american-herring-gulls/ Looking for these two types at other places around the northeast and across the continent should reveal some interesting patterns. As others have made clear there is still a lot to learn about Herring Gulls. David Sibley Concord, MA sibleyguides AT gmail.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 16:30:50 -0800 Shai, Nothing to do with your argument, which I am enjoying reading. However the Yellow-rumped complex is complex! It turns out that the data suggests that Audubon's may in fact be a lineage coming from hybrid origin (Myrtle x one of the southern forms or an earlier version of the southern forms). Currently Audubon's is genetically closer to Myrtle than either is to nigrifrons or Goldman's, perhaps due to more recent introgression? So although the exterior look of Goldman's and nigrifrons is more Audubon's like; Audubon's is more closely related to the different looking Myrtle. There are a couple of papers on this from the last few years - Borja Mila is the main author. Hopefully I did not mess up that story. Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:52 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN Both Ron and Jim make great points in favor of the view that the Duluth bird is a vagrant bird from a glaucoides population, as opposed to a variant from a kumlieni population, and Amar states the operational considerations very nicely. I'm not sure that this bird is a glaucoides, but my point was not to argue that is isn't. Nor was my point to argue that subspecies can't be identified in the field; I believe that this is often possible, as long as it is done within the appropriate conceptual and quantitative framework. Both Ron and Jim know more about the latter for Iceland Gulls than I do, and it might be quite obvious to them that individuals resembling the Duluth bird occur so infrequently among Canadian breeders that vagrancy is a more reasonable interpretation for them. The point of my original post was quite different, namely to warn against typological conceptions of taxa. Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls that happen to be pale are not necessarily more related (demographically or genetically) to Greenland breeders, and Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls that happen to be dark are not necessarily more related (demographically or genetically) to Thayer's Gulls. Hybridization/introgression/gene flow is one possible interpretation of the variability among Kumlien's Gulls, but it is not the only one. To my knowledge, the role of gene flow, as opposed to, for instance, natural selection, has not been established here by any empirical studies, Snell's work included. It is true that there are examples of continua that can be shown to have been caused by gene flow (e.g., "Olympic Gull"), but there are also innumerable examples that are clearly caused by natural selection (e.g., north-south series of parulid warblers, like Northern Parula to nigrilora Tropical Parula to pacifica Tropical Parula, or graciae Grace's Warbler to decora Grace's Warbler to Adelaide's Warbler, or auduboni Audubon's Warbler to nigrifrons Audubon's Warbler to Goldman's Warbler). My claim that kumlieni is thought to refer to a cohesive group of populations is based on the fact that it is a named subspecies. In situations where known hybrid populations (e.g., "Olympic Gull") demonstrably do NOT cohere to one another any more than they do to those of the hybridizing taxa (e.g., Glaucous-winged Gull and Western Gull), these hybrids are not named as taxa. Furthermore, I think that the existence of Greenland-breeding glaucoides with pigmented wingtips and other variant features actually illustrates this point rather well. It shows that individuals of this appearance that might be seen in Iceland in winter should NOT reflexively be identified as kumlieni. The existence of these variants implies that, at least in theory, natural selection and/or genetic drift could reshape Greenland breeders toward a dark-mantled, dark-eyed, dark-wingtipped phenotype at some point in the future. If this were to happen, these birds would NOT be Thayer's Gulls! Shai Mitra Bay Shore ________________________________ Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: "Tangren, Gerald Vernon" <tangren AT WSU.EDU> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 00:10:10 +0000 Unless the whole complex is mediated by a very limited number of genes, which in the current case may very well be true. On 2/3/12 3:52 PM, "Shaibal Mitra" wrote: ... If this were to happen, these birds would NOT be Thayer's Gulls! > > Shai Mitra > Bay Shore > > ________________________________ > > Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in > effect. > Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html -- Jerry WA State University-Tree Fruit Research & Extension Center Wenatchee, WA 509-663-8181 x 231 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6b (during the current phase of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation) http://www.tfrec.wsu.edu/pages/webdev/Favorites "May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view" Edward Abbey Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Shaibal Mitra <Shaibal.Mitra AT CSI.CUNY.EDU> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 23:52:19 +0000 Both Ron and Jim make great points in favor of the view that the Duluth bird is a vagrant bird from a glaucoides population, as opposed to a variant from a kumlieni population, and Amar states the operational considerations very nicely. I'm not sure that this bird is a glaucoides, but my point was not to argue that is isn't. Nor was my point to argue that subspecies can't be identified in the field; I believe that this is often possible, as long as it is done within the appropriate conceptual and quantitative framework. Both Ron and Jim know more about the latter for Iceland Gulls than I do, and it might be quite obvious to them that individuals resembling the Duluth bird occur so infrequently among Canadian breeders that vagrancy is a more reasonable interpretation for them. The point of my original post was quite different, namely to warn against typological conceptions of taxa. Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls that happen to be pale are not necessarily more related (demographically or genetically) to Greenland breeders, and Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls that happen to be dark are not necessarily more related (demographically or genetically) to Thayer's Gulls. Hybridization/introgression/gene flow is one possible interpretation of the variability among Kumlien's Gulls, but it is not the only one. To my knowledge, the role of gene flow, as opposed to, for instance, natural selection, has not been established here by any empirical studies, Snell's work included. It is true that there are examples of continua that can be shown to have been caused by gene flow (e.g., "Olympic Gull"), but there are also innumerable examples that are clearly caused by natural selection (e.g., north-south series of parulid warblers, like Northern Parula to nigrilora Tropical Parula to pacifica Tropical Parula, or graciae Grace's Warbler to decora Grace's Warbler to Adelaide's Warbler, or auduboni Audubon's Warbler to nigrifrons Audubon's Warbler to Goldman's Warbler). My claim that kumlieni is thought to refer to a cohesive group of populations is based on the fact that it is a named subspecies. In situations where known hybrid populations (e.g., "Olympic Gull") demonstrably do NOT cohere to one another any more than they do to those of the hybridizing taxa (e.g., Glaucous-winged Gull and Western Gull), these hybrids are not named as taxa. Furthermore, I think that the existence of Greenland-breeding glaucoides with pigmented wingtips and other variant features actually illustrates this point rather well. It shows that individuals of this appearance that might be seen in Iceland in winter should NOT reflexively be identified as kumlieni. The existence of these variants implies that, at least in theory, natural selection and/or genetic drift could reshape Greenland breeders toward a dark-mantled, dark-eyed, dark-wingtipped phenotype at some point in the future. If this were to happen, these birds would NOT be Thayer's Gulls! Shai Mitra Bay Shore ________________________________ Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Amar_Ayyash <amarayyash AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 16:41:32 -0700 James and all - I was recently talking to a birder from New Jersey who serves on the records committee there, and I was quite impressed by his requirements for endorsing a probable nominate adult glaucoides. I'm sure records comittees from differing states/provinces have their own expectations for this taxon, but I would hope all were uncompromising. I don't have any problem with keeping open the possibility of a stray glaucoides (I think it would be imprudent not to), but I also don't have a problem with leaving them as "not safely distinguishable" unless certain criteria are met. Hence, a "Kumlien's until proven otherwise" attitude should indeed be the message we'd want to send for now. I imagine that discussions like this one can easily influence popular thought among some birders and I think caution needs to be taken. I've found several examples in the Great Lakes region where birding literature is misguided and often gives the impression that Kumlien's is "the more common" Iceland Gull, leaving folks with the impression that it's "uncommon" to stumble upon a glaucoides, but still within reasonable reach. One author went as far as saying, "Most Icelands seen in *state's name deleted* are Kumlien's". Interestingly, that state has no verifiable records of nominate glaucoides. Kind regards, Amar Ayyash Frankfort, IL On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:46:45 -0500, James Pawlicki wrote: >All- > >A quick thought I would like to bring up regarding these “glaucoides” >individuals (and adults strictly speaking) in NE N. America and the >Great Lakes region: > >If these individuals showing a full (by full I mean “mini-Glaucous >Gull”) suite of glaucoides traits are presumably occurring within the >same colonies and even the same broods as birds showing mixed >light/dark traits (ie. what we currently classify as kumlieni), then >why the rarity of these full suite glaucoides in areas where numerous >kumlieni winter. From an eastern Great Lakes/Niagara River >perspective, we see small numbers of individuals that are full suite >thayeri, many birds that are classified as pale thayeri/dark kumlieni, >large numbers of typical (and variable) kumlieni, small numbers of >pale (but still showing some mixed traits) kumlieni, and very, very >rarely individuals that have an absolutely full suite of glaucoides >traits like the Duluth bird. In my mind I see this rarity in itself as >making a substantial case for vagrancy by glaucoides. > >Apart from the actual genetics involved and dealing only with >populations, the big question in this case is how frequent are >individuals showing a full suite of glaucoides traits in kumlieni >breeding colonies? Are they common, rare, or extremely rare?  Until >that question can be answered with some degree of confidence, I see no >reason why these individuals should be viewed exclusively as “kumlieni >until proven otherwise.” > >Jim Pawlicki >Buffalo, NY USA > > > >On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Shaibal Mitra > wrote: >> >> This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and attractive!) but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and taxonomy involved >> >> Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic ones- -but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. >> >> Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. That is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and populations breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and populations of Thayer's Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, there is likely to be considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, bill size, etc.--even within a brood of siblings whose parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all lived and died as run of the mill kumlieni. Clearly, a lightly pigmented individual of this sort is in no way more RELATED to glaucoides than is its more heavily pigmented sibling, nor is the darker bird somehow related to thayeri. These individuals might be more or less difficult to DISTINGUISH from individuals of those other taxa, but they are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. >> >> If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, and if one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds from Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an example of glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible to distinguish (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in relation to Thayer's Gull. >> >> This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually useful for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and identification. Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill Canadian- breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters such as pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these populations, via natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) happen without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., thayeri or glaucoides). >> >> Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in Canadian- breeding populations. >> >> Shai Mitra >> Bay Shore, NY >> ________________________________________ >> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] >> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM >> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN >> >> There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides >> (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many >> individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight >> pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to my >> mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link >> below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for nominate >> glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination of >> immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous-like >> mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This bird >> is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. >> >> See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct link >> to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. >> www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 >> >> There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a >> specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. >> http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf >> >> I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer >> reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The BNA >> series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every penny: >> http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna >> >> Ron Pittaway, >> Minden, Ontario >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. >> Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. >> >> >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >======================================================================== Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Herring gulls From: "Anthony J.Lauro" <tonpat AT OPTONLINE.NET> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 16:59:06 -0800 Jonathan Dwight is said to have stated: "They are all herring gulls". I never quite understood what he meant. Now I know. Tony Lauro Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2 AT CORNELL.EDU> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:22:46 +0000 I just looked at photos from a half-hour of gull watching this morning here in central New York, and found 40 of 68 adult Herring Gulls had an obvious mirror on P9. Kevin Kevin J. McGowan Ithaca, NY kjm2 AT cornell.edu 607-254-2452 -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Karl Bardon Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:41 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes ... Of 141 photos of adult Herring Gulls from Duluth, all but one had a complete subterminal bar on P10, only 24 had a mirror on P9 (usually small), and only 6 had the P9 mirror joined with the gray basal tongue- but the sample is heavily weighed towards paler patterns since I am much more likely to photograph an unusual wing pattern Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: James Pawlicki <jmpawli10 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:46:45 -0500 All- A quick thought I would like to bring up regarding these “glaucoides” individuals (and adults strictly speaking) in NE N. America and the Great Lakes region: If these individuals showing a full (by full I mean “mini-Glaucous Gull”) suite of glaucoides traits are presumably occurring within the same colonies and even the same broods as birds showing mixed light/dark traits (ie. what we currently classify as kumlieni), then why the rarity of these full suite glaucoides in areas where numerous kumlieni winter. From an eastern Great Lakes/Niagara River perspective, we see small numbers of individuals that are full suite thayeri, many birds that are classified as pale thayeri/dark kumlieni, large numbers of typical (and variable) kumlieni, small numbers of pale (but still showing some mixed traits) kumlieni, and very, very rarely individuals that have an absolutely full suite of glaucoides traits like the Duluth bird. In my mind I see this rarity in itself as making a substantial case for vagrancy by glaucoides. Apart from the actual genetics involved and dealing only with populations, the big question in this case is how frequent are individuals showing a full suite of glaucoides traits in kumlieni breeding colonies? Are they common, rare, or extremely rare?  Until that question can be answered with some degree of confidence, I see no reason why these individuals should be viewed exclusively as “kumlieni until proven otherwise.” Jim Pawlicki Buffalo, NY USA On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Shaibal Mitra wrote: > > This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and attractive!) but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and taxonomy involved > > Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic ones--but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. > > Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. That is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and populations breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and populations of Thayer's Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, there is likely to be considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, bill size, etc.--even within a brood of siblings whose parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all lived and died as run of the mill kumlieni. Clearly, a lightly pigmented individual of this sort is in no way more RELATED to glaucoides than is its more heavily pigmented sibling, nor is the darker bird somehow related to thayeri. These individuals might be more or less difficult to DISTINGUISH from individuals of those other taxa, but they are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. > > If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, and if one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds from Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an example of glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible to distinguish (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in relation to Thayer's Gull. > > This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually useful for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and identification. Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters such as pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these populations, via natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) happen without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., thayeri or glaucoides). > > Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in Canadian-breeding populations. > > Shai Mitra > Bay Shore, NY > ________________________________________ > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] > Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN > > There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides > (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many > individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight > pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to my > mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link > below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for nominate > glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination of > immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous-like > mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This bird > is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. > > See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct link > to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. > www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 > > There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a > specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. > http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf > > I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer > reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The BNA > series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every penny: > http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna > > Ron Pittaway, > Minden, Ontario > > > ________________________________ > > Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. > Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:45:06 -0500 Shai assumes that kumlieni is distinct which Snell and others reject. I also reject Shai's statement that "Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically." Who said this? Where is it published? Snell and Godfrey (1991) reported their findings at the AOU meeting in Montreal. They said: "Iceland Gulls (Larus glaucoides) form a poorly understood and taxonomically controversial species complex. We analysed patterns of geographic variation among 317 museum specimens of adults collected throughout the breeding range of Greenland to Banks Island in the western Canadian arctic archipelago. Although east-west clinal increases in degree of mantle melanism, primary feather melanism, primary pattern score, and bill size are significant, there is substantial overlap in all characters among geographic regions. There is no evidence that any of the three subspecies (L.g. glaucoides, L.g. kumlieni, and L.g. thayeri) are morphologically discrete. Type specimens of kumlieni and thayeri (the type of nominate glaucoides is not extant) are simply points within clinal continua, rather than exemplars of differentiated groups". Also, there are birds breeding in Greenland (defined as the range of glaucioides) with pigmentation in the wingtips. See Figure 3 on page 10 in BNA 699. Finally, there is a specimen of glaucoides from Ontario identified by Godfrey in the Canadian Museum of Nature confirming vagrancy. Greenland is very close to North America. To assume that individuals from the huge glaucoides population there don't venture to nearby North America seems strange when we on ID-Frontiers know that gulls from throughout the Holarctic wander extensively. If Shai wants to take his position, then forget about identifying any subspecies unless you're on the breeding grounds. If nominate glaucoides isn't identifiable, we shouldn't be identifying Thayer's Gulls in the East in winter. The point about subspecies ID is that many are recognizable with a high degree of confidence when multiple characters fit - such as the nominate glaucoides from Lake Superior. Ron Pittaway Minden ON -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 1:50 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and attractive!) but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and taxonomy involved Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic ones--but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. That is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and populations breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and populations of Thayer's Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, there is likely to be considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, bill size, etc.--even within a brood of siblings whose parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all lived and died as run of the mill kumlieni. Clearly, a lightly pigmented individual of this sort is in no way more RELATED to glaucoides than is its more heavily pigmented sibling, nor is the darker bird somehow related to thayeri. These individuals might be more or less difficult to DISTINGUISH from individuals of those other taxa, but they are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, and if one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds from Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an example of glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible to distinguish (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in relation to Thayer's Gull. This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually useful for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and identification. Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters such as pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these populations, via natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) happen without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., thayeri or glaucoides). Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in Canadian-breeding populations. Shai Mitra Bay Shore, NY ________________________________________ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to my mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for nominate glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination of immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous-like mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This bird is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct link to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The BNA series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every penny: http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna Ron Pittaway, Minden, Ontario ________________________________ Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes From: Wayne Hoffman <whoffman AT PEAK.ORG> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 11:52:51 -0800 Hi - This discussion of variation within American Herring Gulls is enlightening and needed. The message I see to take home from it is that among large gulls (and many other "difficult" bird groups) within-population variation overlaps the supposed between-population distinctions we use to identify vagrants. Back in the unenlightened old days when Herring Gulls were a circumpolar species with populations varying in eye colors, foot colors, mantle colors, etc., as a group they may have been more distinguishable from other groups of large gulls. These days, as we try to subdivide large gulls into more and more "species" and to recognize them as vagrants, we will run into more and more instances of individuals that have the external characters of one population but are in fact members of a different population. This discussion has been about ADULT Herring Gulls from the Great Lakes, Newfoundland, etc. With immatures, we also have to deal with within-population variation in molt timing and completeness, appearance changes resulting from differential wear, soft parts appearance anomalies related to hormonal condition and nutritional state, and so on, so the opportunities for individuals to mimic the appearance of birds from different populations or species are multiplied. Bottom Line: Some individual large gulls are not what they appear to be, and if we put names on all of them, we will sometimes be wrong. I personally get much less aggressive about trying to identify immature large gulls between January and July, because of the confounding effects of feather wear, and the frequent effects of compromised health in gulls attempting to live outside their normal range. This issue is well-known for other groups of animals. Back in the 1970s, when I first learned to identify western salamanders, the then-recognized species were pretty much recognizable by morphology. Since then, several of these "species" have been recognized to be 2 or more species very difficult to distinguish without direct examination of DNA. This is the case with Rhyacotriton, Dicamptodon, Aneides "ferreus", Batrachoceps, etc. In the east the "Slimy Salamander" used to an easily identifiable species, Plethodon "glutinosus." Now it is understood to be a swarm of cryptic species, generally not distinguishable by external characters. Similar things have happened among some western squirrels. "Townsend's Chipmunk" as i learned it, is now a several species, and "Townsend's Ground Squirrel" is a cluster of species that field guides offer no suggestions for field identification other than range. In this last case, the older techniques for looking at the genetics suffice: the ground squirrel species can be distinguished by karyotyping - you don't actually have to sequence the DNA! In these amphibian and mammal examples, most of the newly recognized cryptic species have allopatric or parapatric distributions, but of course that clue is not very useful for distinguishing wintering gulls, basically only helpful for setting null hypotheses. Wayne Hoffman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amar_Ayyash" To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 12:28:26 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes Karl- It's interesting to get a Lake Superior perspective on what adult Herrings look like there. Sounds very similar to southern Lake Michigan. One thing I've started to do with Herrings that show a mirror on P9 is look at the underside of the primaries. Is it possible that we're overlooking birds with tongues that bleed into the mirror on P9 because of the way the primaries are held? That is, for any given point in time, the inner web of P9 may be covered sufficiently enough by P8 to where we don't see this pattern (take your photos for instance - some show the Thayer's-like inner web on P9 and some don't). I think a simple remedy is to study the underside of the primary tips on birds exhibiting a mirror on P9. As for the adult Iceland with no pigmentation to the wingtips, you'd think that's about as good as it gets. But. Birders on Lake Michigan have set such a high standard that we would leave that bird a Kumlien's without direct side-by-sides with a Glaucous or multiple Kumlien's. Check out Dave Brown's latest blog post on this topic if you haven't already: http://birdingnewfoundland.blogspot.com/2011/12/some-thoughts-on- separation-of-white.html Does anyone else get the impression that the 1st cycle Herring has some LBBG influence? Thanks, Amar Ayyash Frankfort, Illinois Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Shaibal Mitra <Shaibal.Mitra AT CSI.CUNY.EDU> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 18:49:38 +0000 This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and attractive!) but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and taxonomy involved Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic ones--but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. That is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and populations breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and populations of Thayer's Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, there is likely to be considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, bill size, etc.--even within a brood of siblings whose parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all lived and died as run of the mill kumlieni. Clearly, a lightly pigmented individual of this sort is in no way more RELATED to glaucoides than is its more heavily pigmented sibling, nor is the darker bird somehow related to thayeri. These individuals might be more or less difficult to DISTINGUISH from individuals of those other taxa, but they are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, and if one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds from Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an example of glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible to distinguish (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in relation to Thayer's Gull. This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually useful for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and identification. Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters such as pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these populations, via natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) happen without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., thayeri or glaucoides). Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in Canadian-breeding populations. Shai Mitra Bay Shore, NY ________________________________________ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to my mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for nominate glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination of immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous-like mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This bird is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct link to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The BNA series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every penny: http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna Ron Pittaway, Minden, Ontario ________________________________ Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:25:33 -0500 There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to my mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for nominate glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination of immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous-like mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This bird is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct link to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The BNA series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every penny: http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna Ron Pittaway, Minden, Ontario -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Karl Bardon Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:41 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes I recently photographed two adult Herring Gulls with reduced black in the outer primaries, especially ventrally, including a Thayer's-like pattern on P9 (gray tongue joins the white mirror on inner vane), but these two examples are not as extreme as the "northern" or Newfoundland type examples recently posted from Florida, Massachusetts, Chicago, or New York (for example, P10 has a complete subterminal bar on my two birds). Any Herring Gull with primaries paler than this would be exceptional here in Duluth. Of 141 photos of adult Herring Gulls from Duluth, all but one had a complete subterminal bar on P10, only 24 had a mirror on P9 (usually small), and only 6 had the P9 mirror joined with the gray basal tongue- but the sample is heavily weighed towards paler patterns since I am much more likely to photograph an unusual wing pattern- I would say paler Thayer's-like patterns are less than 1/1000 Herring Gulls here, but it's difficult to say whether these represent Northeastern types or just variation within Great Lakes birds (or even multiple generation backcross with Glaucous Gull or some other taxa). See http://www.pbase.com/karlbardon/herg_adult_reduced_primary_pattern I also photographed a first-cycle Herring Gull with a reduced tail pattern similar to the one recently posted from New York- I occasionally see first- cycle birds like this with tail bands more similar to Vega or European Herring Gulls, and have thought perhaps this is variation within pure smithsonianus, but in this case I am not sure how to rule out Vega. See http://www.pbase.com/karlbardon/herg_with_reduced_tail_band Finally, a recently well-photographed adult Iceland in Duluth appeared to be a nominate glaucoides- I realize subspecific identification may not be possible, but thought I would share nonetheless, since I have never seen such a classic potential for glaucoides around here. See www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 under Iceland Gull, adult #one Comments on these birds are most welcome, Karl Bardon Duluth, MN Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Oriole in Wisconsin, July 2011 From: Ryan Brady <ryanbrady10 AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 09:37:17 -0700 This oriole was seen in southwest Wisconsin in July 2011. Orchard is obviously the expected species here but your comments in favor of that or another identification would be appreciated. Some backchannel inquiries have thus far produced mixed expert opinions. We're working on acquiring some other photos but this is the only one for now. http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/image/141272323 The original observer emailed the following: "The bird in the attached picture showed up at oriole feeding station during July 2011 drawn to orange marmelade. Stayed for about 3 weeks. Sightings were almost daily but the bird was typically by itself and appeared shy to both humans and other orioles. Bird appeared during the time last year when the Southwest US was experiencing wildfires, high winds and severe weather. At first, I thought it might be a juvenile male orchard oriole. However, the tail was black, the bill slightly curved, and the black chin markings were more pronounced and similar to a Hooded Oriole. None of the other orioles that we had been observing last summer, both Baltimore and Orchard, had any of the similar features or the bright yellow coloring." Ryan Brady Washburn, Bayfield County, WI http://www.pbase.com/rbrady Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes From: dave brown <dave.browne AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 18:25:42 -0330 I'd certainly be intrigued if I saw this Iceland Gull in Newfoundland. The pure white primaries,combined with the lack of head streaking and unmarked iris would make the bird stand out. While it hard to get a handle on the mantle shade without comparison with other species, but this does have a pale look about it. One thing I've noticed from looking at photos of nominate glaucoides and a few individuals from here in Newfoundland is the apparent lack of contrast between the pale grey in the folded primaries, against the white wings and tertial skirt. Even the whitest winged Kumliens look more contrasty in this area because of the darker grey in the primaries (being very close to smithsonianus Herring Gull). Kumliens varies greatly in structure, as does glaucoides from what I can see, but we generally think of nominate glaucoides as being daintier looking with shorter bills and rounder heads, and this bird certainly has that look. The issue is, its probably possible for Kumliens to show completely white primary tips. Usually there will be a variable amount of grey visible on the outer web of p10 in the palest birds. Sometimes this can be so faint that it's not even visible in the field, so one has to be careful. This birds primary tips though, do appear to be pure white. The mantle shade is important. I don't know much about the variation in nominate glaucoides, but I can say that Kumliens are generally not that variable, with the vast majority of individuals being slightly paler than smithsonianus. Lately I'm noticing that there might be some that are very marginally darker or paler. If this birds mantle was in fact as pale as GLGU, that, in concert with the other features, such as the unmarked iris, pure white wing tips and overall dainty feel would build a strong case nominate glaucoides. While it might be possible for a Kumliens Gull to show one or two of these features,it would be very unlikely to have them all in the same individual. However, as Amar said, I'd want to see it next to a Kumliens or Herring Gull before I felt like making any definitive assertions. Cheers, Dave Brown Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes From: Amar_Ayyash <amarayyash AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 13:28:26 -0700 Karl- It's interesting to get a Lake Superior perspective on what adult Herrings look like there. Sounds very similar to southern Lake Michigan. One thing I've started to do with Herrings that show a mirror on P9 is look at the underside of the primaries. Is it possible that we're overlooking birds with tongues that bleed into the mirror on P9 because of the way the primaries are held? That is, for any given point in time, the inner web of P9 may be covered sufficiently enough by P8 to where we don't see this pattern (take your photos for instance - some show the Thayer's-like inner web on P9 and some don't). I think a simple remedy is to study the underside of the primary tips on birds exhibiting a mirror on P9. As for the adult Iceland with no pigmentation to the wingtips, you'd think that's about as good as it gets. But. Birders on Lake Michigan have set such a high standard that we would leave that bird a Kumlien's without direct side-by-sides with a Glaucous or multiple Kumlien's. Check out Dave Brown's latest blog post on this topic if you haven't already: http://birdingnewfoundland.blogspot.com/2011/12/some-thoughts-on- separation-of-white.html Does anyone else get the impression that the 1st cycle Herring has some LBBG influence? Thanks, Amar Ayyash Frankfort, Illinois Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes From: Karl Bardon <karl_bardon AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:41:07 -0700 I recently photographed two adult Herring Gulls with reduced black in the outer primaries, especially ventrally, including a Thayer’s-like pattern on P9 (gray tongue joins the white mirror on inner vane), but these two examples are not as extreme as the “northern” or Newfoundland type examples recently posted from Florida, Massachusetts, Chicago, or New York (for example, P10 has a complete subterminal bar on my two birds). Any Herring Gull with primaries paler than this would be exceptional here in Duluth. Of 141 photos of adult Herring Gulls from Duluth, all but one had a complete subterminal bar on P10, only 24 had a mirror on P9 (usually small), and only 6 had the P9 mirror joined with the gray basal tongue- but the sample is heavily weighed towards paler patterns since I am much more likely to photograph an unusual wing pattern- I would say paler Thayer’s-like patterns are less than 1/1000 Herring Gulls here, but it’s difficult to say whether these represent Northeastern types or just variation within Great Lakes birds (or even multiple generation backcross with Glaucous Gull or some other taxa). See http://www.pbase.com/karlbardon/herg_adult_reduced_primary_pattern I also photographed a first-cycle Herring Gull with a reduced tail pattern similar to the one recently posted from New York- I occasionally see first- cycle birds like this with tail bands more similar to Vega or European Herring Gulls, and have thought perhaps this is variation within pure smithsonianus, but in this case I am not sure how to rule out Vega. See http://www.pbase.com/karlbardon/herg_with_reduced_tail_band Finally, a recently well-photographed adult Iceland in Duluth appeared to be a nominate glaucoides- I realize subspecific identification may not be possible, but thought I would share nonetheless, since I have never seen such a classic potential for glaucoides around here. See www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 under Iceland Gull, adult #one Comments on these birds are most welcome, Karl Bardon Duluth, MN Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Alameda Co., CA -- pale Slaty-backed Gull or dark Vega Gull? From: Lori Arthur <loriarthur61 AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:17:39 -0800 Hi. I'm Noah Arthur, a teenage larophile from Oakland, California, and I photographed a possible Slaty-backed/Vega type gull at Pacific Commons Park in Alameda Co., CA yesterday:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157629106017191/   I watched it at fairly close range through my scope while it bathed for about 5 minutes on a pond in the park. It was a large, dark-backed gull with a streaky head, staring pale eye, and bright reddish-pink orbital ring, suggesting Slaty-backed. In flight, it showed some pale tongue-tips on the primaries, similar to photo 25C.13 (Vega Gull) in Howell and Dunn's gull book. Unfortunately for Slaty-backed, the mantle looks too pale. It seemed to be only a little darker than surrounding Glaucous-winged Gulls and closely matched a Glaucous-winged/Western hybrid. At first, Vega Gull seemed like a possible alternative, but it looks a little too dark for a Vega. I'm confused by this one.   It has been suggested that this could be a Slaty-backed/Vega hybrid, but that seems unlikely in California. Another possiblity I'm considering is an unusual Glaucous-winged/Western hybrid, but I don't think that either G-winged or Western can have a bright reddish orbital ring. Or can they?   Pacific Commons Park in Fremont, Alameda Co., CA is located next to a landfill, and thousands of gulls bathe on the park's pond every day. The pond has produce rarities in the past: a Slaty-backed and a Lesser Black-backed were seen there last November.   Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes. From: Kevin McLaughlin <kam50 AT SHAW.CA> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:41:08 -0500 I thought I would enlarge upon what Alvaro is pointing out regarding first calendar year Herring Gulls of the Great Lakes population versus later arriving young birds of northern origin. It is absolutely true that juvenile Herring Gulls, presumably hatched in southern Ontario, are well into first prebasic molt by September and are acquiring many fresh, generally anchor-shaped patterned scapulars. The heads are beginning to acquire some white feathering and the secondary coverts and tertials are starting to show traces of wear. The first northern juveniles arrive in southern Ontario sometime in the first half of October. An exceptionally early bird was at the tip of Point Pelee National Park on September 17, 2011. These birds stand out from first calendar year southern Herrings by their smooth, dark grayish brown head and body plumage, along with sharply white-fringed scapulars. The tertials normally have a pair of white edge-spots or "half-moons" on the lower edge of each feather. The lesser and median secondary coverts are sharply white-fringed, and the greaters have two or three white notches of variable size along the exposed margins. In sum, the plumage is totally pristine in its makeup. These northern juveniles mingle with southern Herrings and show an increase in numbers through the fall and into early winter. They are always the minority in any grouping of birds. They slowly begin to molt into first basic plumage over the next few months. However, as with several other northern species (Glaucous, Iceland, Thayer's and Lesser Black-backed), some birds retain a variable amount of juvenal feathering, especially scapulars, into the New Year. Yesterday, January 30, a small group of western New York and southern Ontario gull watchers found an apparently intact juvenile northern Herring Gull along the Niagara River. The specific location was the breakwall paralleling the shoreline below the control gates at Chippawa. The gull was sleeping on its belly so we could only see the sides of the head and underparts along with the left side of the upperparts. The scapulars, coverts and tertials consisted entirely of fresh appearing juvenal feathers. It was difficult to see any palpable sign of wear or indeed any first basic scapulars incoming. The head and body seemed rather unaffected by wear and/or molt as well and were a smooth dark gray-brown in appearance. Kevin McLaughlin Hamilton, Ontario. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" To: Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 12:35 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes. > Folks > > I will use this opening to the subject by Kevin here to mention that > Great Lakes Herring Gulls are the one population in North America that > behaves as a distinctive subunit of the Herring Gull. There are lots and > lots of banding returns of Great Lakes breeders, so good data. These may > leave the Great Lakes as immatures, reaching south to the Gulf Coast when > they do so. However, once adults Great Lakes Herring Gulls are residents, > they do not leave the Great Lakes. As it is unlikely that coastal Herrings > will dip into the Great Lakes in any substantial numbers, the Great Lakes > are a great place to begin trying to determine differences between the > northern migrant and the resident Great Lakes Gulls. The distinction is > not > perfect as there are Herring Gulls breeding commonly but in low densities > on > small lakes in the Canadian Shield country and it stands to reason that > these may be closer in behavior and migration type to the Great Lakes > gulls. > Who knows where the transition to full migration begins as one heads north > from the lakes. Furthermore molt begins very early in Great Lakes > Herrings, > even the young birds. By September most first cycle birds already have a > lot > of molt in the upperparts, these are strikingly different from the > unmolted > juveniles that reach the area later on in the winter from point farther > north. > > In Florida there is a similar dichotomy, most first cycle birds are worn > and > have entirely second generations mantles; while there are fresher looking > birds with nearly fully juvenile plumage. I assume that this is a south - > north dichotomy here too. In California overall the Herring Gulls are not > as > worn and molted as the average Florida Herring Gull. > > Alvaro Jaramillo > alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com > www.alvarosadventures.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification > [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Kevin McLaughlin > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:23 AM > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? > > The Jonsson-Mactavish article referenced by Louis, is the key approach > that > I am aware of, to separating adults of the "Newfoundland"(American) > Herring > Gull from the "Niagara" type. > > In winter, at the western end of Lake Ontario and along the Niagara River, > the Niagara ("Southern") type is greatly in the majority of adult Herring > Gulls studied from year to year. Some Newfoundland or, as I call them, > "Northern" birds, arrive in November at Niagara and stay for the winter. > Of > the birds that I and others have closely examined there this season, > perhaps > > one to five percent were adult Northerns. Interestingly, I have found > historically that the numbers of Northerns may be somewhat higher west of > the Niagara River, in Hamilton Harbour. To illustrate, there were about 30 > adult Herring Gulls milling about the channel of the ship canal at the > entrance to Hamilton Harbour this past Thursday January 26. Twelve to > fifteen were of the Newfoundland (Northern) type. However, as this is just > one sample, much needs to be done in a quantitative sense, involving these > two types in winter here. > > One interesting note pertaining to these birds in January involves a > particular difference between northern birds and the southern adults which > breed in Hamilton Harbour. Many birds of both types mingle when feeding in > the ship canal. Not surprisingly, many of the presumably local southern > nesting birds are nearing full definitive alternate plumage by now, with > brightening bare parts and white heads and necks. The wintering northern > birds however, are in the main, still in basic plumage, possessing much > blotchy streaking on the head, hindneck and breast sides and relatively > dull > > yellow bills. All manner of variation exists of course, but we have in > this > a viable, albeit fleeting, means of separation. > > Kevin McLaughlin > Hamilton, Ontario. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Louis Bevier" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 10:16 AM > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? > > >>I have seen Herring Gulls with this pattern over the years from my >> time in Connecticut and Philadelphia, where I recall seeing only a few >> (total) on gull collecting trips to the Tullytown landfill with Sally >> Conyne. They seem more frequent in Maine where I live now. I don't >> have precise percentages, but among a slightly less than a thousand >> gulls on recent landfill visits, only one per trip might be found; so >> seemingly an order of magnitude less frequent than reported by Tom and >> Kevin for the central New York area. >> >> This wingtip pattern is interesting, and Ron Pittaway's post shows >> that it may not be restricted to breeding birds from extreme northeast >> North America but perhaps more frequent there (and only in one sex?). >> The pattern was first well articulated by Lars Jonsson and Bruce >> Mactavish in 2001 (Birders Journal 10: 90-107), and maybe Bruce is too >> shy to link to his other work here >> (http://gull-research.org/smithsonianus/5cyjan.html). That Bruce says >> the pattern is in "some but not all" breeders in Newfoundland-Labrador >> is interesting, if this really were tied to geographic variation in a >> character. Hence, I'm not sure we should name all birds with this >> pattern as "Newfoundland" types. If it is only found on one sex that >> would contradict a specific geographic population too. One of the >> birds of this type that we saw recently in Maine (photographed by Luke >> Seitz) was a small female type (thayeri wingtip pattern but mantle >> like smithsonianus and with bright yellow irides). This bird also >> lacked a black bar on p5 like Alvaro's bird. >> >> It is interesting to me that this pattern of extensive white tip on >> p10 and limited black on the other primary tips is also found in >> "Herring" Gull populations at higher latitude, e.g. nominate >> argentatus (which otherwise has a darker gray mantle than >> smithsonianus). Dwight mentions the pattern and compares it across >> taxa (smithsonianus, vegae, argentatus, and thayeri) on page 191 of >> his 1925 monograph on gulls. He notes that he found it on specimens of >> smithsonianus. I wonder if this pattern is showing some influence from >> nominate argentatus into northeastern North America, perhaps >> ancestral? >> >> This pattern can be similar to presumed hybrid Glaucous x Herring >> hybrids. Here is one example I photographed in Maine recently: >> http://flic.kr/s/aHsjy4Pi4M >> >> Conveniently, a Herring Gull posed with it. This bird looks like a >> male based on the wedge-shaped head and large size. I judged it a >> hybrid because of the long-looking bill, broad body (wide body; >> compare to male Herring landing with it) and broad wings (breadth of >> wing front to back wider than Herring and more like Glaucous in that >> regard). >> >> One last word on use of "Nelson's" Gull as a name for this hybrid. The >> type of "Larus nelsoni" Henshaw 1884 is an adult male taken in June on >> St. Michaels in Alaska. This is an area where Glaucous and vegae have >> been found to hybridize (Kessel 1989 "Birds of the Seward Peninsula"), >> and that hybrid is what Dwight presumed the type to be (see pages >> 249-250 in his monograph). Given how birders are keen to separate Vega >> Gull, I think it would be useful to limit the use of the name >> "Nelson's Gull" to hybrids that match the type or refer to vegae x >> hyperboreus hybrids. Extending it to all Glaucous x Herring hybrids >> seems unhelpful, although I understand the use of the name is >> widespread now, at least among North American birders. I should note >> that the numerous Glaucous x nominate argentatus hybrids in Iceland, >> for example, were never called Nelson's Gull. >> >> Louis Bevier >> Fairfield, Maine >> >> >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Slaty-backed Gulls with dark eyes From: Alvaro Jaramillo <info AT ALVAROSADVENTURES.COM> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:31:50 -0800 All, After inspiring gull watching in Florida, I came home last night and decided to do some quick checks of the gulls here today. The gulls are back in Half Moon Bay, the flock was bigger than it has been in over a year over there. In the flock there was a second cycle Slaty-backed Gull, three photos are on my flickr site (see below). The issue that came to mind is that the bird was in the second cycle and had dark eyes. Overall, not a big deal, as there are even photos of adults with dark eyes from Japan. However, our stereotype of what the Slaty-backed Gull is that they have to have a staring yellow eye so I guess we should be open minded about identifying this species. Another bit to think about is that when I saw this bird what concerned me more was the strongly bicolored bill. Checking the photos in the Japanese Gull Site it turns out that strongly bicolored bills are not uncommon on Slaty-backed Gulls in their second cycle. Learned something new there. Here are the photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/alvarojaramillo/6793526149/in/photostream/ good birding Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com www.alvarosadventures.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:25:54 -0800 Hi all - Very interesting discussion. Related but not mentioned yet (unless I missed it) is that the amount of white in the mirrors of p9-p10 of large gulls may increase with age well beyond the age at which "definitive plumage" is otherwise reached. I think this was documented in known-age Lesser Black-backed Gulls but don't currently have my finger on the reference. Then you might have age-specific migration patterns, with younger birds more often flying south, older more experienced birds (especially males) sticking closer to the breeding colonies during winter. This was mentioned by Al for Great Lakes populations and nicely documented by Larry Spear in Western Gulls (1988, Auk) . It doesn't seem like this would explain all of the variation in mirror size of p9-p10 between Newfoundland and other Herring Gull populations in North America but it may be something to keep in mind. Peter At 03:47 PM 1/30/2012, Bruce Mactavish wrote: >Amar, > >This Herring Gull photographed in Chicago is very typical of >Herring Gulls in Newfoundland. Your observations on the mirrors of >P10 and P9 of Chicago birds match what I saw in the Niagara >River. In late November and early December 2000 I examined the >details of Herring Gull wing tip patterns from photographs and in >the field observations of 37 individuals from the Niagara River and >100 individuals in St. John's, Newfoundland. > >Some results. >Adult Herring Gulls with a broken or no subterminal bar on >P10, Niagara River = 0%; St. John's, Newfoundland = 61% >Adult Herring Gulls with a white mirror on P9, Niagara River = >10%; St. John's, Newfoundland = 91% > > >Therefore a lot more white in the wingtip of the Newfoundland >birds. These are huge differences. The sample size was not large >but it conveyed the impression that took me by surprise when seeing >Niagara River Herring Gulls for the first time. These details and >more differences in Niagara vs Newfoundland Herring Gulls are >outlined in the out of print Jonsson and Mactavish 2001 (Birders >Journal 10: 90-107). > >Studying the wingtip patterns of Herring Gulls at various locations >throughout North America in the breeding season especially, but also >winter, would help to determine the different populations of the >species in North America. > >A good many Herring Gulls breeding in northeastern North America are >migratory. There are no Herring Gulls wintering in the northern half >of Newfoundland or north to the limit of the breeding range on >southern Baffin Island. Who knows how far these birds migrate to >spend the winter. Since large numbers of the marine Great >Black-backed Gull migrate to the Great Lake for the winter there is >no reason to think that the more abundant Newfoundland and Labrador >Herring Gull wouldn't do the same. It would be interesting to know >the wingtip patterns of Herring Gulls breeding in northern Ontario >and central Quebec. Are they more closely related to Great Lake >breeders or Newfoundland breeders or something in between? > >Photographing fully spread wings of adult Herring Gulls wherever you >are is a start to breaking the Herring Gull code in North America. > >BTW Herring Gulls in St. John's are just starting to loose head >streaking this week. Still well under 1% with pure white heads. This >changes rapidly in the first week of February. > >Bruce Mactavish >St. John's, Newfoundland > > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification > [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Amar Ayyash >Sent: January-29-12 11:47 AM >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? > >Here's an adult American Herring that I photographed in Chicago >yesterday. I'm interested in people's thoughts as to whether or not >this one falls square into the category of so called "Newfoundland" types: > >https://picasaweb.google.com/103465823166118508417/NEHerring#5702845761281993282 > >I could say with some confidence that this wingtip pattern >(especially the limited black on the underside) is not common on >southern Lake Michigan. Based on my observations, I would say that >about 80% of the Herrings found in the Chicago area are with only >one large mirror on P10. If a mirror is found on P9, it's usually a >small one that does not merge with the white primary tip. I like to >think of our adult Herrings as somewhere between the western types >and the Niagara birds, but can't be sure at this time. > >On a slightly different note, Ron mentioned that Godfrey recorded >this Thayer's-like wingtip pattern only on female smithosonianus >birds. Interestingly, I was recently reading an old paper in >"Bird-banding" that mentions Goethe as having made this same >observation with female type argentatus birds in Europe. > >Is there research that shows that wingtip patterns are sex-related >or age-related in adults? > >Best, >Amar Ayyash >Frankfort, Illinois > > > >From: Kevin McLaughlin <kam50 AT SHAW.CA> >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:22 AM >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? > >The Jonsson-Mactavish article referenced by Louis, is the key >approach that I am aware of, to separating adults of the >"Newfoundland"(American) Herring Gull from the "Niagara" type. > >In winter, at the western end of Lake Ontario and along the Niagara >River, the Niagara ("Southern") type is greatly in the majority of >adult Herring Gulls studied from year to year. Some Newfoundland or, >as I call them, "Northern" birds, arrive in November at Niagara and >stay for the winter. Of the birds that I and others have closely >examined there this season, perhaps one to five percent were adult >Northerns. Interestingly, I have found historically that the numbers >of Northerns may be somewhat higher west of the Niagara River, in >Hamilton Harbour. To illustrate, there were about 30 adult Herring >Gulls milling about the channel of the ship canal at the entrance to >Hamilton Harbour this past Thursday January 26. Twelve to fifteen >were of the Newfoundland (Northern) type. However, as this is just >one sample, much needs to be done in a quantitative sense, involving >these two types in winter here. > >One interesting note pertaining to these birds in January involves a >particular difference between northern birds and the southern adults >which breed in Hamilton Harbour. Many birds of both types mingle >when feeding in the ship canal. Not surprisingly, many of the >presumably local southern nesting birds are nearing full definitive >alternate plumage by now, with brightening bare parts and white >heads and necks. The wintering northern birds however, are in the >main, still in basic plumage, possessing much blotchy streaking on >the head, hindneck and breast sides and relatively dull yellow >bills. All manner of variation exists of course, but we have in this >a viable, albeit fleeting, means of separation. > >Kevin McLaughlin >Hamilton, Ontario. >----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Bevier" ><lrbevier AT COLBY.EDU> >To: <BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU> >Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 10:16 AM >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? > > > > I have seen Herring Gulls with this pattern over the years from my > > time in Connecticut and Philadelphia, where I recall seeing only a few > > (total) on gull collecting trips to the Tullytown landfill with Sally > > Conyne. They seem more frequent in Maine where I live now. I don't > > have precise percentages, but among a slightly less than a thousand > > gulls on recent landfill visits, only one per trip might be found; so > > seemingly an order of magnitude less frequent than reported by Tom and > > Kevin for the central New York area. > > > > This wingtip pattern is interesting, and Ron Pittaway's post shows > > that it may not be restricted to breeding birds from extreme northeast > > North America but perhaps more frequent there (and only in one sex?). > > The pattern was first well articulated by Lars Jonsson and Bruce > > Mactavish in 2001 (Birders Journal 10: 90-107), and maybe Bruce is too > > shy to link to his other work here > > > (http://gull-research.org/smithsonianus/5cyjan.html). > That Bruce says > > the pattern is in "some but not all" breeders in Newfoundland-Labrador > > is interesting, if this really were tied to geographic variation in a > > character. Hence, I'm not sure we should name all birds with this > > pattern as "Newfoundland" types. If it is only found on one sex that > > would contradict a specific geographic population too. One of the > > birds of this type that we saw recently in Maine (photographed by Luke > > Seitz) was a small female type (thayeri wingtip pattern but mantle > > like smithsonianus and with bright yellow irides). This bird also > > lacked a black bar on p5 like Alvaro's bird. > > > > It is interesting to me that this pattern of extensive white tip on > > p10 and limited black on the other primary tips is also found in > > "Herring" Gull populations at higher latitude, e.g. nominate > > argentatus (which otherwise has a darker gray mantle than > > smithsonianus). Dwight mentions the pattern and compares it across > > taxa (smithsonianus, vegae, argentatus, and thayeri) on page 191 of > > his 1925 monograph on gulls. He notes that he found it on specimens of > > smithsonianus. I wonder if this pattern is showing some influence from > > nominate argentatus into northeastern North America, perhaps > > ancestral? > > > > This pattern can be similar to presumed hybrid Glaucous x Herring > > hybrids. Here is one example I photographed in Maine recently: > > http://flic.kr/s/aHsjy4Pi4M > > > > Conveniently, a Herring Gull posed with it. This bird looks like a > > male based on the wedge-shaped head and large size. I judged it a > > hybrid because of the long-looking bill, broad body (wide body; > > compare to male Herring landing with it) and broad wings (breadth of > > wing front to back wider than Herring and more like Glaucous in that > > regard). > > > > One last word on use of "Nelson's" Gull as a name for this hybrid. The > > type of "Larus nelsoni" Henshaw 1884 is an adult male taken in June on > > St. Michaels in Alaska. This is an area where Glaucous and vegae have > > been found to hybridize (Kessel 1989 "Birds of the Seward Peninsula"), > > and that hybrid is what Dwight presumed the type to be (see pages > > 249-250 in his monograph). Given how birders are keen to separate Vega > > Gull, I think it would be useful to limit the use of the name > > "Nelson's Gull" to hybrids that match the type or refer to vegae x > > hyperboreus hybrids. Extending it to all Glaucous x Herring hybrids > > seems unhelpful, although I understand the use of the name is > > widespread now, at least among North American birders. I should note > > that the numerous Glaucous x nominate argentatus hybrids in Iceland, > > for example, were never called Nelson's Gull. > > > > Louis Bevier > > Fairfield, Maine > > > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > > > Archives: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > >Archives: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1 AT NF.SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:17:29 -0330 Amar, This Herring Gull photographed in Chicago is very typical of Herring Gulls in Newfoundland. Your observations on the mirrors of P10 and P9 of Chicago birds match what I saw in the Niagara River. In late November and early December 2000 I examined the details of Herring Gull wing tip patterns from photographs and in the field observations of 37 individuals from the Niagara River and 100 individuals in St. John's, Newfoundland. Some results. Adult Herring Gulls with a broken or no subterminal bar on P10, Niagara River = 0%; St. John's, Newfoundland = 61% Adult Herring Gulls with a white mirror on P9, Niagara River = 10%; St. John's, Newfoundland = 91% Therefore a lot more white in the wingtip of the Newfoundland birds. These are huge differences. The sample size was not large but it conveyed the impression that took me by surprise when seeing Niagara River Herring Gulls for the first time. These details and more differences in Niagara vs Newfoundland Herring Gulls are outlined in the out of print Jonsson and Mactavish 2001 (Birders Journal 10: 90-107). Studying the wingtip patterns of Herring Gulls at various locations throughout North America in the breeding season especially, but also winter, would help to determine the different populations of the species in North America. A good many Herring Gulls breeding in northeastern North America are migratory. There are no Herring Gulls wintering in the northern half of Newfoundland or north to the limit of the breeding range on southern Baffin Island. Who knows how far these birds migrate to spend the winter. Since large numbers of the marine Great Black-backed Gull migrate to the Great Lake for the winter there is no reason to think that the more abundant Newfoundland and Labrador Herring Gull wouldn't do the same. It would be interesting to know the wingtip patterns of Herring Gulls breeding in northern Ontario and central Quebec. Are they more closely related to Great Lake breeders or Newfoundland breeders or something in between? Photographing fully spread wings of adult Herring Gulls wherever you are is a start to breaking the Herring Gull code in North America. BTW Herring Gulls in St. John's are just starting to loose head streaking this week. Still well under 1% with pure white heads. This changes rapidly in the first week of February. Bruce Mactavish St. John's, Newfoundland From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Amar Ayyash Sent: January-29-12 11:47 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? Here's an adult American Herring that I photographed in Chicago yesterday. I'm interested in people's thoughts as to whether or not this one falls square into the category of so called "Newfoundland" types: https://picasaweb.google.com/103465823166118508417/NEHerring#570284576128199 3282 I could say with some confidence that this wingtip pattern (especially the limited black on the underside) is not common on southern Lake Michigan. Based on my observations, I would say that about 80% of the Herrings found in the Chicago area are with only one large mirror on P10. If a mirror is found on P9, it's usually a small one that does not merge with the white primary tip. I like to think of our adult Herrings as somewhere between the western types and the Niagara birds, but can't be sure at this time. On a slightly different note, Ron mentioned that Godfrey recorded this Thayer's-like wingtip pattern only on female smithosonianus birds. Interestingly, I was recently reading an old paper in "Bird-banding" that mentions Goethe as having made this same observation with female type argentatus birds in Europe. Is there research that shows that wingtip patterns are sex-related or age-related in adults? Best, Amar Ayyash Frankfort, Illinois From: Kevin McLaughlin To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? The Jonsson-Mactavish article referenced by Louis, is the key approach that I am aware of, to separating adults of the "Newfoundland"(American) Herring Gull from the "Niagara" type. In winter, at the western end of Lake Ontario and along the Niagara River, the Niagara ("Southern") type is greatly in the majority of adult Herring Gulls studied from year to year. Some Newfoundland or, as I call them, "Northern" birds, arrive in November at Niagara and stay for the winter. Of the birds that I and others have closely examined there this season, perhaps one to five percent were adult Northerns. Interestingly, I have found historically that the numbers of Northerns may be somewhat higher west of the Niagara River, in Hamilton Harbour. To illustrate, there were about 30 adult Herring Gulls milling about the channel of the ship canal at the entrance to Hamilton Harbour this past Thursday January 26. Twelve to fifteen were of the Newfoundland (Northern) type. However, as this is just one sample, much needs to be done in a quantitative sense, involving these two types in winter here. One interesting note pertaining to these birds in January involves a particular difference between northern birds and the southern adults which breed in Hamilton Harbour. Many birds of both types mingle when feeding in the ship canal. Not surprisingly, many of the presumably local southern nesting birds are nearing full definitive alternate plumage by now, with brightening bare parts and white heads and necks. The wintering northern birds however, are in the main, still in basic plumage, possessing much blotchy streaking on the head, hindneck and breast sides and relatively dull yellow bills. All manner of variation exists of course, but we have in this a viable, albeit fleeting, means of separation. Kevin McLaughlin Hamilton, Ontario. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Bevier" To: Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? > I have seen Herring Gulls with this pattern over the years from my > time in Connecticut and Philadelphia, where I recall seeing only a few > (total) on gull collecting trips to the Tullytown landfill with Sally > Conyne. They seem more frequent in Maine where I live now. I don't > have precise percentages, but among a slightly less than a thousand > gulls on recent landfill visits, only one per trip might be found; so > seemingly an order of magnitude less frequent than reported by Tom and > Kevin for the central New York area. > > This wingtip pattern is interesting, and Ron Pittaway's post shows > that it may not be restricted to breeding birds from extreme northeast > North America but perhaps more frequent there (and only in one sex?). > The pattern was first well articulated by Lars Jonsson and Bruce > Mactavish in 2001 (Birders Journal 10: 90-107), and maybe Bruce is too > shy to link to his other work here > (http://gull-research.org/smithsonianus/5cyjan.html). That Bruce says > the pattern is in "some but not all" breeders in Newfoundland-Labrador > is interesting, if this really were tied to geographic variation in a > character. Hence, I'm not sure we should name all birds with this > pattern as "Newfoundland" types. If it is only found on one sex that > would contradict a specific geographic population too. One of the > birds of this type that we saw recently in Maine (photographed by Luke > Seitz) was a small female type (thayeri wingtip pattern but mantle > like smithsonianus and with bright yellow irides). This bird also > lacked a black bar on p5 like Alvaro's bird. > > It is interesting to me that this pattern of extensive white tip on > p10 and limited black on the other primary tips is also found in > "Herring" Gull populations at higher latitude, e.g. nominate > argentatus (which otherwise has a darker gray mantle than > smithsonianus). Dwight mentions the pattern and compares it across > taxa (smithsonianus, vegae, argentatus, and thayeri) on page 191 of > his 1925 monograph on gulls. He notes that he found it on specimens of > smithsonianus. I wonder if this pattern is showing some influence from > nominate argentatus into northeastern North America, perhaps > ancestral? > > This pattern can be similar to presumed hybrid Glaucous x Herring > hybrids. Here is one example I photographed in Maine recently: > http://flic.kr/s/aHsjy4Pi4M > > Conveniently, a Herring Gull posed with it. This bird looks like a > male based on the wedge-shaped head and large size. I judged it a > hybrid because of the long-looking bill, broad body (wide body; > compare to male Herring landing with it) and broad wings (breadth of > wing front to back wider than Herring and more like Glaucous in that > regard). > > One last word on use of "Nelson's" Gull as a name for this hybrid. The > type of "Larus nelsoni" Henshaw 1884 is an adult male taken in June on > St. Michaels in Alaska. This is an area where Glaucous and vegae have > been found to hybridize (Kessel 1989 "Birds of the Seward Peninsula"), > and that hybrid is what Dwight presumed the type to be (see pages > 249-250 in his monograph). Given how birders are keen to separate Vega > Gull, I think it would be useful to limit the use of the name > "Nelson's Gull" to hybrids that match the type or refer to vegae x > hyperboreus hybrids. Extending it to all Glaucous x Herring hybrids > seems unhelpful, although I understand the use of the name is > widespread now, at least among North American birders. I should note > that the numerous Glaucous x nominate argentatus hybrids in Iceland, > for example, were never called Nelson's Gull. > > Louis Bevier > Fairfield, Maine > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes. From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:35:13 -0800 Folks I will use this opening to the subject by Kevin here to mention that Great Lakes Herring Gulls are the one population in North America that behaves as a distinctive subunit of the Herring Gull. There are lots and lots of banding returns of Great Lakes breeders, so good data. These may leave the Great Lakes as immatures, reaching south to the Gulf Coast when they do so. However, once adults Great Lakes Herring Gulls are residents, they do not leave the Great Lakes. As it is unlikely that coastal Herrings will dip into the Great Lakes in any substantial numbers, the Great Lakes are a great place to begin trying to determine differences between the northern migrant and the resident Great Lakes Gulls. The distinction is not perfect as there are Herring Gulls breeding commonly but in low densities on small lakes in the Canadian Shield country and it stands to reason that these may be closer in behavior and migration type to the Great Lakes gulls. Who knows where the transition to full migration begins as one heads north from the lakes. Furthermore molt begins very early in Great Lakes Herrings, even the young birds. By September most first cycle birds already have a lot of molt in the upperparts, these are strikingly different from the unmolted juveniles that reach the area later on in the winter from point farther north. In Florida there is a similar dichotomy, most first cycle birds are worn and have entirely second generations mantles; while there are fresher looking birds with nearly fully juvenile plumage. I assume that this is a south - north dichotomy here too. In California overall the Herring Gulls are not as worn and molted as the average Florida Herring Gull. Alvaro Jaramillo alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com www.alvarosadventures.com -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Kevin McLaughlin Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:23 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? The Jonsson-Mactavish article referenced by Louis, is the key approach that I am aware of, to separating adults of the "Newfoundland"(American) Herring Gull from the "Niagara" type. In winter, at the western end of Lake Ontario and along the Niagara River, the Niagara ("Southern") type is greatly in the majority of adult Herring Gulls studied from year to year. Some Newfoundland or, as I call them, "Northern" birds, arrive in November at Niagara and stay for the winter. Of the birds that I and others have closely examined there this season, perhaps one to five percent were adult Northerns. Interestingly, I have found historically that the numbers of Northerns may be somewhat higher west of the Niagara River, in Hamilton Harbour. To illustrate, there were about 30 adult Herring Gulls milling about the channel of the ship canal at the entrance to Hamilton Harbour this past Thursday January 26. Twelve to fifteen were of the Newfoundland (Northern) type. However, as this is just one sample, much needs to be done in a quantitative sense, involving these two types in winter here. One interesting note pertaining to these birds in January involves a particular difference between northern birds and the southern adults which breed in Hamilton Harbour. Many birds of both types mingle when feeding in the ship canal. Not surprisingly, many of the presumably local southern nesting birds are nearing full definitive alternate plumage by now, with brightening bare parts and white heads and necks. The wintering northern birds however, are in the main, still in basic plumage, possessing much blotchy streaking on the head, hindneck and breast sides and relatively dull yellow bills. All manner of variation exists of course, but we have in this a viable, albeit fleeting, means of separation. Kevin McLaughlin Hamilton, Ontario. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Bevier" To: Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? >I have seen Herring Gulls with this pattern over the years from my > time in Connecticut and Philadelphia, where I recall seeing only a few > (total) on gull collecting trips to the Tullytown landfill with Sally > Conyne. They seem more frequent in Maine where I live now. I don't > have precise percentages, but among a slightly less than a thousand > gulls on recent landfill visits, only one per trip might be found; so > seemingly an order of magnitude less frequent than reported by Tom and > Kevin for the central New York area. > > This wingtip pattern is interesting, and Ron Pittaway's post shows > that it may not be restricted to breeding birds from extreme northeast > North America but perhaps more frequent there (and only in one sex?). > The pattern was first well articulated by Lars Jonsson and Bruce > Mactavish in 2001 (Birders Journal 10: 90-107), and maybe Bruce is too > shy to link to his other work here > (http://gull-research.org/smithsonianus/5cyjan.html). That Bruce says > the pattern is in "some but not all" breeders in Newfoundland-Labrador > is interesting, if this really were tied to geographic variation in a > character. Hence, I'm not sure we should name all birds with this > pattern as "Newfoundland" types. If it is only found on one sex that > would contradict a specific geographic population too. One of the > birds of this type that we saw recently in Maine (photographed by Luke > Seitz) was a small female type (thayeri wingtip pattern but mantle > like smithsonianus and with bright yellow irides). This bird also > lacked a black bar on p5 like Alvaro's bird. > > It is interesting to me that this pattern of extensive white tip on > p10 and limited black on the other primary tips is also found in > "Herring" Gull populations at higher latitude, e.g. nominate > argentatus (which otherwise has a darker gray mantle than > smithsonianus). Dwight mentions the pattern and compares it across > taxa (smithsonianus, vegae, argentatus, and thayeri) on page 191 of > his 1925 monograph on gulls. He notes that he found it on specimens of > smithsonianus. I wonder if this pattern is showing some influence from > nominate argentatus into northeastern North America, perhaps > ancestral? > > This pattern can be similar to presumed hybrid Glaucous x Herring > hybrids. Here is one example I photographed in Maine recently: > http://flic.kr/s/aHsjy4Pi4M > > Conveniently, a Herring Gull posed with it. This bird looks like a > male based on the wedge-shaped head and large size. I judged it a > hybrid because of the long-looking bill, broad body (wide body; > compare to male Herring landing with it) and broad wings (breadth of > wing front to back wider than Herring and more like Glaucous in that > regard). > > One last word on use of "Nelson's" Gull as a name for this hybrid. The > type of "Larus nelsoni" Henshaw 1884 is an adult male taken in June on > St. Michaels in Alaska. This is an area where Glaucous and vegae have > been found to hybridize (Kessel 1989 "Birds of the Seward Peninsula"), > and that hybrid is what Dwight presumed the type to be (see pages > 249-250 in his monograph). Given how birders are keen to separate Vega > Gull, I think it would be useful to limit the use of the name > "Nelson's Gull" to hybrids that match the type or refer to vegae x > hyperboreus hybrids. Extending it to all Glaucous x Herring hybrids > seems unhelpful, although I understand the use of the name is > widespread now, at least among North American birders. I should note > that the numerous Glaucous x nominate argentatus hybrids in Iceland, > for example, were never called Nelson's Gull. > > Louis Bevier > Fairfield, Maine > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: Amar Ayyash <amarayyash AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 07:17:24 -0800 Here's an adult American Herring that I photographed in Chicago yesterday. I'm interested in people's thoughts as to whether or not this one falls square into the category of so called "Newfoundland" types:   https://picasaweb.google.com/103465823166118508417/NEHerring#5702845761281993282   I could say with some confidence that this wingtip pattern (especially the limited black on the underside) is not common on southern Lake Michigan. Based on my observations, I would say that about 80% of the Herrings found in the Chicago area are with only one large mirror on P10. If a mirror is found on P9, it's usually a small one that does not merge with the white primary tip. I like to think of our adult Herrings as somewhere between the western types and the Niagara birds, but can't be sure at this time.   On a slightly different note, Ron mentioned that Godfrey recorded this Thayer's-like wingtip pattern only on female smithosonianus birds. Interestingly, I was recently reading an old paper in "Bird-banding" that mentions Goethe as having made this same observation with female type argentatus birds in Europe.   Is there research that shows that wingtip patterns are sex-related or age-related in adults?   Best, Amar Ayyash Frankfort, Illinois     ________________________________ From: Kevin McLaughlin To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? The Jonsson-Mactavish article referenced by Louis, is the key approach that I am aware of, to separating adults of the "Newfoundland"(American) Herring Gull from the "Niagara" type. In winter, at the western end of Lake Ontario and along the Niagara River, the Niagara ("Southern") type is greatly in the majority of adult Herring Gulls studied from year to year. Some Newfoundland or, as I call them, "Northern" birds, arrive in November at Niagara and stay for the winter. Of the birds that I and others have closely examined there this season, perhaps one to five percent were adult Northerns. Interestingly, I have found historically that the numbers of Northerns may be somewhat higher west of the Niagara River, in Hamilton Harbour. To illustrate, there were about 30 adult Herring Gulls milling about the channel of the ship canal at the entrance to Hamilton Harbour this past Thursday January 26. Twelve to fifteen were of the Newfoundland (Northern) type. However, as this is just one sample, much needs to be done in a quantitative sense, involving these two types in winter here. One interesting note pertaining to these birds in January involves a particular difference between northern birds and the southern adults which breed in Hamilton Harbour. Many birds of both types mingle when feeding in the ship canal. Not surprisingly, many of the presumably local southern nesting birds are nearing full definitive alternate plumage by now, with brightening bare parts and white heads and necks. The wintering northern birds however, are in the main, still in basic plumage, possessing much blotchy streaking on the head, hindneck and breast sides and relatively dull yellow bills. All manner of variation exists of course, but we have in this a viable, albeit fleeting, means of separation. Kevin McLaughlin Hamilton, Ontario. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Bevier" To: Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? > I have seen Herring Gulls with this pattern over the years from my > time in Connecticut and Philadelphia, where I recall seeing only a few > (total) on gull collecting trips to the Tullytown landfill with Sally > Conyne. They seem more frequent in Maine where I live now. I don't > have precise percentages, but among a slightly less than a thousand > gulls on recent landfill visits, only one per trip might be found; so > seemingly an order of magnitude less frequent than reported by Tom and > Kevin for the central New York area. > > This wingtip pattern is interesting, and Ron Pittaway's post shows > that it may not be restricted to breeding birds from extreme northeast > North America but perhaps more frequent there (and only in one sex?). > The pattern was first well articulated by Lars Jonsson and Bruce > Mactavish in 2001 (Birders Journal 10: 90-107), and maybe Bruce is too > shy to link to his other work here > (http://gull-research.org/smithsonianus/5cyjan.html). That Bruce says > the pattern is in "some but not all" breeders in Newfoundland-Labrador > is interesting, if this really were tied to geographic variation in a > character. Hence, I'm not sure we should name all birds with this > pattern as "Newfoundland" types. If it is only found on one sex that > would contradict a specific geographic population too. One of the > birds of this type that we saw recently in Maine (photographed by Luke > Seitz) was a small female type (thayeri wingtip pattern but mantle > like smithsonianus and with bright yellow irides). This bird also > lacked a black bar on p5 like Alvaro's bird. > > It is interesting to me that this pattern of extensive white tip on > p10 and limited black on the other primary tips is also found in > "Herring" Gull populations at higher latitude, e.g. nominate > argentatus (which otherwise has a darker gray mantle than > smithsonianus). Dwight mentions the pattern and compares it across > taxa (smithsonianus, vegae, argentatus, and thayeri) on page 191 of > his 1925 monograph on gulls. He notes that he found it on specimens of > smithsonianus. I wonder if this pattern is showing some influence from > nominate argentatus into northeastern North America, perhaps > ancestral? > > This pattern can be similar to presumed hybrid Glaucous x Herring > hybrids. Here is one example I photographed in Maine recently: > http://flic.kr/s/aHsjy4Pi4M > > Conveniently, a Herring Gull posed with it. This bird looks like a > male based on the wedge-shaped head and large size. I judged it a > hybrid because of the long-looking bill, broad body (wide body; > compare to male Herring landing with it) and broad wings (breadth of > wing front to back wider than Herring and more like Glaucous in that > regard). > > One last word on use of "Nelson's" Gull as a name for this hybrid. The > type of "Larus nelsoni" Henshaw 1884 is an adult male taken in June on > St. Michaels in Alaska. This is an area where Glaucous and vegae have > been found to hybridize (Kessel 1989 "Birds of the Seward Peninsula"), > and that hybrid is what Dwight presumed the type to be (see pages > 249-250 in his monograph). Given how birders are keen to separate Vega > Gull, I think it would be useful to limit the use of the name > "Nelson's Gull" to hybrids that match the type or refer to vegae x > hyperboreus hybrids. Extending it to all Glaucous x Herring hybrids > seems unhelpful, although I understand the use of the name is > widespread now, at least among North American birders. I should note > that the numerous Glaucous x nominate argentatus hybrids in Iceland, > for example, were never called Nelson's Gull. > > Louis Bevier > Fairfield, Maine > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: Kevin McLaughlin <kam50 AT SHAW.CA> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:22:56 -0500 The Jonsson-Mactavish article referenced by Louis, is the key approach that I am aware of, to separating adults of the "Newfoundland"(American) Herring Gull from the "Niagara" type. In winter, at the western end of Lake Ontario and along the Niagara River, the Niagara ("Southern") type is greatly in the majority of adult Herring Gulls studied from year to year. Some Newfoundland or, as I call them, "Northern" birds, arrive in November at Niagara and stay for the winter. Of the birds that I and others have closely examined there this season, perhaps one to five percent were adult Northerns. Interestingly, I have found historically that the numbers of Northerns may be somewhat higher west of the Niagara River, in Hamilton Harbour. To illustrate, there were about 30 adult Herring Gulls milling about the channel of the ship canal at the entrance to Hamilton Harbour this past Thursday January 26. Twelve to fifteen were of the Newfoundland (Northern) type. However, as this is just one sample, much needs to be done in a quantitative sense, involving these two types in winter here. One interesting note pertaining to these birds in January involves a particular difference between northern birds and the southern adults which breed in Hamilton Harbour. Many birds of both types mingle when feeding in the ship canal. Not surprisingly, many of the presumably local southern nesting birds are nearing full definitive alternate plumage by now, with brightening bare parts and white heads and necks. The wintering northern birds however, are in the main, still in basic plumage, possessing much blotchy streaking on the head, hindneck and breast sides and relatively dull yellow bills. All manner of variation exists of course, but we have in this a viable, albeit fleeting, means of separation. Kevin McLaughlin Hamilton, Ontario. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Bevier" To: Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? >I have seen Herring Gulls with this pattern over the years from my > time in Connecticut and Philadelphia, where I recall seeing only a few > (total) on gull collecting trips to the Tullytown landfill with Sally > Conyne. They seem more frequent in Maine where I live now. I don't > have precise percentages, but among a slightly less than a thousand > gulls on recent landfill visits, only one per trip might be found; so > seemingly an order of magnitude less frequent than reported by Tom and > Kevin for the central New York area. > > This wingtip pattern is interesting, and Ron Pittaway's post shows > that it may not be restricted to breeding birds from extreme northeast > North America but perhaps more frequent there (and only in one sex?). > The pattern was first well articulated by Lars Jonsson and Bruce > Mactavish in 2001 (Birders Journal 10: 90-107), and maybe Bruce is too > shy to link to his other work here > (http://gull-research.org/smithsonianus/5cyjan.html). That Bruce says > the pattern is in "some but not all" breeders in Newfoundland-Labrador > is interesting, if this really were tied to geographic variation in a > character. Hence, I'm not sure we should name all birds with this > pattern as "Newfoundland" types. If it is only found on one sex that > would contradict a specific geographic population too. One of the > birds of this type that we saw recently in Maine (photographed by Luke > Seitz) was a small female type (thayeri wingtip pattern but mantle > like smithsonianus and with bright yellow irides). This bird also > lacked a black bar on p5 like Alvaro's bird. > > It is interesting to me that this pattern of extensive white tip on > p10 and limited black on the other primary tips is also found in > "Herring" Gull populations at higher latitude, e.g. nominate > argentatus (which otherwise has a darker gray mantle than > smithsonianus). Dwight mentions the pattern and compares it across > taxa (smithsonianus, vegae, argentatus, and thayeri) on page 191 of > his 1925 monograph on gulls. He notes that he found it on specimens of > smithsonianus. I wonder if this pattern is showing some influence from > nominate argentatus into northeastern North America, perhaps > ancestral? > > This pattern can be similar to presumed hybrid Glaucous x Herring > hybrids. Here is one example I photographed in Maine recently: > http://flic.kr/s/aHsjy4Pi4M > > Conveniently, a Herring Gull posed with it. This bird looks like a > male based on the wedge-shaped head and large size. I judged it a > hybrid because of the long-looking bill, broad body (wide body; > compare to male Herring landing with it) and broad wings (breadth of > wing front to back wider than Herring and more like Glaucous in that > regard). > > One last word on use of "Nelson's" Gull as a name for this hybrid. The > type of "Larus nelsoni" Henshaw 1884 is an adult male taken in June on > St. Michaels in Alaska. This is an area where Glaucous and vegae have > been found to hybridize (Kessel 1989 "Birds of the Seward Peninsula"), > and that hybrid is what Dwight presumed the type to be (see pages > 249-250 in his monograph). Given how birders are keen to separate Vega > Gull, I think it would be useful to limit the use of the name > "Nelson's Gull" to hybrids that match the type or refer to vegae x > hyperboreus hybrids. Extending it to all Glaucous x Herring hybrids > seems unhelpful, although I understand the use of the name is > widespread now, at least among North American birders. I should note > that the numerous Glaucous x nominate argentatus hybrids in Iceland, > for example, were never called Nelson's Gull. > > Louis Bevier > Fairfield, Maine > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1 AT NF.SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 20:37:51 -0330 The presumed hybrid Glaucous x Herring at http://flic.kr/s/aHsjy4Pi4M might be a pure Herring Gull. P10 seems malformed. The underside is paler gray than the adjacent primaries. It doesn't seem right that the gray tongue would meet the mirror on P10 but not on P9. Unfortunately we cannot see the right wing to know if this pattern is symmetrical. Back crossing among hybrids might produce an individual looking close to one of the parent species. Typical adult Glaucous x Herring in Newfoundland look like a Glaucous Gull with very restricted but fine and sharply demarcated black markings in the outer 4-5 primaries. Back to Larus argentatus newfoundlandicus. This of course is a manufactured name. We in Newfoundland have used it to describe our local Herring Gulls with the 'thayer's pattern' on P9. That is when the gray tongue on the inner web breaches the black and meets the mirror. The number of birds exhibiting this feature might be 5%. It is probably no more than the pale end of the spectrum of Newfoundland and Labrador Herring Gulls. I watch Herring Gulls everywhere I go in North America which is not too many places unfortunately. I've seen Herring Gulls during the breeding season in Yukon and NWT. Herring Gulls during September migration in Alberta. Herring Gulls in Ontario in fall and early winter. Herring Gulls in New Jersey in May. Herring Gulls at Daytona Beach, Florida in January. Compared to Newfoundland Herring Gulls which I am most familiar with, the adult Herring Gulls in all of these places except Florida, generally showed a darker more extensively black wing tip with less white. The underside of the primary tip was on average blacker than most Newfoundland Herring Gulls. The adult Herring Gulls at Daytona Beach in January were amazing to my eye. Some birds reminded me of Newfoundland birds but others were from another world. It reinforced the idea that smithsonianus could be broken down into two or three subspecies. This is pure personal speculation and nothing more than general impressions on my part but based largely on wing tip patterns, I see these general groups of Herring Gulls. 1) Yukon and NWT breeding birds with intense black wingtips and restricted white areas, smallish birds, probably slightly darker gray mantle. 2) something in Alberta during September migration that was also similar to some of the birds at Daytona Beach, Florida in January. Large birds, big bills, head streaking concentration on lower hind neck, less black in wingtip pattern than the Yukon/NWT breeders. At the dump in Red Deer, Alberta I saw birds like this next to what looked like Yukon/NWT breeders. The head streaking and primary moult was much delayed. Bills still bright breeding plumage. 3) Ontario birds at Niagara River in November. These birds resembled Yukon/NWY breeders in wing tip pattern and smallish size. 4) Newfoundland and Labrador birds. Large. Pale above. Paler underside of wingtip. Plenty of individuals with 'Thayer's pattern P9'. Adults Herring Gulls with a 'Thayer's P9' observed in PA and New England States could still be Newfoundland birds. Locally banded breeding Herring Gulls have been observed in winter in PA, upstate New York and the New England States in winter. Newfoundland banded Herring Gulls sport an orange leg band with black lettering. Herring Gulls in North America are not well understood. Taking lots of photos of your local Herring Gulls is a start. Bruce Mactavish St. John's, Newfoundland -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Louis Bevier Sent: January-28-12 11:47 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? I have seen Herring Gulls with this pattern over the years from my time in Connecticut and Philadelphia, where I recall seeing only a few (total) on gull collecting trips to the Tullytown landfill with Sally Conyne. They seem more frequent in Maine where I live now. I don't have precise percentages, but among a slightly less than a thousand gulls on recent landfill visits, only one per trip might be found; so seemingly an order of magnitude less frequent than reported by Tom and Kevin for the central New York area. This wingtip pattern is interesting, and Ron Pittaway's post shows that it may not be restricted to breeding birds from extreme northeast North America but perhaps more frequent there (and only in one sex?). The pattern was first well articulated by Lars Jonsson and Bruce Mactavish in 2001 (Birders Journal 10: 90-107), and maybe Bruce is too shy to link to his other work here (http://gull-research.org/smithsonianus/5cyjan.html). That Bruce says the pattern is in "some but not all" breeders in Newfoundland-Labrador is interesting, if this really were tied to geographic variation in a character. Hence, I'm not sure we should name all birds with this pattern as "Newfoundland" types. If it is only found on one sex that would contradict a specific geographic population too. One of the birds of this type that we saw recently in Maine (photographed by Luke Seitz) was a small female type (thayeri wingtip pattern but mantle like smithsonianus and with bright yellow irides). This bird also lacked a black bar on p5 like Alvaro's bird. It is interesting to me that this pattern of extensive white tip on p10 and limited black on the other primary tips is also found in "Herring" Gull populations at higher latitude, e.g. nominate argentatus (which otherwise has a darker gray mantle than smithsonianus). Dwight mentions the pattern and compares it across taxa (smithsonianus, vegae, argentatus, and thayeri) on page 191 of his 1925 monograph on gulls. He notes that he found it on specimens of smithsonianus. I wonder if this pattern is showing some influence from nominate argentatus into northeastern North America, perhaps ancestral? This pattern can be similar to presumed hybrid Glaucous x Herring hybrids. Here is one example I photographed in Maine recently: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjy4Pi4M Conveniently, a Herring Gull posed with it. This bird looks like a male based on the wedge-shaped head and large size. I judged it a hybrid because of the long-looking bill, broad body (wide body; compare to male Herring landing with it) and broad wings (breadth of wing front to back wider than Herring and more like Glaucous in that regard). One last word on use of "Nelson's" Gull as a name for this hybrid. The type of "Larus nelsoni" Henshaw 1884 is an adult male taken in June on St. Michaels in Alaska. This is an area where Glaucous and vegae have been found to hybridize (Kessel 1989 "Birds of the Seward Peninsula"), and that hybrid is what Dwight presumed the type to be (see pages 249-250 in his monograph). Given how birders are keen to separate Vega Gull, I think it would be useful to limit the use of the name "Nelson's Gull" to hybrids that match the type or refer to vegae x hyperboreus hybrids. Extending it to all Glaucous x Herring hybrids seems unhelpful, although I understand the use of the name is widespread now, at least among North American birders. I should note that the numerous Glaucous x nominate argentatus hybrids in Iceland, for example, were never called Nelson's Gull. Louis Bevier Fairfield, Maine Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: Norman Deans van Swelm <norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:23:46 +0100 Alas there are no Glaucous x nominate argentatus hybrids in Iceland, the local Herring Gull is the pale-mantled Dutch Herring Gull L.a.argenteus! However the Russian Herring Gull L.a.argentatus and Glaucous Gull meet in the White Sea and it may be one their (adult) hybrids shown here, scroll down please: http://www.radioactiverobins.com/gulls/arcticgull/arcticgull.htm It shows the characteristics of Nelson's Gull as shown and described by Dwight. We also have our own gull with a 'thayeri' type wing-pattern of course: the Marsh Gull Larus omissus from The Baltic! An ancient gull which may well be the ancestor of gulls showing a 'thayeri' type wing in Canada & N.America today. Cheers, Norman Louis Bevier wrote among other things: > One last word on use of "Nelson's" Gull as a name for this hybrid. The type of "Larus nelsoni" Henshaw 1884 is an adult male taken in June on St. Michaels in Alaska. This is an area where Glaucous and vegae have been found to hybridize (Kessel 1989 "Birds of the Seward Peninsula"), and that hybrid is what Dwight presumed the type to be (see pages249-250 in his monograph). Given how birders are keen to separate Vega Gull, I think it would be useful to limit the use of the name "Nelson's Gull" to hybrids that match the type or refer to vegae x hyperboreus hybrids. Extending it to all Glaucous x Herring hybrids seems unhelpful, although I understand the use of the name is widespread now, at least among North American birders. I should note that the numerous Glaucous x nominate argentatus hybrids in Iceland, for example, were never called Nelson's Gull.< Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: Louis Bevier <lrbevier AT COLBY.EDU> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:16:42 -0500 I have seen Herring Gulls with this pattern over the years from my time in Connecticut and Philadelphia, where I recall seeing only a few (total) on gull collecting trips to the Tullytown landfill with Sally Conyne. They seem more frequent in Maine where I live now. I don't have precise percentages, but among a slightly less than a thousand gulls on recent landfill visits, only one per trip might be found; so seemingly an order of magnitude less frequent than reported by Tom and Kevin for the central New York area. This wingtip pattern is interesting, and Ron Pittaway's post shows that it may not be restricted to breeding birds from extreme northeast North America but perhaps more frequent there (and only in one sex?). The pattern was first well articulated by Lars Jonsson and Bruce Mactavish in 2001 (Birders Journal 10: 90-107), and maybe Bruce is too shy to link to his other work here (http://gull-research.org/smithsonianus/5cyjan.html). That Bruce says the pattern is in "some but not all" breeders in Newfoundland-Labrador is interesting, if this really were tied to geographic variation in a character. Hence, I'm not sure we should name all birds with this pattern as "Newfoundland" types. If it is only found on one sex that would contradict a specific geographic population too. One of the birds of this type that we saw recently in Maine (photographed by Luke Seitz) was a small female type (thayeri wingtip pattern but mantle like smithsonianus and with bright yellow irides). This bird also lacked a black bar on p5 like Alvaro's bird. It is interesting to me that this pattern of extensive white tip on p10 and limited black on the other primary tips is also found in "Herring" Gull populations at higher latitude, e.g. nominate argentatus (which otherwise has a darker gray mantle than smithsonianus). Dwight mentions the pattern and compares it across taxa (smithsonianus, vegae, argentatus, and thayeri) on page 191 of his 1925 monograph on gulls. He notes that he found it on specimens of smithsonianus. I wonder if this pattern is showing some influence from nominate argentatus into northeastern North America, perhaps ancestral? This pattern can be similar to presumed hybrid Glaucous x Herring hybrids. Here is one example I photographed in Maine recently: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjy4Pi4M Conveniently, a Herring Gull posed with it. This bird looks like a male based on the wedge-shaped head and large size. I judged it a hybrid because of the long-looking bill, broad body (wide body; compare to male Herring landing with it) and broad wings (breadth of wing front to back wider than Herring and more like Glaucous in that regard). One last word on use of "Nelson's" Gull as a name for this hybrid. The type of "Larus nelsoni" Henshaw 1884 is an adult male taken in June on St. Michaels in Alaska. This is an area where Glaucous and vegae have been found to hybridize (Kessel 1989 "Birds of the Seward Peninsula"), and that hybrid is what Dwight presumed the type to be (see pages 249-250 in his monograph). Given how birders are keen to separate Vega Gull, I think it would be useful to limit the use of the name "Nelson's Gull" to hybrids that match the type or refer to vegae x hyperboreus hybrids. Extending it to all Glaucous x Herring hybrids seems unhelpful, although I understand the use of the name is widespread now, at least among North American birders. I should note that the numerous Glaucous x nominate argentatus hybrids in Iceland, for example, were never called Nelson's Gull. Louis Bevier Fairfield, Maine Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2 AT CORNELL.EDU> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:28:59 +0000 I agree with Tom's assessment of just under 5% of adult Herrings in central New York having such white wingtips. I have examples from multiple years in the galleries at http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/Gulls201102# and http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/HerringGullsInIthaca. On any given day in the winter I could probably find you at least one. And I will venture to say that none of the Herring Gulls in our area have black underside of the wingtips. They are all silvered to come degree, quite different than Ring-billed Gulls. Kevin Ithaca, NY From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alvaro Jaramillo Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 11:08 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? Folks Here is one (of many) that has me scratching my head. This bird at the Cocoa Landfill in Florida looked like a Herring Gull in every way other than the oddball wing pattern. Is this OK for a Herring? Could it just be an old male? If this is instead a Nelson's Gull (hybrid Glaucous x Herring), well do they ever show distinctly black markings on the wing? I lean to this being a Herring at the extreme in wing pattern. http://www.flickr.com/photos/alvarojaramillo/6774120309/in/photostream Found a California Gull here yesterday, two hybrid Lesser BB x Herring were about, and lots of Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Good birding, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com www.alvarosadventures.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:07:59 -0500 In the "Gull Watching Guide" to Ontario, Jean Iron and I wrote the following under Herring Gull. “Some adult Herring Gulls have Thayer’sâ€�like wingtip patterns. These Thayer’sâ€�like Herring Gulls sometimes can be identified by a combination of characters: mantle colour identical to adjacent Herring Gulls, yellowish to bright yellow bill lacking greenish tones, clear yellow eyes (rare in Thayer’s), yellowish orange orbital ring (purplish in Thayer’s) and duller pink legs. The Thayer’s wingtip pattern has been recorded only in female Herring Gulls.” The AOU Check-list (1957) listed a summer record of a Thayer's Gull for Tadoussac, Quebec. At that time Thayer's was considered a subspecies of the Herring Gull. The late Earl Godfrey (pers. comm.) told me that the Tadoussac specimen was re-identified as a Herring Gull. Godfrey also told me that there were 4-5 Herring Gull specimens in the national museum with Thayer's-like wingtip patterns. Interestingly, they were all females. These birds were all from eastern Canada. In the 1970s I often went with Richard Poulin of the museum to collect gulls at the Ottawa dump because Godfrey was very interested in Thayer's Gulls. Rick collected one Herring Gull with a Thayer's primary pattern. In life we thought it was a Thayer's based on its wingtip pattern, but in all other respects it was a Herring Gull when examined by Godfrey. A few years ago I was examining Thayer's Gulls at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto. The specimen label on a "Thayer's" from the Yukon said the orbital ring was yellow/orange and it was sexed as a female. It also seemed large for a female Thayer's and the bill was large for a female Thayer's. The specimen was sent to Michel Gosselin of the Canadian Museum of Nature who confirmed it was a Herring Gull. Gull Watching Guide to Ontario http://www.ofo.ca/reportsandarticles/gulls.php Ron Pittaway Minden, Ontario From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alvaro Jaramillo Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 11:08 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? Folks Here is one (of many) that has me scratching my head. This bird at the Cocoa Landfill in Florida looked like a Herring Gull in every way other than the oddball wing pattern. Is this OK for a Herring? Could it just be an old male? If this is instead a Nelson’s Gull (hybrid Glaucous x Herring), well do they ever show distinctly black markings on the wing? I lean to this being a Herring at the extreme in wing pattern. http://www.flickr.com/photos/alvarojaramillo/6774120309/in/photostream Found a California Gull here yesterday, two hybrid Lesser BB x Herring were about, and lots of Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Good birding, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com www.alvarosadventures.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:52:16 -0500 In the "Gull Watching Guide" to Ontario, Jean Iron and I wrote the following under Herring Gull. $B!H(BSome adult Herring Gulls have Thayer$B!G(Bs$B!>(Blike wingtip patterns. These Thayer$B!G(Bs$B!>(Blike Herring Gulls sometimes can be identified by a combination of characters: mantle colour identical to adjacent Herring Gulls, yellowish to bright yellow bill lacking greenish tones, clear yellow eyes (rare in Thayer$B!G(Bs), yellowish orange orbital ring (purplish in Thayer$B!G(Bs) and duller pink legs. The Thayer$B!G(Bs wingtip pattern has been recorded only in female Herring Gulls.$B!I(B The AOU Check-list (1957) listed a summer record of a Thayer's Gull for Tadoussac, Quebec. At that time Thayer's was considered a subspecies of the Herring Gull. The late Earl Godfrey (pers. comm.) told me that the Tadoussac specimen was re-identified as a Herring Gull. Godfrey also told me that there were 4-5 Herring Gull specimens in the national museum with Thayer's-like wingtip patterns. Interestingly, they were all females. These birds were all from eastern Canada. In the 1970s I often went with Richard Poulin of the museum to collect gulls at the Ottawa dump because Godfrey was very interested in Thayer's Gulls. Rick collected one Herring Gull with a Thayer's primary pattern. In life we thought it was a Thayer's based on its wingtip pattern, but in all other respects it was a Herring Gull when examined by Godfrey. A few years ago I was examining Thayer's Gulls at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto. The specimen label on a "Thayer's" from the Yukon said the orbital ring was yellow/orange and it was sexed as a female. It also seemed large for a female Thayer's and the bill was large for a female Thayer's. The specimen was sent to Michel Gosselin of the Canadian Museum of Nature who confirmed it was a Herring Gull. Gull Watching Guide to Ontario http://www.ofo.ca/reportsandarticles/gulls.php Ron Pittaway Minden, Ontario From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alvaro Jaramillo Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 11:08 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? Folks Here is one (of many) that has me scratching my head. This bird at the Cocoa Landfill in Florida looked like a Herring Gull in every way other than the oddball wing pattern. Is this OK for a Herring? Could it just be an old male? If this is instead a Nelson$B!G(Bs Gull (hybrid Glaucous x Herring), well do they ever show distinctly black markings on the wing? I lean to this being a Herring at the extreme in wing pattern. http://www.flickr.com/photos/alvarojaramillo/6774120309/in/photostream Found a California Gull here yesterday, two hybrid Lesser BB x Herring were about, and lots of Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Good birding, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com www.alvarosadventures.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1 AT NF.SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:00:07 -0330 The gull at the Cocoa Landfill fits in perfectly with Larus smithsonianus newfoundlandicus. Adult Herring Gulls with fairly reduced black in wing tip including a 'Thayer's P9' are reasonably common in Newfoundland year round. It is a feature of some, but not all, of the Herring Gulls breeding in Newfoundland and Labrador. Generally the underside of the black wing tip is significantly grayer than the black above. B. Mactavish St. John's, Newfoundland From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alvaro Jaramillo Sent: January-28-12 12:38 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nelson's or Herring Gull? Folks Here is one (of many) that has me scratching my head. This bird at the Cocoa Landfill in Florida looked like a Herring Gull in every way other than the oddball wing pattern. Is this OK for a Herring? Could it just be an old male? If this is instead a Nelson's Gull (hybrid Glaucous x Herring), well do they ever show distinctly black markings on the wing? I lean to this being a Herring at the extreme in wing pattern. http://www.flickr.com/photos/alvarojaramillo/6774120309/in/photostream Found a California Gull here yesterday, two hybrid Lesser BB x Herring were about, and lots of Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Good birding, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com www.alvarosadventures.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: Suzanne Sullivan <swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 05:55:01 -0500 Alvaro, Jeremiah Trimble photographed a very similar gull to yours in Gloucester Ma recently http://www.flickr.com/photos/jrtrimble/6739536871/in/photostream/ I photographed another one, assuming different gull, in Gloucester also http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/image/140565267. Jeremiah's photos are much better than mine of course........ I am just learning, so as Mr. Johnson points out, a 1 to 2% occurrence is what some research has produced when looking into the matter. Suzanne Sullivan Wilmington MA swampy10 AT verizon.net On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 11:08 PM, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote: > Folks > > > >   Here is one (of many) that has me scratching my head. This bird at the > Cocoa Landfill in Florida looked like a Herring Gull in every way other than > the oddball wing pattern. Is this OK for a Herring? Could it just be an old > male? If this is instead a Nelson’s Gull (hybrid Glaucous x Herring), well > do they ever show distinctly black markings on the wing? I lean to this > being a Herring at the extreme in wing pattern. > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/alvarojaramillo/6774120309/in/photostream > > > > Found a California Gull here yesterday, two hybrid Lesser BB x Herring were > about, and lots of Lesser Black-backed Gulls. > > > > Good birding, > > > > Alvaro > > > > Alvaro Jaramillo > > alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com > > www.alvarosadventures.com > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Interesting Gull in San Francisco, California From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:42:57 -0800 Logan First pass has me thinking that these are Herring x Glaucous-winged hybrids, a bird that is surprisingly common in northern California in winter. Cheers, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Logan Kahle Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:27 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Interesting Gull in San Francisco, California Hi all, Yesterday, Noah Arthur and I, (two teenage birders from the Bay Area of California) found two interesting gulls in a parking lot in southwestern San Francisco. They do not appear to be one of the expected species for the area (Herring, Thayer's, Glaucous-winged, Western), and I have not come to a conclusion as to exactly what they are. Here are some photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/46812934 AT N04/sets/72157629063440093/ So, are they hybrids? Are they vagrants? Are they vagrant hybrids? I'll leave that up for you to decide. Happy gulling season. Good birding, Logan Kahle San Francisco Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Interesting Gull in San Francisco, California From: Logan Kahle <logan AT ARCHIVE.ORG> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:26:42 -0800 Hi all, Yesterday, Noah Arthur and I, (two teenage birders from the Bay Area of California) found two interesting gulls in a parking lot in southwestern San Francisco. They do not appear to be one of the expected species for the area (Herring, Thayer's, Glaucous-winged, Western), and I have not come to a conclusion as to exactly what they are. Here are some photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/46812934 AT N04/sets/72157629063440093/ So, are they hybrids? Are they vagrants? Are they vagrant hybrids? I'll leave that up for you to decide. Happy gulling season. Good birding, Logan Kahle San Francisco Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: Tom Johnson <tbj4 AT CORNELL.EDU> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:19:25 -0500 Alvaro, About 1-2% of the Herring Gulls in winter in Ithaca, NY looked similar to your Florida bird during the winters I spent there recently (with respect to the reduced black in the outer primaries). I also noticed several birds with similar wing patterns in Massachusetts and Maine this winter, but strangely, I rarely see them in southeastern Pennsylvania where I look at gulls every year. I think this is primarily a northeastern "thing" that becomes less frequent to the south and west - I have photographed several adult gulls with almost perfect Thayer's Gull wings that were in every other way wrong for Thayer's Gull (head/ bill structure totally fine for Herring). I've also wondered if they were hybrids, but I usually reject those thoughts (for better or worse) unless I see multiple characters outside the norm. These would be some fine candidates for tissue sampling... Thanks for sharing, Tom -- Tom Johnson Hummelstown, PA tbj4 AT cornell.edu Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Nelson's or Herring Gull? From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:08:24 -0800 Folks Here is one (of many) that has me scratching my head. This bird at the Cocoa Landfill in Florida looked like a Herring Gull in every way other than the oddball wing pattern. Is this OK for a Herring? Could it just be an old male? If this is instead a Nelson's Gull (hybrid Glaucous x Herring), well do they ever show distinctly black markings on the wing? I lean to this being a Herring at the extreme in wing pattern. http://www.flickr.com/photos/alvarojaramillo/6774120309/in/photostream Found a California Gull here yesterday, two hybrid Lesser BB x Herring were about, and lots of Lesser Black-backed Gulls. Good birding, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com www.alvarosadventures.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Smaller dark-backed gull in WI From: Jym Mooney & Carol Lee Hopkins <hopmoon AT MILWPC.COM> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:58:20 -0600 I photographed this gull today at Little Lake Buttes de Mort near Appleton WI. I assumed by its size that it was a Lesser Black-backed Gull, which is an expected rarity in our state during the winter. However, I was struck by the very prominent scapular and tertial crescents, both in the field and reviewing my photos. The photos also got me wondering about the wingtip projection, which doesn't seem long enough for a LBBG. Unfortunately, the only photos I got all look like this one. I did see the gull get up and walk a few feet once, and the legs appeared pink rather than yellow. After waiting for over 30 minutes I finally had to go get warmed up, and when I returned the gull had left and I did not relocate it in the area again. Are these variables expected within LBBG, or is this something else (Slaty-backed Gull has been suggested to me)? For size comparison, the other gulls in the photo are Herring Gulls. Thanks for your input. Jym Mooney, Milwaukee WI http://tinyurl.com/8xcd3gw Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Pale-tailed Herring Gull From: Peter Adriaens <p_adriaens AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:20:12 -0800 Hi David, I think the safest way to age gulls like this is to look at the primaries: their shape, colour and pattern. Often, just by looking at the pattern of the inner primaries, ageing Herring Gulls can be pretty straightforward. Kevin's bird has prominent dark subterminal markings there; these are all equally distinct on all inner primaries, which is consistent with 1st cycle. In 2nd-cycle birds, the pattern gradually diminishes inwards, often to the point that subterminal markings are virtually absent on P1-2(-3). Compare, for instance, to the inner primaries of these 2nd-cycle smiths: https://picasaweb.google.com/MGH271/AmericanHerringGullLarusArgentatusSmithsonianus#5161825728354882242 https://plus.google.com/photos/115659792470435170210/albums/5511349275654183601/5511349385503770130?banner=pwa https://plus.google.com/photos/115659792470435170210/albums/5511349275654183601/5511349423369938818?banner=pwa Furthermore, the outer primaries of 2nd cycle are usually a bit darker (blackish-brown), wider and more rounded at their tips than in the New York bird. The bird therefore looks like a definite 1st cycle to me, despite the plain wing coverts and scapulars. Kind regards, Peter >________________________________ > From: David Sibley >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 3:38 PM >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Pale-tailed Herring Gull > >Hi Kevin and all, > >I agree this fits in the range of variation of Herring Gull, but I have a hard time reconciling the pattern (or, more accurately, the lack of pattern) on the coverts and scapulars with a first-winter bird. I think a first-winter should still retain a lot of juvenal wing coverts in late December, with strong and regular dark and white checkering, and this bird shows none. Which suggests that it's a second-winter with relatively immature plumage for its age. > >Maybe I shouldn't put so much weight on the covert patterns, and I'll be interested to learn from what the more avid gull-watchers have to say, but wanted to put that idea into the mix. If it's a second-winter then the tail pattern is less unusual. > >David Sibley >Concord, MA >sibleyguides AT gmail.com > > > > >On Jan 26, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Kevin J. McGowan wrote: > >> I recently photographed a presumed smithsonianus Herring Gull in central New York with the most barred tail I have ever seen.  I have 10 photos of the bird at >> http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/Birds2011#5690267560362164290. >> >> Does anyone see anything else out of line with American Herring that would indicate some other taxon? >> >> Kevin >> >> >> Kevin J. McGowan >> Ithaca, NY >> kjm2 AT cornell.edu >> 607-254-2452 >> >> >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Pale-tailed Herring Gull From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON AT OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:43:42 -0800 I agree the coverts and tertials look pretty messy, like 2nd cycle, and the upperparts look like there's lots of bits of adult gray (which could also happen with post-juv molt), but I think I see first cycle coverts in there. The banding on the tail I associate with 1st cycle, as well as this much dark in the bill. I put my $ on 1st cycle for now. There are four features here I associate with hybridism with Glaucous, so I endorse Martin's theory of a Glaucous grandma back in there somewhere: 1) the tail seems to show a pale "shadow band" within the dark band (this is shown on some Kumlien's/Thayer's too) (it's not a normal band like in argenteus or vegae); 2) the outermost tail feathers are more marbled, like a white-winged gull; and 3) there's also a hint of a "shadow band" running up the primaries (especially evident on http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/Birds2011#5690269075531820242 and http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/Birds2011#5690269335950970418 ) 4) the overall icy flavor of the upperparts Steve Hampton, Ph.D. ________________ Resource Economist Office of Spill Prevention and Response California Dept of Fish and Game PO Box 944209 Sacramento, CA 94244-2090 ----------------------------------- (916) 323-4724 phone (916) 324-8829 fax Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Pale-tailed Herring Gull From: David Sibley <david_sibley AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:38:57 -0500 Hi Kevin and all, I agree this fits in the range of variation of Herring Gull, but I have a hard time reconciling the pattern (or, more accurately, the lack of pattern) on the coverts and scapulars with a first-winter bird. I think a first-winter should still retain a lot of juvenal wing coverts in late December, with strong and regular dark and white checkering, and this bird shows none. Which suggests that it's a second-winter with relatively immature plumage for its age. Maybe I shouldn't put so much weight on the covert patterns, and I'll be interested to learn from what the more avid gull-watchers have to say, but wanted to put that idea into the mix. If it's a second-winter then the tail pattern is less unusual. David Sibley Concord, MA sibleyguides AT gmail.com On Jan 26, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Kevin J. McGowan wrote: > I recently photographed a presumed smithsonianus Herring Gull in central New York with the most barred tail I have ever seen. I have 10 photos of the bird at > http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/Birds2011#5690267560362164290. > > Does anyone see anything else out of line with American Herring that would indicate some other taxon? > > Kevin > > > Kevin J. McGowan > Ithaca, NY > kjm2 AT cornell.edu > 607-254-2452 > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Pale-tailed Herring Gull From: Martin Reid <upupa AT AIRMAIL.NET> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:40:45 -0600 Dear Kevin/All, This looks like a first-cycle HERG-type that is within the (considerable) range of what we call smithsonianus: The underbody markings are blotchy but smooth and not barred or spotted-looking and this smooth dark blotching continues around the lower neck/uppermost mantle to form a dark shawl. The underwing coverts and especially the axillaries are smooth and not barred or speckled. The under and upper tail coverts are tightly-barred dark to look overall darkish. The pattern of the 2nd-generation scaps/mantle feathers is rather jumbled and irregular, as is that of the first-generation wing coverts (a feature of eastern smiths, IMO). The tertials are very plain-looking (but the tips have been worn off so we can't be sure of their original pattern). What looks non-typical (but perhaps in range of what we might call smithsonianus): The extent of pale barring in the base of the tail from above. The marbled pattern in the basal portion of R6 from above. The somewhat paler-than-normal tertials, outer primaries and outer tail. The thin pale edges to the tips of the outer primaries. In some images, a slight two-tone (paler basally) effect on the outer primaries and on the secondaries when spread, plus a similar effect on the distal unbarred dark tail band beyond the barring. I feel that this last feature suggests a subtle trauma-triggered "fault line" when the bird was still growing the juvenile flight feathers. See this more-obvious example: http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/hsmitp81.html - in this case the trauma happened a little earlier in the growth of the flight feathers such that the fault line is more-basal and thus the line on the secondaries is hidden by the tips of their coverts. All the other minor anomalies listed above suggest to me that this bird comes from a population of smithsonianus that carries within its gene pool a small lingering signature of past secondary contact with either Glaucous Gull or Thayer's Gull. I feel that there are many populations of smithsonianus that carry residual morphological indicators of secondary contact with a variety of other taxa (including Glaucous-winged, Slaty-backed and Vega in Alaska). My theory is that birds from such populations account for the bewildering variation we see in Texas, where banded birds and my personal observations indicate we get wintering birds from almost the entire longitudinal range of smithsonianus. All the best, Martin --- Martin Reid San Antonio www.martinreid.com On Jan 26, 2012, at Jan 26, 12:30 PM, Kevin J. McGowan wrote: > I recently photographed a presumed smithsonianus Herring Gull in central New York with the most barred tail I have ever seen. I have 10 photos of the bird at > http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/Birds2011#5690267560362164290. > > Does anyone see anything else out of line with American Herring that would indicate some other taxon? > > Kevin > > > Kevin J. McGowan > Ithaca, NY > kjm2 AT cornell.edu > 607-254-2452 > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Pale-tailed Herring Gull From: dave brown <dave.browne AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 16:47:21 -0330 I see birds like this in Newfoundland with some occasionally in fall/winter. We have to be careful because we do get European Herring Gulls on occasion. These gulls certainly do stand out from an average smithsonianus, but I think that's all they are, pale smithsonianus. In most cases, and as is the case with this bird, gulls with oddly barred tails like this individual, tend to be pale overall, but often have a contrasting brownish belly that is too smoothly patterned for argentatus. This bird also has unusually pale (although unpatterned) tertials and greater coverts,neither of which look right for argentatus, or other taxons. As well, the base I think the pale barring in this birds tail is the result of aberrant pigmentation, or maybe even just within variation for smithsonianus. I have some photos Herring Gulls similar to this that I will add to my blog, when I get the opportunity. I'll post here when I get them up. Cheers, Dave Brown http://birdingnewfoundland.blogspot.com/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Pale-tailed Herring Gull From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2 AT CORNELL.EDU> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:30:16 +0000 I recently photographed a presumed smithsonianus Herring Gull in central New York with the most barred tail I have ever seen. I have 10 photos of the bird at http://picasaweb.google.com/KevinJ.McGowan/Birds2011#5690267560362164290. Does anyone see anything else out of line with American Herring that would indicate some other taxon? Kevin Kevin J. McGowan Ithaca, NY kjm2 AT cornell.edu 607-254-2452 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: thayeri-kumlieni-glaucoides scale From: Amar Ayyash <amarayyash AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:26:08 -0800 Such a scoring system for these 3 taxa seems overdue, so thanks to Steve for taking the initiatvie. I enjoy using Howell and Dunn's table (35A.7) for adult Thayer's/Kumlien's types, but I've always felt a more detailed system that includes head/bill size and shape was needed. I'm sure the most challenging aspect of using Steve's suggestions will be assigning a 1 vs 2, or when to assign a 2 vs 3.   What I'd really like to see is some examples. Can we post some photos of a few individuals and then score them? For this to be most effective, maybe we can give folks a deadline to submit their scores and then compare the results. If scores differ radically, then the scoring system may need tweaking. If the scores are relatively similar, then we may have an "unscientific tool" that we can use as field observers.   Best, Amar Ayyash Frankfort IL         ________________________________ From: Steve Hampton To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:52 AM Subject: [BIRDWG01] thayeri-kumlieni-glaucoides scale Anticipating the usual flood of Kumlien's-like gulls in the west and Thayer's-like gulls in the east, I've put together a proposed thayeri-kumlieni-glaucoides scoring system at http://www.tertial.us/gulls/tkg.htm It's a first draft cut to develop some consensus about how we talk about and evaluate these things.  Feedback is welcome.  (I've already got ideas to improve it, but I want to hear more ideas.) Basically, it's a 4-point scale: 0 = glaucoides 1 = in between 2 = kumlieni 3 = in between 4 = thayeri evaluating 7 different features of first cycle birds.  So a maximum score of 28 is a classic Thayer's, while a minimum score of 0 is a perfect nominate glaucoides.  The key caveat is at the end: "even if we come up with a formula that satisfies most birders, there's still no guarantee we would be accurately placing birds in the correct category until further research, ideally tracking birds from the breeding grounds to the wintering grounds, is done." enjoy, Steve Hampton, Ph.D. ________________ Resource Economist Office of Spill Prevention and Response California Dept of Fish and Game PO Box 944209 Sacramento, CA 94244-2090 ----------------------------------- (916) 323-4724 phone (916) 324-8829 fax Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: thayeri-kumlieni-glaucoides scale From: Steve Hampton <SHAMPTON AT OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:52:17 -0800 Anticipating the usual flood of Kumlien's-like gulls in the west and Thayer's-like gulls in the east, I've put together a proposed thayeri-kumlieni-glaucoides scoring system at http://www.tertial.us/gulls/tkg.htm It's a first draft cut to develop some consensus about how we talk about and evaluate these things. Feedback is welcome. (I've already got ideas to improve it, but I want to hear more ideas.) Basically, it's a 4-point scale: 0 = glaucoides 1 = in between 2 = kumlieni 3 = in between 4 = thayeri evaluating 7 different features of first cycle birds. So a maximum score of 28 is a classic Thayer's, while a minimum score of 0 is a perfect nominate glaucoides. The key caveat is at the end: "even if we come up with a formula that satisfies most birders, there's still no guarantee we would be accurately placing birds in the correct category until further research, ideally tracking birds from the breeding grounds to the wintering grounds, is done." enjoy, Steve Hampton, Ph.D. ________________ Resource Economist Office of Spill Prevention and Response California Dept of Fish and Game PO Box 944209 Sacramento, CA 94244-2090 ----------------------------------- (916) 323-4724 phone (916) 324-8829 fax Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Field identification of Cassiar/Slate-colored/Oregon/Pink-sided Juncos From: Paul Hurtado <paul.j.hurtado AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:57:17 -0500 In the off chance others were interested in web resources about aging and sexing juncos, here's a decent page for Slate-colored Juncos: http://www.migrationresearch.org/mbo/id/scju.html Anyone else care to share other web resources (i.e. not the standard texts) for aging, sexing juncos? -Paul Hurtado Columbus, OH Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: An Oriole to ponder From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:28:13 +0000 As someone else who lives in S. Cal and has wrestled (often unsuccessfully) with this id issue, I would agree with the points Jay makes. I am not convinced that plumage features are all that useful for separating these two as I see variation in Hooded Orioles in the extent and tone of yellow below, how prominent the wingbars are, etc. There is a lot of variation in Hooded Oriole bills length and curvature as well. A fair number of Orchards are obvious on size alone and, as others have pointed out in the past here, it's not uncommon to initially think an Orchard is a warbler. The largest Orchards (males) overlap just about with the smallest Hoodeds (females) so that can make things trickier. I think these two are one of the most intractable field id problems in the US and photos (which don't convey size well) are really hard. -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jay K Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 6:52 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] An Oriole to ponder David, Living in southern CA, I of course see a lot of Hooded Orioles (and we get our share of migrant/wintering Orchards as well, of which I am very familiar from living in the east for many years) in various plumages and I don't see anything inconsistent with Hooded with this bird. The bill seems fine for Hooded to me - on the longer and more substantial side than what I would expect for most Orchards (though there is overlap), but shorter than many other Hoodeds I have seen. Also, the wingbars (especially lower one) of Orchards tend to be fairly strong, and from the photo it looks like the lower one is fairly scant - another feature more consistent with Hooded. The wings themselves should perhaps be a bit darker and more contrasting with the back in Orchard, though the angle of the photo could reduce this. Regarding the "lemony" coloration mentioned on your site, as someone who recently took up photographing birds, I know that the coloration of the images can be significantly changed with very little adjustment, so that a warmer look can be generated without a lot of tinkering. I'm not suggesting this was done here, but just mentioning it as a caveat. Regarding the apparent dark feathering about the auriculars, I would suggest the stong possibility that the bird has been feasting in many of the exotic flowering plants we have in SoCal, which very often stains the feathers with a black, waxy substance that often results in affected feathers being lost altogether in the worst cases. Additionally, July would be a very significant record for San Diego, as the earliest migrants have shown no earlier than the very end of August as far as I am aware, with most tending toward later in the season. I am interested in others' thoughts, especially if there is disagreement. Jay Keller, San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: David Irons Sent: Jan 23, 2012 4:56 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] An Oriole to ponder Greetings All, I know that there was just a lively debate on another Icterid, but I find the exchanges around these birds to be very educational. I have a photo of an oriole that was taken in San Diego Co., CA in July of last year. I would welcome feedback on this bird. I've created a short piece with photos that is now up on the BirdFellow.com online journal. I only have one photo of this bird, but I am trying to get more from the photographer. It may well just be a Hooded Oriole, which would be expected given the location and date, but it just doesn't look right to me. Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this bird. If it's not too much trouble, it would be great if you could cut and paste any posts to ID-Frontiers as a comment on our site as well. Doing so allows us to archive the discussion about this bird along with the photo and journal piece. My thoughts and the photo can be seen at the link below. http://www.birdfellow.com/journal/2012/01/23/a_oriole_to_puzzle_over Dave Irons Content Editor BirdFellow.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: A tentative field mark for separating Pacific/Winter Wren From: Chuck Sexton <gcwarbler AT AUSTIN.RR.COM> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:47:22 -0600 A number of birders in AZ, NM, and TX are facing the identification challenge of distinguishing Pacific Wren (PAWR) and Winter Wren (WIWR) where either might occur--regularly or as a vagrant. Because of age and seasonal variation in both species, this might not be as straightforward as current field guides suggest. After examination of nearly a hundred images of both species online and studying two interesting birds on Willis Creek, Williamson Co., TX, over the past month, I'm offering a tentative field ID hint. In my own subjective tests, the criterion below has been applied to sets of unknown photography with 90 to 100% consistency (given usable images). I'd like some feedback from a wider array of field observers to see if this character has any utility. First I review the standard litany for one aspect of separating the two species: Underparts Coloration: There is much discussion about the underparts of the two species. PAWR is usually stated to be richer, buffier, darker, more uniformly colored, etc. WIWR is paler below, supposedly showing more contrast between the throat and breast. Since each species is somewhat variable and there may be age variation in these colors, I have had trouble deciding what birds are buffier or which have more throat-breast contrast. Some WIWR are rather buffy in the throat area; some PAWR, particularly those photographed in bright light, can be rather pale buffy underneath and almost all PAWR show a slight gradation of color from the chin, through the throat, to the lower breast. For these reasons, the "richness" and "uniformity" of the PAWR underparts are qualitative terms that I have a hard time judging. So I came up with the following idea: Most all PAWR and WIWR show stark barring on the flanks made up of alternating black and buff/whitish bars. What seems apparent to my eye is the relative shade (richness or brightness) of the throat color on any individual bird *as contrasted to the pale base color of the barred feathers on the flanks and belly*: Pacific Wren: The buff/brown color of the throat of PAWRs is consistently darker or richer than the *palest portions of the barring on the flanks*. Birds are commonly buff on the chin and throat with white or very pale buff as the palest ground color on the bars. This contrast is evident even where photography is not crisp or close. Winter Wren: Most WIWR have a whitish or very pale buff or pale gray throat, grading into a slightly darker hue on the breast, BUT the pale ground color of the barring on the flanks is consistently about the same shade as the throat color: Whitish on the throat, whitish inbetween the dark barring, or light buffy on the throat and light buffy as the ground color on the barred flanks. There is little or NO contrast between the throat and the pale base color of the barred flanks. Judging these contrasts on the internet requires good photography with a side or quarter view which shows both the throat color and the barred flanks (not in shade!). Whether or not this is a usable field character probably depends on the views and the activity of the bird, since many of our views are from above looking down on a wren...and these little buggers move fast! I invite you to look over any available photography you wish and even try this in the field if you have the opportunity. I look forward to any feedback. Still in study mode... Chuck Sexton Austin, TX Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: RFI: Recordings of non-territorial calls of Winter and Pacific Wren From: Chuck Sexton <gcwarbler AT AUSTIN.RR.COM> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:22:10 -0600 This is the first of two posts on the ID challenge of distinguishing Pacific and Winter Wrens, particularly for occurrences out of their expected ranges. The accumulation of a number of possible Pacific Wren sightings in New Mexico and Texas over the past few months has prompted a number of us to really dig into this problem. For instance, we are studying a bird on Willis Creek, near Granger Lake, Williamson Co., TX, which looks like a textbook Pacific Wren. We have recorded some of its sounds but are getting mixed messages from various listeners and reviewers. What is apparent is that the diversity of non-territorial calls of Winter and Pacific Wren--both within and between species--are poorly described in the exising literature and under-appreciated in the field. I am undertaking a basic study of such vocalizations based on available recordings. I have downloaded examples of all "trills" and "calls" (non-territorial songs) of both species from the xeno- canto.org website available as of this date and I am contacting the Macaulay Library at Cornell to gain further examples. I will be subjecting these sounds to detailed examination with Raven software. RFI: If you or someone you know has good digital recordings of non- territorial calls (at any season) of either the Winter Wren or Pacific Wren which have not been uploaded to one of the aforementioned databases, please contact me off-forum for consideration of including them in the present study. In particular, I need: 1. Digital files, preferably in .mp3 or .aif formats or easily convertible to such formats. 2. Recordings must have a definite recording date and detailed location. 3. Recordings should be made of *positively* identified birds (by clear sighting and/or photography), but see next note. 4. Recordings of uncertain or unproved identity are useful as an experimental set. These include potential out-of-range occurrences and recordings where either species might occur regularly. The level of ID certainty is an important variable with any sample. 5. A glaring geographical need is for calls and other non- territorial song sounds from Pacific Wrens of the T. p. salebrosus population in the northern Rockies region of Idaho, Montana, and eastern Washington. I have found numbers of photos of such individuals but no recordings of calls. Thanks in advance for any new info. Watch for a second post in a short while about a new tentative field mark for separating these species. Chuck Sexton Austin, TX Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: An Oriole to ponder From: Jay K <azure.jay AT EARTHLINK.NET> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:51:33 -0500 David, Living in southern CA, I of course see a lot of Hooded Orioles (and we get our share of migrant/wintering Orchards as well, of which I am very familiar from living in the east for many years) in various plumages and I don't see anything inconsistent with Hooded with this bird. The bill seems fine for Hooded to me - on the longer and more substantial side than what I would expect for most Orchards (though there is overlap), but shorter than many other Hoodeds I have seen. Also, the wingbars (especially lower one) of Orchards tend to be fairly strong, and from the photo it looks like the lower one is fairly scant - another feature more consistent with Hooded. The wings themselves should perhaps be a bit darker and more contrasting with the back in Orchard, though the angle of the photo could reduce this. Regarding the "lemony" coloration mentioned on your site, as someone who recently took up photographing birds, I know that the coloration of the images can be significantly changed with very little adjustment, so that a warmer look can be generated without a lot of tinkering. I'm not suggesting this was done here, but just mentioning it as a caveat. Regarding the apparent dark feathering about the auriculars, I would suggest the stong possibility that the bird has been feasting in many of the exotic flowering plants we have in SoCal, which very often stains the feathers with a black, waxy substance that often results in affected feathers being lost altogether in the worst cases. Additionally, July would be a very significant record for San Diego, as the earliest migrants have shown no earlier than the very end of August as far as I am aware, with most tending toward later in the season. I am interested in others' thoughts, especially if there is disagreement. Jay Keller, San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: David Irons Sent: Jan 23, 2012 4:56 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] An Oriole to ponder Greetings All, I know that there was just a lively debate on another Icterid, but I find the exchanges around these birds to be very educational. I have a photo of an oriole that was taken in San Diego Co., CA in July of last year. I would welcome feedback on this bird. I've created a short piece with photos that is now up on the BirdFellow.com online journal. I only have one photo of this bird, but I am trying to get more from the photographer. It may well just be a Hooded Oriole, which would be expected given the location and date, but it just doesn't look right to me. Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this bird. If it's not too much trouble, it would be great if you could cut and paste any posts to ID-Frontiers as a comment on our site as well. Doing so allows us to archive the discussion about this bird along with the photo and journal piece. My thoughts and the photo can be seen at the link below. http://www.birdfellow.com/journal/2012/01/23/a_oriole_to_puzzle_over Dave Irons Content Editor BirdFellow.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: An Oriole to ponder From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 00:56:17 +0000 Greetings All, I know that there was just a lively debate on another Icterid, but I find the exchanges around these birds to be very educational. I have a photo of an oriole that was taken in San Diego Co., CA in July of last year. I would welcome feedback on this bird. I've created a short piece with photos that is now up on the BirdFellow.com online journal. I only have one photo of this bird, but I am trying to get more from the photographer. It may well just be a Hooded Oriole, which would be expected given the location and date, but it just doesn't look right to me. Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this bird. If it's not too much trouble, it would be great if you could cut and paste any posts to ID-Frontiers as a comment on our site as well. Doing so allows us to archive the discussion about this bird along with the photo and journal piece. My thoughts and the photo can be seen at the link below. http://www.birdfellow.com/journal/2012/01/23/a_oriole_to_puzzle_over Dave IronsContent Editor BirdFellow.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 13:15:35 -0800 Birders, Separate from the direct issue of this specific bird in Florida, I may be way off course here, but in my opinion blackbirds (Icterids) are amongst the most ignored group of birds in this continent. I am one of the few that finds them fascinating, particularly as I am interested in bird behavior, and there is perhaps no other family of birds on our continent that has such a diverse repertoire of behavior. Liking them means I look at them as much as I can, and often when doing so I get odd looks from birders as if I am wasting my time. It happens all the time! Photographing female Boat-tails at the Space Coast Festival I get folks driving by with quizzical looks, or faces of pity for me. I find this curious for several reasons. 1) Most flocking blackbirds do not hide, they are out there to be looked at, scoped and studied...just like shorebirds or gulls. 2) Some of the most vexing ID problems occur in this group - female cowbirds, large grackles, tricolored vs. Red-winged, Euphagus blackbirds etc. then there are the orioles too, but folks do look at them more closely I admit. 3) They are common and a great way to test/train/practice one's observation skills, molt and ageing criteria, and identification criteria 4) Vagrants occur, probably more so than people think. Shiny Cowbirds have probably already occurred in most eastern states and provinces. Are they missing from your state list? Well, then go out and find one ;-) Since Peter Burke and I worked on a book on this group some years ago we get a lot of photos and requests for identifications of these photos. You don't know how many "Tricolored" Blackbirds are sent to us which end up being regular Red-wings with faded epaulet borders. Female Brewer's with yellow eyes is another one that we see. These issues are common, they are not weirdo birds, but part of normal variation (if you stare at enough blackbirds that is). To us these experiences underscore that folks are not looking that hard at blackbirds. What is the point of this note? Well, just a general call to stare at blackbirds! There is still a lot to learn, vagrants to find, and fun to be had. You just have to open your minds to them! Who is going to find a Greater Antillean Grackle in Florida? Someone who is not ignoring blackbirds at the McDonald's parking lot, that's who! Good birding. Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo alvaro AT alvarosadventures.com www.alvarosadventures.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Listowner message From: Vincent P Lucas <vplucas AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:52:28 -0500 All: As the original poster of this ID dilemma, I'll say this and then I'm totally done with this discussion. In the original link to the photo on my Flickr page, all of the sighting data is there with the photo i.e. "Pa-hay-okee, Everglades National Park, Miami-Dade Co., Florida on 11/22/2008". I wasn't aware of the other photo and video of this bird, if indeed it is the same Rusty Blackbird, by Larry Manfredi linked to by Brian Ahern. I was told that there were actually two Rusty Blackbirds at this location during that period and basically, I was trying to ascertain if this in fact was a Rusty Blackbird (I made it clear that I thought it was from the start). I had no other photo to offer. I was lucky to get this one when I did. As far as "local experts" go, I have been birding south Florida all year round for over 15 years so I would put myself in that category. In conclusion, had I known what "strife" this ID challenge would cause among various folks and "experts" real or perceived, I never would have posted it in the first place. I'm finished with this discussion. Thanks to everyone who participated. It was an eye opener and a learning experience for me on many different levels. Vince Vincent P. Lucas Naples, FL vplucas AT comcast.net On Jan 22, 2012, at 2:57 PM, Will Russell wrote: > First of all I’d like to compliment Kevin Karlson. I see his > willingness to publically challenge a formidable array of experts as > intellectually courageous rather than foolish. It matters not at > all that he was wrong. > > I write to support his larger point. I encourage people who ask ID- > F for id assistance to give in their initial post full details as > known to them about the bird in question including links to > additional images if any and the conclusions of local experts and > knowledgeable others who have seen the images or the bird in life. > In my view, this makes the review process more efficient and raises > the level of the general discourse. Thanks. > > Will Russell > willrussell AT comcast.net > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Listowner message From: Will Russell <willrussell AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:57:04 -0700 First of all I'd like to compliment Kevin Karlson. I see his willingness to publically challenge a formidable array of experts as intellectually courageous rather than foolish. It matters not at all that he was wrong. I write to support his larger point. I encourage people who ask ID-F for id assistance to give in their initial post full details as known to them about the bird in question including links to additional images if any and the conclusions of local experts and knowledgeable others who have seen the images or the bird in life. In my view, this makes the review process more efficient and raises the level of the general discourse. Thanks. Will Russell willrussell AT comcast.net Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: baro AT PDX.EDU Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 10:02:54 -0800 Kevin- Well I was very glad to see your email below. I did a lot of birding in Florida in 1966-70 when i was a student at U of F. After reading the previous posts on the Blackbird ID of this bird I thought to myself: Wow, I've been gone a long time. I would never in a million years thought this was a Rusty Blackbird. I wouldn't have looked at it twice. So, I feel a little vindicated by your comments with which I certainly agree. Bob OBrien Portland Oregon Quoting Kevin Karlson : > To all: > I forgot to mention in my last post for those outside of the US that > the Atlantic race of Boat-tailed Grackle has yellowish eyes like the > bird in your photo. These birds breed virtually in my backyard, and > I see them all year round, and your bird is a dead ringer both in > body, head, bill and tail structure as well as plumage for this > race. The very thick legs on your bird are also nothing like the > skinny, tooth-pick like legs on Rusty Blackbird. This bird is no > hybrid, but a perfectly fine Atlantic Boat-tailed Grackle. Kevin > Karlson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vincent P Lucas" > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 1:11:17 PM > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? > > All: > > > I have received quite a few comments about the Rusty > Blackbird/Boat-tailed Grackle. So far, the majority sides with Rusty > Blackbird and several others with Boat-tailed Grackle. One person > suggests that it might be a hybrid of some kind. Alvaro Jaramillo & > Peter Burke, authors of __ New World Blackbirds__ both are calling > it a female Rusty Blackbird. Their book is here: > > > http://www.amazon.com/New-World-Blackbirds-Alvaro-Jaramillo/dp/0691006806/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327082366&sr=1-3 > > > I am taking the liberty of posting their responses here. I hope > neither of them object! > > > > > > Vincent, > > > > > > This looks like a female Rusty. The coloration including the > cinnamon eyebrow, pale eye, rufous tertial edges and grey rump. All > perfectly fine for Rusty Blackbird. > > Regards, > > Alvaro > > > Alvaro Jaramillo > chucao AT coastside.net > Half Moon Bay, California > > > > and > > > > > > Vincent > I looked at the photo this morning, thanks for posting. I have no > hesitation in calling this a female Rusty Blackbird. I think the > lighting, being as dark as it is, caused some observers to see it as > something akin to a Boat-tailed Grackle but if you go down to the > shape of the bird I don’t see how one could see it as anything else > but Rusty Blackbird. The bill is nothing as long and powerful nor > hooked like a Grackle’s and it is not nearly long legged enough. The > points Alvaro makes about plumage I completely agree with as well – > including the nice bluish gray rump that contrasts with the rest of > the back. One never sees such a contrast in color like this on any > female Quiscalis grackle in the neotropics. > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > Peter > psburke AT rogers.com > > > > > > > > > I am still open to suggestions/opinions but it looks like I'm > sticking with my initial call of Rusty Blackbird unless a VERY > convincing argument is otherwise presented. Thanks for the comments! > > > Vince > > > > Vincent P. Lucas > Naples, FL > vplucas AT comcast.net > http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/ > > > > On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Vincent P Lucas wrote: > > > > > Have a look at the bird at this link which was taken at Pa-hay-okee, > Everglades National Park, Miami-Dade Co., Florida on 11/22/2008. > What are your thoughts about the ID? I claim it's a Rusty Blackbird > because the iris is white/yellow (Boat-tailed Grackles in Florida > have brown eyes except in NE FL and perhaps in the extreme NW FL > Panhandle), the short tail, bill length, tertials, and general > "jizz". I'd appreciate any thoughts & opinions but please give > details as to why you think it is one species over the other. Thanks. > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/3219297833/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird From: David Roemer <dlroemer AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 09:51:03 -0800 Boat-tailed Grackle was the first thing that came to mind upon viewing the image due to structure.  But as I studied it, I realized that the bird was alarmed and had flattened its plumage.  After studying it with that in mind, I would have voted for Rusty Blackbird.  When alarmed, birds typically flatten their feathers which can lend an entirely different feel to their structure.  If this bird had been relaxed, with its feathers held as ususal when the image was obtained, it would not have looked as long and slender.  The head would have appeared rounder and the bill proportionately shorter.  The way head shape in scaup and other waterfowl changes with attitude is a good example of this.   Another clue in favor of Rusty for me was the seemingly grayish cast to the uppertail coverts in comparison to the back.   This has been a good learning experience and I hope no one is hesitant to post their opinions in the future.  Discussions like this is what keeps knowledge advancing.   David Roemer Bowling Green, Ky.  Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird From: Patrick Santinello <patrick AT QPROCORP.COM> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 08:56:13 -0500 Sorry, I see the original email also states 2008, my apologies From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Kevin Karlson Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 9:14 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Rusty Blackbird all: after making a complete fool of myself by commenting so strongly about a single bad posture photo of this Rusty Blackbird, I can't help but wonder why all the information about this bird and its ID were not provided in this belated post that occurred two months after this bird was found and identified by my friend Gavin Bieber, and why was this bad posture photo posted in the first place when the ID of this bird was not in question anymore in Florida? When I went to the site that Brian Ahern posted, it provided information about Gavin Bieber having identified this bird in the field. I would not have questioned Gavin's id of this bird in field conditions, as he is a great birder with a fine eye for details and structure. I would have looked for another photo, possibly, but could not go against Gavin's field ID. I could have saved myself a load of embarassment if proper information had been posted, including that this bird was found in November. I feel like I will never comment on a single, bad posture photo again to avoid this type of screw up on my part. My apologies to all those that I argued with, but I truly felt that I was on the right page. Kevin Karlson Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird From: Patrick Santinello <patrick AT QPROCORP.COM> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 08:54:36 -0500 Another point is that in the Photo ID’d by Gavin, the date is from 2008, not 2011……I too would agree that this is quite obviously a Rusty Blackbird. Without try to be inflammatory at all, are we sure this is the same bird? From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Kevin Karlson Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 9:14 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Rusty Blackbird all: after making a complete fool of myself by commenting so strongly about a single bad posture photo of this Rusty Blackbird, I can't help but wonder why all the information about this bird and its ID were not provided in this belated post that occurred two months after this bird was found and identified by my friend Gavin Bieber, and why was this bad posture photo posted in the first place when the ID of this bird was not in question anymore in Florida? When I went to the site that Brian Ahern posted, it provided information about Gavin Bieber having identified this bird in the field. I would not have questioned Gavin's id of this bird in field conditions, as he is a great birder with a fine eye for details and structure. I would have looked for another photo, possibly, but could not go against Gavin's field ID. I could have saved myself a load of embarassment if proper information had been posted, including that this bird was found in November. I feel like I will never comment on a single, bad posture photo again to avoid this type of screw up on my part. My apologies to all those that I argued with, but I truly felt that I was on the right page. Kevin Karlson Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: Patrick Santinello <patrick AT QPROCORP.COM> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 08:41:10 -0500 I too sent a message to the OP that this bird would not even warrant a second thought in the field as anything other than a Boat-tailed Grackle, to my eye. Some of the points I made at that time mirrored some of Kevin's comments as to the angle of the forehead to the bill and the bill itself being heavy based and too large for Rusty BB. The size of the bill as a percentage of the head in its entirety is far too large. Good Birding all. Patrick Santinello Eastport, NY Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Rusty Blackbird From: Kevin Karlson <karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 02:13:53 +0000 all: after making a complete fool of myself by commenting so strongly about a single bad posture photo of this Rusty Blackbird, I can't help but wonder why all the information about this bird and its ID were not provided in this belated post that occurred two months after this bird was found and identified by my friend Gavin Bieber, and why was this bad posture photo posted in the first place when the ID of this bird was not in question anymore in Florida? When I went to the site that Brian Ahern posted, it provided information about Gavin Bieber having identified this bird in the field. I would not have questioned Gavin's id of this bird in field conditions, as he is a great birder with a fine eye for details and structure. I would have looked for another photo, possibly, but could not go against Gavin's field ID. I could have saved myself a load of embarassment if proper information had been posted, including that this bird was found in November. I feel like I will never comment on a single, bad posture photo again to avoid this type of screw up on my part. My apologies to all those that I argued with, but I truly felt that I was on the right page. Kevin Karlson Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: link to additional photo of Rusy Blackbird/Boat-tailed Grackle from ENP, FL. From: Kevin Karlson <karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 01:43:26 +0000 Brian and all: If this is the same bird that is posted in the other e-mail, I totally concede to Rusty Blackbird. They say "you won't get fooled again", but obviously it happened again. A single photo can be misleading rather than helpful at times, and I would have lost my first born child if I did not see this photo and video. I feel like giving up on commenting on a single photo, as the other photo just did not fit the bill for Rusty, yet this one truly does. And if I heard that Gavin Bieber had seen and identified this bird in the field, I would not have commented on the bird at all. Sorry for the strong arguments, but I was convinced until I saw this other photo. Shit on Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Ahern" To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 8:29:35 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] link to additional photo of Rusy Blackbird/Boat-tailed Grackle from ENP, FL. Hi All, For what it's worth an additional photo and a small video of the bird can be found at the link below: http://southfloridabirding.com/html/recent_rarities..htm You will need to scroll down to almost the bottom 1/3 of the page (after Zenaida Dove, before Least Grebe). Sometimes having a different angle can certainly help... Best, Brian Ahern Tampa Bay, FL. BrianAhern AT aol.com Photos: www.pbase.com/brianahern Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: Rob Parsons <parsons8 AT MYMTS.NET> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 19:34:01 -0600 Hi all, I think John Sterling makes an excellent point regarding how our perceptions of birds from photos can be the very devil. I used to correspond with a birder who I have a great deal of respect for and he once said he really hated commenting on single photographs of a bird. I can understand sometimes one photo is all you're going to be able to get and sometimes not even that! If there were other photos of this bird, I would bet this dissension would very quickly dissipate. There are a number of birders who I have a great deal of respect for in both camps on this one and I think it demonstrates all too well how one photo can be misleading. Firmly on the fence, Rob Parsons Winnipeg, MB CANADA parsons8 AT mts.net Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: link to additional photo of Rusy Blackbird/Boat-tailed Grackle from ENP, FL. From: Brian Ahern <BrianAhern AT AOL.COM> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 20:29:35 -0500 Hi All, For what it's worth an additional photo and a small video of the bird can be found at the link below: _http://southfloridabirding.com/html/recent_rarities..htm_ (http://southfloridabirding.com/html/recent_rarities..htm) You will need to scroll down to almost the bottom 1/3 of the page (after Zenaida Dove, before Least Grebe). Sometimes having a different angle can certainly help... Best, Brian Ahern Tampa Bay, FL. BrianAhern AT aol.com Photos: _www.pbase.com/brianahern_ (http://www.pbase.com/brianahern) Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: John Sterling <jsterling AT WAVECABLE.COM> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 17:21:39 -0800 My first and long-lasting impression of the bird in the photograph was that it is a grackle. Photographs can be devilish though, but I saw nothing about the shape of the bird that fits Rusty Blackbird. The overall shape looked wrong, the tail looked too long, the head shape was wrong, and the bill was too large, thick and lacked the shape of a Rusty's bill. I admit that the plumage characteristics looked better for Rusty Blackbird, but this bird looked way too much like a grackle to me. I am sure that if most of us saw this bird in the field, there'd be no question on the identification. SIngle photographs scare me as they've fooled me in the past and can distort one's perception. But I agreed with Karlson on his assessment of this bird, but keep reading...... OK, so I took another look at the photo with an open mind to try to challenge my impressions of the bird. Wow, the eye looks too large in proportion to the head to be a grackle. The bill looks too slender at the base to be a grackle. The tail length seems to be within the range of Rusty Blackbird. This is beginning to make more sense to me--the shape and structure fitting the Rusty Blackbird plumage. I am now convinced that the bird is a Rusty Blackbird even though the photo shows a bit of distortion on the bird's true shape. Didn't I already mention that perceptions of birds in photos can be devilish? Again, if we saw this bird in the field, we wouldn't be having this discussion as the identification would be obvious. John John Sterling 26 Palm Ave Woodland, CA 95695 530 908-3836 jsterling AT wavecable.com www.sterlingbirds.com (photos, classes, tours, county birding) On Jan 21, 2012, at 4:36 PM, Kevin Karlson wrote: > all: > I added one last photo of a male Rusty in nonbreeding plumage from NJ in January to show its typical compact, bottom heavy body shape with short, straight pointed bill, rounded head with eye set way below the crown, and short, square tail. Here is the link:http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Songbirds/Icterids/Rusty+Blackbird_+male+nonbreeding_+NJ_+Jan.jpg.html > > I have also received private e-mails from good birders that echo my feelings about the previous comments about this bird, but I hope that some of you will post your comments online so that we all can learn from this ID. > Kevin Karlson > From: "Vincent P Lucas" > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 1:11:17 PM > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? > > All: > > I have received quite a few comments about the Rusty Blackbird/Boat-tailed Grackle. So far, the majority sides with Rusty Blackbird and several others with Boat-tailed Grackle. One person suggests that it might be a hybrid of some kind. Alvaro Jaramillo & Peter Burke, authors of __ New World Blackbirds__ both are calling it a female Rusty Blackbird. Their book is here: > > http://www.amazon.com/New-World-Blackbirds-Alvaro-Jaramillo/dp/0691006806/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327082366&sr=1-3 > > I am taking the liberty of posting their responses here. I hope neither of them object! > > Vincent, > > This looks like a female Rusty. The coloration including the cinnamon eyebrow, pale eye, rufous tertial edges and grey rump. All perfectly fine for Rusty Blackbird. > > Regards, > > Alvaro > > Alvaro Jaramillo > chucao AT coastside.net > Half Moon Bay, California > > and > > Vincent > I looked at the photo this morning, thanks for posting. I have no hesitation in calling this a female Rusty Blackbird. I think the lighting, being as dark as it is, caused some observers to see it as something akin to a Boat-tailed Grackle but if you go down to the shape of the bird I don’t see how one could see it as anything else but Rusty Blackbird. The bill is nothing as long and powerful nor hooked like a Grackle’s and it is not nearly long legged enough. The points Alvaro makes about plumage I completely agree with as well – including the nice bluish gray rump that contrasts with the rest of the back. One never sees such a contrast in color like this on any female Quiscalis grackle in the neotropics. > > Hope this helps. > > Peter > psburke AT rogers.com > > > I am still open to suggestions/opinions but it looks like I'm sticking with my initial call of Rusty Blackbird unless a VERY convincing argument is otherwise presented. Thanks for the comments! > > Vince > > Vincent P. Lucas > Naples, FL > vplucas AT comcast.net > http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/ > > On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Vincent P Lucas wrote: > > Have a look at the bird at this link which was taken at Pa-hay-okee, Everglades National Park, Miami-Dade Co., Florida on 11/22/2008. What are your thoughts about the ID? I claim it's a Rusty Blackbird because the iris is white/yellow (Boat-tailed Grackles in Florida have brown eyes except in NE FL and perhaps in the extreme NW FL Panhandle), the short tail, bill length, tertials, and general "jizz". I'd appreciate any thoughts & opinions but please give details as to why you think it is one species over the other. Thanks. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/3219297833/ > > > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: Michael Richardson <mrtree AT KOS.NET> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 19:52:12 -0500 To my eye the original photo shows a birds with a long tail and a long, decurved bill. In structure the bird looks like a boat-tailed grackle rather than a rusty balckbird. This bird is long and thin rather than the shorter blackbird with a short, cone-like, bill. Michael Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: Kevin Karlson <karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 00:36:43 +0000 all: I added one last photo of a male Rusty in nonbreeding plumage from NJ in January to show its typical compact, bottom heavy body shape with short, straight pointed bill, rounded head with eye set way below the crown, and short, square tail. Here is the link: http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Songbirds/Icterids/Rusty+Blackbird_+male+nonbreeding_+NJ_+Jan.jpg.html I have also received private e-mails from good birders that echo my feelings about the previous comments about this bird, but I hope that some of you will post your comments online so that we all can learn from this ID. Kevin Karlson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vincent P Lucas" To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 1:11:17 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? All: I have received quite a few comments about the Rusty Blackbird/Boat-tailed Grackle. So far, the majority sides with Rusty Blackbird and several others with Boat-tailed Grackle. One person suggests that it might be a hybrid of some kind. Alvaro Jaramillo & Peter Burke, authors of __ New World Blackbirds__ both are calling it a female Rusty Blackbird. Their book is here: http://www.amazon.com/New-World-Blackbirds-Alvaro-Jaramillo/dp/0691006806/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327082366&sr=1-3 I am taking the liberty of posting their responses here. I hope neither of them object! Vincent, This looks like a female Rusty. The coloration including the cinnamon eyebrow, pale eye, rufous tertial edges and grey rump. All perfectly fine for Rusty Blackbird. Regards, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California and Vincent I looked at the photo this morning, thanks for posting. I have no hesitation in calling this a female Rusty Blackbird. I think the lighting, being as dark as it is, caused some observers to see it as something akin to a Boat-tailed Grackle but if you go down to the shape of the bird I don’t see how one could see it as anything else but Rusty Blackbird. The bill is nothing as long and powerful nor hooked like a Grackle’s and it is not nearly long legged enough. The points Alvaro makes about plumage I completely agree with as well – including the nice bluish gray rump that contrasts with the rest of the back. One never sees such a contrast in color like this on any female Quiscalis grackle in the neotropics. Hope this helps. Peter psburke AT rogers.com I am still open to suggestions/opinions but it looks like I'm sticking with my initial call of Rusty Blackbird unless a VERY convincing argument is otherwise presented. Thanks for the comments! Vince Vincent P. Lucas Naples, FL vplucas AT comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/ On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Vincent P Lucas wrote: Have a look at the bird at this link which was taken at Pa-hay-okee, Everglades National Park, Miami-Dade Co., Florida on 11/22/2008. What are your thoughts about the ID? I claim it's a Rusty Blackbird because the iris is white/yellow (Boat-tailed Grackles in Florida have brown eyes except in NE FL and perhaps in the extreme NW FL Panhandle), the short tail, bill length, tertials, and general "jizz". I'd appreciate any thoughts & opinions but please give details as to why you think it is one species over the other. Thanks. http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/3219297833/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: Kevin McLaughlin <kam50 AT SHAW.CA> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 18:45:47 -0500 Peter et al. This basic plumaged blackbird pretty much resembles what Alvaro used to see and Peter and I still regularly see as a Rusty Blackbird in southern Ontario in fall and winter. A big part of the problem in assessing this photograph is that the bird is large in the image, with nothing to compare it to.Casting that side, I see a fairly diminutive bird with a slender, relatively short bill and a narrow, comparatively short tail. The head looks rather small and the bright white eye is proportionately large in the head. I also see a buffish eyebrow and throat, set off by a broad, somewhat slaty loral/auricular region. I can only venture that this may be a definitive basic male as the vent and side of the breast look blackish. I must grant however that shadow may have a role to play here. Kevin McLaughlin Hamilton, Ontario. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Pyle" To: Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? > Hi Kevin and all - > > I had earlier responded briefly to Vincent that I was also leaning to > Rusty Blackbird despite not knowing either species well. I wouldn't say it > looks nothing like a Rusty when you can easily find similar images like > this: > > http://www.fws.gov/northdakotafieldoffice/images/Rusty%20Blackbird.jpg > (presumbaly from North Dakota so presumably not a Boat-tailed Grackle) > > Kevin is correct that the bill of the Florida bird seems on the large and > curved side for Rusty, but it also has a notch on the tomium that seems > more typical of Rusty than Boat-tailed Grackle, and I don't see the > gradated rectrices I'd expect of a grackle. > > Details of plumage seem to match Rusty better than Boat-tailed to me as > well. Boat-tailed Grackles should not be in juvenal plumage in November > (they have a complete preformative molt in August) and usually appear more > worn-looking than the Florida bird by late November. > > For what I know it could have been a Boat-tailed Grackle and not a Rusty > Blackbird but I don't think the latter species should be eliminated so > readily. > > Peter > >> Vincent and all: >> If the link that you provide in this e-mail is the photo of the bird that >> people have been commenting on, I am surprised that anyone would call >> this >> bird a Rusty Blackbird. It is all wrong for a Rusty in so many ways, but >> especially the very long tail that has a rounded tip and is segmented, >> unlike Rusty's short, square tail; long legs like a grackle versus short >> legs on Rusty; heavy, long bill with very deep base and super decurved >> upper culmen that is nothing like Rusty's shorter, much thinner, very >> pointed bill, and overall body structure, which is long and slender like >> a >> Boat-tailed Grackle and nothing like the foreshortened, compact, >> belly-heavy body structure of Rusty. Another glaring problem is the long, >> deep head shape with shallow forehead. Rusty has a compact, squarish head >> shape with a very steep forehead that doesn't resemble this bird in the >> least. There is nothing about this bird that resembles a Rusty Blackbird >> except for black and rusty plumage highlights that are just fine for >> female Boat-tailed Grackle. As for the pale eye, which is also not as >> bright and straw colored as a Rusty Blackbird, remember that just above >> the Florida state boundary with Georgia is the Atlantic Boat-tailed >> Grackle population that we also have in NJ , and this is a better >> scenario >> for the origin of this bird than Rusty Blackbird. I am usually not so >> vehement in my comments on a particular bird, but this one is in no way, >> shape or form even close to a Rusty Blackbird, regardless of the comments >> that you have received, and fine for a very young Boat-tailed with rust >> fringed juv upperpart feathers. Young Boat-tails show these bold, rust >> fringes to upperpart feathers. >> Kevin Karlson >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Vincent P Lucas" >> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 1:11:17 PM >> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? >> >> All: >> >> >> I have received quite a few comments about the Rusty >> Blackbird/Boat-tailed >> Grackle. So far, the majority sides with Rusty Blackbird and several >> others with Boat-tailed Grackle. One person suggests that it might be a >> hybrid of some kind. Alvaro Jaramillo & Peter Burke, authors of __ New >> World Blackbirds__ both are calling it a female Rusty Blackbird. Their >> book is here: >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/New-World-Blackbirds-Alvaro-Jaramillo/dp/0691006806/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327082366&sr=1-3 >> >> >> I am taking the liberty of posting their responses here. I hope neither >> of >> them object! >> >> >> >> >> >> Vincent, >> >> >> >> >> >> This looks like a female Rusty. The coloration including the cinnamon >> eyebrow, pale eye, rufous tertial edges and grey rump. All perfectly fine >> for Rusty Blackbird. >> >> Regards, >> >> Alvaro >> >> >> Alvaro Jaramillo >> chucao AT coastside.net >> Half Moon Bay, California >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> >> >> Vincent >> I looked at the photo this morning, thanks for posting. I have no >> hesitation in calling this a female Rusty Blackbird. I think the >> lighting, >> being as dark as it is, caused some observers to see it as something akin >> to a Boat-tailed Grackle but if you go down to the shape of the bird I >> donâ?Tt see how one could see it as anything else but Rusty Blackbird. >> The >> bill is nothing as long and powerful nor hooked like a Grackleâ?Ts and it >> is not nearly long legged enough. The points Alvaro makes about plumage I >> completely agree with as well â?" including the nice bluish gray rump >> that >> contrasts with the rest of the back. One never sees such a contrast in >> color like this on any female Quiscalis grackle in the neotropics. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> >> >> >> >> Peter >> psburke AT rogers.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I am still open to suggestions/opinions but it looks like I'm sticking >> with my initial call of Rusty Blackbird unless a VERY convincing argument >> is otherwise presented. Thanks for the comments! >> >> >> Vince >> >> >> >> Vincent P. Lucas >> Naples, FL >> vplucas AT comcast.net >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/ >> >> >> >> On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Vincent P Lucas wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Have a look at the bird at this link which was taken at Pa-hay-okee, >> Everglades National Park, Miami-Dade Co., Florida on 11/22/2008. What are >> your thoughts about the ID? I claim it's a Rusty Blackbird because the >> iris is white/yellow (Boat-tailed Grackles in Florida have brown eyes >> except in NE FL and perhaps in the extreme NW FL Panhandle), the short >> tail, bill length, tertials, and general "jizz". I'd appreciate any >> thoughts & opinions but please give details as to why you think it is one >> species over the other. Thanks. >> >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/3219297833/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >> >> >> >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >> >> > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: Kevin Karlson <karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 23:15:24 +0000 All: I am surprised still about the ID of this bird as a Rusty, so I put together a photo composite of a female Rusty Blackbird that I photographed in NJ in November many years ago and the photo of the bird in question from Florida. The unusual angled body posture of the bird in the photo may be the reason why others are not seeing the obvious difference in body structure between these two species, with Boat-tailed long and lanky and Rusty stocky and foreshortened, but my photo of a female Rusty in similar posture allows a direct comparison of these structural differences. The head shape is also so different, with Boat-tailed showing a lack of a forehead and a deep, sloping head that blends into the neck, while Rusty has a steeper forehead, higher crown shape, an eye that sits lower in the head, and has a typical rounded blackbird head shape. All these features can be directly compared in my photo array. The other obvious physical difference is the amount of tail showing behind the longest primary on the Boat-tailed compared to the very short tail (relative to the body) on the Rusty. Also note the very thick, typical leg structure on the Boat-tailed compared to the very thin, stick-like legs of the Rusty. As for my inferring that the bird was a juvenile, I did not mean that it was a bird right out of the nest, but one that hatched maybe in the summer, since Boat-tails nest a number of times and don't correspond to a fixed breeding timetable. And to stray from a strictly structural analysis, note how the supercilium on the Boat-tailed blends into the nape and does not end abruptly like a Rusty Blackbird's, and the overall ochre coloration to the head and back is so typical of Atlantic and Gulf Coast female Boat-tailed. One thing that puzzles me is the immense size difference between the two species. Rusty is about 9 inches long, similar to a Red-winged Blackbird, while female Boat-tailed is almost 15 inches long. In the field, they don't appear anything alike in size, and the observer should have noted how the size of the bird in question compared to nearby Boat-taileds or Red-wings. this would have settled the discussion before a single photo where size cannot be judged gets put out over an ID forum. As for Peter's comments questioning my opinion that this bird looks nothing like a Rusty Blackbird, I stand by my comments. It looks nothing like a Rusty from a structural standpoint in every aspect of its body parts structure, especially the head, bill, tail, legs and body shape. And having seen many thousands of Rustys in the winter over the last 30 years, I can say that they are so variable in nonbreeding plumage that you cannot with certainty say what the fine points of plumage ID are for a single representative bird, whether male or female. And when they first arrive in fall, they are in a transition state that is different still, and in the spring they have another look that reflects their transition into breeding plumage. Plumage fine points on this bird are irrelevant when everything structurally about this bird does not correspond with a Rusty Blackbird, but fits just fine with an Atlantic Boat-tailed Grackle in an odd body posture that is turned away from the camera. Here is the link to a photo comparison of both species. http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Boat-tailed+Grackle+_L__+Rusty+Blackbird+female+nonbreeding+_R_+.jpg.html http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Frontiers/Boat-tailed+Grackle+_L__+Rusty+Blackbird+female+nonbreeding+_R_+.jpg.html Kevin Karlson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vincent P Lucas" To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 1:11:17 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? All: I have received quite a few comments about the Rusty Blackbird/Boat-tailed Grackle. So far, the majority sides with Rusty Blackbird and several others with Boat-tailed Grackle. One person suggests that it might be a hybrid of some kind. Alvaro Jaramillo & Peter Burke, authors of __ New World Blackbirds__ both are calling it a female Rusty Blackbird. Their book is here: http://www.amazon.com/New-World-Blackbirds-Alvaro-Jaramillo/dp/0691006806/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327082366&sr=1-3 I am taking the liberty of posting their responses here. I hope neither of them object! Vincent, This looks like a female Rusty. The coloration including the cinnamon eyebrow, pale eye, rufous tertial edges and grey rump. All perfectly fine for Rusty Blackbird. Regards, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California and Vincent I looked at the photo this morning, thanks for posting. I have no hesitation in calling this a female Rusty Blackbird. I think the lighting, being as dark as it is, caused some observers to see it as something akin to a Boat-tailed Grackle but if you go down to the shape of the bird I don’t see how one could see it as anything else but Rusty Blackbird. The bill is nothing as long and powerful nor hooked like a Grackle’s and it is not nearly long legged enough. The points Alvaro makes about plumage I completely agree with as well – including the nice bluish gray rump that contrasts with the rest of the back. One never sees such a contrast in color like this on any female Quiscalis grackle in the neotropics. Hope this helps. Peter psburke AT rogers.com I am still open to suggestions/opinions but it looks like I'm sticking with my initial call of Rusty Blackbird unless a VERY convincing argument is otherwise presented. Thanks for the comments! Vince Vincent P. Lucas Naples, FL vplucas AT comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/ On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Vincent P Lucas wrote: Have a look at the bird at this link which was taken at Pa-hay-okee, Everglades National Park, Miami-Dade Co., Florida on 11/22/2008. What are your thoughts about the ID? I claim it's a Rusty Blackbird because the iris is white/yellow (Boat-tailed Grackles in Florida have brown eyes except in NE FL and perhaps in the extreme NW FL Panhandle), the short tail, bill length, tertials, and general "jizz". I'd appreciate any thoughts & opinions but please give details as to why you think it is one species over the other. Thanks. http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/3219297833/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 17:25:35 -0500 Hi Kevin and all - I had earlier responded briefly to Vincent that I was also leaning to Rusty Blackbird despite not knowing either species well. I wouldn't say it looks nothing like a Rusty when you can easily find similar images like this: http://www.fws.gov/northdakotafieldoffice/images/Rusty%20Blackbird.jpg (presumbaly from North Dakota so presumably not a Boat-tailed Grackle) Kevin is correct that the bill of the Florida bird seems on the large and curved side for Rusty, but it also has a notch on the tomium that seems more typical of Rusty than Boat-tailed Grackle, and I don't see the gradated rectrices I'd expect of a grackle. Details of plumage seem to match Rusty better than Boat-tailed to me as well. Boat-tailed Grackles should not be in juvenal plumage in November (they have a complete preformative molt in August) and usually appear more worn-looking than the Florida bird by late November. For what I know it could have been a Boat-tailed Grackle and not a Rusty Blackbird but I don't think the latter species should be eliminated so readily. Peter > Vincent and all: > If the link that you provide in this e-mail is the photo of the bird that > people have been commenting on, I am surprised that anyone would call this > bird a Rusty Blackbird. It is all wrong for a Rusty in so many ways, but > especially the very long tail that has a rounded tip and is segmented, > unlike Rusty's short, square tail; long legs like a grackle versus short > legs on Rusty; heavy, long bill with very deep base and super decurved > upper culmen that is nothing like Rusty's shorter, much thinner, very > pointed bill, and overall body structure, which is long and slender like a > Boat-tailed Grackle and nothing like the foreshortened, compact, > belly-heavy body structure of Rusty. Another glaring problem is the long, > deep head shape with shallow forehead. Rusty has a compact, squarish head > shape with a very steep forehead that doesn't resemble this bird in the > least. There is nothing about this bird that resembles a Rusty Blackbird > except for black and rusty plumage highlights that are just fine for > female Boat-tailed Grackle. As for the pale eye, which is also not as > bright and straw colored as a Rusty Blackbird, remember that just above > the Florida state boundary with Georgia is the Atlantic Boat-tailed > Grackle population that we also have in NJ , and this is a better scenario > for the origin of this bird than Rusty Blackbird. I am usually not so > vehement in my comments on a particular bird, but this one is in no way, > shape or form even close to a Rusty Blackbird, regardless of the comments > that you have received, and fine for a very young Boat-tailed with rust > fringed juv upperpart feathers. Young Boat-tails show these bold, rust > fringes to upperpart feathers. > Kevin Karlson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vincent P Lucas" > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 1:11:17 PM > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? > > All: > > > I have received quite a few comments about the Rusty Blackbird/Boat-tailed > Grackle. So far, the majority sides with Rusty Blackbird and several > others with Boat-tailed Grackle. One person suggests that it might be a > hybrid of some kind. Alvaro Jaramillo & Peter Burke, authors of __ New > World Blackbirds__ both are calling it a female Rusty Blackbird. Their > book is here: > > > http://www.amazon.com/New-World-Blackbirds-Alvaro-Jaramillo/dp/0691006806/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327082366&sr=1-3 > > > I am taking the liberty of posting their responses here. I hope neither of > them object! > > > > > > Vincent, > > > > > > This looks like a female Rusty. The coloration including the cinnamon > eyebrow, pale eye, rufous tertial edges and grey rump. All perfectly fine > for Rusty Blackbird. > > Regards, > > Alvaro > > > Alvaro Jaramillo > chucao AT coastside.net > Half Moon Bay, California > > > > and > > > > > > Vincent > I looked at the photo this morning, thanks for posting. I have no > hesitation in calling this a female Rusty Blackbird. I think the lighting, > being as dark as it is, caused some observers to see it as something akin > to a Boat-tailed Grackle but if you go down to the shape of the bird I > don’t see how one could see it as anything else but Rusty Blackbird. The > bill is nothing as long and powerful nor hooked like a Grackle’s and it > is not nearly long legged enough. The points Alvaro makes about plumage I > completely agree with as well – including the nice bluish gray rump that > contrasts with the rest of the back. One never sees such a contrast in > color like this on any female Quiscalis grackle in the neotropics. > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > Peter > psburke AT rogers.com > > > > > > > > > I am still open to suggestions/opinions but it looks like I'm sticking > with my initial call of Rusty Blackbird unless a VERY convincing argument > is otherwise presented. Thanks for the comments! > > > Vince > > > > Vincent P. Lucas > Naples, FL > vplucas AT comcast.net > http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/ > > > > On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Vincent P Lucas wrote: > > > > > Have a look at the bird at this link which was taken at Pa-hay-okee, > Everglades National Park, Miami-Dade Co., Florida on 11/22/2008. What are > your thoughts about the ID? I claim it's a Rusty Blackbird because the > iris is white/yellow (Boat-tailed Grackles in Florida have brown eyes > except in NE FL and perhaps in the extreme NW FL Panhandle), the short > tail, bill length, tertials, and general "jizz". I'd appreciate any > thoughts & opinions but please give details as to why you think it is one > species over the other. Thanks. > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/3219297833/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: Kevin Karlson <karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 22:17:14 +0000 To all: I forgot to mention in my last post for those outside of the US that the Atlantic race of Boat-tailed Grackle has yellowish eyes like the bird in your photo. These birds breed virtually in my backyard, and I see them all year round, and your bird is a dead ringer both in body, head, bill and tail structure as well as plumage for this race. The very thick legs on your bird are also nothing like the skinny, tooth-pick like legs on Rusty Blackbird. This bird is no hybrid, but a perfectly fine Atlantic Boat-tailed Grackle. Kevin Karlson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vincent P Lucas" To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 1:11:17 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? All: I have received quite a few comments about the Rusty Blackbird/Boat-tailed Grackle. So far, the majority sides with Rusty Blackbird and several others with Boat-tailed Grackle. One person suggests that it might be a hybrid of some kind. Alvaro Jaramillo & Peter Burke, authors of __ New World Blackbirds__ both are calling it a female Rusty Blackbird. Their book is here: http://www.amazon.com/New-World-Blackbirds-Alvaro-Jaramillo/dp/0691006806/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327082366&sr=1-3 I am taking the liberty of posting their responses here. I hope neither of them object! Vincent, This looks like a female Rusty. The coloration including the cinnamon eyebrow, pale eye, rufous tertial edges and grey rump. All perfectly fine for Rusty Blackbird. Regards, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California and Vincent I looked at the photo this morning, thanks for posting. I have no hesitation in calling this a female Rusty Blackbird. I think the lighting, being as dark as it is, caused some observers to see it as something akin to a Boat-tailed Grackle but if you go down to the shape of the bird I don’t see how one could see it as anything else but Rusty Blackbird. The bill is nothing as long and powerful nor hooked like a Grackle’s and it is not nearly long legged enough. The points Alvaro makes about plumage I completely agree with as well – including the nice bluish gray rump that contrasts with the rest of the back. One never sees such a contrast in color like this on any female Quiscalis grackle in the neotropics. Hope this helps. Peter psburke AT rogers.com I am still open to suggestions/opinions but it looks like I'm sticking with my initial call of Rusty Blackbird unless a VERY convincing argument is otherwise presented. Thanks for the comments! Vince Vincent P. Lucas Naples, FL vplucas AT comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/ On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Vincent P Lucas wrote: Have a look at the bird at this link which was taken at Pa-hay-okee, Everglades National Park, Miami-Dade Co., Florida on 11/22/2008. What are your thoughts about the ID? I claim it's a Rusty Blackbird because the iris is white/yellow (Boat-tailed Grackles in Florida have brown eyes except in NE FL and perhaps in the extreme NW FL Panhandle), the short tail, bill length, tertials, and general "jizz". I'd appreciate any thoughts & opinions but please give details as to why you think it is one species over the other. Thanks. http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/3219297833/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: Kevin Karlson <karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 21:59:51 +0000 Vincent and all: If the link that you provide in this e-mail is the photo of the bird that people have been commenting on, I am surprised that anyone would call this bird a Rusty Blackbird. It is all wrong for a Rusty in so many ways, but especially the very long tail that has a rounded tip and is segmented, unlike Rusty's short, square tail; long legs like a grackle versus short legs on Rusty; heavy, long bill with very deep base and super decurved upper culmen that is nothing like Rusty's shorter, much thinner, very pointed bill, and overall body structure, which is long and slender like a Boat-tailed Grackle and nothing like the foreshortened, compact, belly-heavy body structure of Rusty. Another glaring problem is the long, deep head shape with shallow forehead. Rusty has a compact, squarish head shape with a very steep forehead that doesn't resemble this bird in the least. There is nothing about this bird that resembles a Rusty Blackbird except for black and rusty plumage highlights that are just fine for female Boat-tailed Grackle. As for the pale eye, which is also not as bright and straw colored as a Rusty Blackbird, remember that just above the Florida state boundary with Georgia is the Atlantic Boat-tailed Grackle population that we also have in NJ , and this is a better scenario for the origin of this bird than Rusty Blackbird. I am usually not so vehement in my comments on a particular bird, but this one is in no way, shape or form even close to a Rusty Blackbird, regardless of the comments that you have received, and fine for a very young Boat-tailed with rust fringed juv upperpart feathers. Young Boat-tails show these bold, rust fringes to upperpart feathers. Kevin Karlson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vincent P Lucas" To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 1:11:17 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? All: I have received quite a few comments about the Rusty Blackbird/Boat-tailed Grackle. So far, the majority sides with Rusty Blackbird and several others with Boat-tailed Grackle. One person suggests that it might be a hybrid of some kind. Alvaro Jaramillo & Peter Burke, authors of __ New World Blackbirds__ both are calling it a female Rusty Blackbird. Their book is here: http://www.amazon.com/New-World-Blackbirds-Alvaro-Jaramillo/dp/0691006806/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327082366&sr=1-3 I am taking the liberty of posting their responses here. I hope neither of them object! Vincent, This looks like a female Rusty. The coloration including the cinnamon eyebrow, pale eye, rufous tertial edges and grey rump. All perfectly fine for Rusty Blackbird. Regards, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California and Vincent I looked at the photo this morning, thanks for posting. I have no hesitation in calling this a female Rusty Blackbird. I think the lighting, being as dark as it is, caused some observers to see it as something akin to a Boat-tailed Grackle but if you go down to the shape of the bird I don’t see how one could see it as anything else but Rusty Blackbird. The bill is nothing as long and powerful nor hooked like a Grackle’s and it is not nearly long legged enough. The points Alvaro makes about plumage I completely agree with as well – including the nice bluish gray rump that contrasts with the rest of the back. One never sees such a contrast in color like this on any female Quiscalis grackle in the neotropics. Hope this helps. Peter psburke AT rogers.com I am still open to suggestions/opinions but it looks like I'm sticking with my initial call of Rusty Blackbird unless a VERY convincing argument is otherwise presented. Thanks for the comments! Vince Vincent P. Lucas Naples, FL vplucas AT comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/ On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Vincent P Lucas wrote: Have a look at the bird at this link which was taken at Pa-hay-okee, Everglades National Park, Miami-Dade Co., Florida on 11/22/2008. What are your thoughts about the ID? I claim it's a Rusty Blackbird because the iris is white/yellow (Boat-tailed Grackles in Florida have brown eyes except in NE FL and perhaps in the extreme NW FL Panhandle), the short tail, bill length, tertials, and general "jizz". I'd appreciate any thoughts & opinions but please give details as to why you think it is one species over the other. Thanks. http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/3219297833/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: Vincent P Lucas <vplucas AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:11:17 -0500 All: I have received quite a few comments about the Rusty Blackbird/Boat- tailed Grackle. So far, the majority sides with Rusty Blackbird and several others with Boat-tailed Grackle. One person suggests that it might be a hybrid of some kind. Alvaro Jaramillo & Peter Burke, authors of __ New World Blackbirds__ both are calling it a female Rusty Blackbird. Their book is here: http://www.amazon.com/New-World-Blackbirds-Alvaro-Jaramillo/dp/0691006806/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327082366&sr=1-3 I am taking the liberty of posting their responses here. I hope neither of them object! > Vincent, > > This looks like a female Rusty. The coloration including the > cinnamon eyebrow, pale eye, rufous tertial edges and grey rump. All > perfectly fine for Rusty Blackbird. > > Regards, > > Alvaro > > Alvaro Jaramillo > chucao AT coastside.net > Half Moon Bay, California and > Vincent > I looked at the photo this morning, thanks for posting. > I have no hesitation in calling this a female Rusty Blackbird. I > think the lighting, being as dark as it is, caused some observers to > see it as something akin to a Boat-tailed Grackle but if you go down > to the shape of the bird I don’t see how one could see it as > anything else but Rusty Blackbird. The bill is nothing as long and > powerful nor hooked like a Grackle’s and it is not nearly long > legged enough. The points Alvaro makes about plumage I completely > agree with as well – including the nice bluish gray rump that > contrasts with the rest of the back. One never sees such a contrast > in color like this on any female Quiscalis grackle in the neotropics. > > Hope this helps. > Peter > psburke AT rogers.com > I am still open to suggestions/opinions but it looks like I'm sticking with my initial call of Rusty Blackbird unless a VERY convincing argument is otherwise presented. Thanks for the comments! Vince Vincent P. Lucas Naples, FL vplucas AT comcast.net http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/ On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Vincent P Lucas wrote: > Have a look at the bird at this link which was taken at Pa-hay-okee, > Everglades National Park, Miami-Dade Co., Florida on 11/22/2008. > What are your thoughts about the ID? I claim it's a Rusty Blackbird > because the iris is white/yellow (Boat-tailed Grackles in Florida > have brown eyes except in NE FL and perhaps in the extreme NW FL > Panhandle), the short tail, bill length, tertials, and general > "jizz". I'd appreciate any thoughts & opinions but please give > details as to why you think it is one species over the other. Thanks. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/3219297833/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Rusty Blackbird or Female Boat-tailed Grackle? From: Vincent P Lucas <vplucas AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 23:02:20 -0500 Have a look at the bird at this link which was taken at Pa-hay-okee, Everglades National Park, Miami-Dade Co., Florida on 11/22/2008. What are your thoughts about the ID? I claim it's a Rusty Blackbird because the iris is white/yellow (Boat-tailed Grackles in Florida have brown eyes except in NE FL and perhaps in the extreme NW FL Panhandle), the short tail, bill length, tertials, and general "jizz". I'd appreciate any thoughts & opinions but please give details as to why you think it is one species over the other. Thanks. http://www.flickr.com/photos/leppyone/3219297833/ Vincent P. Lucas Naples, FL vplucas AT comcast.net Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Field identification of Cassiar/Slate-colored/Oregon/Pink-sided Juncos From: Paul Hurtado <paul.j.hurtado AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:47:34 -0500 I forgot to mention in my last post that the MISSOURI, NEW YORK and UTAH birds are particularly worth looking at. Best, Paul Hurtado Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html