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Updated on Monday, April 3 at 01:43 AM EST
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03 Apr Re: origin of "ode" as an abbreviation for odonate [Colin Adams ]
2 Apr Re: origin of "ode" as an abbreviation for odonate [Dennis Paulson ]
2 Apr Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns [Dennis Paulson ]
2 Apr Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns [Ronald Orenstein ]
2 Apr Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns [Kathy Biggs ]
01 Apr Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns [Colin Adams ]
01 Apr Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns [Colin Adams ]
1 Apr Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns [Hal White ]
01 Apr Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns [Colin Adams ]
1 Apr Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns [Dennis Paulson ]
1 Apr Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns [Bob Solem ]
1 Apr Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns [Adolfo Cordero Rivera ]
01 Apr Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns [Colin Adams ]
1 Apr Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns [Hal White ]
24 Mar Re: Odonate larvae making sounds? ["Dubois, Robert - DNR" ]
24 Mar Re: Odonate larvae making sounds? [Dennis Paulson ]
24 Mar Re: Odonate larvae making sounds? ["Mark O'Brien" ]
22 Mar Re: Odonate larvae making sounds? ["Mark O'Brien" ]
24 Mar Re: Odonate larvae making sounds? [Dennis Paulson ]
24 Mar Re: Odonate larvae making sounds? [Kathy Biggs ]
19 Mar Pseudolestes behaviour [Adolfo Cordero Rivera ]
26 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Ronald Orenstein ]
25 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Ronald Orenstein ]
25 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Colin Adams ]
25 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Colin Adams ]
25 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Ronald Orenstein ]
24 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Dennis Paulson ]
24 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Colin Adams ]
24 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Dennis Paulson ]
24 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Colin Adams ]
24 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Thomas Schultz ]
24 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Colin Adams ]
24 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Odo Natasaki ]
24 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Ronald Orenstein ]
24 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Hal White ]
24 Feb Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates ["Fincke, Ola M." ]
24 Feb Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates [Hal White ]
17 Feb Ethological diversity [Adolfo Cordero Rivera ]
12 Feb Re: Odonata-l Digest, Vol 155, Issue 7 Temperature Data Logger [Robert Foster ]
11 Feb Re: dragonfly weights [Dennis Paulson ]
10 Feb Re: dragonfly weights [Dennis Paulson ]
3 Feb dragonfly weights [Dennis Paulson ]
27 Jan Michigan Odonata Survey Larval Keys ["Mark O'Brien" ]
9 Dec colour change references [Adolfo Cordero Rivera ]
29 Nov Ed Lam's book [George Sims ]
29 Nov Updated IORI web site ["Bill Mauffray" ]
28 Nov Ed Lam's "Damselflies of the Northeast" only $10 a copy! [Joshua Rose ]
20 Nov editorship of Odonata for Zootaxa [Dennis Paulson ]
13 Nov Re: Id please [Dennis Paulson ]
13 Nov Re: Id please [Dennis Paulson ]
13 Nov Id please [Alejandro Cordoba Aguilar ]
31 Oct Geographical variation in colour forms of Ischnura elegans? [Colin Adams ]
15 Oct Re: frons ["Rowe, Richard" ]
30 Sep Re: Journal request [William Hull ]
30 Sep Re: Journal request ["Smith Patten, Brenda D." ]
27 Sep Journal request [William Hull ]
25 Sep Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs [Adolfo Cordero Rivera ]
20 Sep Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs ["Rowe, Richard" ]
20 Sep Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs []
20 Sep Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs ["Mark A. McPeek" ]
20 Sep Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs ["Mark A. McPeek" ]
20 Sep Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs [ngelo P. Pinto ]
20 Sep Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs [Joshua Rose ]
20 Sep Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs [Walter Sanford ]
20 Sep Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs ["Mark A. McPeek" ]
20 Sep Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs [Walter Sanford ]
19 Sep Re: Zebra [Benoît Guillon ]
19 Sep Re: Zebra [johan van t Bosch ]
19 Sep Re: Zebra [johan van t Bosch ]
18 Sep Re: Zebra ["Dave McShaffrey" ]
18 Sep Re: Zebra [Thomas Schultz ]
18 Sep Re: Zebra [Dennis Paulson ]
18 Sep Re: Zebra [Thomas Schultz ]
18 Sep Re: Zebra [Dennis Paulson ]
18 Sep Re: Zebra [Mike Averill ]
18 Sep Re: Zebra [Adolfo Cordero Rivera ]

Subject: Re: origin of "ode" as an abbreviation for odonate
From: Colin Adams <colinpauladams AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 06:31:13 +0000
Oding? Pronounced Oh-dee-ing?
I didn't think it was possible to overdose on dragonflies. :-P

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 at 04:48 Dennis Paulson 
wrote:

> Jackie, thanks so much for posting that. It does bring back the memory of
> the first time I ever saw that word, indeed in your newsletter. I had
> actually forgotten that, and the noun at least was coined quite a long time
> ago. At the time it didn’t offend me in any way, and I bought into it in
> exactly the way you intended.
>
> I think had Philip Corbet not been so against the term (and those of us
> who knew Philip even moderately well would understand that he brought a
> purist mentality along with his persona as a great scientist with an
> unlimited knowledge of odonates), I probably wouldn’t have thought much
> more of it. I have accepted it for years, as so many people I hang out with
> use the term. My objections would have died away entirely if the noun
> hadn’t been turned into a verb and then another noun with what I consider
> the worst of its uses: “oders” as people who study and are enthusiastic
> about odonates. If we could only get rid of that odious noun that some use
> to describe us, I would be happy! I think some butterfly enthusiasts
> actually use the word “leppers” to describe themselves, and that one has
> always bugged me equally. Dragonfly people don’t smell bad and butterfly
> people aren’t infected with *Mycobacterium*!
>
> Sid Dunkle and I, beginning in the 1980s, decided to try mightily to bring
> amateur naturalists into odonatology by coining common names for the North
> American species and planning field guides, so I would be the last to
> complain that there is such a large cadre of people interested in
> dragonflies who don’t even know there was a time before odes and odeing (or
> is it oding?)!
>
> Dennis
>
> On Apr 2, 2017, at 7:54 PM, Jackie Sones  wrote:
>
> Hi, Dennis, Ronald, and other odonate enthusiasts,
>
> Should I admit to this again?
>
> This topic -- "ode origins and context" -- came up quite some time ago, in
> April 2004.  Although I can't really recall using "ode" as a verb, I have
> used it as an informal noun.  When the topic came up previously, Blair
> Nikula and I wrote an e-mail explaining the possible origin of the
> abbreviation.
>
> In case it's still of interest, here's the message we wrote on 27 April
> 2004 (hard to believe it was that long ago!) --
>
> Hello,
>
> After reviewing the recent discussion regarding the use of the abbreviation
> “ode,” and because it is possible that this abbreviation for odonate
> originated with us in the early 1990s (although if someone wishes to claim
> prior usage or an independent origin, we will happily defer), we would like
> to provide some context and express some of our thoughts.
>
> The usage began with a small group of friends, very active field
> naturalists, indeed, who eventually started using the abbreviation. We do
> not recall that it was at all purposeful, but that the abbreviation just
> seemed to form naturally out of camaraderie and extent of use. However, this
> usage was only informal, and was never really meant for a formal setting or
> a larger audience.
>
> We love puns and the title of our newsletter, Ode News, was originally meant
> to be a take on “Old News”: to summarize the findings of the past field
> season. The newsletter title also seemed to represent a tongue-in-cheek
> expression, as the news was actually quite new and exciting. It should also
> be noted that Ode News was originally meant for only a handful of friends —
> a four-page photocopied newsletter, to garner local enthusiasm for these
> beautiful and fascinating insects. Who would have guessed that the
> newsletter would eventually expand to a 12-page biannual publication and an
> internationally known website, to have 340 subscribers from 30 states, 6
> Canadian provinces and two European countries?  Who would have guessed that
> the abbreviation “ode” would be a subject of debate among the world’s
> leading odonatologists?
>
> We never would have guessed.  And we are actually in a state of disbelief.
> We truly never meant any harm or disrespect.
>
> Had we the foresight to see that the abbreviation would take off to this
> degree, perhaps we would have chosen a different name for the newsletter. On
> the other hand, we are also very glad to see the growth of interest in
> odonates. It is true, we have developed many abbreviations while studying
> odonates in the field: Anax junius became “A.j.;” Anax longipes became 
“Big 

> Al” (Al for the A in Anax and the l in longipes); Williamsonia lintneri
> became “Willy lint;” Pachydiplax became "Pachy-dee.” And while these 
names 

> may make some readers cringe, we want to relate that they were born during
> the frenzy of field time, and out of familiarity and affection more than
> anything else. We do not feel as though we have underestimated the
> importance of the original names (and use them accordingly in the
> appropriate circumstances), but we can see how it might appear that way when
> taken out of context.
>
> It seems it would be difficult to ascertain the direct and indirect impacts
> of introducing “ode” as an abbreviation for odonate. In the northeastern
> United States, odonate enthusiasts have certainly grown exponentially during
> the past decade, to the point where the handful of friends evolved into the
> first-ever New England Odonate Conference (held just two weeks ago with over
> 140 attendees). If “ode” contributed in even a small way to this 
gathering, 

> or to the wave of efforts to learn more about (and to conserve) the odonate
> fauna of this or any other region, then along with regret for having
> introduced a corruption, perhaps we can also feel a little gladness.
>
> There are many words for which there are multiple meanings, and
> interpretation therefore often comes down to context. We wanted to be sure
> that the context was clear in this situation.
>
> And given the topic, perhaps it is appropriate to end with this:
>
> Oh, fellow odonatologists,
> ‘tis a life of turns and twists,
> ‘twas only enthusiasm, and not offense,
> for which we sincerely wished.
>
> With our humblest apologies, and our greatest hopes for many productive and
> inspiring field seasons to come,
>
> Jackie Sones and Blair Nikula
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Dennis Paulson 
> *To:* Ronald Orenstein 
> *Cc:* Odonata-l ; Kathy Biggs <
> bigsnest AT sonic.net>
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 2, 2017 6:45 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Odonata-l] Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight
> patterns
>
> I think it is very recent indeed, and I’ll go on record as someone who
> wishes it hadn’t been coined. Using “ode” as a noun was very 
distasteful to 

> Philip Corbet, and I probably was influenced by that. It may have
> originated, not that many years ago, as an equivalent to “lep” as a
> contraction of lepidopteran. Butterfly people talk about “leps” all the
> time, but I don’t think I’ve heard anyone say “let’s go lepping.”
>
> Sometimes it seems as if (at least in American society) we’re in such a
> hurry to do everything that we even have to be in a hurry to speak, and
> then it’s too much trouble to say “let’s go out looking for 
dragonflies,” 

> or damselflies or odonates or Odonata. Even dragons and damsels would be
> better than odes as contractions, but languages evolve to keep up with
> usage, as we all know, and perhaps more people use “odes” for Odonata 
than 

> for poems nowadays!
>
> Dennis Paulson
> Seattle, WA
>
> On Apr 2, 2017, at 5:33 PM, Ronald Orenstein 
> wrote:
>
> How recent is the verb "to ode?"
>
> Ronald Orenstein
> 1825 Shady Creek Court
> Mississauga, ON
> Canada L5L 3W2
> ronorenstein.blogspot.com
>
> On Apr 2, 2017, at 4:37 PM, Kathy Biggs  wrote:
>
> Have you noticed that we have a new verb in the English language?
> "Photoshop"
> Definition - to change a photo digitally, using ANY photo editing
> program? And not just for big changes, even just uping the contrast a
> smidgen...
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>
> -----
> Dennis Paulson
> 1724 NE 98 St.
> Seattle, WA 98115
> 206-528-1382 <(206)%20528-1382>
> dennispaulson AT comcast.net
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>
>
> -----
> Dennis Paulson
> 1724 NE 98 St.
> Seattle, WA 98115
> 206-528-1382 <(206)%20528-1382>
> dennispaulson AT comcast.net
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>_______________________________________________
Odonata-l mailing list
Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: origin of "ode" as an abbreviation for odonate
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 20:46:01 -0700
Jackie, thanks so much for posting that. It does bring back the memory of the 
first time I ever saw that word, indeed in your newsletter. I had actually 
forgotten that, and the noun at least was coined quite a long time ago. At the 
time it didnt offend me in any way, and I bought into it in exactly the way 
you intended. 


I think had Philip Corbet not been so against the term (and those of us who 
knew Philip even moderately well would understand that he brought a purist 
mentality along with his persona as a great scientist with an unlimited 
knowledge of odonates), I probably wouldnt have thought much more of it. I 
have accepted it for years, as so many people I hang out with use the term. My 
objections would have died away entirely if the noun hadnt been turned into a 
verb and then another noun with what I consider the worst of its uses: oders 
as people who study and are enthusiastic about odonates. If we could only get 
rid of that odious noun that some use to describe us, I would be happy! I think 
some butterfly enthusiasts actually use the word leppers to describe 
themselves, and that one has always bugged me equally. Dragonfly people dont 
smell bad and butterfly people arent infected with Mycobacterium! 


Sid Dunkle and I, beginning in the 1980s, decided to try mightily to bring 
amateur naturalists into odonatology by coining common names for the North 
American species and planning field guides, so I would be the last to complain 
that there is such a large cadre of people interested in dragonflies who dont 
even know there was a time before odes and odeing (or is it oding?)! 


Dennis

On Apr 2, 2017, at 7:54 PM, Jackie Sones  wrote:

> Hi, Dennis, Ronald, and other odonate enthusiasts,
> 
> Should I admit to this again?
> 
> This topic -- "ode origins and context" -- came up quite some time ago, in 
April 2004. Although I can't really recall using "ode" as a verb, I have used 
it as an informal noun. When the topic came up previously, Blair Nikula and I 
wrote an e-mail explaining the possible origin of the abbreviation. 

> 
> In case it's still of interest, here's the message we wrote on 27 April 2004 
(hard to believe it was that long ago!) -- 

> 
> Hello,
> 
> After reviewing the recent discussion regarding the use of the abbreviation
> ode, and because it is possible that this abbreviation for odonate
> originated with us in the early 1990s (although if someone wishes to claim
> prior usage or an independent origin, we will happily defer), we would like
> to provide some context and express some of our thoughts.
> 
> The usage began with a small group of friends, very active field
> naturalists, indeed, who eventually started using the abbreviation. We do
> not recall that it was at all purposeful, but that the abbreviation just
> seemed to form naturally out of camaraderie and extent of use. However, this
> usage was only informal, and was never really meant for a formal setting or
> a larger audience.
> 
> We love puns and the title of our newsletter, Ode News, was originally meant
> to be a take on Old News: to summarize the findings of the past field
> season. The newsletter title also seemed to represent a tongue-in-cheek
> expression, as the news was actually quite new and exciting. It should also
> be noted that Ode News was originally meant for only a handful of friends 
> a four-page photocopied newsletter, to garner local enthusiasm for these
> beautiful and fascinating insects. Who would have guessed that the
> newsletter would eventually expand to a 12-page biannual publication and an
> internationally known website, to have 340 subscribers from 30 states, 6
> Canadian provinces and two European countries?  Who would have guessed that
> the abbreviation ode would be a subject of debate among the worlds
> leading odonatologists?
> 
> We never would have guessed.  And we are actually in a state of disbelief.
> We truly never meant any harm or disrespect.
> 
> Had we the foresight to see that the abbreviation would take off to this
> degree, perhaps we would have chosen a different name for the newsletter. On
> the other hand, we are also very glad to see the growth of interest in
> odonates. It is true, we have developed many abbreviations while studying
> odonates in the field: Anax junius became A.j.; Anax longipes became Big
> Al (Al for the A in Anax and the l in longipes); Williamsonia lintneri
> became Willy lint; Pachydiplax became "Pachy-dee. And while these names
> may make some readers cringe, we want to relate that they were born during
> the frenzy of field time, and out of familiarity and affection more than
> anything else. We do not feel as though we have underestimated the
> importance of the original names (and use them accordingly in the
> appropriate circumstances), but we can see how it might appear that way when
> taken out of context.
> 
> It seems it would be difficult to ascertain the direct and indirect impacts
> of introducing ode as an abbreviation for odonate. In the northeastern
> United States, odonate enthusiasts have certainly grown exponentially during
> the past decade, to the point where the handful of friends evolved into the
> first-ever New England Odonate Conference (held just two weeks ago with over
> 140 attendees). If ode contributed in even a small way to this gathering,
> or to the wave of efforts to learn more about (and to conserve) the odonate
> fauna of this or any other region, then along with regret for having
> introduced a corruption, perhaps we can also feel a little gladness.
> 
> There are many words for which there are multiple meanings, and
> interpretation therefore often comes down to context. We wanted to be sure
> that the context was clear in this situation.
> 
> And given the topic, perhaps it is appropriate to end with this:
> 
> Oh, fellow odonatologists,
> tis a life of turns and twists,
> twas only enthusiasm, and not offense,
> for which we sincerely wished.
> 
> With our humblest apologies, and our greatest hopes for many productive and
> inspiring field seasons to come,
> 
> Jackie Sones and Blair Nikula
> 
> 
> 
> From: Dennis Paulson 
> To: Ronald Orenstein  
> Cc: Odonata-l ; Kathy Biggs 
> Sent: Sunday, April 2, 2017 6:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns
> 
> I think it is very recent indeed, and Ill go on record as someone who wishes 
it hadnt been coined. Using ode as a noun was very distasteful to Philip 
Corbet, and I probably was influenced by that. It may have originated, not that 
many years ago, as an equivalent to lep as a contraction of lepidopteran. 
Butterfly people talk about leps all the time, but I dont think Ive heard 
anyone say lets go lepping. 

> 
> Sometimes it seems as if (at least in American society) were in such a hurry 
to do everything that we even have to be in a hurry to speak, and then its too 
much trouble to say lets go out looking for dragonflies, or damselflies or 
odonates or Odonata. Even dragons and damsels would be better than odes as 
contractions, but languages evolve to keep up with usage, as we all know, and 
perhaps more people use odes for Odonata than for poems nowadays! 

> 
> Dennis Paulson
> Seattle, WA
> 
> On Apr 2, 2017, at 5:33 PM, Ronald Orenstein  
wrote: 

> 
>> How recent is the verb "to ode?"
>> 
>> Ronald Orenstein 
>> 1825 Shady Creek Court
>> Mississauga, ON
>> Canada L5L 3W2
>> ronorenstein.blogspot.com
>> 
>>> On Apr 2, 2017, at 4:37 PM, Kathy Biggs  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Have you noticed that we have a new verb in the English language? 
>>> "Photoshop"
>>> Definition - to change a photo digitally, using ANY photo editing 
>>> program? And not just for big changes, even just uping the contrast a 
>>> smidgen...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Odonata-l mailing list
>>> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>>> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>> _______________________________________________
>> Odonata-l mailing list
>> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>> 
> 
> -----
> Dennis Paulson
> 1724 NE 98 St.
> Seattle, WA 98115
> 206-528-1382
> dennispaulson AT comcast.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> 
> 

-----
Dennis Paulson
1724 NE 98 St.
Seattle, WA 98115
206-528-1382
dennispaulson AT comcast.net



_______________________________________________
Odonata-l mailing list
Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 18:28:28 -0700
I think it is very recent indeed, and Ill go on record as someone who wishes 
it hadnt been coined. Using ode as a noun was very distasteful to Philip 
Corbet, and I probably was influenced by that. It may have originated, not that 
many years ago, as an equivalent to lep as a contraction of lepidopteran. 
Butterfly people talk about leps all the time, but I dont think Ive heard 
anyone say lets go lepping. 


Sometimes it seems as if (at least in American society) were in such a hurry 
to do everything that we even have to be in a hurry to speak, and then its too 
much trouble to say lets go out looking for dragonflies, or damselflies or 
odonates or Odonata. Even dragons and damsels would be better than odes as 
contractions, but languages evolve to keep up with usage, as we all know, and 
perhaps more people use odes for Odonata than for poems nowadays! 


Dennis Paulson
Seattle, WA

On Apr 2, 2017, at 5:33 PM, Ronald Orenstein  wrote:

> How recent is the verb "to ode?"
> 
> Ronald Orenstein 
> 1825 Shady Creek Court
> Mississauga, ON
> Canada L5L 3W2
> ronorenstein.blogspot.com
> 
>> On Apr 2, 2017, at 4:37 PM, Kathy Biggs  wrote:
>> 
>> Have you noticed that we have a new verb in the English language? 
>> "Photoshop"
>> Definition - to change a photo digitally, using ANY photo editing 
>> program? And not just for big changes, even just uping the contrast a 
>> smidgen...
>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Odonata-l mailing list
>> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l

-----
Dennis Paulson
1724 NE 98 St.
Seattle, WA 98115
206-528-1382
dennispaulson AT comcast.net



_______________________________________________
Odonata-l mailing list
Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns
From: Ronald Orenstein <ron.orenstein AT rogers.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 20:33:46 -0400
How recent is the verb "to ode?"

Ronald Orenstein 
1825 Shady Creek Court
Mississauga, ON
Canada L5L 3W2
ronorenstein.blogspot.com

> On Apr 2, 2017, at 4:37 PM, Kathy Biggs  wrote:
> 
> Have you noticed that we have a new verb in the English language? 
> "Photoshop"
> Definition - to change a photo digitally, using ANY photo editing 
> program? And not just for big changes, even just uping the contrast a 
> smidgen...
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
_______________________________________________
Odonata-l mailing list
Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns
From: Kathy Biggs <bigsnest AT sonic.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 13:37:59 -0700
Have you noticed that we have a new verb in the English language? 
"Photoshop"
Definition - to change a photo digitally, using ANY photo editing 
program? And not just for big changes, even just uping the contrast a 
smidgen...


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

_______________________________________________
Odonata-l mailing list
Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns
From: Colin Adams <colinpauladams AT gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 18:16:03 +0000
It DOES fly rather fast :-)

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 at 19:09 June Tveekrem  wrote:

> The glow around the dragonfly must be Cherenkov radiation. ;-)
>
> June Tveekrem
> Columbia, MD, US
>
>
> On Apr 1, 2017, at 4:59 AM, Adolfo Cordero Rivera <
> acorderorivera AT gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Very strange, indeed. Do you propose that the "aura" around the
> Epophthalmia is something of a radiation? Which kind of radiation could
> produce this clearly observable image?
>
> Adolfo
>
> O 1 abr, 2017 10:16 a.m., "Colin Adams" 
> escribiu:
>
> High background radiation levels* in Beijing during July 2016 led to some
> surprising observations. In an urban park in the DaXing district of the
> city, numbers of Pantala flavescens observed were tiny, prior to three days
> of heavy rain. After the rain they were extremely abundant, so presumably
> had been transported by the rains, and so had not previously been exposed
> to the local radiation levels. Nevertheless, the effects was still
> sufficient to cause them to fly at night (see first attachment).
>
> Local residents Epophthalmia elegans were presumably exposed for much
> longer. This no doubt explains the additional effects clearly observable in
> the second attachment.
>
>
>
>
> [image: 143803510_01.jpg]<102530660_02.jpg>
>
> * (owing to the unnatural mix of a Marxist government pursuing capitalist
> economic policies)
>
>
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Subject: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns
From: Colin Adams <colinpauladams AT gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 08:16:50 +0000
High background radiation levels* in Beijing during July 2016 led to some
surprising observations. In an urban park in the DaXing district of the
city, numbers of Pantala flavescens observed were tiny, prior to three days
of heavy rain. After the rain they were extremely abundant, so presumably
had been transported by the rains, and so had not previously been exposed
to the local radiation levels. Nevertheless, the effects was still
sufficient to cause them to fly at night (see first attachment).

Local residents Epophthalmia elegans were presumably exposed for much
longer. This no doubt explains the additional effects clearly observable in
the second attachment.



[image: 143803510_01.jpg][image: 102530660_02.jpg]
* (owing to the unnatural mix of a Marxist government pursuing capitalist
economic policies)_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns
From: Hal White <halwhite AT udel.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 13:08:24 -0400
Thank you. You caught me! Nice going. Hal


On 4/1/2017 12:37 PM, Bob Solem wrote:
>
> Hal,
>
> Did you look at the calendar this morning???
>
> Bob Solem
> odenata AT msn.com
> Laurel MD 20723
> On 4/1/2017 11:30 AM, Hal White wrote:
>>
>> I don't see any cause and effect here, just an isolated observation 
>> of a chance coincidence. I have seen /P. flavescens/ attracted to 
>> lights at night more than once in the US. Don't believe everything in 
>> this era of fake news.
>>
>> P.S. There were no attachments with this message.
>>
>>
>> On 4/1/2017 4:16 AM, Colin Adams wrote:
>>> High background radiation levels* in Beijing during July 2016 led to 
>>> some surprising observations. In an urban park in the DaXing 
>>> district of the city, numbers of Pantala flavescens observed were 
>>> tiny, prior to three days of heavy rain. After the rain they were 
>>> extremely abundant, so presumably had been transported by the rains, 
>>> and so had not previously been exposed to the local radiation 
>>> levels. Nevertheless, the effects was still sufficient to cause them 
>>> to fly at night (see first attachment).
>>>
>>> Local residents Epophthalmia elegans were presumably exposed for 
>>> much longer. This no doubt explains the additional effects clearly 
>>> observable in the second attachment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 143803510_01.jpg102530660_02.jpg
>>> * (owing to the unnatural mix of a Marxist government pursuing 
>>> capitalist economic policies)
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Odonata-l mailing list
>>> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>>> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Odonata-l mailing list
>> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>
>
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Subject: Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns
From: Colin Adams <colinpauladams AT gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 18:01:07 +0000
I've never used Photoshop in my life.
Darktable is wonderful though. But in this case, just a little darkening of
the background to the second photo (both were taken with high-speed sync
flash, so as to use 1/4000 at f/8 and low noise. This tends to give dark
backgrounds, but in the case of the E. elegans, it was taken from above, so
the water was almost the same distance away as the dragonfly. And it was
strongly lit by the sun.

On a more serious issue, note the shallow angle of the wings of the E.
elegans. It took me 15 days to get this photo, they fly so fast. I only got
two others in sharp focus during that period, but there were several other
that were only a little blurry. In all cases the wings were at a shallow
angle to the horizontal. Not enough cases to be certain, but it is
suggestive to me that they don't move there wings much in flight. Which is
highly counter-intuitive to me, since they fly so fast.

Has anyone ever got high-speed video footage of this or any other
Macromiidae in flight?

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 at 18:44 Dennis Paulson 
wrote:

> Isn’t Photoshop wonderful? Especially on April 1st. Good job, Colin!
>
> Dennis Paulson
> Seattle
>
> On Apr 1, 2017, at 1:16 AM, Colin Adams  wrote:
>
> High background radiation levels* in Beijing during July 2016 led to some
> surprising observations. In an urban park in the DaXing district of the
> city, numbers of Pantala flavescens observed were tiny, prior to three days
> of heavy rain. After the rain they were extremely abundant, so presumably
> had been transported by the rains, and so had not previously been exposed
> to the local radiation levels. Nevertheless, the effects was still
> sufficient to cause them to fly at night (see first attachment).
>
> Local residents Epophthalmia elegans were presumably exposed for much
> longer. This no doubt explains the additional effects clearly observable in
> the second attachment.
>
>
>
>
> <143803510_01.jpg><102530660_02.jpg>
>
> * (owing to the unnatural mix of a Marxist government pursuing capitalist
> economic policies)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
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Subject: Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 10:44:33 -0700
Isnt Photoshop wonderful? Especially on April 1st. Good job, Colin!

Dennis Paulson
Seattle

On Apr 1, 2017, at 1:16 AM, Colin Adams  wrote:

> High background radiation levels* in Beijing during July 2016 led to some 
surprising observations. In an urban park in the DaXing district of the city, 
numbers of Pantala flavescens observed were tiny, prior to three days of heavy 
rain. After the rain they were extremely abundant, so presumably had been 
transported by the rains, and so had not previously been exposed to the local 
radiation levels. Nevertheless, the effects was still sufficient to cause them 
to fly at night (see first attachment). 

> 
> Local residents Epophthalmia elegans were presumably exposed for much longer. 
This no doubt explains the additional effects clearly observable in the second 
attachment. 

> 
> 
> 
> <143803510_01.jpg><102530660_02.jpg>
> * (owing to the unnatural mix of a Marxist government pursuing capitalist 
economic policies) 

> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l

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Subject: Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns
From: Bob Solem <odenata AT msn.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 16:37:36 +0000
Hal,

Did you look at the calendar this morning???

Bob Solem
odenata AT msn.com
Laurel MD 20723

On 4/1/2017 11:30 AM, Hal White wrote:

I don't see any cause and effect here, just an isolated observation of a chance 
coincidence. I have seen P. flavescens attracted to lights at night more than 
once in the US. Don't believe everything in this era of fake news. 


P.S. There were no attachments with this message.

On 4/1/2017 4:16 AM, Colin Adams wrote:
High background radiation levels* in Beijing during July 2016 led to some 
surprising observations. In an urban park in the DaXing district of the city, 
numbers of Pantala flavescens observed were tiny, prior to three days of heavy 
rain. After the rain they were extremely abundant, so presumably had been 
transported by the rains, and so had not previously been exposed to the local 
radiation levels. Nevertheless, the effects was still sufficient to cause them 
to fly at night (see first attachment). 


Local residents Epophthalmia elegans were presumably exposed for much longer. 
This no doubt explains the additional effects clearly observable in the second 
attachment. 




[143803510_01.jpg][102530660_02.jpg]
* (owing to the unnatural mix of a Marxist government pursuing capitalist 
economic policies) 




_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns
From: Adolfo Cordero Rivera <acorderorivera AT gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 10:59:31 +0200
Very strange, indeed. Do you propose that the "aura" around the
Epophthalmia is something of a radiation? Which kind of radiation could
produce this clearly observable image?
Adolfo

O 1 abr, 2017 10:16 a.m., "Colin Adams"  escribiu:

High background radiation levels* in Beijing during July 2016 led to some
surprising observations. In an urban park in the DaXing district of the
city, numbers of Pantala flavescens observed were tiny, prior to three days
of heavy rain. After the rain they were extremely abundant, so presumably
had been transported by the rains, and so had not previously been exposed
to the local radiation levels. Nevertheless, the effects was still
sufficient to cause them to fly at night (see first attachment).

Local residents Epophthalmia elegans were presumably exposed for much
longer. This no doubt explains the additional effects clearly observable in
the second attachment.



[image: 143803510_01.jpg][image: 102530660_02.jpg]
* (owing to the unnatural mix of a Marxist government pursuing capitalist
economic policies)

_______________________________________________
Odonata-l mailing list
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Subject: Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns
From: Colin Adams <colinpauladams AT gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 17:09:25 +0000
It needs the attachments though.

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 at 18:08 Hal White  wrote:

> Thank you. You caught me! Nice going. Hal
>
> On 4/1/2017 12:37 PM, Bob Solem wrote:
>
> Hal,
>
> Did you look at the calendar this morning???
>
> Bob Solemodenata AT msn.com
> Laurel MD 20723
>
> On 4/1/2017 11:30 AM, Hal White wrote:
>
> I don't see any cause and effect here, just an isolated observation of a
> chance coincidence. I have seen *P. flavescens* attracted to lights at
> night more than once in the US. Don't believe everything in this era of
> fake news.
>
> P.S. There were no attachments with this message.
>
> On 4/1/2017 4:16 AM, Colin Adams wrote:
>
> High background radiation levels* in Beijing during July 2016 led to some
> surprising observations. In an urban park in the DaXing district of the
> city, numbers of Pantala flavescens observed were tiny, prior to three days
> of heavy rain. After the rain they were extremely abundant, so presumably
> had been transported by the rains, and so had not previously been exposed
> to the local radiation levels. Nevertheless, the effects was still
> sufficient to cause them to fly at night (see first attachment).
>
> Local residents Epophthalmia elegans were presumably exposed for much
> longer. This no doubt explains the additional effects clearly observable in
> the second attachment.
>
>
>
> [image: 143803510_01.jpg][image: 102530660_02.jpg]
> * (owing to the unnatural mix of a Marxist government pursuing capitalist
> economic policies)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing 
listOdonata-l AT listhost.ups.eduhttps://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l 

>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing 
listOdonata-l AT listhost.ups.eduhttps://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l 

>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing 
listOdonata-l AT listhost.ups.eduhttps://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l 

>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Some effects of radiation on diurnal flight patterns
From: Hal White <halwhite AT udel.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 11:30:38 -0400
I don't see any cause and effect here, just an isolated observation of a 
chance coincidence. I have seen /P. flavescens/ attracted to lights at 
night more than once in the US. Don't believe everything in this era of 
fake news.

P.S. There were no attachments with this message.


On 4/1/2017 4:16 AM, Colin Adams wrote:
> High background radiation levels* in Beijing during July 2016 led to 
> some surprising observations. In an urban park in the DaXing district 
> of the city, numbers of Pantala flavescens observed were tiny, prior 
> to three days of heavy rain. After the rain they were extremely 
> abundant, so presumably had been transported by the rains, and so had 
> not previously been exposed to the local radiation levels. 
> Nevertheless, the effects was still sufficient to cause them to fly at 
> night (see first attachment).
>
> Local residents Epophthalmia elegans were presumably exposed for much 
> longer. This no doubt explains the additional effects clearly 
> observable in the second attachment.
>
>
>
> 143803510_01.jpg102530660_02.jpg
> * (owing to the unnatural mix of a Marxist government pursuing 
> capitalist economic policies)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Odonate larvae making sounds?
From: "Dubois, Robert - DNR" <Robert.Dubois AT wisconsin.gov>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 21:40:57 +0000
Very interesting! The clump of Ophiogomphus smithi exuviae in the attached 
image was about a half meter above the waters' edge on a piece of root on a 
near vertical area of undercut bank. Plenty of other exposed root stems in the 
area to choose from. There were only a few other exuviae in the area, one every 
few meters or so, so I doubt this happened by any sort of chance. I'm wondering 
about the 'chemical trail" idea too (what other kind of trail could they be 
following?). I couldn't resist doing some speculating about some larger-scale 
emergence site preferences in a note in Argia in 2015 (27(4): 9-13) as well. 
I'll be interested to learn what you come up with for an experimental design 
Ola! 

Bob

We are committed to service excellence.
Visit our survey at http://dnr.wi.gov/customersurvey to evaluate how I did.

Robert B. DuBois
Phone: (715) 392-6976
robert.dubois AT wisconsin.gov

From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu 
[mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Fincke, Ola M. 

Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 3:05 PM
To: Dennis Paulson
Cc: Odonata-l; Mark O'Brien; David Fitch; Rowe, Richard; trybulj AT potsdam.edu
Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?

I think this clumping phenomenon is real, and different from what one sees in 
lots of say, coenagrionids. 

But as far as Macromia goes, they go up the trees during the night, and emerge 
in early morning where the light hits the higher parts of the trees early - and 
they disperse before the birds are up - when I say clumped, you may have 6 on 
the same tree, but I can definitely show non-random selection of trees, another 
experiment that I need to do to show how they do this. And you are right on 
with where to study this - I use banks of lakes :) 

Ola

From: Dennis Paulson [mailto:dennispaulson AT comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 1:30 PM
To: Fincke, Ola M. >
Cc: Mark O'Brien >; Odonata-l 
>; 
trybulj AT potsdam.edu; David Fitch 
>; Rowe, Richard 
> 

Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?

This is all very interesting stuff. I too have seen emergence clumping but 
didn't think too much of it, as there were plenty of exuviae away from the 
clumps as well. You'd have to look at a fairly substantial sample area and 
assess the distribution of emergence sites, not just from what you can see 
above the water but how they are distributed below the surface as well. Perhaps 
bottom topography leads a higher proportion of emerging larvae to particular 
clumps of emergent vegetation. 


Seems to me that linear surfaces such as beaches, banks or walls (e.g., under 
bridges) where they emerge would be good places to study this, much easier than 
where clumps of vegetation emerge from the water at random places. 


Also, we should consider predator attraction as well as predator satiation. The 
cicadas emerge in vast numbers, the odonates not, so 20 Macromia going up the 
same tree trunk might just be breakfast for some bird that would be attracted 
and then find them all at once. 


I have been at lake shores with evenly distributed emergent vegetation where 
hundreds or thousands of Enallagma were emerging, and I would say I saw no 
evidence of clumping there. Perhaps damselflies don't do it. 


Dennis

On Mar 24, 2017, at 9:13 AM, Fincke, Ola M. 
> wrote: 


Mark,
That would be my guess to the extent that they 'follow'. But you mean a 
concentrated odor from emergence sites - certainly another possibility if such 
cues persisted over days (I've recorded when emergences had occurred, and they 
definitely are temporally clumped. An engineering friend wanted to do an 
experiment to see if they detected pressure changes, which they likely could, 
but we never got him up to UMBS to test this. We actually saw two going in the 
forest on a rainy day - of course the rain didn't bother them, but one was sort 
of circling, as if it 'lost' any chemical 'trail'. Certainly something that 
could be approached experimentally. 

Ola

From: Mark O'Brien [mailto:mfobrien AT umich.edu]
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 10:48 AM
To: Fincke, Ola M. >
Cc: Dennis Paulson 
>; Odonata-l 
>; 
trybulj AT potsdam.edu; David Fitch 
>; Rowe, Richard 
> 

Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?

Such emergence clumping -- could it be a chemical cue as well?
Mark

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 6:59 PM, Fincke, Ola M. 
> wrote: 

I've done the same thing with Macromia illinoiensis. It sure looked like 
emergence was clumped, as well as clumping in the lab, not eating smaller 
conspecifics, etc. But then I started following emerging adults in the field. 
Many times, it seemed as if the 'congregation' was due to independent 
assessments of emergence sites. I still think they may 'follow' each other when 
they head off to the forest to emerge, and I think I mentioned that in the lab, 
I've had final instars 'congregate' all in the same tub, even though we started 
out with 5-6 final instar larvae each in its own tub. This latter phenomenon 
was really surprising....really like they were 'partying' before the mass 
emergence. An even more striking thing took place when we had ~ 30 final 
instars 'escape' on the same night, crawling out of their individual tubs and 
apparently all going into the boat well at some point during the night. My 
first reaction was that some pissed off student had 'sabotaged' our experiment 
that had been set up in a public space in the boat well. But I finally ruled 
that out, after seeing them congregate in the emergence cage (above incidence) 
from which they couldn't crawl away, but they did all crawl into the same tub 
as others. In that case, I did wonder whether the 'squeaking' could be used, 
but that would assume they had some way of detecting airborn, not water-born 
vibrations. And that may be too much to believe. Still, I remain fascinated, so 
any ref. besides Richard's which I got, would be greatly appreciated. 


I also have data on Hagenius brevistylus doing 'mass emergence' during the day. 
And I think that may definitely be an 'anti-predator' adaptation - they were 
all over the bank (they too, will crawl into forests to emerge, but certainly 
not as regularly or as far (and high up on trees) as the spidery-legged 
Macromia. Both Macromia and Hagenius get colonized by zebra mussels, and not 
surprisingly, those carrying mussels emerge closer to the beach, don't climb 
vertically as far, and have lower emergence success. I need to write all this 
up in some monograph. 

Ola

From: 
odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu 
[mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] 
On Behalf Of Dennis Paulson 

Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 8:46 AM
To: Odonata-l >
Cc: trybulj AT potsdam.edu; David Fitch 
>; Rowe, Richard 
>; Mark O'Brien 
> 


Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?

Sue, I could see this from an adaptive standpoint as overwhelming potential 
predators, on a tiny scale like the mass cicada emergences. Do you have any 
quantification of this clumping? It is indeed an interesting phenomenon and 
should be looked for by others monitoring emergence. 


Dennis Paulson
Seattle

On Mar 23, 2017, at 5:25 AM, John and Sue Gregoire 
> wrote: 


For years we have been monitoring the mass emergence of Celithemis elisa at our
pond. One of the most intriguing questions has concerned the phemonenon we call
"clumping" wherein the majority of larvae emerging at the same time seem to
"choose"
a particular plant on which to emerge even though there are similar plants
nearby.
We have always wondered if they somehow communicate and agree on the specific
location. This discussion sheds some light on the question.

Sue G.
--
John and Sue Gregoire
Field Ornithologists
Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
5373 Fitzgerald Road
Burdett,NY 14818-9626
N 42 26.611' W 76 45.492'
Website: 
http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/ 

"Conserve and Create Habitat"

On Wed, March 22, 2017 18:46, Dennis Paulson wrote:
Richard, your work with the interactions of damselfly larvae has shown some 
very 

interesting and little-known phenomena among odonates, and I wish other 
researchers 

would pick it up as well. We need to know a lot more about what our favorite 
insects 

are doing for the majority of their lives!

Dennis

On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:46 PM, Rowe, Richard 
> wrote: 


underwater setae will act as very effective sound detectors as there will be
displacement waves.

To add (unpublished) I was able to get interacting Diphlebia larvae on a
hydrophone I had borrowed and there were definite grating and click sounds
associated with visual displays. I had to give the hydrophone back (and it was 
too 

big to really investigate damselfly larvae) but 'sound' and vibration can be
generated by seemingly unspecialised body parts (cf the stridulatory apparatus 
of 

Epiophlebia), and we would need to detect both pressure (sound) and 
displacement 

waves. The later could be done with laser interferometry (for which I have the
plans, but couldn't excite interest from funders - it was too much for my 
pocket 

and too little for major granting bodies),

Richard

Dr Richard Rowe
erstwhile associate in the Graduate Research School
erstwhile adjunct in Zoology in
College of Marine and Environmental Sciences
James Cook University
Townsville 4811
AUSTRALIA

JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J
!!! my perpetual account at 
gmail.com 
is richard.rowe.dragonflies !!! 



From: DAVID ALLAN FITCH >
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 2:13
To: Chill AT coastal.edu; 
fincke AT ou.edu 

Cc: trybulj AT potsdam.edu; 
mfobrien AT umich.edu; 
odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu; Rowe, 

Richard
Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?

I am reminded of a time I collected 4 Macromia larvae of different instars on 
the 

Squanicook River, placed them all in a vial, and had only one (plus a few legs) 
in 

the vial when I got home a few hours later.

How would one design an experiment to confirm use of stridulating, or other
mechanical vibration, for signaling or synchronizing? It opens vistas of social 

interaction among aquatics which I've always considered irrelevant to odonate
adults as lacking "hearing" receptors.

David Allan Fitch



-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Hill >
To: Fincke, Ola M. >
Cc: Chill >; Jan Trybula 
>; Mark O'Brien 

>; odonata-l 
>; Rowe, Richard 

>
Sent: Wed, Mar 22, 2017 11:53 am
Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?

Thanks, everybody!

Richard, I will track down your book and read up!

Ola, Macromia, not Micromia, right?

DAF and MO'B:  :-)

Jan: that was my thought on the mechanism, too, but I hadn't watched closely
enough to confirm it.

Best,

CH

On Mar 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Fincke, Ola M. 
> wrote: 


YES!! Although I also simply attributed the noise to the jet propulsion 
mechanism 

out of water when I handled them,  I got very excited when it seemed  that my
Micromia larvae were also doing it for communication. Indeed, I wanted to do 
some 

recordings of it as it seemed they were communicating and  might synchronize
emergence via this mechanism. They actually 'got together' in the same 
container, 

as if they were having a party. Most unusual behavior for larvae that potential
can eat each other.
Anyone want to collaborate?  At least it's worth a note for starters.
Ola

Dr. Ola Fincke
Ecology and Evolutionary Biology Graduate Program
Dept. of Biology
730 Van Vleet Oval, RIchards Hall 314,
University of Oklahoma
Norman, OK 73019-4105
fincke AT ou.edu
Tel. (405)325-5514
FAX (405)325-6202
http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/F/Ola.M.Fincke-1/



From: 
odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu 

[mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Mark O'Brien
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:44 AM
To: Rowe, Richard >
Cc: Jan Trybula >; 
odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu 

Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?

Sounds like a name for a new rock band -- The Squeaking Ophios.
:)

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 6:50 PM, Rowe, Richard 
> wrote: 

Petaluridae ... Uropetala ... grating chirp ... Rowe 1987 p136

Dr Richard Rowe
erstwhile associate in the Graduate Research School
erstwhile adjunct in Zoology in
College of Marine and Environmental Sciences
James Cook University
Townsville 4811
AUSTRALIA

JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J
!!! my perpetual account at 
gmail.com 
is richard.rowe.dragonflies !!! 


From: 
odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu 
> 
on 

behalf of Jan Trybula >
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:30
To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?

When raising Ophios a few years back I sometimes heard a soft creaking sound. 
I've 

also noticed this when handling them and some other larval odes. Out of water I
always associated it with an attempt to move via abdominal contraction (jet
propulsion) while out of water/dry.

--
Jan Trybula, Ph.D.
Associate Professor & Chair
Department of Biology
SUNY Potsdam
44 Pierrepont Avenue
Potsdam, NY 13676

315-267-2258
trybulj AT potsdam.edu

On 3/21/17, 11:36 AM, "odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu on behalf of 
Christopher 


Hill" 
> 
wrote: 


   On several occasions I have heard larval Ophiogomphus making soft barking
sounds.  I do not know the mechanism they use to produce the sounds, and I
don't know if any other odonates make sounds.  When I have mentioned this to
others, I have gotten blank stares (or the equivalent) in response.

   Larvae of Epiophlebia have been documented to make sounds, apparently by
stridulating, and the source cited for that observation is Asahina 1939, which
I have not read.  But I find no other references to odonate larvae making
noises - all recent reviews of sounds made by aquatic insects point back to
Epiophlebia only among the Odonata.

   Has anyone else heard any odonate larvae making sounds?

   Chris Hill
   Conway, SC

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   Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
 
https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l 

Odonata-l Info Page - University of Puget Sound

mailweb.pugetsound.edu 

ODONATA-L is an e-mail list about dragonfly biology sponsored by the University 
of 

Puget Sound, Tacoma, Washington. It is intended for both professionals and
amateurs ...




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ODONATA-L is an e-mail list about dragonfly biology sponsored by the University 
of 

Puget Sound, Tacoma, Washington. It is intended for both professionals and
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--
------------------------------------------------------------
Mark F. O'Brien, Collection Manager
Insect Division, Museum of Zoology
Research Museums Center
The University of Michigan
3600 Varsity Drive
Ann Arbor, MI 48108
(734)-647-2199
-------------------------------------------------------------
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-----
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206-528-1382
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https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l 



-----
Dennis Paulson
1724 NE 98 St.
Seattle, WA 98115
206-528-1382
dennispaulson AT comcast.net






--
------------------------------------------------------------
Mark F. O'Brien, Collection Manager
Insect Division, Museum of Zoology
Research Museums Center
The University of Michigan
3600 Varsity Drive
Ann Arbor, MI 48108
(734)-647-2199
-------------------------------------------------------------
See us on Facebook! 
https://www.facebook.com/museumofzoology 

-------------------------------------------------------------

http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=l_kVoLMAAAAJ 


-----
Dennis Paulson
1724 NE 98 St.
Seattle, WA 98115
206-528-1382
dennispaulson AT comcast.net


_______________________________________________
Odonata-l mailing list
Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Odonate larvae making sounds?
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 16:00:21 -0700
Bobs post reminds me that we can attach photos in this listserv, but now Im 
attaching an image of non-clumped emergence in Enallagma annexum in Washington. 
Imagine a large lake ringed with bulrushes and this occurring all the way 
around it on a nice day in mid June. Ive estimated total emergences in the 
hundreds of thousands on a day like this, even wondered about a million. The 
blackbirds breeding there just love it! 


Dennis


On Mar 24, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Dubois, Robert - DNR  
wrote: 


> Very interesting! The clump of Ophiogomphus smithi exuviae in the attached 
image was about a half meter above the waters edge on a piece of root on a 
near vertical area of undercut bank. Plenty of other exposed root stems in the 
area to choose from. There were only a few other exuviae in the area, one every 
few meters or so, so I doubt this happened by any sort of chance. Im wondering 
about the chemical trail idea too (what other kind of trail could they be 
following?). I couldnt resist doing some speculating about some larger-scale 
emergence site preferences in a note in Argia in 2015 (27(4): 9-13) as well. 
Ill be interested to learn what you come up with for an experimental design 
Ola! 

> Bob
>  
> We are committed to service excellence.
> Visit our survey at http://dnr.wi.gov/customersurvey to evaluate how I did.
>  
> Robert B. DuBois
> Phone: (715) 392-6976
> robert.dubois AT wisconsin.gov

_______________________________________________
Odonata-l mailing list
Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Odonate larvae making sounds?
From: "Mark O'Brien" <mfobrien AT umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 11:48:01 -0400
Such emergence clumping -- could it be a chemical cue as well?
Mark

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 6:59 PM, Fincke, Ola M.  wrote:

> I’ve done the same thing with *Macromia illinoiensis*. It sure looked
> like emergence was clumped, as well as clumping in the lab, not eating
> smaller conspecifics, etc. But then I started following emerging adults in
> the field. Many times, it seemed as if the ‘congregation’ was due to
> independent assessments of emergence sites. I still think they may 
‘follow’ 

> each other when they head off to the forest to emerge, and I think I
> mentioned that in the lab, I’ve had final instars ‘congregate’ all in 
the 

> same tub, even though we started out with 5-6 final instar larvae each in
> its own tub. This latter phenomenon was really surprising….really like they
> were ‘partying’ before the mass emergence. An even more striking thing 
took 

> place when we had ~ 30 final instars ‘escape’ on the same night, crawling
> out of their individual tubs and apparently all going into the boat well at
> some point during the night. My first reaction was that some pissed off
> student had ‘sabotaged’ our experiment that had been set up in a public
> space in the boat well. But I finally ruled that out, after seeing them
> congregate in the emergence cage (above incidence) from which they couldn’t
> crawl away, but they did all crawl into the same tub as others. In that
> case, I did wonder whether the ‘squeaking’ could be used, but that would
> assume they had some way of detecting airborn, not water-born vibrations.
> And that may be too much to believe. Still, I remain fascinated, so any
> ref. besides Richard’s which I got, would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>
> I also have data on *Hagenius brevistylus* doing ‘mass emergence’ during
> the day. And I think that may definitely be an ‘anti-predator’ adaptation 
– 

> they were all over the bank (they too, will crawl into forests to emerge,
> but certainly not as regularly or as far (and high up on trees) as the
> spidery-legged Macromia. Both *Macromia* and *Hagenius *get colonized by
> zebra mussels, and not surprisingly, those carrying mussels emerge closer
> to the beach, don’t climb vertically as far, and have lower emergence
> success. I need to write all this up in some monograph.
>
> Ola
>
>
>
> *From:* odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT 
> listhost.ups.edu] *On Behalf Of *Dennis Paulson
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2017 8:46 AM
> *To:* Odonata-l 
> *Cc:* trybulj AT potsdam.edu; David Fitch ; Rowe,
> Richard ; Mark O'Brien 
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
>
>
>
> Sue, I could see this from an adaptive standpoint as overwhelming
> potential predators, on a tiny scale like the mass cicada emergences. Do
> you have any quantification of this clumping? It is indeed an interesting
> phenomenon and should be looked for by others monitoring emergence.
>
>
>
> Dennis Paulson
>
> Seattle
>
>
>
> On Mar 23, 2017, at 5:25 AM, John and Sue Gregoire 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> For years we have been monitoring the mass emergence of Celithemis elisa
> at our
> pond. One of the most intriguing questions has concerned the phemonenon we
> call
> "clumping" wherein the majority of larvae emerging at the same time seem to
> "choose"
> a particular plant on which to emerge even though there are similar plants
> nearby.
> We have always wondered if they somehow communicate and agree on the
> specific
> location. This discussion sheds some light on the question.
>
> Sue G.
> --
> John and Sue Gregoire
> Field Ornithologists
> Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
> 5373 Fitzgerald Road
> Burdett,NY 14818-9626
> N 42 26.611' W 76 45.492'
> Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
> 
 

> "Conserve and Create Habitat"
>
> On Wed, March 22, 2017 18:46, Dennis Paulson wrote:
>
> Richard, your work with the interactions of damselfly larvae has shown
> some very
> interesting and little-known phenomena among odonates, and I wish other
> researchers
> would pick it up as well. We need to know a lot more about what our
> favorite insects
> are doing for the majority of their lives!
>
> Dennis
>
> On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:46 PM, Rowe, Richard 
> wrote:
>
>
> underwater setae will act as very effective sound detectors as there will
> be
> displacement waves.
>
> To add (unpublished) I was able to get interacting Diphlebia larvae on a
> hydrophone I had borrowed and there were definite grating and click sounds
> associated with visual displays. I had to give the hydrophone back (and it
> was too
> big to really investigate damselfly larvae) but 'sound' and vibration can
> be
> generated by seemingly unspecialised body parts (cf the stridulatory
> apparatus of
> Epiophlebia), and we would need to detect both pressure (sound) and
> displacement
> waves. The later could be done with laser interferometry (for which I have
> the
> plans, but couldn't excite interest from funders - it was too much for my
> pocket
> and too little for major granting bodies),
>
> Richard
>
> Dr Richard Rowe
> erstwhile associate in the Graduate Research School
> erstwhile adjunct in Zoology in
> College of Marine and Environmental Sciences
> James Cook University
> Townsville 4811
> AUSTRALIA
>
> JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J
> !!! my perpetual account at gmail.com
> 
 

>  is richard.rowe.dragonflies !!!
>
>
> From: DAVID ALLAN FITCH 
> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 2:13
> To: Chill AT coastal.edu; fincke AT ou.edu
> Cc: trybulj AT potsdam.edu; mfobrien AT umich.edu; odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu;
> Rowe,
> Richard
> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
>
> I am reminded of a time I collected 4 Macromia larvae of different instars
> on the
> Squanicook River, placed them all in a vial, and had only one (plus a few
> legs) in
> the vial when I got home a few hours later.
>
> How would one design an experiment to confirm use of stridulating, or other
> mechanical vibration, for signaling or synchronizing?  It opens vistas of
> social
> interaction among aquatics which I've always considered irrelevant to
> odonate
> adults as lacking "hearing" receptors.
>
> David Allan Fitch
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher Hill 
> To: Fincke, Ola M. 
> Cc: Chill ; Jan Trybula ; Mark
> O'Brien
> ; odonata-l ; Rowe,
> Richard
> 
> Sent: Wed, Mar 22, 2017 11:53 am
> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
>
> Thanks, everybody!
>
> Richard, I will track down your book and read up!
>
> Ola, Macromia, not Micromia, right?
>
> DAF and MO'B:  :-)
>
> Jan: that was my thought on the mechanism, too, but I hadn’t watched
> closely
> enough to confirm it.
>
> Best,
>
> CH
>
> On Mar 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Fincke, Ola M.  wrote:
>
> YES!! Although I also simply attributed the noise to the jet propulsion
> mechanism
> out of water when I handled them,  I got very excited when it seemed  that
> my
> Micromia larvae were also doing it for communication. Indeed, I wanted to
> do some
> recordings of it as it seemed they were communicating and  might
> synchronize
> emergence via this mechanism. They actually ‘got together’ in the same
> container,
> as if they were having a party. Most unusual behavior for larvae that
> potential
> can eat each other.
> Anyone want to collaborate?  At least it’s worth a note for starters.
> Ola
>
> Dr. Ola Fincke
> Ecology and Evolutionary Biology Graduate Program
> Dept. of Biology
> 730 Van Vleet Oval, RIchards Hall 314,
> University of Oklahoma
> Norman, OK 73019-4105
> fincke AT ou.edu
> Tel. (405)325-5514 <(405)%20325-5514>
> FAX (405)325-6202 <(405)%20325-6202>
> http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/F/Ola.M.Fincke-1/
>
>
>
> From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu
> [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu
> ] On Behalf Of Mark O'Brien
> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:44 AM
> To: Rowe, Richard 
> Cc: Jan Trybula ; odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
>
> Sounds like a name for a new rock band -- The Squeaking Ophios.
> :)
>
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 6:50 PM, Rowe, Richard 
> wrote:
> Petaluridae ... Uropetala ... grating chirp ... Rowe 1987 p136
>
> Dr Richard Rowe
> erstwhile associate in the Graduate Research School
> erstwhile adjunct in Zoology in
> College of Marine and Environmental Sciences
> James Cook University
> Townsville 4811
> AUSTRALIA
>
> JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J
> !!! my perpetual account at gmail.com  is richard.rowe.dragonflies !!!
>
> From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu  ups.edu> on
> behalf of Jan Trybula 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:30
> To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
>
> When raising Ophios a few years back I sometimes heard a soft creaking
> sound. I’ve
> also noticed this when handling them and some other larval odes. Out of
> water I
> always associated it with an attempt to move via abdominal contraction (jet
> propulsion) while out of water/dry.
>
> --
> Jan Trybula, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor & Chair
> Department of Biology
> SUNY Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Avenue
> Potsdam, NY 13676
>
> 315-267-2258 <(315)%20267-2258>
> trybulj AT potsdam.edu
>
> On 3/21/17, 11:36 AM, "odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu on behalf of
> Christopher
> Hill
> "
>  wrote:
>
>    On several occasions I have heard larval Ophiogomphus making soft
> barking
> sounds.  I do not know the mechanism they use to produce the sounds, and I
> don’t know if any other odonates make sounds.  When I have mentioned this
> to
> others, I have gotten blank stares (or the equivalent) in response.
>
>    Larvae of Epiophlebia have been documented to make sounds, apparently by
> stridulating, and the source cited for that observation is Asahina 1939,
> which
> I have not read.  But I find no other references to odonate larvae making
> noises - all recent reviews of sounds made by aquatic insects point back to
> Epiophlebia only among the Odonata.
>
>    Has anyone else heard any odonate larvae making sounds?
>
>    Chris Hill
>    Conway, SC
>
>    _______________________________________________
>    Odonata-l mailing list
>    Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>    https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> Odonata-l Info Page - University of Puget Sound
> mailweb.pugetsound.edu
> ODONATA-L is an e-mail list about dragonfly biology sponsored by the
> University of
> Puget Sound, Tacoma, Washington. It is intended for both professionals and
> amateurs ...
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> Odonata-l Info Page - University of Puget Sound
> mailweb.pugetsound.edu
> ODONATA-L is an e-mail list about dragonfly biology sponsored by the
> University of
> Puget Sound, Tacoma, Washington. It is intended for both professionals and
> amateurs ...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Mark F. O'Brien, Collection Manager
> Insect Division, Museum of Zoology
> Research Museums Center
> The University of Michigan
> 3600 Varsity Drive
> Ann Arbor, MI 48108
> (734)-647-2199 <(734)%20647-2199>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> See us on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/museumofzoology
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=l_kVoLMAAAAJ
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>
> -----
> Dennis Paulson
> 1724 NE 98 St.
> Seattle, WA 98115
> 206-528-1382 <(206)%20528-1382>
> dennispaulson AT comcast.net
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
>
> Dennis Paulson
>
> 1724 NE 98 St.
>
> Seattle, WA 98115
>
> 206-528-1382 <(206)%20528-1382>
>
> dennispaulson AT comcast.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



-- 

------------------------------------------------------------

Mark F. O'Brien, Collection Manager

Insect Division, Museum of Zoology

Research Museums Center

The University of Michigan

3600 Varsity Drive

Ann Arbor, MI 48108

(734)-647-2199

-------------------------------------------------------------

See us on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/museumofzoology

-------------------------------------------------------------

http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=l_kVoLMAAAAJ_______________________________________________
Odonata-l mailing list
Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Odonate larvae making sounds?
From: "Mark O'Brien" <mfobrien AT umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:43:37 -0400
Sounds like a name for a new rock band -- The Squeaking Ophios.
:)

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 6:50 PM, Rowe, Richard 
wrote:

> Petaluridae ... Uropetala ... grating chirp ... Rowe 1987 p136
>
>
> Dr Richard Rowe
> erstwhile associate in the Graduate Research School
> erstwhile adjunct in Zoology in
> College of Marine and Environmental Sciences
> James Cook University
> Townsville 4811
> AUSTRALIA
>
> JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J
> !!! my perpetual account at gmail.com  is richard.rowe.dragonflies !!!
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu  ups.edu> on behalf of Jan Trybula 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:30
> *To:* odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
>
> When raising Ophios a few years back I sometimes heard a soft creaking
> sound. I’ve also noticed this when handling them and some other larval
> odes. Out of water I always associated it with an attempt to move via
> abdominal contraction (jet propulsion) while out of water/dry.
>
> --
> Jan Trybula, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor & Chair
> Department of Biology
> SUNY Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Avenue
> Potsdam, NY 13676
>
> 315-267-2258 <(315)%20267-2258>
> trybulj AT potsdam.edu
>
> On 3/21/17, 11:36 AM, "odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu on behalf of
> Christopher Hill"  Chill AT coastal.edu> wrote:
>
>     On several occasions I have heard larval Ophiogomphus making soft
> barking sounds.  I do not know the mechanism they use to produce the
> sounds, and I don’t know if any other odonates make sounds.  When I have
> mentioned this to others, I have gotten blank stares (or the equivalent) in
> response.
>
>     Larvae of Epiophlebia have been documented to make sounds, apparently
> by stridulating, and the source cited for that observation is Asahina 1939,
> which I have not read.  But I find no other references to odonate larvae
> making noises - all recent reviews of sounds made by aquatic insects point
> back to Epiophlebia only among the Odonata.
>
>     Has anyone else heard any odonate larvae making sounds?
>
>     Chris Hill
>     Conway, SC
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Odonata-l mailing list
>     Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>     https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> Odonata-l Info Page - University of Puget Sound
> 
> mailweb.pugetsound.edu
> ODONATA-L is an e-mail list about dragonfly biology sponsored by the
> University of Puget Sound, Tacoma, Washington. It is intended for both
> professionals and amateurs ...
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> Odonata-l Info Page - University of Puget Sound
> 
> mailweb.pugetsound.edu
> ODONATA-L is an e-mail list about dragonfly biology sponsored by the
> University of Puget Sound, Tacoma, Washington. It is intended for both
> professionals and amateurs ...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>


-- 

------------------------------------------------------------

Mark F. O'Brien, Collection Manager

Insect Division, Museum of Zoology

Research Museums Center

The University of Michigan

3600 Varsity Drive

Ann Arbor, MI 48108

(734)-647-2199

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Subject: Re: Odonate larvae making sounds?
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 11:30:22 -0700
This is all very interesting stuff. I too have seen emergence clumping but 
didnt think too much of it, as there were plenty of exuviae away from the 
clumps as well. Youd have to look at a fairly substantial sample area and 
assess the distribution of emergence sites, not just from what you can see 
above the water but how they are distributed below the surface as well. Perhaps 
bottom topography leads a higher proportion of emerging larvae to particular 
clumps of emergent vegetation. 


Seems to me that linear surfaces such as beaches, banks or walls (e.g., under 
bridges) where they emerge would be good places to study this, much easier than 
where clumps of vegetation emerge from the water at random places. 


Also, we should consider predator attraction as well as predator satiation. The 
cicadas emerge in vast numbers, the odonates not, so 20 Macromia going up the 
same tree trunk might just be breakfast for some bird that would be attracted 
and then find them all at once. 


I have been at lake shores with evenly distributed emergent vegetation where 
hundreds or thousands of Enallagma were emerging, and I would say I saw no 
evidence of clumping there. Perhaps damselflies dont do it. 


Dennis

On Mar 24, 2017, at 9:13 AM, Fincke, Ola M.  wrote:

> Mark,
> That would be my guess to the extent that they follow. But you mean a 
concentrated odor from emergence sites  certainly another possibility if such 
cues persisted over days (Ive recorded when emergences had occurred, and they 
definitely are temporally clumped. An engineering friend wanted to do an 
experiment to see if they detected pressure changes, which they likely could, 
but we never got him up to UMBS to test this. We actually saw two going in the 
forest on a rainy day  of course the rain didnt bother them, but one was sort 
of circling, as if it lost any chemical trail. Certainly something that 
could be approached experimentally. 

> Ola
>  
> From: Mark O'Brien [mailto:mfobrien AT umich.edu] 
> Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 10:48 AM
> To: Fincke, Ola M. 
> Cc: Dennis Paulson ; Odonata-l 
; trybulj AT potsdam.edu; David Fitch 
; Rowe, Richard  

> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
>  
> Such emergence clumping -- could it be a chemical cue as well? 
> Mark
>  
> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 6:59 PM, Fincke, Ola M.  wrote:
> Ive done the same thing with Macromia illinoiensis. It sure looked like 
emergence was clumped, as well as clumping in the lab, not eating smaller 
conspecifics, etc. But then I started following emerging adults in the field. 
Many times, it seemed as if the congregation was due to independent 
assessments of emergence sites. I still think they may follow each other when 
they head off to the forest to emerge, and I think I mentioned that in the lab, 
Ive had final instars congregate all in the same tub, even though we started 
out with 5-6 final instar larvae each in its own tub. This latter phenomenon 
was really surprising.really like they were partying before the mass 
emergence. An even more striking thing took place when we had ~ 30 final 
instars escape on the same night, crawling out of their individual tubs and 
apparently all going into the boat well at some point during the night. My 
first reaction was that some pissed off student had sabotaged our experiment 
that had been set up in a public space in the boat well. But I finally ruled 
that out, after seeing them congregate in the emergence cage (above incidence) 
from which they couldnt crawl away, but they did all crawl into the same tub 
as others. In that case, I did wonder whether the squeaking could be used, 
but that would assume they had some way of detecting airborn, not water-born 
vibrations. And that may be too much to believe. Still, I remain fascinated, so 
any ref. besides Richards which I got, would be greatly appreciated. 

>  
> I also have data on Hagenius brevistylus doing mass emergence during the 
day. And I think that may definitely be an anti-predator adaptation  they 
were all over the bank (they too, will crawl into forests to emerge, but 
certainly not as regularly or as far (and high up on trees) as the 
spidery-legged Macromia. Both Macromia and Hagenius get colonized by zebra 
mussels, and not surprisingly, those carrying mussels emerge closer to the 
beach, dont climb vertically as far, and have lower emergence success. I need 
to write all this up in some monograph. 

> Ola
>  
> From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu 
[mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Dennis Paulson 

> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 8:46 AM
> To: Odonata-l 
> Cc: trybulj AT potsdam.edu; David Fitch ; Rowe, Richard 
; Mark O'Brien  

> 
> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
>  
> Sue, I could see this from an adaptive standpoint as overwhelming potential 
predators, on a tiny scale like the mass cicada emergences. Do you have any 
quantification of this clumping? It is indeed an interesting phenomenon and 
should be looked for by others monitoring emergence. 

>  
> Dennis Paulson
> Seattle
>  
> On Mar 23, 2017, at 5:25 AM, John and Sue Gregoire  wrote:
>  
> 
> For years we have been monitoring the mass emergence of Celithemis elisa at 
our 

> pond. One of the most intriguing questions has concerned the phemonenon we 
call 

> "clumping" wherein the majority of larvae emerging at the same time seem to
> "choose"
> a particular plant on which to emerge even though there are similar plants
> nearby.
> We have always wondered if they somehow communicate and agree on the specific
> location. This discussion sheds some light on the question.
> 
> Sue G.
> -- 
> John and Sue Gregoire
> Field Ornithologists
> Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
> 5373 Fitzgerald Road
> Burdett,NY 14818-9626
> N 42 26.611' W 76 45.492'
> Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
> "Conserve and Create Habitat"
> 
> On Wed, March 22, 2017 18:46, Dennis Paulson wrote:
> 
> Richard, your work with the interactions of damselfly larvae has shown some 
very 

> interesting and little-known phenomena among odonates, and I wish other 
researchers 

> would pick it up as well. We need to know a lot more about what our favorite 
insects 

> are doing for the majority of their lives!
> 
> Dennis
> 
> On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:46 PM, Rowe, Richard  wrote:
> 
> 
> underwater setae will act as very effective sound detectors as there will be
> displacement waves.
> 
> To add (unpublished) I was able to get interacting Diphlebia larvae on a
> hydrophone I had borrowed and there were definite grating and click sounds
> associated with visual displays. I had to give the hydrophone back (and it 
was too 

> big to really investigate damselfly larvae) but 'sound' and vibration can be
> generated by seemingly unspecialised body parts (cf the stridulatory 
apparatus of 

> Epiophlebia), and we would need to detect both pressure (sound) and 
displacement 

> waves. The later could be done with laser interferometry (for which I have 
the 

> plans, but couldn't excite interest from funders - it was too much for my 
pocket 

> and too little for major granting bodies),
> 
> Richard
> 
> Dr Richard Rowe
> erstwhile associate in the Graduate Research School
> erstwhile adjunct in Zoology in
> College of Marine and Environmental Sciences
> James Cook University
> Townsville 4811
> AUSTRALIA
> 
> JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J
> !!! my perpetual account at gmail.com  is richard.rowe.dragonflies !!!
> 
> 
> From: DAVID ALLAN FITCH 
> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 2:13
> To: Chill AT coastal.edu; fincke AT ou.edu
> Cc: trybulj AT potsdam.edu; mfobrien AT umich.edu; odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu; 
Rowe, 

> Richard
> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
> 
> I am reminded of a time I collected 4 Macromia larvae of different instars on 
the 

> Squanicook River, placed them all in a vial, and had only one (plus a few 
legs) in 

> the vial when I got home a few hours later.
> 
> How would one design an experiment to confirm use of stridulating, or other
> mechanical vibration, for signaling or synchronizing? It opens vistas of 
social 

> interaction among aquatics which I've always considered irrelevant to odonate
> adults as lacking "hearing" receptors.
> 
> David Allan Fitch
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher Hill 
> To: Fincke, Ola M. 
> Cc: Chill ; Jan Trybula ; Mark O'Brien
> ; odonata-l ; Rowe, Richard
> 
> Sent: Wed, Mar 22, 2017 11:53 am
> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
> 
> Thanks, everybody!
> 
> Richard, I will track down your book and read up!
> 
> Ola, Macromia, not Micromia, right?
> 
> DAF and MO'B:  :-)
> 
> Jan: that was my thought on the mechanism, too, but I hadnt watched closely
> enough to confirm it.
> 
> Best,
> 
> CH
> 
> On Mar 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Fincke, Ola M.  wrote:
> 
> YES!! Although I also simply attributed the noise to the jet propulsion 
mechanism 

> out of water when I handled them,  I got very excited when it seemed  that my
> Micromia larvae were also doing it for communication. Indeed, I wanted to do 
some 

> recordings of it as it seemed they were communicating and  might synchronize
> emergence via this mechanism. They actually got together in the same 
container, 

> as if they were having a party. Most unusual behavior for larvae that 
potential 

> can eat each other.
> Anyone want to collaborate?  At least its worth a note for starters.
> Ola
> 
> Dr. Ola Fincke
> Ecology and Evolutionary Biology Graduate Program
> Dept. of Biology
> 730 Van Vleet Oval, RIchards Hall 314,
> University of Oklahoma
> Norman, OK 73019-4105
> fincke AT ou.edu
> Tel. (405)325-5514
> FAX (405)325-6202
> http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/F/Ola.M.Fincke-1/
> 
> 
> 
> From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu
> [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Mark O'Brien
> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:44 AM
> To: Rowe, Richard 
> Cc: Jan Trybula ; odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
> 
> Sounds like a name for a new rock band -- The Squeaking Ophios.
> :)
> 
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 6:50 PM, Rowe, Richard  
wrote: 

> Petaluridae ... Uropetala ... grating chirp ... Rowe 1987 p136
> 
> Dr Richard Rowe
> erstwhile associate in the Graduate Research School
> erstwhile adjunct in Zoology in
> College of Marine and Environmental Sciences
> James Cook University
> Townsville 4811
> AUSTRALIA
> 
> JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J
> !!! my perpetual account at gmail.com  is richard.rowe.dragonflies !!!
> 
> From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu  
on 

> behalf of Jan Trybula 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:30
> To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
> 
> When raising Ophios a few years back I sometimes heard a soft creaking sound. 
Ive 

> also noticed this when handling them and some other larval odes. Out of water 
I 

> always associated it with an attempt to move via abdominal contraction (jet
> propulsion) while out of water/dry.
> 
> --
> Jan Trybula, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor & Chair
> Department of Biology
> SUNY Potsdam
> 44 Pierrepont Avenue
> Potsdam, NY 13676
> 
> 315-267-2258
> trybulj AT potsdam.edu
> 
> On 3/21/17, 11:36 AM, "odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu on behalf of 
Christopher 

> Hill"  
wrote: 

> 
>    On several occasions I have heard larval Ophiogomphus making soft barking
> sounds.  I do not know the mechanism they use to produce the sounds, and I
> dont know if any other odonates make sounds.  When I have mentioned this to
> others, I have gotten blank stares (or the equivalent) in response.
> 
>    Larvae of Epiophlebia have been documented to make sounds, apparently by
> stridulating, and the source cited for that observation is Asahina 1939, 
which 

> I have not read.  But I find no other references to odonate larvae making
> noises - all recent reviews of sounds made by aquatic insects point back to
> Epiophlebia only among the Odonata.
> 
>    Has anyone else heard any odonate larvae making sounds?
> 
>    Chris Hill
>    Conway, SC
> 
>    _______________________________________________
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> Odonata-l Info Page - University of Puget Sound
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> ODONATA-L is an e-mail list about dragonfly biology sponsored by the 
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> 
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> ODONATA-L is an e-mail list about dragonfly biology sponsored by the 
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> Puget Sound, Tacoma, Washington. It is intended for both professionals and
> amateurs ...
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> 
> 
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Mark F. O'Brien, Collection Manager
> Insect Division, Museum of Zoology
> Research Museums Center
> The University of Michigan
> 3600 Varsity Drive
> Ann Arbor, MI 48108
> (734)-647-2199
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> See us on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/museumofzoology
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=l_kVoLMAAAAJ
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
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> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> _______________________________________________
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> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> 
> -----
> Dennis Paulson
> 1724 NE 98 St.
> Seattle, WA 98115
> 206-528-1382
> dennispaulson AT comcast.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> 
>  
> 
>  
> -----
> Dennis Paulson
> 1724 NE 98 St.
> Seattle, WA 98115
> 206-528-1382
> dennispaulson AT comcast.net
>  
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Mark F. O'Brien, Collection Manager
> Insect Division, Museum of Zoology
> Research Museums Center
> The University of Michigan
> 3600 Varsity Drive
> Ann Arbor, MI 48108
> (734)-647-2199
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> See us on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/museumofzoology
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=l_kVoLMAAAAJ

-----
Dennis Paulson
1724 NE 98 St.
Seattle, WA 98115
206-528-1382
dennispaulson AT comcast.net



_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Odonate larvae making sounds?
From: Kathy Biggs <bigsnest AT sonic.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 10:14:32 -0700
I've wondered about that. At our pond, year after year, they'll be a 
'favorite place' where Odes of one species will often select the same 
emergent site as others. Not all, ever, but a noticeable clump. 
Sometimes 2 darners will emerge 2 nites in a row on the same stalk. I've 
wondered about a chemical trail too!!

Here's a link to a photo taken 'in the wild' of a Clubtail exuviae pile: 
http://bigsnest.powweb.com/southwestdragonflies/caphotos/clubtail_exuviae.jpg

Kathy


On 3/24/2017 8:48 AM, Mark O'Brien wrote:
> Such emergence clumping -- could it be a chemical cue as well?
> Mark
>
> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 6:59 PM, Fincke, Ola M.  > wrote:
>
>     Ive done the same thing with /Macromia illinoiensis/. It sure
>     looked like emergence was clumped, as well as clumping in the lab,
>     not eating smaller conspecifics, etc. But then I started following
>     emerging adults in the field. Many times, it seemed as if the
>     congregation was due to independent assessments of emergence
>     sites. I still think they may follow each other when they head
>     off to the forest to emerge, and I think I mentioned that in the
>     lab, Ive had final instars congregate all in the same tub, even
>     though we started out with 5-6 final instar larvae each in its own
>     tub. This latter phenomenon was really surprising.really like
>     they were partying before the mass emergence. An even more
>     striking thing took place when we had ~ 30 final instars escape
>     on the same night, crawling out of their individual tubs and
>     apparently all going into the boat well at some point during the
>     night. My first reaction was that some pissed off student had
>     sabotaged our experiment that had been set up in a public space
>     in the boat well. But I finally ruled that out, after seeing them
>     congregate in the emergence cage (above incidence) from which they
>     couldnt crawl away, but they did all crawl into the same tub as
>     others. In that case, I did wonder whether the squeaking could
>     be used, but that would assume they had some way of detecting
>     airborn, not water-born vibrations. And that may be too much to
>     believe. Still, I remain fascinated, so any ref. besides Richards
>     which I got, would be greatly appreciated.
>
>     I also have data on /Hagenius brevistylus/ doing mass emergence
>     during the day. And I think that may definitely be an
>     anti-predator adaptation  they were all over the bank (they
>     too, will crawl into forests to emerge, but certainly not as
>     regularly or as far (and high up on trees) as the spidery-legged
>     Macromia. Both /Macromia/ and /Hagenius /get colonized by zebra
>     mussels, and not surprisingly, those carrying mussels emerge
>     closer to the beach, dont climb vertically as far, and have lower
>     emergence success. I need to write all this up in some monograph.
>
>     Ola
>
>     *From:*odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu
>     
>     [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu
>     ] *On Behalf Of *Dennis
>     Paulson
>     *Sent:* Thursday, March 23, 2017 8:46 AM
>     *To:* Odonata-l      >
>     *Cc:* trybulj AT potsdam.edu ; David
>     Fitch >; Rowe,
>     Richard      >; Mark O'Brien
>     >
>
>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
>
>     Sue, I could see this from an adaptive standpoint as overwhelming
>     potential predators, on a tiny scale like the mass cicada
>     emergences. Do you have any quantification of this clumping? It is
>     indeed an interesting phenomenon and should be looked for by
>     others monitoring emergence.
>
>     Dennis Paulson
>
>     Seattle
>
>     On Mar 23, 2017, at 5:25 AM, John and Sue Gregoire
>     > wrote:
>
>
>
>         For years we have been monitoring the mass emergence of
>         Celithemis elisa at our
>         pond. One of the most intriguing questions has concerned the
>         phemonenon we call
>         "clumping" wherein the majority of larvae emerging at the same
>         time seem to
>         "choose"
>         a particular plant on which to emerge even though there are
>         similar plants
>         nearby.
>         We have always wondered if they somehow communicate and agree
>         on the specific
>         location. This discussion sheds some light on the question.
>
>         Sue G.
>         -- 
>         John and Sue Gregoire
>         Field Ornithologists
>         Kestrel Haven Avian Migration Observatory
>         5373 Fitzgerald Road
>         Burdett,NY 14818-9626
>         N 42 26.611' W 76 45.492'
>         Website: http://www.empacc.net/~kestrelhaven/
> 
 

>         "Conserve and Create Habitat"
>
>         On Wed, March 22, 2017 18:46, Dennis Paulson wrote:
>
>             Richard, your work with the interactions of damselfly
>             larvae has shown some very
>             interesting and little-known phenomena among odonates, and
>             I wish other researchers
>             would pick it up as well. We need to know a lot more about
>             what our favorite insects
>             are doing for the majority of their lives!
>
>             Dennis
>
>             On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:46 PM, Rowe, Richard
>             >
>             wrote:
>
>
>                 underwater setae will act as very effective sound
>                 detectors as there will be
>                 displacement waves.
>
>                 To add (unpublished) I was able to get interacting
>                 Diphlebia larvae on a
>                 hydrophone I had borrowed and there were definite
>                 grating and click sounds
>                 associated with visual displays. I had to give the
>                 hydrophone back (and it was too
>                 big to really investigate damselfly larvae) but
>                 'sound' and vibration can be
>                 generated by seemingly unspecialised body parts (cf
>                 the stridulatory apparatus of
>                 Epiophlebia), and we would need to detect both
>                 pressure (sound) and displacement
>                 waves. The later could be done with laser
>                 interferometry (for which I have the
>                 plans, but couldn't excite interest from funders - it
>                 was too much for my pocket
>                 and too little for major granting bodies),
>
>                 Richard
>
>                 Dr Richard Rowe
>                 erstwhile associate in the Graduate Research School
>                 erstwhile adjunct in Zoology in
>                 College of Marine and Environmental Sciences
>                 James Cook University
>                 Townsville 4811
>                 AUSTRALIA
>
>                 JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J
>                 !!! my perpetual account at gmail.com
> 
 

>                  is richard.rowe.dragonflies !!!
>
>
>                 From: DAVID ALLAN FITCH                  >
>                 Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2017 2:13
>                 To: Chill AT coastal.edu ;
>                 fincke AT ou.edu 
>                 Cc: trybulj AT potsdam.edu ;
>                 mfobrien AT umich.edu ;
>                 odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>                 ; Rowe,
>                 Richard
>                 Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
>
>                 I am reminded of a time I collected 4 Macromia larvae
>                 of different instars on the
>                 Squanicook River, placed them all in a vial, and had
>                 only one (plus a few legs) in
>                 the vial when I got home a few hours later.
>
>                 How would one design an experiment to confirm use of
>                 stridulating, or other
>                 mechanical vibration, for signaling or synchronizing? 
>                 It opens vistas of social
>                 interaction among aquatics which I've always
>                 considered irrelevant to odonate
>                 adults as lacking "hearing" receptors.
>
>                 David Allan Fitch
>
>
>
>                 -----Original Message-----
>                 From: Christopher Hill                  >
>                 To: Fincke, Ola M. >
>                 Cc: Chill                  >; Jan Trybula
>                 >;
>                 Mark O'Brien
>                 >;
>                 odonata-l                  >; Rowe, Richard
>                 >
>                 Sent: Wed, Mar 22, 2017 11:53 am
>                 Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
>
>                 Thanks, everybody!
>
>                 Richard, I will track down your book and read up!
>
>                 Ola, Macromia, not Micromia, right?
>
>                 DAF and MO'B:  :-)
>
>                 Jan: that was my thought on the mechanism, too, but I
>                 hadnt watched closely
>                 enough to confirm it.
>
>                 Best,
>
>                 CH
>
>                 On Mar 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Fincke, Ola M.
>                 > wrote:
>
>                 YES!! Although I also simply attributed the noise to
>                 the jet propulsion mechanism
>                 out of water when I handled them,  I got very excited
>                 when it seemed  that my
>                 Micromia larvae were also doing it for communication.
>                 Indeed, I wanted to do some
>                 recordings of it as it seemed they were communicating
>                 and  might synchronize
>                 emergence via this mechanism. They actually got
>                 together in the same container,
>                 as if they were having a party. Most unusual behavior
>                 for larvae that potential
>                 can eat each other.
>                 Anyone want to collaborate?  At least its worth a
>                 note for starters.
>                 Ola
>
>                 Dr. Ola Fincke
>                 Ecology and Evolutionary Biology Graduate Program
>                 Dept. of Biology
>                 730 Van Vleet Oval, RIchards Hall 314,
>                 University of Oklahoma
>                 Norman, OK 73019-4105
>                 fincke AT ou.edu 
>                 Tel. (405)325-5514 
>                 FAX (405)325-6202 
>                 http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/F/Ola.M.Fincke-1/
>                 
>
>
>
>                 From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu
>                 
>                 [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu
>                 ] On Behalf
>                 Of Mark O'Brien
>                 Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:44 AM
>                 To: Rowe, Richard                  >
>                 Cc: Jan Trybula                  >;
>                 odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>                 
>                 Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
>
>                 Sounds like a name for a new rock band -- The
>                 Squeaking Ophios.
>                 :)
>
>                 On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 6:50 PM, Rowe, Richard
>                                  > wrote:
>                 Petaluridae ... Uropetala ... grating chirp ... Rowe
>                 1987 p136
>
>                 Dr Richard Rowe
>                 erstwhile associate in the Graduate Research School
>                 erstwhile adjunct in Zoology in
>                 College of Marine and Environmental Sciences
>                 James Cook University
>                 Townsville 4811
>                 AUSTRALIA
>
>                 JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J
>                 !!! my perpetual account at gmail.com
>                   is richard.rowe.dragonflies !!!
>
>                 From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu
>                 
>                                  > on
>                 behalf of Jan Trybula                  >
>                 Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:30
>                 To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>                 
>                 Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Odonate larvae making sounds?
>
>                 When raising Ophios a few years back I sometimes heard
>                 a soft creaking sound. Ive
>                 also noticed this when handling them and some other
>                 larval odes. Out of water I
>                 always associated it with an attempt to move via
>                 abdominal contraction (jet
>                 propulsion) while out of water/dry.
>
>                 --
>                 Jan Trybula, Ph.D.
>                 Associate Professor & Chair
>                 Department of Biology
>                 SUNY Potsdam
>                 44 Pierrepont Avenue
>                 Potsdam, NY 13676
>
>                 315-267-2258 
>                 trybulj AT potsdam.edu 
>
>                 On 3/21/17, 11:36 AM,
>                 "odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu on behalf of
>                 Christopher
>                 Hill
> 
" 

>                                  Chill AT coastal.edu
> 
> 

>                 wrote:
>
>                    On several occasions I have heard larval
>                 Ophiogomphus making soft barking
>                 sounds.  I do not know the mechanism they use to
>                 produce the sounds, and I
>                 dont know if any other odonates make sounds.  When I
>                 have mentioned this to
>                 others, I have gotten blank stares (or the equivalent)
>                 in response.
>
>                    Larvae of Epiophlebia have been documented to make
>                 sounds, apparently by
>                 stridulating, and the source cited for that
>                 observation is Asahina 1939, which
>                 I have not read.  But I find no other references to
>                 odonate larvae making
>                 noises - all recent reviews of sounds made by aquatic
>                 insects point back to
>                 Epiophlebia only among the Odonata.
>
>                    Has anyone else heard any odonate larvae making sounds?
>
>                    Chris Hill
>                    Conway, SC
>
>                    _______________________________________________
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>                 
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>
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>
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>                 ODONATA-L is an e-mail list about dragonfly biology
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>                 ------------------------------------------------------------
>                 Mark F. O'Brien, Collection Manager
>                 Insect Division, Museum of Zoology
>                 Research Museums Center
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>             -----
>             Dennis Paulson
>             1724 NE 98 St.
>             Seattle, WA 98115
>             206-528-1382 
>             dennispaulson AT comcast.net 
>
>
>
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>
>     -----
>
>     Dennis Paulson
>
>     1724 NE 98 St.
>
>     Seattle, WA 98115
>
>     206-528-1382 
>
>     dennispaulson AT comcast.net 
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Mark F. O'Brien, Collection Manager
>
> Insect Division, Museum of Zoology
>
> Research Museums Center
>
> The University of Michigan
>
> 3600 Varsity Drive
>
> Ann Arbor, MI 48108
>
> (734)-647-2199
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> See us on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/museumofzoology
>
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>
>
>
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Subject: Pseudolestes behaviour
From: Adolfo Cordero Rivera <adolfocordero AT mundo-r.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2017 17:35:08 +0100
Dear colleagues
I have uploaded to my Youtube channel several videos showing the
extraordinary behaviour of Pseudolestes mirabilis, the endemic damselfly of
Hainan, China.
It has not only highly elaborated fighting behaviour, but also intra-male
sperm translocation AFTER copulation... This will be discussed in detail in
a forthcoming paper.

Available here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcQuVgQ4a39XPbgsEcvSzSQ

This was one of the inspiring subjects for my paper on ethodiversity:
http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fevo.2017.00007/full

Regards


-- 
Adolfo Cordero Rivera
Grupo de Ecoloxía Evolutiva e da Conservación
Universidade de Vigo, EUET Forestal,
Campus Universitario A Xunqueira
36005 Pontevedra, Galiza, España / Spain
Tel. +34 986801926. Fax: +34986 801907
Móbil: +34 647343183_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Ronald Orenstein <ron.orenstein AT rogers.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2017 00:23:41 -0500
A question: in birds like hawks and owls, there is a positive correlation 
between increased body size and degree of sexual size dimorphism. Is the same 
thing true in odonates? In predatory birds it has been suggested that the 
increase in dimorphism with size is related to niche differentiation in prey 
size between the sexes 


Ronald Orenstein 
1825 Shady Creek Court
Mississauga, ON
Canada L5L 3W2
ronorenstein.blogspot.com

> On Feb 25, 2017, at 12:38 PM, Alejandro Cordoba Aguilar 
 wrote: 

> 
> Dear Colin, Dennis and Ola, 
> 
> Thanks for bringing about this interesting issue. Sexual size dimorphism was 
a topic we worked quite extensively a few years ago in my lab. Indeed there are 
taxa-specific patterns which coincide with mating system. Fit example, 
damselflies and in particular territorial damselflies exhibit male biased 
dimorphism. Cases where female appear larger are more likely explained by 
fecundity selection. These documents can be found at: 

> 
> 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51411261_Sexual_selection_sexual_size_dimorphism_and_Rensch%27s_rule_in_Odonata 

> 
> 
> 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259561494_Sexual_size_dimorphism_Patterns_and_processes?ev=prf_pub&_sg=zAqaHpizwTWcWD5U87yTulya7N_mOCKt19FQfqYpSCLeJ5NhoxE-Asy6QWeuUi00.2Pz8Ho_ArXBtOQGRRBhmAZ3k8maZyEIN9FACO-R5wvNPkI6uPSnBIbvh97BgFhZu 

> 
> 
> Furthermore, dimorphism can vary along the season and we are unaware of why 
this is so, presumably varying selection regimes acting on each sex: 

> 
> 
> 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225522214_Seasonal_changes_in_body_size_sexual_size_dimorphism_and_sex_ratio_in_relation_to_mating_system_in_an_adult_odonate_community?ev=prf_pub&_sg=hSXofqZPYUjDSAPDWguPS7xzZXEsaOluI1TG6pipCiWq796miErwwfLIcuabO9ce.gI--NFb2IiC4XlZHXLXI_t3oJ9oAdAanAkFRgTYBI-3vymzZj-jRjjA-eY6J2TGB 

> El feb. 25, 2017 9:54 AM, "Colin Adams"  escribi:
> Surely that is correct, but I am sure they did not mean anisoptera only. They 
speak about 5 dragonfly families. 

> 
> On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 at 15:49 Ronald Orenstein  
wrote: 

>> Well, the authors did say "dragonfly families" so they may have meant 
Anisoptera only; surely it is correct to say that libellulids generally perch 
more (at least during the day) than aeshnids do? 

>> 
>>  
>> Ronald Orenstein
>> 1825 Shady Creek Court
>> Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2
>> Canada
>> ronorenstein.blogspot.com
>> ronorensteinwriter.blogspot.com
>> 
>> 
>> From: Colin Adams 
>> To: Ronald Orenstein ; Dennis Paulson 
 

>> Cc: Odonata-l 
>> Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2017 10:44 AM
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
>> 
>> That was an interesting article, Ronald.
>> 
>> I was startled to see the following:
>> 
>> "Among all the dragonfly families investigated in this study, libellulids 
are the only species which appeared to be perchers". Since the families 
concerned are Coenagrionidae, Chlrocyphidae, Heterophlebidae, Aeshnidae and 
Libellulidae, this seems odd. Chlorocyphidae and especially Coenagrionidae are 
not perchers? This is referring to Corbet's 1962 Biology of Dragonflies. It's 
been several years since I read that, but I don't recall where that would come 
from. 

>> What interests me is the following:
>> "As already mentioned, Coenagrionid wings and the Libellulid hindwing are 
good examples of camber formation. In contrast, the deformation of the other 
models is a combination of mainly widening and, to a lesser degree, cambering." 
Could such observations be used to deduce the flight styles of fossil groups, 
such as Heterophlebidae in this study? Can we conclude it was a flyer? 
(Probably that would be too bold a conclusion from just that study) 

>> 
>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 at 04:58 Ronald Orenstein  
wrote: 

>> If you'll pardon a non-odonatologist butting in: Would wing musculature be 
the only criterion to look for? I recently read a paper (Rajabi, H., et al. 
(2016). "Basal Complex and Basal Venation of Odonata Wings: Structural 
Diversity and Potential Role in the Wing Deformation." PLoS One 11(8): 
e0160610) arguing that details of the wing structure, including venation, of 
odonatees serve particular functions in flight and vary among odonate groups. 
Have differences of this type been found between males and females? I would 
imagine that, say, the aerial contests of male chlorocyphids impose energy 
demands that females do not face, and that structural (and physiological?) 
differences between the sexes might reflect this. 

>> 
>> Ronald Orenstein
>> 1825 Shady Creek Court
>> Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2
>> Canada
>> ronorenstein.blogspot.com
>> ronorensteinwriter.blogspot.com
>> 
>> 
>> From: Dennis Paulson 
>> To: Colin Adams  
>> Cc: Odonata-l 
>> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 10:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
>> 
>> Colin, thats a good question. Ive read about fat reserves and attrition 
flights in Calopteryx, but I wonder if that has been studied in many species? 
Presumably males do fly around more than females when they are defending 
territories, but females have to feed, and I wonder in how many taxa the males 
have better-developed wing musculature. 

>> 
>> Dennis
>> 
>>> On Feb 24, 2017, at 9:01 AM, Colin Adams  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wouldn't males have greater mass on average then females (when not laden 
with eggs) due to more developed wing musculature and fat reserves? 

>>> 
>>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 16:57 Odo Natasaki  wrote:
>>> Dennis writes:
>>> 
>>> > Variation in wing loading is another interesting subject. How does a full
>>> > clutch affect the flying ability of a female dragonfly?
>>> 
>>> So what about the male essentially flying for both (the pair) during
>>> copulation? What about this when referring to "wing loading"? I recall
>>> seeing most male and female pairs with wings beating during tandem but not
>>> in cop. Are there observations in which species both contribute to wing
>>> beats vs. those that only have males? I've not looked closely at this
>>> before.
>>> 
>>> Gord Hutchings
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Odonata-l mailing list
>>> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>>> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Ronald Orenstein <ron.orenstein AT rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 15:49:46 +0000 (UTC)
Well, the authors did say "dragonfly families" so they may have meant 
Anisoptera only; surely it is correct to say that libellulids generally perch 
more (at least during the day) than aeshnids do? 

 Ronald Orenstein
1825 Shady Creek Court
Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2
Canada
ronorenstein.blogspot.com
ronorensteinwriter.blogspot.com

      From: Colin Adams 
 To: Ronald Orenstein ; Dennis Paulson 
 

Cc: Odonata-l 
 Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2017 10:44 AM
 Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
   
That was an interesting article, Ronald.
I was startled to see the following:
"Among all the dragonfly families investigated in this study, libellulids are 
the only species which appeared to be perchers". Since the families concerned 
are Coenagrionidae, Chlrocyphidae, Heterophlebidae, Aeshnidae and Libellulidae, 
this seems odd. Chlorocyphidae and especially Coenagrionidae are not perchers? 
This is referring to Corbet's 1962 Biology of Dragonflies. It's been several 
years since I read that, but I don't recall where that would come from.What 
interests me is the following:"As already mentioned, Coenagrionid wings and the 
Libellulid hindwing are good examples of camber formation. In contrast, the 
deformation of the other models is a combination of mainly widening and, to a 
lesser degree, cambering." Could such observations be used to deduce the flight 
styles of fossil groups, such as Heterophlebidae in this study? Can we conclude 
it was a flyer? (Probably that would be too bold a conclusion from just that 
study) 

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 at 04:58 Ronald Orenstein  wrote:

If you'll pardon a non-odonatologist butting in: Would wing musculature be the 
only criterion to look for?  I recently read a paper (Rajabi, H., et al. 
(2016). "Basal Complex and Basal Venation of Odonata Wings: Structural 
Diversity and Potential Role in the Wing Deformation." PLoS One 11(8): 
e0160610) arguing that details of the wing structure, including venation, of 
odonatees serve particular functions in flight and vary among odonate groups.  
Have differences of this type been found between males and females?  I would 
imagine that, say, the aerial contests of male chlorocyphids impose energy 
demands that females do not face, and that structural (and physiological?) 
differences between the sexes might reflect this. 

Ronald Orenstein
1825 Shady Creek Court
Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2
Canada
ronorenstein.blogspot.com
ronorensteinwriter.blogspot.com

      From: Dennis Paulson 
 To: Colin Adams  
Cc: Odonata-l 
 Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 10:11 PM
 Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
  
Colin, that’s a good question. I’ve read about fat reserves and attrition 
flights in Calopteryx, but I wonder if that has been studied in many species? 
Presumably males do fly around more than females when they are defending 
territories, but females have to feed, and I wonder in how many taxa the males 
have better-developed wing musculature. 

Dennis

On Feb 24, 2017, at 9:01 AM, Colin Adams  wrote:

Wouldn't males have greater mass on average then females (when not laden with 
eggs) due to more developed wing musculature and fat reserves? 

On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 16:57 Odo Natasaki  wrote:

Dennis writes:

> Variation in wing loading is another interesting subject. How does a full
> clutch affect the flying ability of a female dragonfly?

So what about the male essentially flying for both (the pair) during
copulation? What about this when referring to "wing loading"? I recall
seeing most male and female pairs with wings beating during tandem but not
in cop. Are there observations in which species both contribute to wing
beats vs. those that only have males? I've not looked closely at this
before.

Gord Hutchings

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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Colin Adams <colinpauladams AT gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 15:52:14 +0000
Surely that is correct, but I am sure they did not mean anisoptera only.
They speak about 5 dragonfly families.

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 at 15:49 Ronald Orenstein 
wrote:

> Well, the authors did say "dragonfly families" so they may have meant
> Anisoptera only; surely it is correct to say that libellulids generally
> perch more (at least during the day) than aeshnids do?
>
>
> Ronald Orenstein
> 1825 Shady Creek Court
> Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2
> Canada
> ronorenstein.blogspot.com
> ronorensteinwriter.blogspot.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Colin Adams 
> *To:* Ronald Orenstein ; Dennis Paulson <
> dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
> *Cc:* Odonata-l 
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 25, 2017 10:44 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Odonata-l] Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
>
> That was an interesting article, Ronald.
>
> I was startled to see the following:
>
> "Among all the dragonfly families investigated in this study, libellulids
> are the only species which appeared to be perchers". Since the families
> concerned are Coenagrionidae, Chlrocyphidae, Heterophlebidae, Aeshnidae and
> Libellulidae, this seems odd. Chlorocyphidae and especially Coenagrionidae
> are not perchers? This is referring to Corbet's 1962 Biology of
> Dragonflies. It's been several years since I read that, but I don't recall
> where that would come from.
> What interests me is the following:
> "As already mentioned, Coenagrionid wings and the Libellulid hindwing are
> good examples of camber formation. In contrast, the deformation of the
> other models is a combination of mainly widening and, to a lesser degree,
> cambering." Could such observations be used to deduce the flight styles
> of fossil groups, such as Heterophlebidae in this study? Can we conclude it
> was a flyer? (Probably that would be too bold a conclusion from just that
> study)
>
> On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 at 04:58 Ronald Orenstein 
> wrote:
>
> If you'll pardon a non-odonatologist butting in: Would wing musculature be
> the only criterion to look for?  I recently read a paper (Rajabi, H., et
> al. (2016). "Basal Complex and Basal Venation of Odonata Wings: Structural
> Diversity and Potential Role in the Wing Deformation." PLoS One 11(8):
> e0160610) arguing that details of the wing structure, including venation,
> of odonatees serve particular functions in flight and vary among odonate
> groups.  Have differences of this type been found between males and
> females?  I would imagine that, say, the aerial contests of male
> chlorocyphids impose energy demands that females do not face, and that
> structural (and physiological?) differences between the sexes might reflect
> this.
>
> Ronald Orenstein
> 1825 Shady Creek Court
> Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2
> Canada
> ronorenstein.blogspot.com
> ronorensteinwriter.blogspot.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Dennis Paulson 
> *To:* Colin Adams 
> *Cc:* Odonata-l 
> *Sent:* Friday, February 24, 2017 10:11 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Odonata-l] Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
>
> Colin, that’s a good question. I’ve read about fat reserves and attrition
> flights in Calopteryx, but I wonder if that has been studied in many
> species? Presumably males do fly around more than females when they are
> defending territories, but females have to feed, and I wonder in how many
> taxa the males have better-developed wing musculature.
>
> Dennis
>
> On Feb 24, 2017, at 9:01 AM, Colin Adams  wrote:
>
> Wouldn't males have greater mass on average then females (when not laden
> with eggs) due to more developed wing musculature and fat reserves?
>
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 16:57 Odo Natasaki  wrote:
>
> Dennis writes:
>
> > Variation in wing loading is another interesting subject. How does a full
> > clutch affect the flying ability of a female dragonfly?
>
> So what about the male essentially flying for both (the pair) during
> copulation? What about this when referring to "wing loading"? I recall
> seeing most male and female pairs with wings beating during tandem but not
> in cop. Are there observations in which species both contribute to wing
> beats vs. those that only have males? I've not looked closely at this
> before.
>
> Gord Hutchings
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
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>
>
>_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Colin Adams <colinpauladams AT gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 15:44:38 +0000
That was an interesting article, Ronald.

I was startled to see the following:

"Among all the dragonfly families investigated in this study, libellulids
are the only species which appeared to be perchers". Since the families
concerned are Coenagrionidae, Chlrocyphidae, Heterophlebidae, Aeshnidae and
Libellulidae, this seems odd. Chlorocyphidae and especially Coenagrionidae
are not perchers? This is referring to Corbet's 1962 Biology of
Dragonflies. It's been several years since I read that, but I don't recall
where that would come from.
What interests me is the following:
"As already mentioned, Coenagrionid wings and the Libellulid hindwing are
good examples of camber formation. In contrast, the deformation of the
other models is a combination of mainly widening and, to a lesser degree,
cambering." Could such observations be used to deduce the flight styles of
fossil groups, such as Heterophlebidae in this study? Can we conclude it
was a flyer? (Probably that would be too bold a conclusion from just that
study)

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 at 04:58 Ronald Orenstein 
wrote:

> If you'll pardon a non-odonatologist butting in: Would wing musculature be
> the only criterion to look for?  I recently read a paper (Rajabi, H., et
> al. (2016). "Basal Complex and Basal Venation of Odonata Wings: Structural
> Diversity and Potential Role in the Wing Deformation." PLoS One 11(8):
> e0160610) arguing that details of the wing structure, including venation,
> of odonatees serve particular functions in flight and vary among odonate
> groups.  Have differences of this type been found between males and
> females?  I would imagine that, say, the aerial contests of male
> chlorocyphids impose energy demands that females do not face, and that
> structural (and physiological?) differences between the sexes might reflect
> this.
>
> Ronald Orenstein
> 1825 Shady Creek Court
> Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2
> Canada
> ronorenstein.blogspot.com
> ronorensteinwriter.blogspot.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Dennis Paulson 
> *To:* Colin Adams 
> *Cc:* Odonata-l 
> *Sent:* Friday, February 24, 2017 10:11 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Odonata-l] Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
>
> Colin, that’s a good question. I’ve read about fat reserves and attrition
> flights in Calopteryx, but I wonder if that has been studied in many
> species? Presumably males do fly around more than females when they are
> defending territories, but females have to feed, and I wonder in how many
> taxa the males have better-developed wing musculature.
>
> Dennis
>
> On Feb 24, 2017, at 9:01 AM, Colin Adams  wrote:
>
> Wouldn't males have greater mass on average then females (when not laden
> with eggs) due to more developed wing musculature and fat reserves?
>
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 16:57 Odo Natasaki  wrote:
>
> Dennis writes:
>
> > Variation in wing loading is another interesting subject. How does a full
> > clutch affect the flying ability of a female dragonfly?
>
> So what about the male essentially flying for both (the pair) during
> copulation? What about this when referring to "wing loading"? I recall
> seeing most male and female pairs with wings beating during tandem but not
> in cop. Are there observations in which species both contribute to wing
> beats vs. those that only have males? I've not looked closely at this
> before.
>
> Gord Hutchings
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>
>
>
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>
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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Ronald Orenstein <ron.orenstein AT rogers.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 04:58:12 +0000 (UTC)
If you'll pardon a non-odonatologist butting in: Would wing musculature be the 
only criterion to look for?  I recently read a paper (Rajabi, H., et al. 
(2016). "Basal Complex and Basal Venation of Odonata Wings: Structural 
Diversity and Potential Role in the Wing Deformation." PLoS One 11(8): 
e0160610) arguing that details of the wing structure, including venation, of 
odonatees serve particular functions in flight and vary among odonate groups.  
Have differences of this type been found between males and females?  I would 
imagine that, say, the aerial contests of male chlorocyphids impose energy 
demands that females do not face, and that structural (and physiological?) 
differences between the sexes might reflect this. 

Ronald Orenstein
1825 Shady Creek Court
Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2
Canada
ronorenstein.blogspot.com
ronorensteinwriter.blogspot.com

      From: Dennis Paulson 
 To: Colin Adams  
Cc: Odonata-l 
 Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 10:11 PM
 Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
   
Colin, that’s a good question. I’ve read about fat reserves and attrition 
flights in Calopteryx, but I wonder if that has been studied in many species? 
Presumably males do fly around more than females when they are defending 
territories, but females have to feed, and I wonder in how many taxa the males 
have better-developed wing musculature. 

Dennis

On Feb 24, 2017, at 9:01 AM, Colin Adams  wrote:

Wouldn't males have greater mass on average then females (when not laden with 
eggs) due to more developed wing musculature and fat reserves? 

On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 16:57 Odo Natasaki  wrote:

Dennis writes:

> Variation in wing loading is another interesting subject. How does a full
> clutch affect the flying ability of a female dragonfly?

So what about the male essentially flying for both (the pair) during
copulation? What about this when referring to "wing loading"? I recall
seeing most male and female pairs with wings beating during tandem but not
in cop. Are there observations in which species both contribute to wing
beats vs. those that only have males? I've not looked closely at this
before.

Gord Hutchings

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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 19:11:26 -0800
Colin, thats a good question. Ive read about fat reserves and attrition 
flights in Calopteryx, but I wonder if that has been studied in many species? 
Presumably males do fly around more than females when they are defending 
territories, but females have to feed, and I wonder in how many taxa the males 
have better-developed wing musculature. 


Dennis

On Feb 24, 2017, at 9:01 AM, Colin Adams  wrote:

> Wouldn't males have greater mass on average then females (when not laden with 
eggs) due to more developed wing musculature and fat reserves? 

> 
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 16:57 Odo Natasaki  wrote:
> Dennis writes:
> 
> > Variation in wing loading is another interesting subject. How does a full
> > clutch affect the flying ability of a female dragonfly?
> 
> So what about the male essentially flying for both (the pair) during
> copulation? What about this when referring to "wing loading"? I recall
> seeing most male and female pairs with wings beating during tandem but not
> in cop. Are there observations in which species both contribute to wing
> beats vs. those that only have males? I've not looked closely at this
> before.
> 
> Gord Hutchings
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l

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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Colin Adams <colinpauladams AT gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 19:32:57 +0000
I just searched for the word odonata. It only occurs three times, once in
the references.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1420-9101.2008.01567.x/full

They also tried wing length, and it was much the same.
Anyway, read the paper.

On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 19:18 Dennis Paulson 
wrote:

> Colin, which paper is that? I couldn’t figure it out with a quick scrutiny
> of the references. And using length is clearly fallacious in a group
> (especially Anisoptera) in which males are longer but females heavier (at
> least that’s my opinion). I would have used wing length as a better measure
> of size, as I think it relates better to mass. But then there is total wing
> area . . . .
>
> Dennis
>
> On Feb 24, 2017, at 10:17 AM, Colin Adams 
> wrote:
>
> Anyway, the paper about Odonata that was referenced within the papar that
> Hal attached, was measuring adult body length, not mass.
>
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 17:01 Colin Adams  wrote:
>
> Wouldn't males have greater mass on average then females (when not laden
> with eggs) due to more developed wing musculature and fat reserves?
>
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 16:57 Odo Natasaki  wrote:
>
> Dennis writes:
>
> > Variation in wing loading is another interesting subject. How does a full
> > clutch affect the flying ability of a female dragonfly?
>
> So what about the male essentially flying for both (the pair) during
> copulation? What about this when referring to "wing loading"? I recall
> seeing most male and female pairs with wings beating during tandem but not
> in cop. Are there observations in which species both contribute to wing
> beats vs. those that only have males? I've not looked closely at this
> before.
>
> Gord Hutchings
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 11:18:24 -0800
Colin, which paper is that? I couldnt figure it out with a quick scrutiny of 
the references. And using length is clearly fallacious in a group (especially 
Anisoptera) in which males are longer but females heavier (at least thats my 
opinion). I would have used wing length as a better measure of size, as I think 
it relates better to mass. But then there is total wing area . . . . 


Dennis

On Feb 24, 2017, at 10:17 AM, Colin Adams  wrote:

> Anyway, the paper about Odonata that was referenced within the papar that Hal 
attached, was measuring adult body length, not mass. 

> 
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 17:01 Colin Adams  wrote:
> Wouldn't males have greater mass on average then females (when not laden with 
eggs) due to more developed wing musculature and fat reserves? 

> 
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 16:57 Odo Natasaki  wrote:
> Dennis writes:
> 
> > Variation in wing loading is another interesting subject. How does a full
> > clutch affect the flying ability of a female dragonfly?
> 
> So what about the male essentially flying for both (the pair) during
> copulation? What about this when referring to "wing loading"? I recall
> seeing most male and female pairs with wings beating during tandem but not
> in cop. Are there observations in which species both contribute to wing
> beats vs. those that only have males? I've not looked closely at this
> before.
> 
> Gord Hutchings
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l



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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Colin Adams <colinpauladams AT gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 18:17:31 +0000
Anyway, the paper about Odonata that was referenced within the papar that
Hal attached, was measuring adult body length, not mass.

On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 17:01 Colin Adams  wrote:

> Wouldn't males have greater mass on average then females (when not laden
> with eggs) due to more developed wing musculature and fat reserves?
>
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 16:57 Odo Natasaki  wrote:
>
> Dennis writes:
>
> > Variation in wing loading is another interesting subject. How does a full
> > clutch affect the flying ability of a female dragonfly?
>
> So what about the male essentially flying for both (the pair) during
> copulation? What about this when referring to "wing loading"? I recall
> seeing most male and female pairs with wings beating during tandem but not
> in cop. Are there observations in which species both contribute to wing
> beats vs. those that only have males? I've not looked closely at this
> before.
>
> Gord Hutchings
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Thomas Schultz <schultz AT denison.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 12:45:17 -0500
The topic of interest here is clearly the relative sizes of male and female
odonates.  But as for the original comment factoid about Odonata being the
only insect order with males larger than females....... there are also some
beetles in Lucanidae and Scarabeidae where the males are larger than the
females, for obvious reasons.

Tom


​


On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Colin Adams 
wrote:

> Wouldn't males have greater mass on average then females (when not laden
> with eggs) due to more developed wing musculature and fat reserves?
>
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 16:57 Odo Natasaki  wrote:
>
>> Dennis writes:
>>
>> > Variation in wing loading is another interesting subject. How does a
>> full
>> > clutch affect the flying ability of a female dragonfly?
>>
>> So what about the male essentially flying for both (the pair) during
>> copulation? What about this when referring to "wing loading"? I recall
>> seeing most male and female pairs with wings beating during tandem but not
>> in cop. Are there observations in which species both contribute to wing
>> beats vs. those that only have males? I've not looked closely at this
>> before.
>>
>> Gord Hutchings
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Odonata-l mailing list
>> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>


-- 
Tom D. Schultz. Ph.D.
Department of Biology
Denison University
Granville, OH 43023
schultz AT denison.edu
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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Colin Adams <colinpauladams AT gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 17:01:42 +0000
Wouldn't males have greater mass on average then females (when not laden
with eggs) due to more developed wing musculature and fat reserves?

On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 at 16:57 Odo Natasaki  wrote:

> Dennis writes:
>
> > Variation in wing loading is another interesting subject. How does a full
> > clutch affect the flying ability of a female dragonfly?
>
> So what about the male essentially flying for both (the pair) during
> copulation? What about this when referring to "wing loading"? I recall
> seeing most male and female pairs with wings beating during tandem but not
> in cop. Are there observations in which species both contribute to wing
> beats vs. those that only have males? I've not looked closely at this
> before.
>
> Gord Hutchings
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Odo Natasaki <odonatas AT uvic.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 08:56:19 -0800
Dennis writes:

> Variation in wing loading is another interesting subject. How does a full
> clutch affect the flying ability of a female dragonfly?

So what about the male essentially flying for both (the pair) during
copulation? What about this when referring to "wing loading"? I recall
seeing most male and female pairs with wings beating during tandem but not
in cop. Are there observations in which species both contribute to wing
beats vs. those that only have males? I've not looked closely at this
before.

Gord Hutchings

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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Ronald Orenstein <ron.orenstein AT rogers.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 16:30:35 +0000 (UTC)
Hi Hal;
In Tetracanthagyna plagiata the female is apparently much larger than the 
male.  The following is from 
http://lkcnhm.nus.edu.sg/dna/organisms/details/768: 

"This gigantic dragonfly was first described from Borneo It is the largest 
dragonfly in Southeast Asia and the female with a wing-span up to 165 mm could 
perhaps be ranked as the largest true dragonfly in the world, although an 
Australian species of the family Petaluridae has a longer body. The female is 
significantly larger and much more often seen than the male. In males, the 
hindwing is 67 to 75 mm long and the total body length ranges from 93 to 100 
mm." 

Regards
Ron Orenstein
 Ronald Orenstein
1825 Shady Creek Court
Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2
Canada
ronorenstein.blogspot.com
ronorensteinwriter.blogspot.com

      From: Hal White 
 To: Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu 
 Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 10:17 AM
 Subject: [Odonata-l] Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
   
 At a recent meeting of the American Entomological Society in Philadelphia, I 
learned from a friend that Odonates were the only insect order in which males 
were larger than females. For some reason, that was not a factoid I had come 
across. My response was that in my visual experience in the field, I didn't 
notice that as a consistent difference and that my impression was that females 
loaded with eggs would be larger (have a greater mass). I was sent a link to an 
2010 Annual Review article that provides data from 149 species to support the 
difference in size; males heavier 46%, females heavier 27%, no difference 27%. 
Of the other orders examined, the next closest order was Diptera with only 11% 
male being larger. 

 
 Is this characteristic of Odonata widely known?
 
 Hal White
 
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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Hal White <halwhite AT udel.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 11:06:06 -0500
Sorry about the bad link, attached is a pdf file. Hal


On 2/24/2017 10:45 AM, Fincke, Ola M. wrote:
>
> Very interesting note Hal! In my experience (i.e. mainly with 
> Coenagrionids but also some gomphids), female odonata are usually 
> larger than males in terms of wing, abdomen lengths. Makes sense 
> because it’s the females that are carrying eggs. Indeed, there seem to 
> be only a few in which males are larger than females in terms of total 
> SIZE (i.e. not mass). /Megaloprepus caerulatus/, one of my study 
> species, is a case in point. Males are territorial but don’t have lots 
> of incursions by other males, unlike say, male /Calopteryx/, so 
> maneuverability is not a premium for /Megaloprepus/.  The same goes 
> for mass for MC, though the data are limited.
>
> Dennis Paulson as you know, is soliciting data on odonate mass among 
> large species, so results should be very interesting. It would be 
> important to note whether or not the females measured are carrying 
> lots of eggs or not.
>
> Ola Fincke
>
> *From:*odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu 
> [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] *On Behalf Of *Hal White
> *Sent:* Friday, February 24, 2017 9:18 AM
> *To:* Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> *Subject:* [Odonata-l] Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
>
> At a recent meeting of the American Entomological Society in 
> Philadelphia, I learned from a friend that Odonates were the only 
> insect order in which males were larger than females. For some reason, 
> that was not a factoid I had come across. My response was that in my 
> visual experience in the field, I didn't notice that as a consistent 
> difference and that my impression was that females loaded with eggs 
> would be larger (have a greater mass). I was sent a link to an 2010 
> Annual Review article 
> 
 

> that provides data from 149 species to support the difference in size; 
> males heavier 46%, females heavier 27%, no difference 27%. Of the 
> other orders examined, the next closest order was Diptera with only 
> 11% male being larger.
>
> Is this characteristic of Odonata widely known?
>
> Hal White
>
_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: "Fincke, Ola M." <fincke AT ou.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 15:45:22 +0000
Very interesting note Hal! In my experience (i.e. mainly with Coenagrionids but 
also some gomphids), female odonata are usually larger than males in terms of 
wing, abdomen lengths. Makes sense because it’s the females that are carrying 
eggs. Indeed, there seem to be only a few in which males are larger than 
females in terms of total SIZE (i.e. not mass). Megaloprepus caerulatus, one of 
my study species, is a case in point. Males are territorial but don’t have 
lots of incursions by other males, unlike say, male Calopteryx, so 
maneuverability is not a premium for Megaloprepus. The same goes for mass for 
MC, though the data are limited. 

Dennis Paulson as you know, is soliciting data on odonate mass among large 
species, so results should be very interesting. It would be important to note 
whether or not the females measured are carrying lots of eggs or not. 

Ola Fincke

From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu 
[mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Hal White 

Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 9:18 AM
To: Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
Subject: [Odonata-l] Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates

At a recent meeting of the American Entomological Society in Philadelphia, I 
learned from a friend that Odonates were the only insect order in which males 
were larger than females. For some reason, that was not a factoid I had come 
across. My response was that in my visual experience in the field, I didn't 
notice that as a consistent difference and that my impression was that females 
loaded with eggs would be larger (have a greater mass). I was sent a link to an 
2010 Annual Review 
article 
that provides data from 149 species to support the difference in size; males 
heavier 46%, females heavier 27%, no difference 27%. Of the other orders 
examined, the next closest order was Diptera with only 11% male being larger. 


Is this characteristic of Odonata widely known?

Hal White
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Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
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Subject: Sexual size dimorphism in Odonates
From: Hal White <halwhite AT udel.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 10:17:54 -0500
At a recent meeting of the American Entomological Society in 
Philadelphia, I learned from a friend that Odonates were the only insect 
order in which males were larger than females. For some reason, that was 
not a factoid I had come across. My response was that in my visual 
experience in the field, I didn't notice that as a consistent difference 
and that my impression was that females loaded with eggs would be larger 
(have a greater mass). I was sent a link to an 2010 Annual Review 
article 

 

that provides data from 149 species to support the difference in size; 
males heavier 46%, females heavier 27%, no difference 27%. Of the other 
orders examined, the next closest order was Diptera with only 11% male 
being larger.

Is this characteristic of Odonata widely known?

Hal White_______________________________________________
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Subject: Ethological diversity
From: Adolfo Cordero Rivera <adolfocordero AT mundo-r.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 16:23:44 +0100
Dear colleagues
I have just published an essay about the concept of Ethodiversity, a paper
derived from the plenary lecture at the Odonatology Congress in La PLata,
2015, which I could not deliver due to dengue infection...
I have not included odonates as example in the main text, but the
Supplementary Information is a review of behavioural diversity in the
Odonata.
The paper is open access:
http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fevo.2017.00007/full

Regards,


-- 
Adolfo Cordero Rivera
Grupo de Ecoloxía Evolutiva e da Conservación
Universidade de Vigo, EUET Forestal,
Campus Universitario A Xunqueira
36005 Pontevedra, Galiza, España / Spain
Tel. +34 986801926. Fax: +34986 801907
Móbil: +34 647343183_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Odonata-l Digest, Vol 155, Issue 7 Temperature Data Logger
From: Robert Foster <rfoster AT tbaytel.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 12:58:32 -0500
Patricia,
I would also consider using HOBO pendant data loggers. Waterproof, easy to
use, and cost effective.  Note; you need the software and coupler to
download.
See http://www.onsetcomp.com/products/data-loggers/ua-001-08
We (and other fisheries professional) have used them extensively.

Cheers,
Rob

_________________________
Dr. Robert F. Foster
Northern Bioscience
363 Van Horne Street
Thunder Bay, Ontario
Canada   P7A 3G3
w (807) 346-4950
c (807) 621-9351
www.northernbioscience.com

-----Original Message-----
From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu
[mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of
odonata-l-request AT listhost.ups.edu
Sent: February-12-17 12:45 PM
To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
Subject: Odonata-l Digest, Vol 155, Issue 7

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Temperature data logger (Christopher Hill)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 17:43:49 +0000
From: Christopher Hill 
Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Temperature data logger
To: Patricia Martin Cabrera ,
	"odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu" 
Message-ID:
	

	
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Patricia,  iButtons are not waterproof, but you can buy waterproof cases for
them, and they're relatively cheap, even with the cases.  Made by Maxim, but
googling iButton should take you to a lot of suppliers and information
quickly.


Chris Hill

Conway, SC

________________________________
From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu
 on behalf of Patricia Martin Cabrera

Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 10:07:24 AM
To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
Subject: [Odonata-l] Temperature data logger


Hi all,


I am working on a project to monitor dragonflies larvae under controlled
conditions. I need to monitor the temperature (5 treatments)  to detect
variations during the day and the whole experiment. I am looking for a
temperature data logger, but the one I have found (
https://www.dicksondata.com/products/SM325 ) is quite expensive,
(considering  I need more than one).

Could anyone give me some advice on the best equipment to address this?


Thank you and king regards,


Patricia Martin Cabrera

Research Activities Coordinator

Wadi Wurrayah National Park

Emirates Wildlife Society - WWF

PO Box 454891 | Dubai | United Arab Emirates

t. +971.4.354.9776 ext 304 | f. +971.4.354.9774 | m. +971 50 575 1780







=================================





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Logger;Measures: Temperature



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End of Odonata-l Digest, Vol 155, Issue 7
*****************************************

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Subject: Re: dragonfly weights
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 08:11:27 -0800
Excellent, Fred. I may consider getting one of these myself. I should add that 
multiple weights of a species are of great value, as they vary surprisingly 
much. Perhaps a lot of the variation is due to how much and how recently they 
have eaten, but some odonates also deposit fat during migration, and all those 
variables should be considered, including sex and state of maturation. 


It would also be very good to see if we can generate formulas to relate dried 
specimen weight (acetoned or not) to live weight. These would not be perfect 
but would make specimen collections a potential source of species weights. I 
still want to find weights of what we usually consider the largest dragonflies, 
Petalura ingentissima and Tetracanthagyna plagiata. 


Dennis

On Feb 10, 2017, at 9:01 PM, Frederico A.A. Lencioni  
wrote: 


> Dear Denny and Dennis,
>  
> This one is a good scale with a good price and easy to carry in the field!! 

>     Hugs,
>  
>     Fred
>  
> 
> 
> 
> De: DENBROO AT aol.com
> Enviada: Sexta-feira, 10 de Fevereiro de 2017 21:41
> Para: dennispaulson AT comcast.net
> Assunto: [Odonata-l] dragonfly weights
> 
> Attached is an Ohaus scale that I have been using since 2009 for monarchs, I 
about $50 (american) at that time. This version is harder to find because it 
goes to 0.01 gm. 

>  
>  Here is a new Carolina Scale 
> 
> 100  0.01 g (item #702358). Powered by 2 AAA batteries (included).
> $12.95 + S&H
>  
>  
> The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: 
Field Scale 

>  
> Dear Dennis,
> I can ask some colleagues here in Brazil to weigh some Anisoptera and 
Zygoptera, but do you know of a precision scale with enough precision to weigh 
a Zygoptera? 

> I tried to buy both in specialized stores and in amazon and all that I found 
is precise to 1g !!! 

>    Let me know if you want and if you know a good scale?
>    Hugs,
>  
>    Fred Lencioni
>  
>  
> Denny Brooks
> Midland, Michigan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> 

-----
Dennis Paulson
1724 NE 98 St.
Seattle, WA 98115
206-528-1382
dennispaulson AT comcast.net



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Subject: Re: dragonfly weights
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 18:42:47 -0800
Thanks, Bruce. At $1525, thats probably a bit pricey for a biologist without a 
fat grant. Just searching a little, I see a 

TREE HRB 203 ECONOMY SCHOOL BALANCE for $300 that claims it reads to 1 
milligram, probably smaller than the smallest damselfly, and up to 200 grams, 
much larger than the largest dragonfly (which I think will weigh a few grams, 
about the weight of the smallest hummingbird). 


Dennis Paulson
Seattle, WA


On Feb 10, 2017, at 6:17 PM, Bruce Grimes  wrote:

> regarding precision weighing to finer increments:
> 
http://www.marshallscientific.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Me-AG245&gclid=CKvA89H7htICFZWCswodYs4JdQ 

> 
> I just Googled Mettler (which I sold in a previous lifetime), and found 
> this model.  2 ranges, one to .1 gram the other to .01 gm.  This latter 
> with +/- .02 repeatability. This ad is for a re-built one, so nice 
> savings...
> I am sure that there are many more options out there.
> Bruce Grimes
> 
> On 2/10/2017 5:30 PM, Frederico A.A. Lencioni wrote:
>> Dear Dennis,
>> 
>>   I can ask some colleagues here in Brazil to weigh some Anisoptera and
>> Zygoptera, but do you know of a precision scale with enought precision
>> to weigh a Zygoptera?
>>   I tried to buy both in specialized stores and in amazon and all that
>> I found is precise to 1g !!!
>>   Let me know if you want and if you know a good scale?
>>   Hugs,
>> 
>>   Fred Lencioni
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> *De:* dennispaulson AT comcast.net
>> *Enviada:* Sexta-feira, 3 de Fevereiro de 2017 18:28
>> *Para:* odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>> *Assunto:* [Odonata-l] dragonfly weights
>> 
>> Does anyone have weights on the largest dragonflies? Petalurids, large
>> aeshnids or gomphids? Im trying to figure out the heaviest odonate, but
>> there arent a lot of data. How about weights of the smallest species?
>> /Agriocnemis/or others?
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> Dennis
>> -----
>> Dennis Paulson
>> 1724 NE 98 St.
>> Seattle, WA 98115
>> 206-528-1382
>> dennispaulson AT comcast.net
>> <../../../undefined//compose?to=dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Odonata-l mailing list
>> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Odonata-l mailing list
>> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l

-----
Dennis Paulson
1724 NE 98 St.
Seattle, WA 98115
206-528-1382
dennispaulson AT comcast.net



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Subject: dragonfly weights
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 18:28:27 -0800
Does anyone have weights on the largest dragonflies? Petalurids, large aeshnids 
or gomphids? Im trying to figure out the heaviest odonate, but there arent a 
lot of data. How about weights of the smallest species? Agriocnemis or others? 


Thanks!
Dennis
-----
Dennis Paulson
1724 NE 98 St.
Seattle, WA 98115
206-528-1382
dennispaulson AT comcast.net



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Subject: Michigan Odonata Survey Larval Keys
From: "Mark O'Brien" <mfobrien AT umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2017 13:10:47 -0500
The Michigan Odonata Larvae keys have been offline for a little over a
year. I had planned on fixing the legacy html after we migrated to our new
server in late 2015, but there were too many things going on with the move
of the collections to our new space at varsity Drive.

I have now been able to fix those problems as well as update the
information. The maps are a work in progress, and I hope to have all of
them available asap.

To see the Larval keys: http://michodonata.org/MOL/HOME.HTM

In other news, we have migrated our collection records to SPECIFY, and I
have been pretty happy with the transition.  We added 50,000 North American
Odonata records in the past 18 months. At some point, those will be
uploaded to the IDigBio portal and will be available to all.

Mark

-- 

------------------------------------------------------------

Mark F. O'Brien, Collection Manager

Insect Division, Museum of Zoology

Research Museums Center

The University of Michigan

3600 Varsity Drive

Ann Arbor, MI 48108

(734)-647-2199

-------------------------------------------------------------

See us on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/museumofzoology

-------------------------------------------------------------

http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=l_kVoLMAAAAJ_______________________________________________
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Subject: colour change references
From: Adolfo Cordero Rivera <adolfocordero AT mundo-r.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 10:18:01 +0100
Dear colleagues
Does anybode have access to these old references about colour change in
odonates (from Australia)?


O’FARRELL A. F. (1963) Temperature-controlled physiological colour change
in some Australian damselflies (Odonata-Zygoptera). Aust. J. Sci. 25,
437-438.
​
O’FARRELL A. F. (1964) On physiological colour change in some Australian
Odonata. J. ent. Sot. Aust. 1, 5-12.

O’FARRRELL A. F. (1968) Physiological colour change and its significance in
the biology of some Australian Odonata. Proc. 13th int. Congr. Ent. 1, 534.

​The last one seems just an abstract, so may be not so relevant.

​I would appreciate any help!
Tahnks in advance.

Adolfo​


-- 
Adolfo Cordero Rivera
Grupo de Ecoloxía Evolutiva e da Conservación
Universidade de Vigo, EUET Forestal,
Campus Universitario A Xunqueira
36005 Pontevedra, Galiza, España / Spain
Tel. +34 986801926. Fax: +34986 801907
Móbil: +34 647343183_______________________________________________
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Subject: Ed Lam's book
From: George Sims <georgesims AT hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 15:31:37 +0000
Even though my damsel-hunting has been mostly confined to Missouri and Wyoming, 
Ed's book has proven to be one of my top go-to books over the past ten years, 
and I was delighted to meet him at the DSA SE meeting in Tennessee a few years 
ago. Not only is the book a wonderful ID guide, but Ed's artwork is nothing 
short of magnificent. Buy a boxful before they're all gone! 

George Sims
Lander, Wyoming

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 29, 2016, at 8:13 AM, "odonata-l-request AT listhost.ups.edu" 
 wrote: 

> 
> Send Odonata-l mailing list submissions to
>    odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Odonata-l digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Ed Lam's "Damselflies of the Northeast" only $10 a copy!
>      (Joshua Rose)
>   2. Updated IORI web site (Bill Mauffray)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 23:54:17 -0500
> From: Joshua Rose 
> Subject: [Odonata-l] Ed Lam's "Damselflies of the Northeast" only $10
>    a copy!
> To: Odonata-L , Southeast Odonata
>    , neodes , Tex
>    Odes    
> Message-ID: <2E005A97-16E4-47D3-8958-C6A1F880ED5E AT mindspring.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Howdy folks,
> 
> For those who have not already heard this news via FaceBook or elsewhere, 
BioDiversity Books - publisher of Ed Lam?s "Damselflies of the Northeast? - is 
planning to cease operations next March, and is looking to clear out their 
inventory. Toward this goal they have cut the price of Ed?s book to $10 a copy. 
This may or may not be the last chance to get a copy - Ed said in his FaceBook 
post ?hopefully the book will still be available in the future? - but almost 
certainly the cheapest. And we all remember how Sid Dunkle?s great Florida 
guides went out of print and were so hotly pursued for years afterwards?. So, 
anyone thinking of getting an extra copy, so one can get beaten up in the field 
while the other stays nice and crisp on the bookshelf; or buying one for your 
kids, a friend, your local nature center or library, etc?. now?s the time! 

> 
> Here?s the page of book info, including the ?Order Information? link: 
> http://edlam.net/book.html
> 
> JSR
> 
> 
> 
> Joshua S. Rose, Ph.D.
> Amherst, MA
> http://bugguide.net/user/view/2399
> http://www.facebook.com/opihi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 08:50:57 -0500
> From: "Bill Mauffray" 
> Subject: [Odonata-l] Updated IORI web site
> To: "Odonata-l discussion" 
> Message-ID: <002001d24a47$9d030540$d7090fc0$ AT com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Group:
> 
> 
> 
> The I.O.R.I. (International Odonata Research Institute) web site was
> established in 1994 and  maintained  since then. It was hosted by the
> Alachua Free net the first 5 years then moved to the bellsouth.net free web
> hosting. AT&T took over Bellsouth  and maintained free web hosting until
> about 2 years ago. When they discontinued web hosting, I switched it to the
> Google web hosting, which was a form of indirect web hosting that worked
> fine for the IORI web site. 
> 
> 
> 
> Within the last year Google discontinued their 'pseudo' web hosting so I
> moved it to my Dropbox account which was another 'pseudo' hosting service.
> Dropbox changed this a few months ago so that it was required to download
> the main (index) page in order to access the web site.  Now I am with
> another service that is working fine.
> 
> 
> 
> During the last few changes, the HTML rules have changed so that I had to
> rewrite all of the site to make it compatible with most web browsers.  
> 
> 
> 
> The site is running now at www.iodonata.net. It includes links to species
> list from around the world, list of social media sites, inventory of the
> FSCA collection,  a books and supplies link, and  a lot more.
> 
> 
> 
> Please check it out.
> 
> 
> 
> I have less than 50 copies remaining of the Dragonflies of North America 3rd
> edition.  As far as I know there are no other new copies available anywhere.
> The Amazon listing is mine also, but if you purchase through the IORI site,
> the cost is a lot lower since I do not have to pay Amazon. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Mauffray
> 
> International Odonata Research Institute
> 
> 4525 NW 53RD LN
> 
> Gainesville FL 32653
> 
> 352-219-3141 cell
> 
> iodonata AT gmail.com
> 
> http://www.iodonata.net  
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> End of Odonata-l Digest, Vol 152, Issue 8
> *****************************************

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Subject: Updated IORI web site
From: "Bill Mauffray" <iodonata AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 08:50:57 -0500
Group:

 

The I.O.R.I. (International Odonata Research Institute) web site was
established in 1994 and  maintained  since then. It was hosted by the
Alachua Free net the first 5 years then moved to the bellsouth.net free web
hosting. AT&T took over Bellsouth  and maintained free web hosting until
about 2 years ago. When they discontinued web hosting, I switched it to the
Google web hosting, which was a form of indirect web hosting that worked
fine for the IORI web site. 

 

Within the last year Google discontinued their 'pseudo' web hosting so I
moved it to my Dropbox account which was another 'pseudo' hosting service.
Dropbox changed this a few months ago so that it was required to download
the main (index) page in order to access the web site.  Now I am with
another service that is working fine.

 

During the last few changes, the HTML rules have changed so that I had to
rewrite all of the site to make it compatible with most web browsers.  

 

The site is running now at www.iodonata.net. It includes links to species
list from around the world, list of social media sites, inventory of the
FSCA collection,  a books and supplies link, and  a lot more.

 

Please check it out.

 

I have less than 50 copies remaining of the Dragonflies of North America 3rd
edition.  As far as I know there are no other new copies available anywhere.
The Amazon listing is mine also, but if you purchase through the IORI site,
the cost is a lot lower since I do not have to pay Amazon. 

 

 

Bill Mauffray

International Odonata Research Institute

4525 NW 53RD LN

Gainesville FL 32653

352-219-3141 cell

iodonata AT gmail.com

http://www.iodonata.net  

 
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Subject: Ed Lam's "Damselflies of the Northeast" only $10 a copy!
From: Joshua Rose <opihi AT mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 23:54:17 -0500
Howdy folks,

For those who have not already heard this news via FaceBook or elsewhere, 
BioDiversity Books - publisher of Ed Lam’s "Damselflies of the Northeast” - 
is planning to cease operations next March, and is looking to clear out their 
inventory. Toward this goal they have cut the price of Ed’s book to $10 a 
copy. This may or may not be the last chance to get a copy - Ed said in his 
FaceBook post “hopefully the book will still be available in the future” - 
but almost certainly the cheapest. And we all remember how Sid Dunkle’s great 
Florida guides went out of print and were so hotly pursued for years 
afterwards…. So, anyone thinking of getting an extra copy, so one can get 
beaten up in the field while the other stays nice and crisp on the bookshelf; 
or buying one for your kids, a friend, your local nature center or library, 
etc…. now’s the time! 


Here’s the page of book info, including the “Order Information” link: 
http://edlam.net/book.html

JSR



Joshua S. Rose, Ph.D.
Amherst, MA
http://bugguide.net/user/view/2399
http://www.facebook.com/opihi




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Subject: editorship of Odonata for Zootaxa
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 11:40:12 -0800
Hello, all.

I have been the Odonata editor for Zootaxa for over six years now, have 
received 178 manuscripts to date and have seen 146 to publication. Manuscripts 
are coming in at about twice the rate experienced by the previous editor, 
Rosser Garrison, who did a great job before turning it over to me in 2010. 


Odonatologists have had an exemplary record of publication in the journal, and 
in a summary for the year 2014, I was #13 in number of manuscripts published 
among 221 taxon editors. For a small order of insects, I think that is a sign 
that we are moving ahead very well to document odonate diversity. 


But I cannot take on this responsibility any longer. My life is full of other 
obligations, and Zootaxa is now taking up time that I cant afford. Im hoping 
that one or more of you will step up and offer to take this off my hands as 
quickly as possible. If not, I am going to have to give it up soon and ask the 
editors of Zootaxa to find someone. There are still 7 manuscripts in the works, 
which I will of course see through to publication. 


I think that three criteria are important for this job: (1) general knowledge 
of odonate taxonomy and morphology; (2) knowledge of which researchers are 
competent in which groups, both taxonomically and geographically; and (3) a 
good command of the English language, as all papers are published in that 
language. 


We need to keep this journal available to our researchers, so I am hoping for a 
positive response. Feel free to forward this message to people who arent on 
this listserv. 


Best wishes,

Dennis
-----
Dennis Paulson
1724 NE 98 St.
Seattle, WA 98115
206-528-1382
dennispaulson AT comcast.net



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Subject: Re: Id please
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 12:05:26 -0800
Looks like Macrothemis pseudimitans.


On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:26 AM, Alejandro Cordoba Aguilar 
 wrote: 


> Ups, Coatlan del Ro, Morelos,  Mxico.
> 
> Thanks! !!
> 
> 
> El nov. 13, 2016 11:09 PM, "Dennis Paulson"  
escribi: 

> Where from, please?
> 
> Dennis Paulson
> Seattle, WA
> 
> On Nov 13, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Alejandro Cordoba Aguilar 
 wrote: 

> 
>> Can anyone provide some help to identify this beauty? Thanks.
>> 
>> Alex
>> 
>> 
<20161112_124053.jpg><20161112_124221.jpg><20161112_124209.jpg>_______________________________________________ 

>> 
>> Odonata-l mailing list
>> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> 




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Subject: Re: Id please
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 11:09:18 -0800
Where from, please?

Dennis Paulson
Seattle, WA

On Nov 13, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Alejandro Cordoba Aguilar 
 wrote: 


> Can anyone provide some help to identify this beauty? Thanks.
> 
> Alex
> 
> 
<20161112_124053.jpg><20161112_124221.jpg><20161112_124209.jpg>_______________________________________________ 

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Subject: Id please
From: Alejandro Cordoba Aguilar <acordoba AT iecologia.unam.mx>
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 12:27:40 -0600
Can anyone provide some help to identify this beauty? Thanks.

Alex_______________________________________________
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Subject: Geographical variation in colour forms of Ischnura elegans?
From: Colin Adams <colinpauladams AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 08:11:01 +0000
I wonder if this has been noted / if there has been any research on the
subject? The reason I ask is that whilst I was staying in Beijing this July
(15-day holiday), I failed to see any females of form *rufescens *(C-type
immature in the terminology of Dijkstra and Lewington).

Also most of the males I saw were green or blue-green - very few were
really blue. At some of the sites it was sympatric with *Ischnura asiatica*,
whose males are apple, almost yellow, green. I don't know if this might be
significant or not._______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: frons
From: "Rowe, Richard" <richard.rowe AT jcu.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 01:13:16 +0000
in what context?


All insect heads have a frons ...


Dr Richard Rowe
one-time associate in the Graduate Research School
one-time adjunct in Zoology in
College of Marine and Environmental Sciences
James Cook University
Townsville 4811
AUSTRALIA

JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J
!!! my perpetual account at gmail.com  is richard.rowe.dragonflies !!!


________________________________
From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu  
on behalf of Kathy & Dave Biggs  

Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2016 11:07
To: Odonata List Server
Subject: [Odonata-l] frons


Someone at my program yesterday asked me the function of the frons.

Can't find answer in Corbett.... I'd love to be educated!!:-)

Kathy Biggs

California


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bigsnestpond.net
Using her own pond as an example, Kathy Biggs describes building a water garden 
to attract wildlife. Features photos of pond, dragonflies, birds, and fish, and 
lists ... 


Dragonflies of the Southwest (Odonata) - Biggs Wildlife 
Pond 

southwestdragonflies.net
-UPDATED - Spring 2013 -Dragonflies of California and the Greater Southwest A 
Beginner's Guide Use on your Kindle, Nook, Smartphone or computer - weightless! 




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Subject: Re: Journal request
From: William Hull <mangoverde AT gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2016 17:04:18 -0400
I had not yet received a copy.  Thank you!
Regards,
Bill



On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Smith Patten, Brenda D.  wrote:
> In case you have received a copy of the paper yet, it is attached.
>
>
> Brenda D. Smith-Patten
> Heritage Zoologist and Conservation Biologist
> Vertebrates, Odonata, Diptera: Asilidae, Coleoptera: Cicindelidae
>
> University of Oklahoma
> Oklahoma Biological Survey
> Oklahoma Natural Heritage Inventory
> phone: 405-325-7819
> www.biosurvey.ou.edu/
> www.oknaturalheritage.ou.edu/
> www.biosurvey.ou.edu/smith-patten/home.html
> argia AT ou.edu
> ________________________________
> From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu
>  on behalf of William Hull
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 10:58:14 AM
> To: Odonata List Server
> Subject: [Odonata-l] Journal request
>
> Hello, all.  I have been doing field work in under surveyed counties
> in northern Kentucky, USA, this year.
>
> In support of this effort, I have been tracking down the references
> that were used for Kentucky in the dot-map project.  Excluding
> unpublished personal notes, I have found all of them online.  I am
> still looking for:
>
> "Cook, Carl, 1967, New Records of Kentucky Odonata, Proc. N. Cent.
> Branch Ent. Soc. America, 22:120-121"
>
> I was wondering if anyone might have access to a copy that they could
> scan and send to me?  If not, I have found it in the archives at Iowa
> State University but there is a fee to have it scanned and sent.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Regards,
> Bill Hull
> Cincinnati, OH, USA
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
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Subject: Re: Journal request
From: "Smith Patten, Brenda D." <argia AT ou.edu>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2016 15:07:06 +0000
In case you have received a copy of the paper yet, it is attached.


Brenda D. Smith-Patten
Heritage Zoologist and Conservation Biologist
Vertebrates, Odonata, Diptera: Asilidae, Coleoptera: Cicindelidae

University of Oklahoma
Oklahoma Biological Survey
Oklahoma Natural Heritage Inventory
phone: 405-325-7819
www.biosurvey.ou.edu/
www.oknaturalheritage.ou.edu/

www.biosurvey.ou.edu/smith-patten/home.html 

argia AT ou.edu
________________________________
From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu  
on behalf of William Hull  

Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 10:58:14 AM
To: Odonata List Server
Subject: [Odonata-l] Journal request

Hello, all.  I have been doing field work in under surveyed counties
in northern Kentucky, USA, this year.

In support of this effort, I have been tracking down the references
that were used for Kentucky in the dot-map project.  Excluding
unpublished personal notes, I have found all of them online.  I am
still looking for:

"Cook, Carl, 1967, New Records of Kentucky Odonata, Proc. N. Cent.
Branch Ent. Soc. America, 22:120-121"

I was wondering if anyone might have access to a copy that they could
scan and send to me?  If not, I have found it in the archives at Iowa
State University but there is a fee to have it scanned and sent.

Thanks!

Regards,
Bill Hull
Cincinnati, OH, USA
_______________________________________________
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Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
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Subject: Journal request
From: William Hull <mangoverde AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 11:58:14 -0400
Hello, all.  I have been doing field work in under surveyed counties
in northern Kentucky, USA, this year.

In support of this effort, I have been tracking down the references
that were used for Kentucky in the dot-map project.  Excluding
unpublished personal notes, I have found all of them online.  I am
still looking for:

"Cook, Carl, 1967, New Records of Kentucky Odonata, Proc. N. Cent.
Branch Ent. Soc. America, 22:120-121"

I was wondering if anyone might have access to a copy that they could
scan and send to me?  If not, I have found it in the archives at Iowa
State University but there is a fee to have it scanned and sent.

Thanks!

Regards,
Bill Hull
Cincinnati, OH, USA
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Subject: Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs
From: Adolfo Cordero Rivera <adolfocordero AT mundo-r.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2016 21:07:30 +0200
We have published some guidelines to rear odonates, but mainly focused on
Zygoptera:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13887890.2015.1015179?src=recsys

If anyone needs a pdf, just let me know: acorderoriveragmail.com

regards

Adolfo Cordero

2016-09-20 23:12 GMT+02:00 Rowe, Richard :

> To add to Jushua's recipe I use harpactacoid copepods for small larvae
> (too small to take Daphnia) and hatching chironomid egg masses for
> Aeshnidae (which don't seem able to handle slippery crustaceans).
>
>
> Dr Richard Rowe
> one-time associate in the Graduate Research School
> one-time adjunct in Zoology in
> College of Marine and Environmental Sciences
> James Cook University
> Townsville 4811
> AUSTRALIA
>
> JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J
> !!! my perpetual account at gmail.com  is richard.rowe.dragonflies !!!
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu  ups.edu> on behalf of Joshua Rose 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 21, 2016 2:01
> *To:* Odonata-L
> *Subject:* Re: [Odonata-l] Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs
>
>
> > On 09/20/16 11:25 AM, Walter Sanford wrote:
> >> After reading Ken Tennessen's excellent article in the latest issue of
> Argia (SEP 2016), I don't think I'm ready for rearing odonates from eggs!
> At the suggestion of both John and Sue Gregoire and Stick LaPan, I plan to
> collect a few late-instar odonate larvae in the spring and rear them until
> they emerge.
> >>
> >> Which leads to my question. Can anyone provide specific guidance
> regarding the setups required to rear odonate larvae? Thanks!
>
> > On Sep 20, 2016, at 11:37 AM, Mark A. McPeek 
> wrote:
> >
> > It's very simple.  Put them individually in a plastic drinking cup, with
> a stick for a perch that they can crawl out on when ready to emerge and
> pond water, and feed them each day some stuff you catch in the littoral
> zone of a pond with a fine-meshed aquarium net.  It's almost impossible to
> not have them emerge.  If you keep them at 75-85F, they'll just do fine.
>
> An alternative food source for small ones, if your neighborhood littoral
> zone freezes over or dries up or whatever, is Daphnia magna. They are
> available from biological supply companies like Carolina, reproduce
> readily, and can be reared to abundance pretty easily in a fish tank. That
> should work fine until emergence for smaller species like coenagrionids.
> When other species get too big for the Daphnia, you can probably switch to
> earthworms, feeder guppies, etc.
>
> JSR
>
>
>
> Joshua S. Rose, Ph.D.
> Amherst, MA
> http://bugguide.net/user/view/2399
> Joshua Stuart Rose - BugGuide.Net 
> bugguide.net
> An online resource devoted to North American insects, spiders and their
> kin, offering identification, images, and information.
>
> http://www.facebook.com/opihi
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>


-- 
Adolfo Cordero Rivera
Grupo de Ecoloxía Evolutiva e da Conservación
Universidade de Vigo, EUET Forestal,
Campus Universitario A Xunqueira
36005 Pontevedra, Galiza, España / Spain
Tel. +34 986801926. Fax: +34986 801907
Móbil: +34 647343183_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs
From: "Rowe, Richard" <richard.rowe AT jcu.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 21:12:28 +0000
To add to Jushua's recipe I use harpactacoid copepods for small larvae (too 
small to take Daphnia) and hatching chironomid egg masses for Aeshnidae (which 
don't seem able to handle slippery crustaceans). 



Dr Richard Rowe
one-time associate in the Graduate Research School
one-time adjunct in Zoology in
College of Marine and Environmental Sciences
James Cook University
Townsville 4811
AUSTRALIA

JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J
!!! my perpetual account at gmail.com  is richard.rowe.dragonflies !!!


________________________________
From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu  
on behalf of Joshua Rose  

Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 2:01
To: Odonata-L
Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs


> On 09/20/16 11:25 AM, Walter Sanford wrote:
>> After reading Ken Tennessen's excellent article in the latest issue of Argia 
(SEP 2016), I don't think I'm ready for rearing odonates from eggs! At the 
suggestion of both John and Sue Gregoire and Stick LaPan, I plan to collect a 
few late-instar odonate larvae in the spring and rear them until they emerge. 

>>
>> Which leads to my question. Can anyone provide specific guidance regarding 
the setups required to rear odonate larvae? Thanks! 


> On Sep 20, 2016, at 11:37 AM, Mark A. McPeek  
wrote: 

>
> It's very simple. Put them individually in a plastic drinking cup, with a 
stick for a perch that they can crawl out on when ready to emerge and pond 
water, and feed them each day some stuff you catch in the littoral zone of a 
pond with a fine-meshed aquarium net. It's almost impossible to not have them 
emerge. If you keep them at 75-85F, they'll just do fine. 


An alternative food source for small ones, if your neighborhood littoral zone 
freezes over or dries up or whatever, is Daphnia magna. They are available from 
biological supply companies like Carolina, reproduce readily, and can be reared 
to abundance pretty easily in a fish tank. That should work fine until 
emergence for smaller species like coenagrionids. When other species get too 
big for the Daphnia, you can probably switch to earthworms, feeder guppies, 
etc. 


JSR



Joshua S. Rose, Ph.D.
Amherst, MA
http://bugguide.net/user/view/2399
Joshua Stuart Rose - BugGuide.Net
bugguide.net
An online resource devoted to North American insects, spiders and their kin, 
offering identification, images, and information. 



http://www.facebook.com/opihi




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Subject: Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs
From: spreadwing AT mac.com
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:57:21 -0400
I found several things online, I don’t know how helpful. Here’s one:

http://www.odesforbeginners.com/projects/raising_larvae/Default.aspx 
 




Marion Dobbs
Rome (Floyd Co.) GA
ecurlew AT mac.com
http://www.mamomi.net
http://www.mariondobbs.net
http://bugguide.net/bgimage/user/9511 
mmdragon.net




> On Sep 20, 2016, at 11:25 AM, Walter Sanford <4odonates AT gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> After reading Ken Tennessen's excellent article in the latest issue of Argia 
(SEP 2016), I don't think I'm ready for rearing odonates from eggs! At the 
suggestion of both John and Sue Gregoire and Stick LaPan, I plan to collect a 
few late-instar odonate larvae in the spring and rear them until they emerge. 

> 
> Which leads to my question. Can anyone provide specific guidance regarding 
the setups required to rear odonate larvae? Thanks! 

> 
> (For what it's worth, I searched all back issues of "Argia" looking for 
related info; no luck. And I've searched Google using every search string I can 
think of; again, no luck.) 

> 
> -- 
> Walter Sanford | 703-436-2772 | 4odonates AT gmail.com 
_______________________________________________ 

> Odonata-l mailing list
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Subject: Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs
From: "Mark A. McPeek" <mark.mcpeek AT dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 12:20:17 -0400
On 09/20/16 11:58 AM, Walter Sanford wrote:
> BTW, just a quick note to follow-up on our discussion of fishless 
> ponds last November. Qualitative observations suggest that numbers of 
> all species of odonates at a formerly fishless vernal pool are reduced 
> this year in contrast with two previous years. That's the bad news. 
> The good new: Some species of odonates from the degraded vernal pool 
> have migrated to another vernal pool in the same park, where the 
> weren't know to occur before this year!
>

Excellent Walter!  But the ecology of a vernal pond is a hard way to 
make a living. Some of you might find a blog post I wrote a few years 
ago about the ecology of vernal ponds interesting. 
http://enallagma.com/wordpress/2012/07/a-lesson-from-a-pond-dries/ 
Frequently, we try to keep nature the way we want it, but often the way 
we want it is not the best thing for nature.
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Subject: Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs
From: "Mark A. McPeek" <mark.mcpeek AT dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 12:16:41 -0400
On 09/20/16 11:58 AM, Walter Sanford wrote:
> Thanks for the quick reply, Mark. Sounds deceptively easy! ;-) But 
> seriously, the simple setups you described are perfect for the cramped 
> space in which I live.

Yep, a red solo cup (no beer though) on a table in a reasonably heated 
room with a stick and pond water in the cup will work fine.  I attach a 
picture of an experiment that Marjan DeBlock did in my lab some years 
ago raising Lestes from eggs to adults.  She fed them measured brine 
shrimp quantities because it was a physiology experiment and it was in a 
controlled temperature room, but all that was for science and not for 
raising them.
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Subject: Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs
From: ngelo P. Pinto <odonata_angelo AT hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 16:08:25 +0000
Hi Walter,
There are lots of papers describing techniques for rearing larvae, some them 
very complex for rearing running-water dwellers (see Odonatologica). 


I am attaching a short paper describing tips using cheap equipment, however it 
is in Portuguese. 

Best wishes,
ngelo



________________________________
From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu  
on behalf of odonata-l-request AT listhost.ups.edu 
 

Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 12:37 PM
To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
Subject: Odonata-l Digest, Vol 150, Issue 20

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Today's Topics:

   1. Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs (Walter Sanford)
   2. Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs (Mark A. McPeek)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:25:50 -0400
From: Walter Sanford <4odonates AT gmail.com>
Subject: [Odonata-l] Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs
To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
Message-ID:
        
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

After reading Ken Tennessen's excellent article in the latest issue of
Argia (SEP 2016), I don't think I'm ready for rearing odonates from eggs!
At the suggestion of both John and Sue Gregoire and Stick LaPan, I plan to
collect a few late-instar odonate larvae in the spring and rear them until
they emerge.

Which leads to my question. Can anyone provide specific guidance regarding
the setups required to rear odonate larvae? Thanks!

(For what it's worth, I searched all back issues of "Argia" looking for
related info; no luck. And I've searched Google using every search string I
can think of; again, no luck.)

--
Walter Sanford | 703-436-2772 | 4odonates AT gmail.com
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:37:27 -0400
From: "Mark A. McPeek" 
Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs
To: Walter Sanford <4odonates AT gmail.com>, 
Message-ID: <93a9e6c6-3e84-7379-470c-f38b5d9a66c2 AT dartmouth.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

On 09/20/16 11:25 AM, Walter Sanford wrote:
> After reading Ken Tennessen's excellent article in the latest issue of
> Argia (SEP 2016), I don't think I'm ready for rearing odonates from
> eggs! At the suggestion of both John and Sue Gregoire and Stick LaPan,
> I plan to collect a few late-instar odonate larvae in the spring and
> rear them until they emerge.
>
> Which leads to my question. Can anyone provide specific guidance
> regarding the setups required to rear odonate larvae? Thanks!



It's very simple.  Put them individually in a plastic drinking cup, with
a stick for a perch that they can crawl out on when ready to emerge and
pond water, and feed them each day some stuff you catch in the littoral
zone of a pond with a fine-meshed aquarium net.  It's almost impossible
to not have them emerge.  If you keep them at 75-85F, they'll just do fine.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
http://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/pipermail/odonata-l/attachments/20160920/d1ea64a5/attachment.html 


------------------------------

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End of Odonata-l Digest, Vol 150, Issue 20
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Subject: Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs
From: Joshua Rose <opihi AT mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 12:01:38 -0400
> On 09/20/16 11:25 AM, Walter Sanford wrote:
>> After reading Ken Tennessen's excellent article in the latest issue of Argia 
(SEP 2016), I don't think I'm ready for rearing odonates from eggs! At the 
suggestion of both John and Sue Gregoire and Stick LaPan, I plan to collect a 
few late-instar odonate larvae in the spring and rear them until they emerge. 

>> 
>> Which leads to my question. Can anyone provide specific guidance regarding 
the setups required to rear odonate larvae? Thanks! 


> On Sep 20, 2016, at 11:37 AM, Mark A. McPeek  
wrote: 

> 
> It's very simple. Put them individually in a plastic drinking cup, with a 
stick for a perch that they can crawl out on when ready to emerge and pond 
water, and feed them each day some stuff you catch in the littoral zone of a 
pond with a fine-meshed aquarium net. It's almost impossible to not have them 
emerge. If you keep them at 75-85F, they'll just do fine. 


An alternative food source for small ones, if your neighborhood littoral zone 
freezes over or dries up or whatever, is Daphnia magna. They are available from 
biological supply companies like Carolina, reproduce readily, and can be reared 
to abundance pretty easily in a fish tank. That should work fine until 
emergence for smaller species like coenagrionids. When other species get too 
big for the Daphnia, you can probably switch to earthworms, feeder guppies, 
etc. 


JSR



Joshua S. Rose, Ph.D.
Amherst, MA
http://bugguide.net/user/view/2399
http://www.facebook.com/opihi




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Subject: Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs
From: Walter Sanford <4odonates AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:58:28 -0400
Thanks for the quick reply, Mark. Sounds deceptively easy! ;-) But
seriously, the simple setups you described are perfect for the cramped
space in which I live.

BTW, just a quick note to follow-up on our discussion of fishless ponds
last November. Qualitative observations suggest that numbers of all species
of odonates at a formerly fishless vernal pool are reduced this year in
contrast with two previous years. That's the bad news. The good new: Some
species of odonates from the degraded vernal pool have migrated to another
vernal pool in the same park, where the weren't know to occur before this
year!

Walter

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Mark A. McPeek 
wrote:

> On 09/20/16 11:25 AM, Walter Sanford wrote:
>
> After reading Ken Tennessen's excellent article in the latest issue of
> Argia (SEP 2016), I don't think I'm ready for rearing odonates from eggs!
> At the suggestion of both John and Sue Gregoire and Stick LaPan, I plan to
> collect a few late-instar odonate larvae in the spring and rear them until
> they emerge.
>
> Which leads to my question. Can anyone provide specific guidance regarding
> the setups required to rear odonate larvae? Thanks!
>
>
>
> It's very simple.  Put them individually in a plastic drinking cup, with a
> stick for a perch that they can crawl out on when ready to emerge and pond
> water, and feed them each day some stuff you catch in the littoral zone of
> a pond with a fine-meshed aquarium net.  It's almost impossible to not have
> them emerge.  If you keep them at 75-85F, they'll just do fine.
>



-- 
Walter Sanford | 703-436-2772 | 4odonates AT gmail.com_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs
From: "Mark A. McPeek" <mark.mcpeek AT dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:37:27 -0400
On 09/20/16 11:25 AM, Walter Sanford wrote:
> After reading Ken Tennessen's excellent article in the latest issue of 
> Argia (SEP 2016), I don't think I'm ready for rearing odonates from 
> eggs! At the suggestion of both John and Sue Gregoire and Stick LaPan, 
> I plan to collect a few late-instar odonate larvae in the spring and 
> rear them until they emerge.
>
> Which leads to my question. Can anyone provide specific guidance 
> regarding the setups required to rear odonate larvae? Thanks!



It's very simple.  Put them individually in a plastic drinking cup, with 
a stick for a perch that they can crawl out on when ready to emerge and 
pond water, and feed them each day some stuff you catch in the littoral 
zone of a pond with a fine-meshed aquarium net.  It's almost impossible 
to not have them emerge.  If you keep them at 75-85F, they'll just do fine.
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Subject: Rearing late-instar odonate nymphs
From: Walter Sanford <4odonates AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:25:50 -0400
After reading Ken Tennessen's excellent article in the latest issue of
Argia (SEP 2016), I don't think I'm ready for rearing odonates from eggs!
At the suggestion of both John and Sue Gregoire and Stick LaPan, I plan to
collect a few late-instar odonate larvae in the spring and rear them until
they emerge.

Which leads to my question. Can anyone provide specific guidance regarding
the setups required to rear odonate larvae? Thanks!

(For what it's worth, I searched all back issues of "Argia" looking for
related info; no luck. And I've searched Google using every search string I
can think of; again, no luck.)

-- 
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Subject: Re: Zebra
From: Benoît Guillon <benoit.guillon AT meslibellules.fr>
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 17:48:38 +0200
Hi Johan,

It's an interessant possibilty to explain the localisation of the lack 
of pruinosity as they are strongly bended for sperm transfer or mating.

If any of you want the Martinia paper, just tell me.

Benoît.


Le 19/09/2016 à 13:25, johan van t Bosch a écrit :
> My theory was that they develop complete pruinosity, but that some 
> physical (large sudden fluctuation in temperature?) or chemical proces 
> (contact with a substance that reacts with the pruinosity) changes the 
> composition of the pruinosity, making it less flexible and more 
> susceptible to breaking. This would possibly clarify why the 
> pruinosity disappears (breaks) first along bending points like borders 
> of the segments.
> Could that be a possibility?
> Best wishes,
> Johan van 't Bosch
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Adolfo Cordero Rivera 
> *To:* johan van t Bosch 
> *Cc:* Odonata-l ; Dennis Paulson 
> ; Thomas Schultz ; 
> Dave McShaffrey 
> *Sent:* Monday, 19 September 2016, 13:02
> *Subject:* Re: [Odonata-l] Zebra
>
> These examples indicate that the zebra pattern in O. coerulescens is 
> not so rare. Something impedes pruinosity debelopment. But what?
>
> O 19 set, 2016 09:52, "johan van t Bosch"  > escribiu:
>
>     Over the years I have never seen this type of irregularity myself,
>     but I have seen some photos of it on the websites waarneming.nl
>      and observation.org
>     .
>     Here are the ones I found in a short search, but I think there
>     have been more:
>     http://waarneming.nl/waarneming/view/44013931 (zebra)
>     http://waarneming.nl/waarneming/view/78032724 (not a regular
>     pattern, but most pruinosity seems to have disappeared in a
>     similar way)
>     http://waarneming.nl/waarneming/view/56125991?_popup=1 (maybe the
>     start of such a pattern?)
>     http://observation.org/waarneming/view/40066330 ( zebra)
>     I don't know the cause.
>     Best wishes,
>     Johan van 't Bosch
>
>
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* Dave McShaffrey      >
>     *To:* 'Thomas Schultz'      >; 'Dennis Paulson'
>     >
>     *Cc:* 'Odonata-l'      >
>     *Sent:* Monday, 19 September 2016, 3:00
>     *Subject:* Re: [Odonata-l] Zebra
>
>     Interesting thread – I remember the specimen Dennis mentioned well
>     (and I thank Dennis for the ID as it had me baffled).  I looked
>     back at the series and found this shot of a more normal-looking
>     individual, though the tip of the abdomen seems to be melanistic
>     as well:
>     There were other, more normal specimens in the series as well. 
>     I’ll have to check tomorrow at school; I know I collected the
>     melanistic individual as I have posed pictures of it at my mom’s
>     house, but I’m not 100% sure I brought it back.  The specimen in
>     question was at the boat ramp to Lake Livingston  N27.681104°
>     W81.539596° Polk County FL, June 26, 2003.  I wasn’t shooting RAW
>     bag then so these are the jpegs pretty much right out of the
>     camera.  No Photoshop or black sharpies J
>     Dave
>     Dave McShaffrey
>     Department of Biology and Environmental Science
>     Marietta College
>     Marietta, OH 45750
>     mcshaffd AT marietta.edu 
>     www.marietta.edu/~mcshaffd 
>     www.marietta.edu/~biol 
>     740-376-4743
>     *From:*mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu
>     [mailto:mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] *On Behalf Of
>     *Thomas Schultz
>     *Sent:* Sunday, September 18, 2016 7:56 PM
>     *To:* Dennis Paulson      >
>     *Cc:* Odonata-l      >
>     *Subject:* Re: [Odonata-l] Zebra
>     Wow, you're right. That pondhawk is really black! And without the
>     pruinosity it should be green, no? That's a true melanic.
>     On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Dennis Paulson
>     > wrote:
>
>         Tom, I think you make good points, but I don’t see how you
>         could get the pattern on this dragonfly in any way with a felt
>         marker. Not with the symmetry and complexity of the markings
>         on some of the segments. The shiny black looks very much like
>         what you get when acetone removes pruinosity from a libellulid
>         abdomen, just as KD pointed out.
>         I will add these photos, of an /Erythemis simplicicollis/
>         photographed in Florida many years ago by Dave McShaffrey.
>         Same glossiness with lack of pruinosity. It amazed me at the
>         time, but I have never seen nor heard of another one like it,
>         and I’m quite confident Dave didn’t alter it.
>         Dennis
>         On Sep 18, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Thomas Schultz
>         > wrote:
>
>
>             With all due respect......
>
>             I looked at all the images of this species that I could
>             find online, and although there are many with
>             irregularities in the pruinosity, none had such a regular
>             striped pattern. Even if wax is absent from the dark bands
>             the black is much deeper than any melanic pigmentation of
>             a pruinose odonate that I have ever seen, and blacker than
>             the thorax of the /O. coerulescens/ in the photo from
>             http://www.british-dragonflies.org.uk/species/keeled-skimmer.
>             Moreover, the black on the base of the striped abdomen has
>             a surface sheen.  When trying to modify a color pattern
>             with a felt marker for behavioral studies, it is hard to
>             avoid such gloss.
>
>             
>             ​
>             On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Benoît Guillon
>              wrote:
>
>                 Excuse me Adolpho, but I don't believe there is some
>                 similarity between this two cases. There is no
>                 pruinsoty for Crocothemis.
>                 And when Orthetrum brunneum or coerulescens are young
>                 they are not black but yellow!
>                 To me this pattern for an immature Crocothemis
>                 erythraea is not really uncommon.
>
>                 Benoît.
>
>
>                 Le 18/09/2016 à 21:20, Adolfo Cordero Rivera a écrit :
>
>                     I would think of somewhat related to colour change
>                     during maturation, but certainly the specimen is
>                     very peculiar.
>                     I attach an example with Crocothemis erythraea,
>                     taken in Italy this august. I think it shows a
>                     male with intermediate colouration, but I wonder
>                     why this is so symmetric. And no photoshop here!!
>                     Regards
>                     Adolfo Cordero
>                     2016-09-18 19:55 GMT+02:00 Dennis Paulson
>                                          >:
>
>                         Hi, Benoit.
>                         I have surely observed tens of thousands of
>                         pruinose male libellulid dragonflies all over
>                         the world. Everywhere I have lived since I
>                         began to study dragonflies in 1960 has had
>                         many pruinose species, and I have never seen
>                         this. My eyes would be like saucers if I did.
>                         But then again there is Photoshop . . .
>                         Best wishes,
>                         Dennis
>                         On Sep 18, 2016, at 10:07 AM, Benoît Guillon
>                          wrote:
>
>                             Hi all,
>                             A friend of mine posted this Orthetrum on
>                             our French odonates forum.  Some
>                             characters are in favor of Orthetrum
>                             coerulescens, some of Orthetrum brunneum,
>                             but as you see it's not the main goal of
>                             my message. This zebra-like coloration has
>                             already been observed some times in this
>                             genus, but very rarely.
>                             There is a paper about some of these cases
>                             in Martinia, Tome 29, faciscule 1, juin
>                             2013, Pascal Dubois; Observation of an
>                             uncommon pattern in Orthetrum coerulescens
>                             (Fabricius, 1798).
>
>                             Klaas Douwe gave a very interessant hint
>                             saying that this type of lack of
>                             pruinosity is similar to those sometimes
>                             observed after pruinose individual were
>                             put in acetone and linking this with a
>                             possible alteration, during emergence, of
>                             cells producing this "wax" .
>                             So I would be happy to know if in the
>                             U.S.A, or elsewhere you have observed
>                             similar alterations, and if you have 
>                             other ideas about the origine of this
>                             zebra-like pattern.
>
>                             Benoît.
>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     Tom D. Schultz. Ph.D.
>     Department of Biology
>     Denison University
>     Granville, OH 43023
>     schultz AT denison.edu 
>     740-587-6218
>
>     ______________________________ _________________
>     Odonata-l mailing list
>     Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu 
>     https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>
>
>     ______________________________ _________________
>     Odonata-l mailing list
>     Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu 
>     https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l



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Subject: Re: Zebra
From: johan van t Bosch <johanvantbosch AT yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 11:25:26 +0000 (UTC)
My theory was that they develop complete pruinosity, but that some physical 
(large sudden fluctuation in temperature?) or chemical proces (contact with a 
substance that reacts with the pruinosity) changes the composition of the 
pruinosity, making it less flexible and more susceptible to breaking. This 
would possibly clarify why the pruinosity disappears (breaks) first 
along bending points like borders of the segments.Could that be a 
possibility?Best wishes,Johan van 't Bosch 


      From: Adolfo Cordero Rivera 
 To: johan van t Bosch  
Cc: Odonata-l ; Dennis Paulson 
; Thomas Schultz ; Dave 
McShaffrey  

 Sent: Monday, 19 September 2016, 13:02
 Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Zebra
   
These examples indicate that the zebra pattern in O. coerulescens is not so 
rare. Something impedes pruinosity debelopment. But what? 

O 19 set, 2016 09:52, "johan van t Bosch"  
escribiu: 


Over the years I have never seen this type of irregularity myself, but I have 
seen some photos of it on the websites waarneming.nl and observation.org. Here 
are the ones I found in a short search, but I think there have been 
more:http://waarneming.nl/waarneming/view/44013931  
(zebra)http://waarneming.nl/waarneming/view/78032724 (not a regular pattern, 
but most pruinosity seems to have disappeared in a similar 
way)http://waarneming.nl/waarneming/view/56125991?_popup=1 (maybe the start of 
such a pattern?)http://observation.org/waarneming/view/40066330 ( zebra)I 
don't know the cause.Best wishes,Johan van 't Bosch 





      From: Dave McShaffrey 
 To: 'Thomas Schultz' ; 'Dennis Paulson' 
 

Cc: 'Odonata-l' 
 Sent: Monday, 19 September 2016, 3:00
 Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Zebra
  
Interesting thread – I remember the specimen Dennis mentioned well (and I 
thank Dennis for the ID as it had me baffled).  I looked back at the series 
and found this shot of a more normal-looking individual, though the tip of the 
abdomen seems to be melanistic as well:    There were other, more normal 
specimens in the series as well.  I’ll have to check tomorrow at school; I 
know I collected the melanistic individual as I have posed pictures of it at my 
mom’s house, but I’m not 100% sure I brought it back.  The specimen in 
question was at the boat ramp to Lake Livingston  N27.681104° W81.539596° 
Polk County FL, June 26, 2003.  I wasn’t shooting RAW bag then so these are 
the jpegs pretty much right out of the camera.  No Photoshop or black sharpies 
J  Dave    Dave McShaffreyDepartment of Biology and Environmental 
ScienceMarietta CollegeMarietta, OH  
45750mcshaffd AT marietta.eduwww.marietta.edu/~mcshaffdwww.marietta.edu/~biol740-376-4743 
 From: mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu 
[mailto:mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Thomas Schultz 

Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 7:56 PM
To: Dennis Paulson 
Cc: Odonata-l 
Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Zebra  Wow, you're right. That pondhawk is really 
black! And without the pruinosity it should be green, no? That's a true 
melanic.  On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Dennis Paulson 
 wrote: 

Tom, I think you make good points, but I don’t see how you could get the 
pattern on this dragonfly in any way with a felt marker. Not with the symmetry 
and complexity of the markings on some of the segments. The shiny black looks 
very much like what you get when acetone removes pruinosity from a libellulid 
abdomen, just as KD pointed out.  I will add these photos, of an Erythemis 
simplicicollis photographed in Florida many years ago by Dave McShaffrey. Same 
glossiness with lack of pruinosity. It amazed me at the time, but I have never 
seen nor heard of another one like it, and I’m quite confident Dave didn’t 
alter it.  Dennis  On Sep 18, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Thomas Schultz 
 wrote: 



With all due respect......
I looked at all the images of this species that I could find online, and 
although there are many with irregularities in the pruinosity, none had such a 
regular striped pattern.   Even if wax is absent from the dark bands the 
black is much deeper than any melanic pigmentation of a pruinose odonate that I 
have ever seen, and blacker than the thorax of the O. coerulescens in the photo 
from http://www.british-dragonflies.org.uk/species/keeled-skimmer.  Moreover, 
the black on the base of the striped abdomen has a surface sheen.  When trying 
to modify a color pattern with a felt marker for behavioral studies, it is hard 
to avoid such gloss. 



​   On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Benoît Guillon 
 wrote: 

Excuse me Adolpho, but I don't believe there is some similarity between this 
two cases. There is no pruinsoty for Crocothemis. 

And when Orthetrum brunneum or coerulescens are young they are not black but 
yellow! 

To me this pattern for an immature Crocothemis erythraea is not really 
uncommon. 


Benoît.

Le 18/09/2016 à 21:20, Adolfo Cordero Rivera a écrit :
I would think of somewhat related to colour change during maturation, but 
certainly the specimen is very peculiar.I attach an example with Crocothemis 
erythraea, taken in Italy this august. I think it shows a male with 
intermediate colouration, but I wonder why this is so symmetric. And no 
photoshop here!!RegardsAdolfo Cordero  2016-09-18 19:55 GMT+02:00 Dennis 
Paulson : 

Hi, Benoit.  I have surely observed tens of thousands of pruinose male 
libellulid dragonflies all over the world. Everywhere I have lived since I 
began to study dragonflies in 1960 has had many pruinose species, and I have 
never seen this. My eyes would be like saucers if I did. But then again there 
is Photoshop . . .  Best wishes,  Dennis  On Sep 18, 2016, at 10:07 AM, 
Benoît Guillon  wrote:   

Hi all,A friend of mine posted this Orthetrum on our French odonates forum.  
Some characters are in favor of Orthetrum coerulescens, some of Orthetrum 
brunneum, but as you see it's not the main goal of my message. This zebra-like 
coloration has already been observed some times in this genus, but very rarely. 

There is a paper about some of these cases in Martinia, Tome 29, faciscule 1, 
juin 2013, Pascal Dubois; Observation of an uncommon pattern in Orthetrum 
coerulescens (Fabricius, 1798). 


Klaas Douwe gave a very interessant hint saying that this type of lack of 
pruinosity is similar to those sometimes observed after pruinose individual 
were put in acetone and linking this with a possible alteration, during 
emergence, of cells  producing this "wax" . 

So I would be happy to know if in the U.S.A, or elsewhere you have observed 
similar alterations, and if you have  other  ideas about the origine of this 
zebra-like pattern. 


Benoît.




    



-- Tom D. Schultz. Ph.D.Department of BiologyDenison UniversityGranville, OH 
43023schultz AT denison.edu740-587-6218 

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   _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Zebra
From: johan van t Bosch <johanvantbosch AT yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 07:52:18 +0000 (UTC)
Over the years I have never seen this type of irregularity myself, but I have 
seen some photos of it on the websites waarneming.nl and observation.org. Here 
are the ones I found in a short search, but I think there have been 
more:http://waarneming.nl/waarneming/view/44013931  
(zebra)http://waarneming.nl/waarneming/view/78032724 (not a regular pattern, 
but most pruinosity seems to have disappeared in a similar 
way)http://waarneming.nl/waarneming/view/56125991?_popup=1 (maybe the start of 
such a pattern?)http://observation.org/waarneming/view/40066330 (zebra)I don't 
know the cause.Best wishes,Johan van 't Bosch 





      From: Dave McShaffrey 
 To: 'Thomas Schultz' ; 'Dennis Paulson' 
 

Cc: 'Odonata-l' 
 Sent: Monday, 19 September 2016, 3:00
 Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Zebra
   
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Interesting thread – I remember the specimen Dennis mentioned well (and I 
thank Dennis for the ID as it had me baffled).  I looked back at the series 
and found this shot of a more normal-looking individual, though the tip of the 
abdomen seems to be melanistic as well:    There were other, more normal 
specimens in the series as well.  I’ll have to check tomorrow at school; I 
know I collected the melanistic individual as I have posed pictures of it at my 
mom’s house, but I’m not 100% sure I brought it back.  The specimen in 
question was at the boat ramp to Lake Livingston  N27.681104° W81.539596° 
Polk County FL, June 26, 2003.  I wasn’t shooting RAW bag then so these are 
the jpegs pretty much right out of the camera.  No Photoshop or black sharpies 
J  Dave    Dave McShaffreyDepartment of Biology and Environmental 
ScienceMarietta CollegeMarietta, OH  
45750mcshaffd AT marietta.eduwww.marietta.edu/~mcshaffdwww.marietta.edu/~biol740-376-4743 
 From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu 
[mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Thomas Schultz 

Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 7:56 PM
To: Dennis Paulson 
Cc: Odonata-l 
Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Zebra  Wow, you're right. That pondhawk is really 
black! And without the pruinosity it should be green, no? That's a true 
melanic.  On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Dennis Paulson 
 wrote: 

Tom, I think you make good points, but I don’t see how you could get the 
pattern on this dragonfly in any way with a felt marker. Not with the symmetry 
and complexity of the markings on some of the segments. The shiny black looks 
very much like what you get when acetone removes pruinosity from a libellulid 
abdomen, just as KD pointed out.  I will add these photos, of an Erythemis 
simplicicollis photographed in Florida many years ago by Dave McShaffrey. Same 
glossiness with lack of pruinosity. It amazed me at the time, but I have never 
seen nor heard of another one like it, and I’m quite confident Dave didn’t 
alter it.  Dennis  On Sep 18, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Thomas Schultz 
 wrote: 



With all due respect......
I looked at all the images of this species that I could find online, and 
although there are many with irregularities in the pruinosity, none had such a 
regular striped pattern.   Even if wax is absent from the dark bands the 
black is much deeper than any melanic pigmentation of a pruinose odonate that I 
have ever seen, and blacker than the thorax of the O. coerulescens in the photo 
from http://www.british-dragonflies.org.uk/species/keeled-skimmer.  Moreover, 
the black on the base of the striped abdomen has a surface sheen.  When trying 
to modify a color pattern with a felt marker for behavioral studies, it is hard 
to avoid such gloss. 



​   On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Benoît Guillon 
 wrote: 

Excuse me Adolpho, but I don't believe there is some similarity between this 
two cases. There is no pruinsoty for Crocothemis. 

And when Orthetrum brunneum or coerulescens are young they are not black but 
yellow! 

To me this pattern for an immature Crocothemis erythraea is not really 
uncommon. 


Benoît.

Le 18/09/2016 à 21:20, Adolfo Cordero Rivera a écrit :
I would think of somewhat related to colour change during maturation, but 
certainly the specimen is very peculiar.I attach an example with Crocothemis 
erythraea, taken in Italy this august. I think it shows a male with 
intermediate colouration, but I wonder why this is so symmetric. And no 
photoshop here!!RegardsAdolfo Cordero  2016-09-18 19:55 GMT+02:00 Dennis 
Paulson : 

Hi, Benoit.  I have surely observed tens of thousands of pruinose male 
libellulid dragonflies all over the world. Everywhere I have lived since I 
began to study dragonflies in 1960 has had many pruinose species, and I have 
never seen this. My eyes would be like saucers if I did. But then again there 
is Photoshop . . .  Best wishes,  Dennis  On Sep 18, 2016, at 10:07 AM, 
Benoît Guillon  wrote:   

Hi all,A friend of mine posted this Orthetrum on our French odonates forum.  
Some characters are in favor of Orthetrum coerulescens, some of Orthetrum 
brunneum, but as you see it's not the main goal of my message. This zebra-like 
coloration has already been observed some times in this genus, but very rarely. 

There is a paper about some of these cases in Martinia, Tome 29, faciscule 1, 
juin 2013, Pascal Dubois; Observation of an uncommon pattern in Orthetrum 
coerulescens (Fabricius, 1798). 


Klaas Douwe gave a very interessant hint saying that this type of lack of 
pruinosity is similar to those sometimes observed after pruinose individual 
were put in acetone and linking this with a possible alteration, during 
emergence, of cells  producing this "wax" . 

So I would be happy to know if in the U.S.A, or elsewhere you have observed 
similar alterations, and if you have  other  ideas about the origine of this 
zebra-like pattern. 


Benoît.




    



-- Tom D. Schultz. Ph.D.Department of BiologyDenison UniversityGranville, OH 
43023schultz AT denison.edu740-587-6218 

_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Zebra
From: "Dave McShaffrey" <mcshaffd AT marietta.edu>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 21:00:29 -0400
Interesting thread – I remember the specimen Dennis mentioned well (and I 
thank Dennis for the ID as it had me baffled). I looked back at the series and 
found this shot of a more normal-looking individual, though the tip of the 
abdomen seems to be melanistic as well: 


 



 

There were other, more normal specimens in the series as well. I’ll have to 
check tomorrow at school; I know I collected the melanistic individual as I 
have posed pictures of it at my mom’s house, but I’m not 100% sure I 
brought it back. The specimen in question was at the boat ramp to Lake 
Livingston N27.681104° W81.539596° Polk County FL, June 26, 2003. I wasn’t 
shooting RAW bag then so these are the jpegs pretty much right out of the 
camera. No Photoshop or black sharpies :) 


 

Dave

 

 

Dave McShaffrey

Department of Biology and Environmental Science

Marietta College

Marietta, OH  45750

  mcshaffd AT marietta.edu

  www.marietta.edu/~mcshaffd

  www.marietta.edu/~biol

740-376-4743

 

From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu 
[mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Thomas Schultz 

Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 7:56 PM
To: Dennis Paulson 
Cc: Odonata-l 
Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Zebra

 

Wow, you're right. That pondhawk is really black! And without the pruinosity it 
should be green, no? That's a true melanic. 


 

On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Dennis Paulson  > wrote: 


Tom, I think you make good points, but I don’t see how you could get the 
pattern on this dragonfly in any way with a felt marker. Not with the symmetry 
and complexity of the markings on some of the segments. The shiny black looks 
very much like what you get when acetone removes pruinosity from a libellulid 
abdomen, just as KD pointed out. 


 

I will add these photos, of an Erythemis simplicicollis photographed in Florida 
many years ago by Dave McShaffrey. Same glossiness with lack of pruinosity. It 
amazed me at the time, but I have never seen nor heard of another one like it, 
and I’m quite confident Dave didn’t alter it. 


 

Dennis

 

On Sep 18, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Thomas Schultz  > wrote: 






With all due respect......


I looked at all the images of this species that I could find online, and 
although there are many with irregularities in the pruinosity, none had such a 
regular striped pattern. Even if wax is absent from the dark bands the black is 
much deeper than any melanic pigmentation of a pruinose odonate that I have 
ever seen, and blacker than the thorax of the O. coerulescens in the photo from 
http://www.british-dragonflies.org.uk/species/keeled-skimmer. Moreover, the 
black on the base of the striped abdomen has a surface sheen. When trying to 
modify a color pattern with a felt marker for behavioral studies, it is hard to 
avoid such gloss. 



​ 

 

On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Benoît Guillon 
 > 
wrote: 


Excuse me Adolpho, but I don't believe there is some similarity between this 
two cases. There is no pruinsoty for Crocothemis. 

And when Orthetrum brunneum or coerulescens are young they are not black but 
yellow! 

To me this pattern for an immature Crocothemis erythraea is not really 
uncommon. 


Benoît.





Le 18/09/2016 à 21:20, Adolfo Cordero Rivera a écrit :

I would think of somewhat related to colour change during maturation, but 
certainly the specimen is very peculiar. 


I attach an example with Crocothemis erythraea, taken in Italy this august. I 
think it shows a male with intermediate colouration, but I wonder why this is 
so symmetric. And no photoshop here!! 


Regards

Adolfo Cordero

 

2016-09-18 19:55 GMT+02:00 Dennis Paulson  >: 


Hi, Benoit. 

 

I have surely observed tens of thousands of pruinose male libellulid 
dragonflies all over the world. Everywhere I have lived since I began to study 
dragonflies in 1960 has had many pruinose species, and I have never seen this. 
My eyes would be like saucers if I did. But then again there is Photoshop . . . 


 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

On Sep 18, 2016, at 10:07 AM, Benoît Guillon  > wrote: 


 

Hi all,

A friend of mine posted this Orthetrum on our French odonates forum. Some 
characters are in favor of Orthetrum coerulescens, some of Orthetrum brunneum, 
but as you see it's not the main goal of my message. This zebra-like coloration 
has already been observed some times in this genus, but very rarely. 

There is a paper about some of these cases in Martinia, Tome 29, faciscule 1, 
juin 2013, Pascal Dubois; Observation of an uncommon pattern in Orthetrum 
coerulescens (Fabricius, 1798). 


Klaas Douwe gave a very interessant hint saying that this type of lack of 
pruinosity is similar to those sometimes observed after pruinose individual 
were put in acetone and linking this with a possible alteration, during 
emergence, of cells producing this "wax" . 

So I would be happy to know if in the U.S.A, or elsewhere you have observed 
similar alterations, and if you have other ideas about the origine of this 
zebra-like pattern. 


Benoît.

 



 




-- 

Tom D. Schultz. Ph.D.

Department of Biology

Denison University

Granville, OH 43023

schultz AT denison.edu  

740-587-6218
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Subject: Re: Zebra
From: Thomas Schultz <schultz AT denison.edu>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 19:55:30 -0400
Wow, you're right. That pondhawk is really black! And without the
pruinosity it should be green, no? That's a true melanic.

On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Dennis Paulson 
wrote:

> Tom, I think you make good points, but I don’t see how you could get the
> pattern on this dragonfly in any way with a felt marker. Not with the
> symmetry and complexity of the markings on some of the segments. The shiny
> black looks very much like what you get when acetone removes pruinosity
> from a libellulid abdomen, just as KD pointed out.
>
> I will add these photos, of an *Erythemis simplicicollis* photographed in
> Florida many years ago by Dave McShaffrey. Same glossiness with lack of
> pruinosity. It amazed me at the time, but I have never seen nor heard of
> another one like it, and I’m quite confident Dave didn’t alter it.
>
> Dennis
>
> On Sep 18, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Thomas Schultz  wrote:
>
> With all due respect......
>
> I looked at all the images of this species that I could find online, and
> although there are many with irregularities in the pruinosity, none had
> such a regular striped pattern.   Even if wax is absent from the dark bands
> the black is much deeper than any melanic pigmentation of a pruinose
> odonate that I have ever seen, and blacker than the thorax of the *O.
> coerulescens* in the photo from http://www.british-
> dragonflies.org.uk/species/keeled-skimmer.  Moreover, the black on the
> base of the striped abdomen has a surface sheen.  When trying to modify a
> color pattern with a felt marker for behavioral studies, it is hard to
> avoid such gloss.
>
> 
> ​
>
> On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Benoît Guillon <
> benoit.guillon AT meslibellules.fr> wrote:
>
>> Excuse me Adolpho, but I don't believe there is some similarity between
>> this two cases. There is no pruinsoty for Crocothemis.
>> And when Orthetrum brunneum or coerulescens are young they are not black
>> but yellow!
>> To me this pattern for an immature Crocothemis erythraea is not really
>> uncommon.
>>
>> Benoît.
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 18/09/2016 à 21:20, Adolfo Cordero Rivera a écrit :
>>
>> I would think of somewhat related to colour change during maturation, but
>> certainly the specimen is very peculiar.
>> I attach an example with Crocothemis erythraea, taken in Italy this
>> august. I think it shows a male with intermediate colouration, but I wonder
>> why this is so symmetric. And no photoshop here!!
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Adolfo Cordero
>>
>> 2016-09-18 19:55 GMT+02:00 Dennis Paulson :
>>
>>> Hi, Benoit.
>>>
>>> I have surely observed tens of thousands of pruinose male libellulid
>>> dragonflies all over the world. Everywhere I have lived since I began to
>>> study dragonflies in 1960 has had many pruinose species, and I have never
>>> seen this. My eyes would be like saucers if I did. But then again there is
>>> Photoshop . . .
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>> On Sep 18, 2016, at 10:07 AM, Benoît Guillon <
>>> benoit.guillon AT meslibellules.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> A friend of mine posted this Orthetrum on our French odonates forum.
>>> Some characters are in favor of Orthetrum coerulescens, some of Orthetrum
>>> brunneum, but as you see it's not the main goal of my message. This
>>> zebra-like coloration has already been observed some times in this genus,
>>> but very rarely.
>>> There is a paper about some of these cases in Martinia, Tome 29,
>>> faciscule 1, juin 2013, Pascal Dubois; Observation of an uncommon pattern
>>> in Orthetrum coerulescens (Fabricius, 1798).
>>>
>>> Klaas Douwe gave a very interessant hint saying that this type of lack
>>> of pruinosity is similar to those sometimes observed after pruinose
>>> individual were put in acetone and linking this with a possible alteration,
>>> during emergence, of cells  producing this "wax" .
>>> So I would be happy to know if in the U.S.A, or elsewhere you have
>>> observed similar alterations, and if you have  other  ideas about the
>>> origine of this zebra-like pattern.
>>>
>>> Benoît.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Tom D. Schultz. Ph.D.
Department of Biology
Denison University
Granville, OH 43023
schultz AT denison.edu
740-587-6218_______________________________________________
Odonata-l mailing list
Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Zebra
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 14:03:40 -0700
Tom, I think you make good points, but I don’t see how you could get the 
pattern on this dragonfly in any way with a felt marker. Not with the symmetry 
and complexity of the markings on some of the segments. The shiny black looks 
very much like what you get when acetone removes pruinosity from a libellulid 
abdomen, just as KD pointed out. 


I will add these photos, of an Erythemis simplicicollis photographed in Florida 
many years ago by Dave McShaffrey. Same glossiness with lack of pruinosity. It 
amazed me at the time, but I have never seen nor heard of another one like it, 
and I’m quite confident Dave didn’t alter it. 


Dennis

On Sep 18, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Thomas Schultz  wrote:

> With all due respect......
> 
> I looked at all the images of this species that I could find online, and 
although there are many with irregularities in the pruinosity, none had such a 
regular striped pattern. Even if wax is absent from the dark bands the black is 
much deeper than any melanic pigmentation of a pruinose odonate that I have 
ever seen, and blacker than the thorax of the O. coerulescens in the photo from 
http://www.british-dragonflies.org.uk/species/keeled-skimmer. Moreover, the 
black on the base of the striped abdomen has a surface sheen. When trying to 
modify a color pattern with a felt marker for behavioral studies, it is hard to 
avoid such gloss. 

> 
> 
> ​ 
> 
> On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Benoît Guillon 
 wrote: 

> Excuse me Adolpho, but I don't believe there is some similarity between this 
two cases. There is no pruinsoty for Crocothemis. 

> And when Orthetrum brunneum or coerulescens are young they are not black but 
yellow! 

> To me this pattern for an immature Crocothemis erythraea is not really 
uncommon. 

> 
> Benoît.
> 
> 
> 
> Le 18/09/2016 à 21:20, Adolfo Cordero Rivera a écrit :
>> I would think of somewhat related to colour change during maturation, but 
certainly the specimen is very peculiar. 

>> I attach an example with Crocothemis erythraea, taken in Italy this august. 
I think it shows a male with intermediate colouration, but I wonder why this is 
so symmetric. And no photoshop here!! 

>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Adolfo Cordero
>> 
>> 2016-09-18 19:55 GMT+02:00 Dennis Paulson :
>> Hi, Benoit.
>> 
>> I have surely observed tens of thousands of pruinose male libellulid 
dragonflies all over the world. Everywhere I have lived since I began to study 
dragonflies in 1960 has had many pruinose species, and I have never seen this. 
My eyes would be like saucers if I did. But then again there is Photoshop . . . 

>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Dennis
>> 
>> On Sep 18, 2016, at 10:07 AM, Benoît Guillon 
 wrote: 

>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> A friend of mine posted this Orthetrum on our French odonates forum. Some 
characters are in favor of Orthetrum coerulescens, some of Orthetrum brunneum, 
but as you see it's not the main goal of my message. This zebra-like coloration 
has already been observed some times in this genus, but very rarely. 

>>> There is a paper about some of these cases in Martinia, Tome 29, faciscule 
1, juin 2013, Pascal Dubois; Observation of an uncommon pattern in Orthetrum 
coerulescens (Fabricius, 1798). 

>>> 
>>> Klaas Douwe gave a very interessant hint saying that this type of lack of 
pruinosity is similar to those sometimes observed after pruinose individual 
were put in acetone and linking this with a possible alteration, during 
emergence, of cells producing this "wax" . 

>>> So I would be happy to know if in the U.S.A, or elsewhere you have observed 
similar alterations, and if you have other ideas about the origine of this 
zebra-like pattern. 

>>> 
>>> Benoît.
>>> 
>>> 




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Subject: Re: Zebra
From: Thomas Schultz <schultz AT denison.edu>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 16:30:55 -0400
With all due respect......

I looked at all the images of this species that I could find online, and
although there are many with irregularities in the pruinosity, none had
such a regular striped pattern.   Even if wax is absent from the dark bands
the black is much deeper than any melanic pigmentation of a pruinose
odonate that I have ever seen, and blacker than the thorax of the *O.
coerulescens* in the photo from
http://www.british-dragonflies.org.uk/species/keeled-skimmer.  Moreover,
the black on the base of the striped abdomen has a surface sheen.  When
trying to modify a color pattern with a felt marker for behavioral studies,
it is hard to avoid such gloss.


​

On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Benoît Guillon <
benoit.guillon AT meslibellules.fr> wrote:

> Excuse me Adolpho, but I don't believe there is some similarity between
> this two cases. There is no pruinsoty for Crocothemis.
> And when Orthetrum brunneum or coerulescens are young they are not black
> but yellow!
> To me this pattern for an immature Crocothemis erythraea is not really
> uncommon.
>
> Benoît.
>
>
>
> Le 18/09/2016 à 21:20, Adolfo Cordero Rivera a écrit :
>
> I would think of somewhat related to colour change during maturation, but
> certainly the specimen is very peculiar.
> I attach an example with Crocothemis erythraea, taken in Italy this
> august. I think it shows a male with intermediate colouration, but I wonder
> why this is so symmetric. And no photoshop here!!
>
> Regards
>
> Adolfo Cordero
>
> 2016-09-18 19:55 GMT+02:00 Dennis Paulson :
>
>> Hi, Benoit.
>>
>> I have surely observed tens of thousands of pruinose male libellulid
>> dragonflies all over the world. Everywhere I have lived since I began to
>> study dragonflies in 1960 has had many pruinose species, and I have never
>> seen this. My eyes would be like saucers if I did. But then again there is
>> Photoshop . . .
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>> On Sep 18, 2016, at 10:07 AM, Benoît Guillon <
>> benoit.guillon AT meslibellules.fr> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> A friend of mine posted this Orthetrum on our French odonates forum.
>> Some characters are in favor of Orthetrum coerulescens, some of Orthetrum
>> brunneum, but as you see it's not the main goal of my message. This
>> zebra-like coloration has already been observed some times in this genus,
>> but very rarely.
>> There is a paper about some of these cases in Martinia, Tome 29,
>> faciscule 1, juin 2013, Pascal Dubois; Observation of an uncommon pattern
>> in Orthetrum coerulescens (Fabricius, 1798).
>>
>> Klaas Douwe gave a very interessant hint saying that this type of lack of
>> pruinosity is similar to those sometimes observed after pruinose individual
>> were put in acetone and linking this with a possible alteration, during
>> emergence, of cells  producing this "wax" .
>> So I would be happy to know if in the U.S.A, or elsewhere you have
>> observed similar alterations, and if you have  other  ideas about the
>> origine of this zebra-like pattern.
>>
>> Benoît.
>>
>>
>> meslibellules
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> [image: Avast logo] 
>>
>> L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le
>> logiciel antivirus Avast.
>> www.avast.com 
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Odonata-l mailing list
>> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>>
>>
>> -----
>> Dennis Paulson
>> 1724 NE 98 St.
>> Seattle, WA 98115
>> 206-528-1382
>> dennispaulson AT comcast.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Odonata-l mailing list
>> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
>> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Adolfo Cordero Rivera
> Grupo de Ecoloxía Evolutiva e da Conservación
> Universidade de Vigo, EUET Forestal,
> Campus Universitario A Xunqueira
> 36005 Pontevedra, Galiza, España / Spain
> Tel. +34 986801926. Fax: +34986 801907
> Móbil: +34 647343183
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> [image: Avast logo] 
>
> L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le
> logiciel antivirus Avast.
> www.avast.com 
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
>
>


-- 
Tom D. Schultz. Ph.D.
Department of Biology
Denison University
Granville, OH 43023
schultz AT denison.edu
740-587-6218_______________________________________________
Odonata-l mailing list
Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
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Subject: Re: Zebra
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 13:26:01 -0700
Mike, I see it as occupying the ends of each segment, not the upper half, in 
other words associated with the joint between the segments. I have a feeling 
thats significant. I could see some problem in embryonic development, although 
Im not sure how it would be linked to emergence, that would alter where the 
pruinosity is deposited segment by segment. It is absent from the entirety of 
S1-2 and S9-10 and decreases on S3 and S8. This pattern should be indicative of 
something, but I dont know what. 


Of course we might ask whether this individual was normally pruinose and then 
had it wear off differentially. That doesnt seem very likely to me, and the 
pruinosity on the thorax is intact (or perhaps a bit missing). 


And sorry, I didnt mean to imply that this one was faked with Photoshop, just 
that any of us could make delightfully artistic dragonflies with that method! 


Dennis

On Sep 18, 2016, at 1:05 PM, Mike Averill  
wrote: 


> What an interesting photo!
> I notice that the missing pruinosity is always at the upper half of a 
segment, do you think that it has anything to do with the segments not 
expanding fully at the correct time. 

>  
> Mike Averill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Benot Guillon
> To: Odonata-list
> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 6:07 PM
> Subject: [Odonata-l] Zebra
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> A friend of mine posted this Orthetrum on our French odonates forum. Some 
characters are in favor of Orthetrum coerulescens, some of Orthetrum brunneum, 
but as you see it's not the main goal of my message. This zebra-like coloration 
has already been observed some times in this genus, but very rarely. 

> There is a paper about some of these cases in Martinia, Tome 29, faciscule 1, 
juin 2013, Pascal Dubois; Observation of an uncommon pattern in Orthetrum 
coerulescens (Fabricius, 1798). 

> 
> Klaas Douwe gave a very interessant hint saying that this type of lack of 
pruinosity is similar to those sometimes observed after pruinose individual 
were put in acetone and linking this with a possible alteration, during 
emergence, of cells producing this "wax" . 

> So I would be happy to know if in the U.S.A, or elsewhere you have observed 
similar alterations, and if you have other ideas about the origine of this 
zebra-like pattern. 

> 
> Benot.
> 
> 
> meslibellules
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> L'absence de virus dans ce courrier lectronique a t vrifie par le 
logiciel antivirus Avast. 

> www.avast.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
> _______________________________________________
> Odonata-l mailing list
> Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu
> https://mailweb.pugetsound.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l

-----
Dennis Paulson
1724 NE 98 St.
Seattle, WA 98115
206-528-1382
dennispaulson AT comcast.net



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Subject: Re: Zebra
From: Mike Averill <mike.averill AT blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 21:05:32 +0100
What an interesting photo!
I notice that the missing pruinosity is always at the upper half of a segment, 
do you think that it has anything to do with the segments not expanding fully 
at the correct time. 


Mike Averill
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Benoît Guillon 
  To: Odonata-list 
  Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 6:07 PM
  Subject: [Odonata-l] Zebra


  Hi all,

 A friend of mine posted this Orthetrum on our French odonates forum. Some 
characters are in favor of Orthetrum coerulescens, some of Orthetrum brunneum, 
but as you see it's not the main goal of my message. This zebra-like coloration 
has already been observed some times in this genus, but very rarely. 

 There is a paper about some of these cases in Martinia, Tome 29, faciscule 1, 
juin 2013, Pascal Dubois; Observation of an uncommon pattern in Orthetrum 
coerulescens (Fabricius, 1798). 


 Klaas Douwe gave a very interessant hint saying that this type of lack of 
pruinosity is similar to those sometimes observed after pruinose individual 
were put in acetone and linking this with a possible alteration, during 
emergence, of cells producing this "wax" . 

 So I would be happy to know if in the U.S.A, or elsewhere you have observed 
similar alterations, and if you have other ideas about the origine of this 
zebra-like pattern. 


  Benoît.


  meslibellules







------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject: Re: Zebra
From: Adolfo Cordero Rivera <adolfocordero AT mundo-r.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 22:00:23 +0200
The similarity is in the geometric pattern. Of course a mature Orthetrum is
black and becomes pruinose. In this specimen is pruinosity what lacks. But
we do not have an explanation.

O 18 set, 2016 21:41, "Benoît Guillon" 
escribiu:

> Excuse me Adolpho, but I don't believe there is some similarity between
> this two cases. There is no pruinsoty for Crocothemis.
> And when Orthetrum brunneum or coerulescens are young they are not black
> but yellow!
> To me this pattern for an immature Crocothemis erythraea is not really
> uncommon.
>
> Benoît.
>
>
> Le 18/09/2016 à 21:20, Adolfo Cordero Rivera a écrit :
>
> I would think of somewhat related to colour change during maturation, but
> certainly the specimen is very peculiar.
> I attach an example with Crocothemis erythraea, taken in Italy this
> august. I think it shows a male with intermediate colouration, but I wonder
> why this is so symmetric. And no photoshop here!!
>
> Regards
>
> Adolfo Cordero
>
> 2016-09-18 19:55 GMT+02:00 Dennis Paulson :
>
>> Hi, Benoit.
>>
>> I have surely observed tens of thousands of pruinose male libellulid
>> dragonflies all over the world. Everywhere I have lived since I began to
>> study dragonflies in 1960 has had many pruinose species, and I have never
>> seen this. My eyes would be like saucers if I did. But then again there is
>> Photoshop . . .
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>> On Sep 18, 2016, at 10:07 AM, Benoît Guillon <
>> benoit.guillon AT meslibellules.fr> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> A friend of mine posted this Orthetrum on our French odonates forum.
>> Some characters are in favor of Orthetrum coerulescens, some of Orthetrum
>> brunneum, but as you see it's not the main goal of my message. This
>> zebra-like coloration has already been observed some times in this genus,
>> but very rarely.
>> There is a paper about some of these cases in Martinia, Tome 29,
>> faciscule 1, juin 2013, Pascal Dubois; Observation of an uncommon pattern
>> in Orthetrum coerulescens (Fabricius, 1798).
>>
>> Klaas Douwe gave a very interessant hint saying that this type of lack of
>> pruinosity is similar to those sometimes observed after pruinose individual
>> were put in acetone and linking this with a possible alteration, during
>> emergence, of cells  producing this "wax" .
>> So I would be happy to know if in the U.S.A, or elsewhere you have
>> observed similar alterations, and if you have  other  ideas about the
>> origine of this zebra-like pattern.
>>
>> Benoît.
>>
>>
>> meslibellules
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> -----
>> Dennis Paulson
>> 1724 NE 98 St.
>> Seattle, WA 98115
>> 206-528-1382
>> dennispaulson AT comcast.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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> Adolfo Cordero Rivera
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