Oriental Birding

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Recent Postings from
Oriental Birding

Updated on Monday, June 17 at 12:58 AM EST
The most recently received Mail is at the top.

16 Jun JOB, Regional Director TRAFFIC -SE Asia ["Colin T" ]
15 Jun Accommodation Fraser's Hill & Taman Negara [Remco Hofland ]
13 Jun Panti forest in late July [Petter Zahl Marki ]
12 Jun URGENT ACTION safeguard the national parks and nature reserves of Australia ["Brouwer EAC" ]
08 Jun Re: Ethics in Bird Photography ["Sylvia" ]
6 Jun Re: Re: Ethics in Bird Photography [Andy Adcock ]
06 Jun Re: Re: Ethics in Bird Photography [Backlund Tom ]
5 Jun Re: Ethics in Bird Photography [Andy Adcock ]
05 Jun Ethics in Bird Photography [Philip Round ]
5 Jun Re: Ethics in Bird-Photography [Glenda Larke ]
05 Jun Re: Ethics in Bird-Photography [Backlund Tom ]
5 Jun Re: Eastward expansion of Asian Openbills [Michael Rank ]
05 Jun Re: Ethics in Bird-Photography ["boyceangler" ]
04 Jun Ethics in Bird-Photography ["Tom Tarrant" ]
5 Jun $BJV(B: Eastward expansion of Asian Openbills [Simba Chan ]
5 Jun $BJV(B: Eastward expansion of Asian Openbills [Simba Chan ]
4 Jun Eastward expansion of Asian Openbills [Simba Chan ]
2 Jun June issue of eBON [Sylvia Ramos ]
2 Jun RE: Paper: Philippine, Wallacea, genetics, biogeog, insular Aethopyga sunbirds ["Richard Klim" ]
02 Jun Paper: Philippine, Wallacea, genetics, biogeog, insular Aethopyga sunbirds ["Colin T" ]
29 May Re: Hiring Indonesians for online bird ID [darrask ]
28 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names [Hans Peeters ]
29 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names [Hiraoka Takashi ]
29 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names [Tou Jing Yi ]
29 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names [Tou Jing Yi ]
28 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names [Michael Rank ]
28 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names [Tou Jing Yi ]
28 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names [Desmond Allen ]
28 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names ["John" ]
28 May Re: Hiring Indonesians for online bird ID [Hock ]
28 May Re: Indonesian bird trade [Gerard Brett ]
28 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names [Tou Jing Yi ]
28 May Indonesian bird trade ["Nick Brickle" ]
28 May Hiring Indonesians for online bird ID ["Kevin" ]
27 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names [Desmond Allen ]
27 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names ["John" ]
27 May Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade [Hock ]
27 May Indonesian bird trade ["Nick Brickle" ]
26 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names ["John" ]
27 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names ["John" ]
25 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names ["John" ]
26 May $BJV(B: Transliteration of Chinese bird names [Simba Chan ]
26 May Little Gull (Hydrocoloeus minutus) New Bird for Pakistan? ["islbirder" ]
27 May RE: RE: Indonesia bird trade ["Crossland, Andrew" ]
25 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names ["John" ]
25 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names [Michael Rank ]
25 May Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names ["John" ]
25 May Fwd: amazing flights of Arctic terns ["Mundkur, Taej" ]
24 May Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade [Avin Deen ]
23 May Bird recording. ["michelwatelet" ]
23 May Pale-Capped Pigeon sighted and a record shot taken at Kuldiha WLS, Odisha [caesar sen ]
23 May Pale-capped Pigeon or Purple Wood Pigeon (Columba punicea) | Simlipal, Odisha | May 2013 [--ramki-- ]
23 May a problem of the journal forktail ["Ó¥Ö®Áµ" ]
23 May Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade [Hock ]
23 May Re: Java's horrendous bird trade [Martin Williams ]
22 May Re: Java's horrendous bird trade [Thomas Kuenzel ]
22 May Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade [Thomas Kuenzel ]
22 May Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade [Brian Ivon Jones ]
21 May Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade ["David" ]
21 May RE: RE: Indonesia bird trade [Matthew Sheader ]
20 May Java's horrendous bird trade [Brendan Sloan ]
20 May Re: Java's horrendous bird trade [Andy Adcock ]
20 May Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade ["(Adam) A. Supriatna" ]
20 May Java's horrendous bird trade [Martin Williams ]
19 May Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade [Ronald Orenstein ]
19 May Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade []
20 May Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade ["David" ]
19 May Prof Valeriy Dmitrievich Il'ichev passed away [Jevgeni Shergalin ]
19 May Prof Valeriy Dmitrievich Il'ichev passed away [Jevgeni Shergalin ]
19 May Fw: RE: Indonesia bird trade [Brian Ivon Jones ]
19 May Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade [Frank Rheindt ]
19 May RE: Indonesia bird trade [colin trainor ]
18 May Re: Birds traded, Jogja, Java Indonesia - yesterday [Frank Rheindt ]
18 May Re: Birds traded, Jogja, Java Indonesia - yesterday [Andy Adcock ]
18 May Birds traded, Jogja, Java Indonesia - yesterday [colin trainor ]
16 May Identification of Gorsachius Night Heron? [Tim Edelsten ]

Subject: JOB, Regional Director TRAFFIC -SE Asia
From: "Colin T" <halmahera AT hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 23:19:07 -0000

Regional Director - South East Asia https://hrms.iucn.org/iresy/index.cfm?event=vac.show&vacId=586&lang=en BACKGROUND TRAFFIC, the wildlife trade monitoring network, works to ensure that trade in wild animals and plants is not a threat to the conservation of nature. We actively monitor and investigate wildlife trade and provide information to diverse audiences worldwide as a basis for effective conservation policies and programmes. TRAFFIC is a strategic alliance of World Wide Fund for Nature (WWF) and the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) and is an international network, organised into eight regional programmes including SouthEast Asia. The Regional Director – TRAFFIC SouthEast Asia is based at the TRAFFIC Southeast Asia regional office in Petaling Jaya, Malaysia, where TRAFFIC is legally hosted by WWF Malaysia. Please note that this role will be hosted on an WWF employment contract on behalf of TRAFFIC. Employment terms will follow those of WWF-Malaysia. In addition, a sub-regional office for the Greater Mekong operates in Viet Nam, a project office is hosted by IUCN in Thailand, and a National Co-Ordinator is based in Indonesia. The Regional Director is supervised by the Senior Programme Director for Asia and Pacific at TRAFFIC International. ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Accommodation Fraser's Hill & Taman Negara
From: Remco Hofland <cutia2005 AT yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 09:47:01 +0100 (BST)

Hi all, On behalf of a friend (Lucas Kaaij) I'm enquiring about the need to book ahead when one wants to stay at Fraser's Hill & Taman Negara (peninsular Malaysia) between the dates of July 16 and August 2? Also, is The Gap Resthouse still in operation? Lucas wants to visit this year; please reply to him privately (see CC). Best regards, Remco Hofland The Netherlands [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Panti forest in late July
From: Petter Zahl Marki <zoothera87 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:14:06 +0200

Dear all, I'll be stoppping in Singapore for three nights in late july (22nd to 25th) after a birding trip to the Solomon Islands. Whilst there, I would love to visit Panti forest. Main target would be Rail-Babbler, but I would also be interested in looking for some of Panti's other speciailities, including Bat Hawk, Cinnamon-headed Green Pigeon, Short-toed Coucal, Cinnamon-rumped Trogon, Blue-banded Kingfisher, Giant Pitta, Black-throated and White-necked Babbler and Scarlet-breasted Flowerpecker etc. If possible, it would be great to join some experienced birders from Singapore or other visiting birders who might consider a visit to Panti on those dates. I afyone is intersted or can recommend local birders to get in touch with I would greatly appreciate it. Cheers,Petter Zahl Marki [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: URGENT ACTION safeguard the national parks and nature reserves of Australia
From: "Brouwer EAC" <brouwereac AT online.nl>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 15:47:46 +0200

Dear all, I know this request appears to concern a different region but many Oriental birds winter in Australia, so I hope you will still sign and distribute the petition below. Twenty-five years ago I was the main editor of the first list of, and action plan for, threatened birds of Australia (Brouwer & Garnett 1990). I can assure you that the attempts on the life of Australia's national parks and nature reserves foreshadowed below would be an unmitigated disaster. And also a terrible precedent for other self-centred governments all over the world with bad intentions towards our common natural heritage. Migratory birds shared with East Asia would be very negatively affected. If you forward this request, feel free to quote the above paragraph and include my name. Many thanks and all the best, Joost Joost Brouwer coordinator Niger Bird DataBase NiBDaB, www.nibdab.org (in English and French) Brouwer Envir. & Agric. Consultancy Wildekamp 32, 6721 JD Bennekom, The Netherlands Ph. +31 318 41 34 68; e-mail BrouwerEAC AT online.nl; ----- Original Message ----- From: BirdLife Australia To: Joost Brouwer Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 9:25 AM Subject: URGENT ACTION safeguard the places you love Dear Supporter, Add your voice to BirdLife Australiaâ€™s petition to safeguard the future of the places and wildlife we all love at http://www.savethebirds.org.au/protect-our-national-parks-and-nature-reserves/. Stronger national environmental laws are needed to protect Australiaâ€™s national parks and nature reserves from an onslaught of state government development. We need your help to convince the federal Minister for the Environment, Tony Burke, to protect all national parks and the national reserve system under national law. State governments around the country are opening up our national parks and nature refuges to grazing, shooting, logging, resort developments and even mining.Over half (59%) of our threatened and near threatened birds rely on these protected areas for their survival. This week the Queensland Government decided to allow grazing in national parks and in NSW the timber industry is calling for a million hectares of our national parks to be opened for logging. In December last year, you put national environmental law on the political agenda by contacting your local MPs, signing a petition for Protect the Places you Love and sharing the message on social media â€“ and we succeeded! The Prime Minister took notice and halted plans to devolve decision-making powers to the States. This petition will be delivered on Monday 17th June demanding that decisions involving the National Reserve System, and habitat for federally listed species are retained at a federal level and that bilateral approval powers are removed from the EPBC Act. It is essential that we urge parliamentarians to take this opportunity . We have only a couple of days to influence the Governments decision on this matter. Please take action immediately - sign the BirdLife Australia petition at http://www.savethebirds.org.au/protect-our-national-parks-and-nature-reserves/. Please share this petition through your networks, on Facebook and Twitter. Thank you for taking action to protect the birds and the places you love. Paul Sullivan Chief Executive Officer . Unsubscribe Privacy Policy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Ethics in Bird Photography
From: "Sylvia" <sylviatramos AT yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 06:02:03 -0000

Hi, Not sure if my post came out to the group, so will post again. As a birdwatcher and bird photographer I find this discussion very interesting. Bird photography is becoming more and more popular as cameras become easier to use and more affordable. I think it's common to find that when a hobby becomes popular, the popularity can lead to unintended destruction from lack of awareness and education. I'd like to share an illustrated list of Do's and Don'ts for Wildlife Photography that the members of the Philippine Bird Photography Forum (PBPF) developed to serve as a baseline code of ethics for its members. This was intended to serve as a starting point. Members who want to maintain higher personal standards are also encouraged to do so! Here's the link: Wildlife Photography Do's and Don'ts Please feel free to download and distribute. Best, Sylvia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Re: Ethics in Bird Photography
From: Andy Adcock <andyadcock AT ntlworld.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 11:08:43 +0100

Tom, all I think the key to this is supervision. Someone has to be responsible for managing photographers at these sites if they can't be trusted to behave accordingly. Maybe the rangers who show the nests should hang around and actually do their paid job of protecting the park and it's resources no matter the size of the 'bung'. Andy On 6 June 2013 03:16, Backlund Tom wrote: > Being a birder from Finland I know some of the guys running the companies > that arrange these tours.The well being of the birds is always a priority. > Also the owls seems to be very tolerable against this sort of disturbance. > Not allowing people to carry GPS devices is also not to allow information > to the egg robbers running around in Northern Finland and Sweden every > summer. > Many of the birds here also seems to tolerate the constant running around > the nests. That dosn't mean that it should be allowed. > I think a few years ago some of the resort owners outside Kaeng Krachan > tried to get permisson to set up some hides inside the park mto take pics > mainly during the dry season, but the resistance was to big. They claimed > that the birds would get used to the feeding(water). Perhaps still a better > idea than sitting in front of a nest. > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > Quoting Andy Adcock : > > Hi Phil, all, >> this is a very fine line we all tread. >> >> We all, I'm sure would consider paying such a park worker just to see a >> bird and I'm sure many, including myself have done so. The difference >> here >> is the disturbance of a nest. >> >> Nest sites are big business, in Sweden and Finland, the price for a day >> out >> at a Ural Owl nest made my eyes water. Many European companies now guard >> nest sites jealously, forbidding customers to carry GPS devices and using >> only their own transport but I suppose that safeguards the nest sites too >> from disturbance on a larger scale. >> >> I don't think many of us would begrudge the part time rangers who are so >> poorly paid, some extra cash for this type of thing, in fact, perhaps the >> rangers should be encouraged openly to earn this extra cash but in doing >> so >> they should have some informal schooling as to proper behaviour around a >> nest, perhaps even installing a perimeter of some kind beyond which no one >> should encroach, ultimately though it's the up to the individual to behave >> as (S)he should. >> >> Persuading locals to benefit from the birds as living animals rather than >> seeing them as a free meal is a proven strategy employed by many NGO's, >> this example falls in to that category but where do we draw the line? Even >> finding nests to show to those who wish to see them, should be encouraged >> I >> feel, it's up to each observer to behave accordingly. >> >> Bird, park ranger, birder, photographer, surely the ingredients for a nice >> symbiotic relationship where all parties derive some benefit. >> >> >> Andy >> >> -- >> Andy Adcock >> 19Hooton Road >> Carlton >> Nottingham >> NG41FZ >> Nottinghamshire >> England >> >> 07757 697726 >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > -- Andy Adcock 19Hooton Road Carlton Nottingham NG41FZ Nottinghamshire England 07757 697726 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Re: Ethics in Bird Photography
From: Backlund Tom <backlund.tom AT multi.fi>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 05:16:01 +0300

Being a birder from Finland I know some of the guys running the companies that arrange these tours.The well being of the birds is always a priority. Also the owls seems to be very tolerable against this sort of disturbance. Not allowing people to carry GPS devices is also not to allow information to the egg robbers running around in Northern Finland and Sweden every summer. Many of the birds here also seems to tolerate the constant running around the nests. That dosn't mean that it should be allowed. I think a few years ago some of the resort owners outside Kaeng Krachan tried to get permisson to set up some hides inside the park mto take pics mainly during the dry season, but the resistance was to big. They claimed that the birds would get used to the feeding(water). Perhaps still a better idea than sitting in front of a nest. Tom Quoting Andy Adcock : > Hi Phil, all, > this is a very fine line we all tread. > > We all, I'm sure would consider paying such a park worker just to see a > bird and I'm sure many, including myself have done so. The difference here > is the disturbance of a nest. > > Nest sites are big business, in Sweden and Finland, the price for a day out > at a Ural Owl nest made my eyes water. Many European companies now guard > nest sites jealously, forbidding customers to carry GPS devices and using > only their own transport but I suppose that safeguards the nest sites too > from disturbance on a larger scale. > > I don't think many of us would begrudge the part time rangers who are so > poorly paid, some extra cash for this type of thing, in fact, perhaps the > rangers should be encouraged openly to earn this extra cash but in doing so > they should have some informal schooling as to proper behaviour around a > nest, perhaps even installing a perimeter of some kind beyond which no one > should encroach, ultimately though it's the up to the individual to behave > as (S)he should. > > Persuading locals to benefit from the birds as living animals rather than > seeing them as a free meal is a proven strategy employed by many NGO's, > this example falls in to that category but where do we draw the line? Even > finding nests to show to those who wish to see them, should be encouraged I > feel, it's up to each observer to behave accordingly. > > Bird, park ranger, birder, photographer, surely the ingredients for a nice > symbiotic relationship where all parties derive some benefit. > > > Andy > > -- > Andy Adcock > 19Hooton Road > Carlton > Nottingham > NG41FZ > Nottinghamshire > England > > 07757 697726 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Ethics in Bird Photography
From: Andy Adcock <andyadcock AT ntlworld.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 18:57:08 +0100

Hi Phil, all, this is a very fine line we all tread. We all, I'm sure would consider paying such a park worker just to see a bird and I'm sure many, including myself have done so. The difference here is the disturbance of a nest. Nest sites are big business, in Sweden and Finland, the price for a day out at a Ural Owl nest made my eyes water. Many European companies now guard nest sites jealously, forbidding customers to carry GPS devices and using only their own transport but I suppose that safeguards the nest sites too from disturbance on a larger scale. I don't think many of us would begrudge the part time rangers who are so poorly paid, some extra cash for this type of thing, in fact, perhaps the rangers should be encouraged openly to earn this extra cash but in doing so they should have some informal schooling as to proper behaviour around a nest, perhaps even installing a perimeter of some kind beyond which no one should encroach, ultimately though it's the up to the individual to behave as (S)he should. Persuading locals to benefit from the birds as living animals rather than seeing them as a free meal is a proven strategy employed by many NGO's, this example falls in to that category but where do we draw the line? Even finding nests to show to those who wish to see them, should be encouraged I feel, it's up to each observer to behave accordingly. Bird, park ranger, birder, photographer, surely the ingredients for a nice symbiotic relationship where all parties derive some benefit. Andy -- Andy Adcock 19Hooton Road Carlton Nottingham NG41FZ Nottinghamshire England 07757 697726 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Ethics in Bird Photography
From: Philip Round <pdround AT ksc.th.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 21:43:43 +0700

In the case of heavily visited Thai national parks, such as Kaeng Krachan in particular, some "park guards" have become part of the problem. They supplement their income by developing relationships with bird photographers, and selling them information on the nests they find. They are not supposed to do this, of course, but in reality 90% of park guards get paid a minimum wage as temporary workers, with no fringe benefits. And since they know full well that salaried government officials such as permanent forest guards and higher-ups in the system, right to the very top, are working all sorts of scams make money on the side, they are only doing the same thing. It's hard to blame them too much. In spite of the essentially dysfunctional nature of the Department of National Parks, and the appallingly poor pay and conditions for those at the bottom of the pile, I am always amazed how many keen and conscientious park workers I find. Philip Round ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Ethics in Bird-Photography
From: Glenda Larke <nnbm AT tm.net.my>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 20:08:17 +0800

Many S.E.Asian bird photographers came to the hobby through photography, rather than through birding. Consequently, they have no background in birding ethics. Some of this particular group aren't interested in learning about birds, either. The photographs they take are an exercise in one-upmanship, getting birds on film that no one has, etc. They boast about their successes on line and go after hard to capture species. They swop their photos and information online. It has nothing to do with conservation or contributing to our knowledge of birdlife, and probably has more in common with collecting stamps than nature. When birders, or more responsible bird photographers, have taken them to task, they were not willing to listen, and have on occasion been obnoxiously defensive, denying that any action of theirs has any effect. I'm not sure that there is anything that can be done about people like this, except perhaps to keep park rangers informed where applicable, and hope they will do something... It's a shame, because they give responsible birding photographers a bad name. Glenda Noramly. > _ > _______________________________ Glenda Larke http://glendalarke.blogspot.com Twitter: AT glendalarke Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/groups/105625628881/ Author of: *HAVENSTAR *Now available as an eBook *THE LAST STORMLORD *Available worldwide *STORMLORD RISING* Available worldwide *STORMLORD'S EXILE* Available worldwide *The Isles of Glory *trilogy: Book 1: The Aware Book 2: Gilfeather Book 3: The Tainted *The Mirage Makers* trilogy: Book 1: Heart of the Mirage Book 2: The Shadow of Tyr Book 3: Song of the Shiver Barrens and writing as Glenda Noramly: *Havenstar* http://glendalarke.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Ethics in Bird-Photography
From: Backlund Tom <backlund.tom AT multi.fi>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 14:09:12 +0300

Hi! Living close to Kaeng Krachan and being a keen photographer I can tell that I hardly ever have got any pictures from inside the park. But you can be sure that every time you go there,especially in April-May, you'll find loads of domestic photographers sitting around the bird nests . I never heard about any removing of nestlings and I don't think that it's an issue there but anyhow there must be disturbance on nearly daily basis. How these people get there information is a mystery to me but they all seems exactly know where to go. Tom Backlund Hua Hin Thailand Quoting Tom Tarrant : > Recently a birding-friend asked me an interesting question regarding > bird-photography ethics, he found a picture in the National Geographic > magazine that showed an adult bird feeding a fledgling away from the > nest on a rather artificial-looking perch and wondered if the young bird > had been taken from the nest by a photographer to create a > 'better-looking' photograph. > > He sent me a link to the photo but I'm not going to post it publicly, as > it could be legitimate and he doesn't want to unfairly accuse someone > but he would like to approach Nat Geo regarding the matter. > > This is part of what he wrote: > > "I don't want unfairly publicly accuse someone. I may write directly to > National Geographic but I want to canvas the views of a few experts > first. Would you also be able to discreetly ask acquaintances you think > may be able to give an informed opinion or help provide a suitable > response to NatGeo? There are many other photos on the internet showing > chicks which I suspect were removed from their nests in the quest for a > clearer shot. I've heard of a number of cases of nest abandonment due to > excessive and very close approaches by photographers. Saw more than 10 > photographers in Kaeng Krachan (Thailand) crowding rather too closely > around an Orange-bellied Trogon on a nest. Although I don't know what > the outcome was in that one." > > Would love to hear your opinion on the subject either on this forum or > indirectly to me and I will pass on any messages. I will also cross-post > this on the Birding-Aus mailing-list. > > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Eastward expansion of Asian Openbills
From: Michael Rank <rank AT mailbox.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 11:33:30 +0100

FYI I posted some details of openbill in China in April, here it is again in case you missed. Asian openbill recorded in Guizhou Up to 48 Asian openbills Anastomus oscitans have been recorded at Caohai lake in Guizhou province, the Chinese Journal of Zoology reports. This species was first recorded in China in October 2006 at Xihu (West Lake) in Eryuan county near Dali in Yunnan, and has since been sighted at Longjing reservoir near Bose, Sichuan, in Jinggu county and on the Lancang river near Jinghong in Yunnan and Anshun county in Guizhou, it adds. The birds were seen at Caohai on May 22 (two individuals), October 2 (13) and October 18 (25), 2012 with a peak of 48 birds on November 15. The openbills were seen associating with black-necked cranes, common cranes, little egrets, intermediate egrets, ruddy shelducks and bar-headed geese, close to a black-necked crane roosting site. The report says there is less disturbance to wildlife at Caohai than at other sites as there are guards to protect the black-necked cranes. CJZ 2013.2 Michael Rank On 5 Jun 2013, at 02:26, Simba Chan wrote: > Dear OBers, > > Thanks to Lei Jinyu of WWF China for the following information, The Asian Openbill was first recorded in Guangxi in 2010 in Baise. > > About 200 Asain Openbills were seen at Tiandong County of Guangxi in May 2013. > Photos: > http://www.xiangshu.com/read.php?tid=2893542&page=e > > Cheers, > > Simba Chan > >
Please consider biodiversity and the environment before deciding whether to print this message and any attachments. > The content of this e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received > this communication in error, be aware that forwarding it, copying it, or in any way disclosing its content to any other person, is > strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail immediately. > The BirdLife International Partnership is a Partnership of over 110 conservation organizations around the world. BirdLife International > the Secretariat to the Partnership is a UK registered company no. 2985746, registered Charity no. 1042125, registered address: Wellbrook Court, > Girton Road, Cambridge CB3 0NA, UK. BirdLife International Secretariat Regional Offices: Amman, Brussels, Nairobi, Quito, Suva, Singapore, Tokyo. >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Ethics in Bird-Photography
From: "boyceangler" <andyjboyce AT gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 09:03:51 -0000

Tom and others, I've found this practice relatively common here at Kinabalu Park in Sabah. The obsession with getting an adult on a "clean perch" seems to override all sense of right and wrong in these cases. We have had had several nests/nestlings die due to this behavior. That said, young birds often fledge at developmental stages that appear "too early" to us humans. There is actually a campaign in the US to educate people to leave fledgling birds alone in springtime. This is because would be do-gooders often pick up perfectly healthy fledgings in spring and take them to rehab centers and away from their parents. I'd be interested to take a look at the photo so I can give you an educated guess as to whether the bird is of fledging age or not. Andy Boyce Kinabalu Park, Sabah, MY --- In orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com, "Tom Tarrant" wrote: > > Recently a birding-friend asked me an interesting question regarding > bird-photography ethics, he found a picture in the National Geographic > magazine that showed an adult bird feeding a fledgling away from the > nest on a rather artificial-looking perch and wondered if the young bird > had been taken from the nest by a photographer to create a > 'better-looking' photograph. > > He sent me a link to the photo but I'm not going to post it publicly, as > it could be legitimate and he doesn't want to unfairly accuse someone > but he would like to approach Nat Geo regarding the matter. > > This is part of what he wrote: > > "I don't want unfairly publicly accuse someone. I may write directly to > National Geographic but I want to canvas the views of a few experts > first. Would you also be able to discreetly ask acquaintances you think > may be able to give an informed opinion or help provide a suitable > response to NatGeo? There are many other photos on the internet showing > chicks which I suspect were removed from their nests in the quest for a > clearer shot. I've heard of a number of cases of nest abandonment due to > excessive and very close approaches by photographers. Saw more than 10 > photographers in Kaeng Krachan (Thailand) crowding rather too closely > around an Orange-bellied Trogon on a nest. Although I don't know what > the outcome was in that one." > > Would love to hear your opinion on the subject either on this forum or > indirectly to me and I will pass on any messages. I will also cross-post > this on the Birding-Aus mailing-list. > > Tom > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Ethics in Bird-Photography
From: "Tom Tarrant" <aviceda AT hotkey.net.au>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2013 23:44:49 -0000

Recently a birding-friend asked me an interesting question regarding bird-photography ethics, he found a picture in the National Geographic magazine that showed an adult bird feeding a fledgling away from the nest on a rather artificial-looking perch and wondered if the young bird had been taken from the nest by a photographer to create a 'better-looking' photograph. He sent me a link to the photo but I'm not going to post it publicly, as it could be legitimate and he doesn't want to unfairly accuse someone but he would like to approach Nat Geo regarding the matter. This is part of what he wrote: "I don't want unfairly publicly accuse someone. I may write directly to National Geographic but I want to canvas the views of a few experts first. Would you also be able to discreetly ask acquaintances you think may be able to give an informed opinion or help provide a suitable response to NatGeo? There are many other photos on the internet showing chicks which I suspect were removed from their nests in the quest for a clearer shot. I've heard of a number of cases of nest abandonment due to excessive and very close approaches by photographers. Saw more than 10 photographers in Kaeng Krachan (Thailand) crowding rather too closely around an Orange-bellied Trogon on a nest. Although I don't know what the outcome was in that one." Would love to hear your opinion on the subject either on this forum or indirectly to me and I will pass on any messages. I will also cross-post this on the Birding-Aus mailing-list. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: $BJV(B: Eastward expansion of Asian Openbills
From: Simba Chan <simba.chan AT birdlife.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 01:26:06 +0000

Dear OBers, Thanks to Lei Jinyu of WWF China for the following information, The Asian Openbill was first recorded in Guangxi in 2010 in Baise. About 200 Asain Openbills were seen at Tiandong County of Guangxi in May 2013. Photos: http://www.xiangshu.com/read.php?tid=2893542&page=e Cheers, Simba Chan
Please consider biodiversity and the environment before deciding whether to print this message and any attachments. The content of this e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, be aware that forwarding it, copying it, or in any way disclosing its content to any other person, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail immediately. The BirdLife International Partnership is a Partnership of over 110 conservation organizations around the world. BirdLife International the Secretariat to the Partnership is a UK registered company no. 2985746, registered Charity no. 1042125, registered address: Wellbrook Court, Girton Road, Cambridge CB3 0NA, UK. BirdLife International Secretariat Regional Offices: Amman, Brussels, Nairobi, Quito, Suva, Singapore, Tokyo.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: $BJV(B: Eastward expansion of Asian Openbills
From: Simba Chan <simba.chan AT birdlife.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 00:32:35 +0000

Dear OBer, Sorry for the typo. I meant $B!F(BThe Asian Openbill has not been recorded in China until 2006$B!G(B. Cheers Simba $B:9=P?M(B: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] $BBeM}?M(B Simba Chan $BAw?.F|;~(B: 2013$BG/(B6$B7n(B5$BF|(B 8:29 $B08 AT h(B: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com $B7oL>(B: [OB] Eastward expansion of Asian Openbills Dear OBers, Yesterday from the weibo (Chinese microblog), Asian Openbills have now reached Liuzhou of Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region. The Asian Openbill was been recorded in China until 2006. From 2012 they became common birds in some areas in Yunnan and Guizhou. Last month they were seen in Sichuan and in the last few days in Guangxi. It seems nothing can stop them from moving into Guangdong or the Yangtze basin. Wonder if they will finally colonize southern China. Simba Chan BirdLife International Asia Division
Please consider biodiversity and the environment before deciding whether to print this message and any attachments. The content of this e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, be aware that forwarding it, copying it, or in any way disclosing its content to any other person, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail immediately. The BirdLife International Partnership is a Partnership of over 110 conservation organizations around the world. BirdLife International the Secretariat to the Partnership is a UK registered company no. 2985746, registered Charity no. 1042125, registered address: Wellbrook Court, Girton Road, Cambridge CB3 0NA, UK. BirdLife International Secretariat Regional Offices: Amman, Brussels, Nairobi, Quito, Suva, Singapore, Tokyo.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Eastward expansion of Asian Openbills
From: Simba Chan <simba.chan AT birdlife.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 23:29:02 +0000

Dear OBers, Yesterday from the weibo (Chinese microblog), Asian Openbills have now reached Liuzhou of Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region. The Asian Openbill was been recorded in China until 2006. From 2012 they became common birds in some areas in Yunnan and Guizhou. Last month they were seen in Sichuan and in the last few days in Guangxi. It seems nothing can stop them from moving into Guangdong or the Yangtze basin. Wonder if they will finally colonize southern China. Simba Chan BirdLife International Asia Division
Please consider biodiversity and the environment before deciding whether to print this message and any attachments. The content of this e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, be aware that forwarding it, copying it, or in any way disclosing its content to any other person, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail immediately. The BirdLife International Partnership is a Partnership of over 110 conservation organizations around the world. BirdLife International the Secretariat to the Partnership is a UK registered company no. 2985746, registered Charity no. 1042125, registered address: Wellbrook Court, Girton Road, Cambridge CB3 0NA, UK. BirdLife International Secretariat Regional Offices: Amman, Brussels, Nairobi, Quito, Suva, Singapore, Tokyo.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: June issue of eBON
From: Sylvia Ramos <sylviatramos AT yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 05:34:10 -0700 (PDT)

Hi Birdwatchers! Please visit http://ebonph.wordpress.com/ to read the online monthly newsletter of the Wild Bird Club of the Philippines. This is the travel issue. Members of the Wild Bird Club of the Philippines write about migrating birds, birdwatching abroad, birdwatching in both nearby and far-flung parts of the Philippines, and birding as part of the WBCPâ€™s first Big Year contest. Juan Mesquida writes about a charming, pleasant and birdy site near Metro Manila thatâ€™s good for seeing forest birds. Birding Places: Tanay Rainforest Camp. Convenient Forest Birding Near Metro-Manila By Juan Mesquida Philippine Hawk-Owl. Photo by Juan Mesquida. The WBCP launched its first ever Big Year Philippines contest last July 2012. The contestants were asked to send in an update of their Big Year so far. Two of the contestants share highlights of their Big Years so far. Big Year Ph Contest Update Featuring Cristina Cinco and Pete Simpson WBCP member Felix Servita gives an update on the birds found in Masbate including species that were previously unrecorded there. Field Report: Birds of Masbate Island by Felix Servita Coral flats at Barangay Ibingay, Masbate City. Photo by Felix Servita. Manila-based WBCP member Brian Ellis writes about an interesting way to learn about a new country. He went birdwatching during his free time while on a visit to Dubai for some work for his church. Birdwatcher Abroad: Birding inÂ Dubai by Brian Ellis Â Greater Cormorant and Flamingo Slides from the lecture given by Godfrey Jakosalem during the 8th Philippine Bird Festival held on December 2012. Migratory Birds: Philippines as a Migratory Flyway by: Philip Godfrey Jakosalem A roundup of the activities of the Wild Bird Club of the Philippines on May 2012. May Roundup by Mike Lu and Maia TaÃ±edo WBCP-P2F Bird Race in UP Diliman. Photo by Maia Tanedo Hope you enjoy reading the newsletter! Best, Sylvia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: RE: Paper: Philippine, Wallacea, genetics, biogeog, insular Aethopyga sunbirds
From: "Richard Klim" <richard AT klim.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 08:35:34 +0100

Conclusions summarised here: www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=249585 Richard Klim Somerset, UK From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Colin T Sent: 02 June 2013 06:34 To: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Subject: [OB] Paper: Philippine, Wallacea, genetics, biogeog, insular Aethopyga sunbirds http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jbi.12074/abstract Water barriers and intra-island isolation contribute to diversification in the insular Aethopyga sunbirds (Aves: Nectariniidae) Peter A. Hosner1,*, Árpád S. Nyári1,2, Robert G. Moyle1 Journal of Biogeography Volume 40, Issue 6, pages 1094–1106, June 2013 Keywords: Avian evolution; colonization; island evolution; multi-locus; Philippines; phylogeny; sea level change; Southeast Asia; Sundaland Abstract Aim Colonization and subsequent isolation across deep-water barriers is thought to be the primary driver of diversification in insular birds. Shallow-water barriers and intra-island isolation are less well-documented drivers of avian diversification. We examined the relative roles of different geographical barriers in the diversification of Aethopyga sunbirds, a widespread Southeast Asian genus that has its greatest diversity in the Philippine Archipelago. Location Philippines, Southeast Asia, Wallacea. Methods We reconstructed the phylogenetic relationships among Aethopyga sunbirds with mitochondrial and nuclear DNA sequences. Phylogeny was inferred using concatenated and coalescent frameworks, implemented in maximum likelihood and Bayesian analyses. We used maximum likelihood ancestral state reconstructions to examine the ancestral distribution and colonization history of Aethopyga. To determine whether the diversification at each node occurred within a continent, across a shallow-water barrier, across a deep-water barrier or within an island, we used a series of statements based on the phylogeny, current distribution of species and bathymetric reconstructions. Results Ancestral state reconstructions inferred that the core Aethopyga ancestor was continental, and that the diversity of Aethopyga on oceanic islands is the result of three or four independent colonization events. Dispersal and subsequent isolation across deep-water barriers was the most common mode of diversification in insular Aethopyga, although intra-island isolation contributed to diversity, producing a small montane radiation within Mindanao. Analyses inferred only a single unequivocal event of diversification across a shallow-water barrier. Deep molecular divergences between phenotypically distinct subspecies suggested that the taxonomy of Aethopyga is overly conservative and obscures biogeographical patterns. We recommend elevating five subspecies, all of which are endemic to the Philippines, to full species. Main conclusions In addition to corroborating the importance of isolation across deep-water barriers, these data also underscore a potential role for additional isolating mechanisms in the generation of biodiversity on oceanic islands. A clade of four montane Aethopyga taxa evolved in situ within the Mindanao sky-island system, an exception to the paradigm that birds do not diversify within the geographical confines of oceanic islands. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Paper: Philippine, Wallacea, genetics, biogeog, insular Aethopyga sunbirds
From: "Colin T" <halmahera AT hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2013 05:34:07 -0000

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jbi.12074/abstract Water barriers and intra-island isolation contribute to diversification in the insular Aethopyga sunbirds (Aves: Nectariniidae) Peter A. Hosner1,*, Árpád S. Nyári1,2, Robert G. Moyle1 Journal of Biogeography Volume 40, Issue 6, pages 1094–1106, June 2013 Keywords: Avian evolution; colonization; island evolution; multi-locus; Philippines; phylogeny; sea level change; Southeast Asia; Sundaland Abstract Aim Colonization and subsequent isolation across deep-water barriers is thought to be the primary driver of diversification in insular birds. Shallow-water barriers and intra-island isolation are less well-documented drivers of avian diversification. We examined the relative roles of different geographical barriers in the diversification of Aethopyga sunbirds, a widespread Southeast Asian genus that has its greatest diversity in the Philippine Archipelago. Location Philippines, Southeast Asia, Wallacea. Methods We reconstructed the phylogenetic relationships among Aethopyga sunbirds with mitochondrial and nuclear DNA sequences. Phylogeny was inferred using concatenated and coalescent frameworks, implemented in maximum likelihood and Bayesian analyses. We used maximum likelihood ancestral state reconstructions to examine the ancestral distribution and colonization history of Aethopyga. To determine whether the diversification at each node occurred within a continent, across a shallow-water barrier, across a deep-water barrier or within an island, we used a series of statements based on the phylogeny, current distribution of species and bathymetric reconstructions. Results Ancestral state reconstructions inferred that the core Aethopyga ancestor was continental, and that the diversity of Aethopyga on oceanic islands is the result of three or four independent colonization events. Dispersal and subsequent isolation across deep-water barriers was the most common mode of diversification in insular Aethopyga, although intra-island isolation contributed to diversity, producing a small montane radiation within Mindanao. Analyses inferred only a single unequivocal event of diversification across a shallow-water barrier. Deep molecular divergences between phenotypically distinct subspecies suggested that the taxonomy of Aethopyga is overly conservative and obscures biogeographical patterns. We recommend elevating five subspecies, all of which are endemic to the Philippines, to full species. Main conclusions In addition to corroborating the importance of isolation across deep-water barriers, these data also underscore a potential role for additional isolating mechanisms in the generation of biodiversity on oceanic islands. A clade of four montane Aethopyga taxa evolved in situ within the Mindanao sky-island system, an exception to the paradigm that birds do not diversify within the geographical confines of oceanic islands. ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Hiring Indonesians for online bird ID
From: darrask <darrask AT ymail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 19:48:48 +0700

Hello Ooi, thank you for your enthusiastic answer! Sorry for my late answer, I waited for some additional information. The project is starting as soon as possible, maybe next month. But for the moment, no Indonesian has answered the call... Past calls from Jambi might be very useful indeed, but are they not on Xeno-Canto yet? Volunteers might help with identifying and reviewing bird calls on the website! But as "volunteers" implies, they would not be paid for that. We only have means to pay Indonesian nationals for this, unfortunately. The guys at Xeno-Canto also posted my news, I hope that I can at least get volunteer reviewers in case I cannot find Indonesian call identifiers... Best, Kevin On 28/05/2013 10:37, Hock wrote: > > Hi Kevin n all, > Very good n unique project ! Congrats ! > When is this project starting ? > > Need calls recorded in the past in Jambi ? > Why not include calls of other wildlife too ? > > How can Volunteers outside Indonesia help online? In the field? > There are many bird sound experts here in OB who can help n speak Malay!? > Xeno-canto sounds team can help ? > > Must be Indonesians or just need Indonesian speaking to be hired ?:) > > Tk, > Ooi Chin Hock. 60122357123 iPhone > > On 28 May, 2013, at 9:26, Kevin > wrote: > > (versi bahasa Indonesia dibawah) > > We are looking for bird call identifiers for our ecological research > project called SoundEfforts > We are recording birds in 44 different locations situated in different > habitats: primary forest, secondary forest, bush swamp, jungle rubber, > rubber and oil palm plantation, all over the province of Jambi, > Sumatra. > > We hire Indonesian nationals who can identify Sumatran bird calls and > tag them online on our prototype website SoundEfforts > (http://vmext21-180.gwdg.de , user: > XCtest, password: XCtest). > > We also welcome comments on the website and people who want to > contribute to the project. > > In a first step, we need to know who is interested before defining > precise terms of participation. Please contact me at kdarras AT gwdg.de > > > Thank you, > *** > Kami mencari pengenal suara burung untuk proyek penelitian kami > "SoundEfforts". > > Kami sedang merekam suara burung selama satu tahun di 44 lokasi yang > berbeda: hutan primer, sekunder, rawa belukar, hutan karet, kebun karet > dan sawit, tersebar di provinsi Jambi, Sumatera. > > Kami mempekerjakan orang indonesia yang mampu mengenal suara burung > darat Sumatera dan menandai suara itu di website kami SoundEfforts > (http://vmext21-180.gwdg.de , user: > XCtest, password: XCtest). > > Kami juga menyelamatdatangi saran tentang websitenya dan orang yang > ingin membantu di proyek. > > Sebelumnya, kami perlu tahu siapa saja yang tertarik, silakan hubungi > kami di kdarras AT gwdg.de . > > Terima kasih, > > Kevin Darras from EFForTS (http://www.uni-goettingen.de/en/412118.html > ) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: Hans Peeters <hjpeeters1 AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 14:50:34 -0700

I'm sure you know that some writers of Spanish solve the absence of a tilde by simply adding a strategic i, as in anio, thus sidestepping vulgarity. But that's off topic...Hans On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Desmond Allen wrote: > If you have a text file with the bird names in Chinese, try > http://www.cozywebsite.com/dictionary/compose/# > This can output in pinyin with tone markers. > cheers > Des > > On 27 May 2013, at 14:09, "John" wrote: > > > Precisely -- "where the language is being taught". Since the whole idea > of transliterations is to convey to non-speakers of the language at issue, > whether students or foreign birders, some close semblance of the > pronunciation in Latin letters, tone designations are a necessity in this > case just as for the students. > > > > This is not a problem where alphabets, whether single phonemes (Russian, > Bulgarian) or syllables (Japanese Katakana, Cree) are concerned. However, > diacritical marks are vital where there is either no connection at all > between the written symbol and the pronunciation, or if even an element is > unwritten. Non-speakers of Hebrew would be at a loss without the vowel > points, which serve an analogous purpose to the tone marks in Chinese. > > > > Even within languages using the Latin alphabet, dicritical marks should > not be ignored. For instance, in Spanish one would not want to omit the > tilde from the common word año because that would change a year into > an...... well, you know. > > > > However, I would be grateful for a transliteration of Prof. Zheng's work > even without the tones > > > > Cheers, > > John > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Geoff Carey > > To: 'John' ; 'Phil Straw' > > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:36 PM > > Subject: RE: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > I wouldn't worry about tone designations. One almost never sees them, > except where the language is being taught. Given that the context in which > these names are used will help enormously, I think inaccurate tones is not > an issue. > > > > Regards, > > > > Geoff Carey > > > > Director, AEC Ltd. > > > > From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com [mailto: > orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John > > Sent: 26 May 2013 09:45 > > To: Phil Straw > > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > Maybe that was me, Phil -- Terry is my nickname and I am known by that > name to my Canadian university chums and at my UK publishers, Cambridge > Scholars in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. > > > > As my earlier e-mail indicated, the MacKinnon / Phillipps book is > obviously not correctly / usefully transliterated as they have no tone > designations at all, either the older type with the superscript numbers, or > the current version using diacritical accents. And I have heard that it is > not very accurate from an ornithological standpoint as well. > > > > Best regards > > John > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Phil Straw > > To: John > > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:50 PM > > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > john, > > > > A field guide to the Birds of China (Chinese version) by John MacKinnon > and Karen Phillipps has all the names in English, Chinese and pinyin. It is > much cheaper than the English version I bought it in Beijing in 2002 for $40 > > Terry (I forgot his surname) tried to get help with transliteration of > birds of the world but did not get as far as he would have liked. > > > > Cheers, > > Phil > > > > Phil Straw > > Vice Chairman > > Australasian Wader Studies Group of BirdLife Australia > > philip.straw AT awsg.org.au > > www.awsg.org.au > > Tel: 61 2 9597 7765 > > Mob: 0411 249 075 > > > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > On 26/05/2013, at 3:03 AM, "John" wrote: > > > > Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of the > Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the Classification > and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or other > Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. > > > > John T. Burridge > > PO Box 14444 > > East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 > > USA > > +1(401)435-6111 > > +1(401)435-4880 > > birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca > > burridge AT cox.net > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out > more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, > please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: Hiraoka Takashi <hiraoka AT yamashina.or.jp>
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 01:53:04 +0900

Dear OB'ers, Greetings from Japan. I sometimes use the following website to get pinyin spelling of Chinese characters. http://www.frelax.com/sc/service/pinyin/ Just copy the Chinese characters and paste them into the box and click the button on the right, you will get pinyin and tone of these letters. Best wishes, Hiraoka Takashi Yamashina Institute for Ornithology Abiko, Chiba Pref., Japan On 2013/05/29, at 1:02, Michael Rank wrote: Excellent, now I know how to say Little Chachalaca in Chinese (or rather the Ch characters) but it doesn't give Pinyin which I think John is also looking for... It gives the Chinese for aforesaid LC as "little crowned pheasant" which seems a bit confusing.... It's apparent a kind of motmot, all other members of this family include in the name the very obscure character é´—which isn't in most dictionaries. Fascinating stuff. Michael On 28 May 2013, at 15:24, Tou Jing Yi wrote: > Dear John, > > Try this website: > > http://www.cnbird.org.cn/world/first.htm > > You can search either by English names (part of the name such as "toucan" > is good enough) or parts of scientific name, both generic and specific > names, but be aware that a few of them are with typo in the English name > and whether or not there is a hyphen or space is critical as the search is > exact search, so you may need to try a few times on some species. > > Thanks. > > > > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Desmond Allen wrote: > >> John, >> I just did a quickweb search and found this: >> >> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwLbmLpGzCPuMzVjOWYwNzMtOWYxZC00YmUwLWFiYmQtMTA2YzUzNThkNGE2/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1 >> If you download the pdf you will get a list of Chinese birds in English, >> Latin and ä¸æ–‡â€¦. >> >> Des >> >> On 28 May 2013, at 13:13, "John" wrote: >> >>> Unfortunately I have only the hard-cover paper edition of Prof. Zheng's >> list and thus it would be impossible for me to copy the Chinese characters. >> JTB >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Tou Jing Yi >>> To: John >>> Cc: Desmond Allen ; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com >>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:05 PM >>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> The full list of Chinese names are available but not with the >>> transliterations, but with a bit of hard work, one can copy the Chinese >>> characters of the desired term and place into Google Translate that will >>> not only give you the transliterations but also help you pronounce it. >>> Thanks. >>> >>> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 4:48 AM, John wrote: >>> >>>> The link is greatly appreciated, Desmond, but all it gives on an >> attempt to >>>> enter an English or Latin name and clicked for conversion to Pinyin is >>>> "UNDEFINED". >>>> >>>> Regards, John >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Desmond Allen" >>>> To: "John" >>>> Cc: "Geoff Carey" ; "'Phil Straw'" < >> philip.straw AT awsg.org.au >>>>> ; >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 2:07 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >>>> >>>> >>>> If you have a text file with the bird names in Chinese, try >>>> http://www.cozywebsite.com/dictionary/compose/# >>>> This can output in pinyin with tone markers. >>>> cheers >>>> Des >>>> >>>> On 27 May 2013, at 14:09, "John" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Precisely -- "where the language is being taught". Since the whole >> idea >>>> of >>>>> transliterations is to convey to non-speakers of the language at >> issue, >>>>> whether students or foreign birders, some close semblance of the >>>>> pronunciation in Latin letters, tone designations are a necessity in >> this >>>>> case just as for the students. >>>>> >>>>> This is not a problem where alphabets, whether single phonemes >> (Russian, >>>>> Bulgarian) or syllables (Japanese Katakana, Cree) are concerned. >> However, >>>>> diacritical marks are vital where there is either no connection at >> all >>>>> between the written symbol and the pronunciation, or if even an >> element >>>> is >>>>> unwritten. Non-speakers of Hebrew would be at a loss without the >> vowel >>>>> points, which serve an analogous purpose to the tone marks in >> Chinese. >>>>> >>>>> Even within languages using the Latin alphabet, dicritical marks >> should >>>>> not be ignored. For instance, in Spanish one would not want to omit >> the >>>>> tilde from the common word aÃ±o because that would change a year into >>>>> an...... well, you know. >>>>> >>>>> However, I would be grateful for a transliteration of Prof. Zheng's >> work >>>>> even without the tones >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Geoff Carey >>>>> To: 'John' ; 'Phil Straw' >>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:36 PM >>>>> Subject: RE: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >>>>> >>>>> I wouldn't worry about tone designations. One almost never sees them, >>>>> except where the language is being taught. Given that the context in >>>> which >>>>> these names are used will help enormously, I think inaccurate tones >> is >>>> not >>>>> an issue. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Geoff Carey >>>>> >>>>> Director, AEC Ltd. >>>>> >>>>> From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com >>>>> [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John >>>>> Sent: 26 May 2013 09:45 >>>>> To: Phil Straw >>>>> Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >>>>> >>>>> Maybe that was me, Phil -- Terry is my nickname and I am known by >> that >>>>> name to my Canadian university chums and at my UK publishers, >> Cambridge >>>>> Scholars in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. >>>>> >>>>> As my earlier e-mail indicated, the MacKinnon / Phillipps book is >>>>> obviously not correctly / usefully transliterated as they have no >> tone >>>>> designations at all, either the older type with the superscript >> numbers, >>>>> or the current version using diacritical accents. And I have heard >> that >>>> it >>>>> is not very accurate from an ornithological standpoint as well. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Phil Straw >>>>> To: John >>>>> Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com >>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:50 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >>>>> >>>>> john, >>>>> >>>>> A field guide to the Birds of China (Chinese version) by John >> MacKinnon >>>>> and Karen Phillipps has all the names in English, Chinese and >> pinyin. It >>>>> is much cheaper than the English version I bought it in Beijing in >> 2002 >>>>> for $40 >>>>> Terry (I forgot his surname) tried to get help with transliteration >> of >>>>> birds of the world but did not get as far as he would have liked. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Phil >>>>> >>>>> Phil Straw >>>>> Vice Chairman >>>>> Australasian Wader Studies Group of BirdLife Australia >>>>> philip.straw AT awsg.org.au >>>>> www.awsg.org.au >>>>> Tel: 61 2 9597 7765 >>>>> Mob: 0411 249 075 >>>>> >>>>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >>>>> >>>>> On 26/05/2013, at 3:03 AM, "John" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of >> the >>>>> Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the >> Classification >>>>> and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or >>>> other >>>>> Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> John T. Burridge >>>>> PO Box 14444 >>>>> East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 >>>>> USA >>>>> +1(401)435-6111 >>>>> +1(401)435-4880 >>>>> birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca >>>>> burridge AT cox.net >>>>> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find >> out >>>> more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, >>>> please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: Tou Jing Yi <jytou85 AT gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 00:20:36 +0800

Dear Michael, Little Chachalaca is å°å† é›‰ and as you mentioned, it means "Little Crowned Pheasant", since the species is not found in China, so its only logical to link the name to their relatives in China, being a Galliform bird, so it was known as a "pheasant". The pinyin for it is "Xiao3 Guan1 Zhi4". Although it had a "motmot" in their scientific name, I the motmot are Coraciform birds like kingfishers and etc which is pretty different, I am not sure why the specific name was motmot in this case, but I can try check out my scientific name dictionary when I am free to find out the actual meaning of "motmot" in this case. Thanks. On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Tou Jing Yi wrote: > Dear Michael, > > They actually made up some words in order to use to name birds and other > creatures not native to China or not known in ancient Chinese, so its not > surprising to find some of these words that you can't find in any proper > dictionary. é´— is a traditional written form, not even a modern simplified > form. The Taiwanese had a typing system that allows them to invent words > (they are still using traditional written form unlike the mainland China > which practices simplified form, HK also uses traditional written form, I > am not aware if they switch it to simplified in their education system > after merging back into China or not). This capability of inventing words > by Taiwanese especially for human names, can also be used to invent words > for other stuff, so sometimes probably just a modern make up. é´— for > example is made up by the character of ç«‹ (stand) and é¸Ÿ (bird), so literally > a bird that stands? I had seen the word used to refer to Kookaburra before > as ç¬‘é´— or laughing "motmot"? but that is not an official usage. > Kingfishers do get their own specific term of ç¿ é¸Ÿ. Thanks. > > > > > On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Michael Rank wrote: > >> Excellent, now I know how to say Little Chachalaca in Chinese (or rather >> the Ch characters) but it doesn't give Pinyin which I think John is also >> looking for... It gives the Chinese for aforesaid LC as "little crowned >> pheasant" which seems a bit confusing.... It's apparent a kind of motmot, >> all other members of this family include in the name the very obscure >> character é´—which isn't in most dictionaries. Fascinating stuff. >> >> Michael >> >> On 28 May 2013, at 15:24, Tou Jing Yi wrote: >> >> > Dear John, >> > >> > Try this website: >> > >> > http://www.cnbird.org.cn/world/first.htm >> > >> > You can search either by English names (part of the name such as >> "toucan" >> > is good enough) or parts of scientific name, both generic and specific >> > names, but be aware that a few of them are with typo in the English name >> > and whether or not there is a hyphen or space is critical as the search >> is >> > exact search, so you may need to try a few times on some species. >> > >> > Thanks. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Desmond Allen >> wrote: >> > >> >> John, >> >> I just did a quickweb search and found this: >> >> >> >> >> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwLbmLpGzCPuMzVjOWYwNzMtOWYxZC00YmUwLWFiYmQtMTA2YzUzNThkNGE2/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1 >> >> If you download the pdf you will get a list of Chinese birds in >> English, >> >> Latin and ä¸æ–‡â€¦. >> >> >> >> Des >> >> >> >> On 28 May 2013, at 13:13, "John" wrote: >> >> >> >>> Unfortunately I have only the hard-cover paper edition of Prof. >> Zheng's >> >> list and thus it would be impossible for me to copy the Chinese >> characters. >> >> JTB >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: Tou Jing Yi >> >>> To: John >> >>> Cc: Desmond Allen ; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com >> >>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:05 PM >> >>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >> >>> >> >>> Dear all, >> >>> >> >>> The full list of Chinese names are available but not with the >> >>> transliterations, but with a bit of hard work, one can copy the >> Chinese >> >>> characters of the desired term and place into Google Translate that >> will >> >>> not only give you the transliterations but also help you pronounce it. >> >>> Thanks. >> >>> >> >>> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 4:48 AM, John wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> The link is greatly appreciated, Desmond, but all it gives on an >> >> attempt to >> >>>> enter an English or Latin name and clicked for conversion to Pinyin >> is >> >>>> "UNDEFINED". >> >>>> >> >>>> Regards, John >> >>>> >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> From: "Desmond Allen" >> >>>> To: "John" >> >>>> Cc: "Geoff Carey" ; "'Phil Straw'" < >> >> philip.straw AT awsg.org.au >> >>>>> ; >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 2:07 PM >> >>>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> If you have a text file with the bird names in Chinese, try >> >>>> http://www.cozywebsite.com/dictionary/compose/# >> >>>> This can output in pinyin with tone markers. >> >>>> cheers >> >>>> Des >> >>>> >> >>>> On 27 May 2013, at 14:09, "John" wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Precisely -- "where the language is being taught". Since the whole >> >> idea >> >>>> of >> >>>>> transliterations is to convey to non-speakers of the language at >> >> issue, >> >>>>> whether students or foreign birders, some close semblance of the >> >>>>> pronunciation in Latin letters, tone designations are a necessity in >> >> this >> >>>>> case just as for the students. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> This is not a problem where alphabets, whether single phonemes >> >> (Russian, >> >>>>> Bulgarian) or syllables (Japanese Katakana, Cree) are concerned. >> >> However, >> >>>>> diacritical marks are vital where there is either no connection at >> >> all >> >>>>> between the written symbol and the pronunciation, or if even an >> >> element >> >>>> is >> >>>>> unwritten. Non-speakers of Hebrew would be at a loss without the >> >> vowel >> >>>>> points, which serve an analogous purpose to the tone marks in >> >> Chinese. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Even within languages using the Latin alphabet, dicritical marks >> >> should >> >>>>> not be ignored. For instance, in Spanish one would not want to omit >> >> the >> >>>>> tilde from the common word aÃ±o because that would change a year into >> >>>>> an...... well, you know. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> However, I would be grateful for a transliteration of Prof. Zheng's >> >> work >> >>>>> even without the tones >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Cheers, >> >>>>> John >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>> From: Geoff Carey >> >>>>> To: 'John' ; 'Phil Straw' >> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:36 PM >> >>>>> Subject: RE: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I wouldn't worry about tone designations. One almost never sees >> them, >> >>>>> except where the language is being taught. Given that the context in >> >>>> which >> >>>>> these names are used will help enormously, I think inaccurate tones >> >> is >> >>>> not >> >>>>> an issue. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Regards, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Geoff Carey >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Director, AEC Ltd. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com >> >>>>> [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John >> >>>>> Sent: 26 May 2013 09:45 >> >>>>> To: Phil Straw >> >>>>> Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Maybe that was me, Phil -- Terry is my nickname and I am known by >> >> that >> >>>>> name to my Canadian university chums and at my UK publishers, >> >> Cambridge >> >>>>> Scholars in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> As my earlier e-mail indicated, the MacKinnon / Phillipps book is >> >>>>> obviously not correctly / usefully transliterated as they have no >> >> tone >> >>>>> designations at all, either the older type with the superscript >> >> numbers, >> >>>>> or the current version using diacritical accents. And I have heard >> >> that >> >>>> it >> >>>>> is not very accurate from an ornithological standpoint as well. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Best regards >> >>>>> John >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>> From: Phil Straw >> >>>>> To: John >> >>>>> Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com >> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:50 PM >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >> >>>>> >> >>>>> john, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> A field guide to the Birds of China (Chinese version) by John >> >> MacKinnon >> >>>>> and Karen Phillipps has all the names in English, Chinese and >> >> pinyin. It >> >>>>> is much cheaper than the English version I bought it in Beijing in >> >> 2002 >> >>>>> for $40 >> >>>>> Terry (I forgot his surname) tried to get help with transliteration >> >> of >> >>>>> birds of the world but did not get as far as he would have liked. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Cheers, >> >>>>> Phil >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Phil Straw >> >>>>> Vice Chairman >> >>>>> Australasian Wader Studies Group of BirdLife Australia >> >>>>> philip.straw AT awsg.org.au >> >>>>> www.awsg.org.au >> >>>>> Tel: 61 2 9597 7765 >> >>>>> Mob: 0411 249 075 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 26/05/2013, at 3:03 AM, "John" wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of >> >> the >> >>>>> Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the >> >> Classification >> >>>>> and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or >> >>>> other >> >>>>> Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> John T. Burridge >> >>>>> PO Box 14444 >> >>>>> East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 >> >>>>> USA >> >>>>> +1(401)435-6111 >> >>>>> +1(401)435-4880 >> >>>>> birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca >> >>>>> burridge AT cox.net >> >>>>> >> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >>>>> >> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >>>>> >> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> ------------------------------------ >> >>>> >> >>>> This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find >> >> out >> >>>> more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a >> member, >> >>>> please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: Tou Jing Yi <jytou85 AT gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 00:11:09 +0800

Dear Michael, They actually made up some words in order to use to name birds and other creatures not native to China or not known in ancient Chinese, so its not surprising to find some of these words that you can't find in any proper dictionary. é´— is a traditional written form, not even a modern simplified form. The Taiwanese had a typing system that allows them to invent words (they are still using traditional written form unlike the mainland China which practices simplified form, HK also uses traditional written form, I am not aware if they switch it to simplified in their education system after merging back into China or not). This capability of inventing words by Taiwanese especially for human names, can also be used to invent words for other stuff, so sometimes probably just a modern make up. é´— for example is made up by the character of ç«‹ (stand) and é¸Ÿ (bird), so literally a bird that stands? I had seen the word used to refer to Kookaburra before as ç¬‘é´— or laughing "motmot"? but that is not an official usage. Kingfishers do get their own specific term of ç¿ é¸Ÿ. Thanks. On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Michael Rank wrote: > Excellent, now I know how to say Little Chachalaca in Chinese (or rather > the Ch characters) but it doesn't give Pinyin which I think John is also > looking for... It gives the Chinese for aforesaid LC as "little crowned > pheasant" which seems a bit confusing.... It's apparent a kind of motmot, > all other members of this family include in the name the very obscure > character é´—which isn't in most dictionaries. Fascinating stuff. > > Michael > > On 28 May 2013, at 15:24, Tou Jing Yi wrote: > > > Dear John, > > > > Try this website: > > > > http://www.cnbird.org.cn/world/first.htm > > > > You can search either by English names (part of the name such as "toucan" > > is good enough) or parts of scientific name, both generic and specific > > names, but be aware that a few of them are with typo in the English name > > and whether or not there is a hyphen or space is critical as the search > is > > exact search, so you may need to try a few times on some species. > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Desmond Allen > wrote: > > > >> John, > >> I just did a quickweb search and found this: > >> > >> > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwLbmLpGzCPuMzVjOWYwNzMtOWYxZC00YmUwLWFiYmQtMTA2YzUzNThkNGE2/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1 > >> If you download the pdf you will get a list of Chinese birds in English, > >> Latin and ä¸æ–‡â€¦. > >> > >> Des > >> > >> On 28 May 2013, at 13:13, "John" wrote: > >> > >>> Unfortunately I have only the hard-cover paper edition of Prof. Zheng's > >> list and thus it would be impossible for me to copy the Chinese > characters. > >> JTB > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: Tou Jing Yi > >>> To: John > >>> Cc: Desmond Allen ; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > >>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:05 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > >>> > >>> Dear all, > >>> > >>> The full list of Chinese names are available but not with the > >>> transliterations, but with a bit of hard work, one can copy the Chinese > >>> characters of the desired term and place into Google Translate that > will > >>> not only give you the transliterations but also help you pronounce it. > >>> Thanks. > >>> > >>> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 4:48 AM, John wrote: > >>> > >>>> The link is greatly appreciated, Desmond, but all it gives on an > >> attempt to > >>>> enter an English or Latin name and clicked for conversion to Pinyin is > >>>> "UNDEFINED". > >>>> > >>>> Regards, John > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Desmond Allen" > >>>> To: "John" > >>>> Cc: "Geoff Carey" ; "'Phil Straw'" < > >> philip.straw AT awsg.org.au > >>>>> ; > >>>> > >>>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 2:07 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> If you have a text file with the bird names in Chinese, try > >>>> http://www.cozywebsite.com/dictionary/compose/# > >>>> This can output in pinyin with tone markers. > >>>> cheers > >>>> Des > >>>> > >>>> On 27 May 2013, at 14:09, "John" wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Precisely -- "where the language is being taught". Since the whole > >> idea > >>>> of > >>>>> transliterations is to convey to non-speakers of the language at > >> issue, > >>>>> whether students or foreign birders, some close semblance of the > >>>>> pronunciation in Latin letters, tone designations are a necessity in > >> this > >>>>> case just as for the students. > >>>>> > >>>>> This is not a problem where alphabets, whether single phonemes > >> (Russian, > >>>>> Bulgarian) or syllables (Japanese Katakana, Cree) are concerned. > >> However, > >>>>> diacritical marks are vital where there is either no connection at > >> all > >>>>> between the written symbol and the pronunciation, or if even an > >> element > >>>> is > >>>>> unwritten. Non-speakers of Hebrew would be at a loss without the > >> vowel > >>>>> points, which serve an analogous purpose to the tone marks in > >> Chinese. > >>>>> > >>>>> Even within languages using the Latin alphabet, dicritical marks > >> should > >>>>> not be ignored. For instance, in Spanish one would not want to omit > >> the > >>>>> tilde from the common word aÃ±o because that would change a year into > >>>>> an...... well, you know. > >>>>> > >>>>> However, I would be grateful for a transliteration of Prof. Zheng's > >> work > >>>>> even without the tones > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers, > >>>>> John > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: Geoff Carey > >>>>> To: 'John' ; 'Phil Straw' > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:36 PM > >>>>> Subject: RE: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > >>>>> > >>>>> I wouldn't worry about tone designations. One almost never sees them, > >>>>> except where the language is being taught. Given that the context in > >>>> which > >>>>> these names are used will help enormously, I think inaccurate tones > >> is > >>>> not > >>>>> an issue. > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> Geoff Carey > >>>>> > >>>>> Director, AEC Ltd. > >>>>> > >>>>> From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > >>>>> [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John > >>>>> Sent: 26 May 2013 09:45 > >>>>> To: Phil Straw > >>>>> Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > >>>>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > >>>>> > >>>>> Maybe that was me, Phil -- Terry is my nickname and I am known by > >> that > >>>>> name to my Canadian university chums and at my UK publishers, > >> Cambridge > >>>>> Scholars in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. > >>>>> > >>>>> As my earlier e-mail indicated, the MacKinnon / Phillipps book is > >>>>> obviously not correctly / usefully transliterated as they have no > >> tone > >>>>> designations at all, either the older type with the superscript > >> numbers, > >>>>> or the current version using diacritical accents. And I have heard > >> that > >>>> it > >>>>> is not very accurate from an ornithological standpoint as well. > >>>>> > >>>>> Best regards > >>>>> John > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: Phil Straw > >>>>> To: John > >>>>> Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:50 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > >>>>> > >>>>> john, > >>>>> > >>>>> A field guide to the Birds of China (Chinese version) by John > >> MacKinnon > >>>>> and Karen Phillipps has all the names in English, Chinese and > >> pinyin. It > >>>>> is much cheaper than the English version I bought it in Beijing in > >> 2002 > >>>>> for $40 > >>>>> Terry (I forgot his surname) tried to get help with transliteration > >> of > >>>>> birds of the world but did not get as far as he would have liked. > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers, > >>>>> Phil > >>>>> > >>>>> Phil Straw > >>>>> Vice Chairman > >>>>> Australasian Wader Studies Group of BirdLife Australia > >>>>> philip.straw AT awsg.org.au > >>>>> www.awsg.org.au > >>>>> Tel: 61 2 9597 7765 > >>>>> Mob: 0411 249 075 > >>>>> > >>>>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > >>>>> > >>>>> On 26/05/2013, at 3:03 AM, "John" wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of > >> the > >>>>> Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the > >> Classification > >>>>> and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or > >>>> other > >>>>> Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. > >>>>> > >>>>> John T. Burridge > >>>>> PO Box 14444 > >>>>> East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 > >>>>> USA > >>>>> +1(401)435-6111 > >>>>> +1(401)435-4880 > >>>>> birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca > >>>>> burridge AT cox.net > >>>>> > >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>>> > >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>>> > >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find > >> out > >>>> more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, > >>>> please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: Michael Rank <rank AT mailbox.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 17:02:17 +0100

Excellent, now I know how to say Little Chachalaca in Chinese (or rather the Ch characters) but it doesn't give Pinyin which I think John is also looking for... It gives the Chinese for aforesaid LC as "little crowned pheasant" which seems a bit confusing.... It's apparent a kind of motmot, all other members of this family include in the name the very obscure character é´—which isn't in most dictionaries. Fascinating stuff. Michael On 28 May 2013, at 15:24, Tou Jing Yi wrote: > Dear John, > > Try this website: > > http://www.cnbird.org.cn/world/first.htm > > You can search either by English names (part of the name such as "toucan" > is good enough) or parts of scientific name, both generic and specific > names, but be aware that a few of them are with typo in the English name > and whether or not there is a hyphen or space is critical as the search is > exact search, so you may need to try a few times on some species. > > Thanks. > > > > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Desmond Allen wrote: > >> John, >> I just did a quickweb search and found this: >> >> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwLbmLpGzCPuMzVjOWYwNzMtOWYxZC00YmUwLWFiYmQtMTA2YzUzNThkNGE2/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1 >> If you download the pdf you will get a list of Chinese birds in English, >> Latin and ä¸æ–‡â€¦. >> >> Des >> >> On 28 May 2013, at 13:13, "John" wrote: >> >>> Unfortunately I have only the hard-cover paper edition of Prof. Zheng's >> list and thus it would be impossible for me to copy the Chinese characters. >> JTB >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Tou Jing Yi >>> To: John >>> Cc: Desmond Allen ; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com >>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:05 PM >>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> The full list of Chinese names are available but not with the >>> transliterations, but with a bit of hard work, one can copy the Chinese >>> characters of the desired term and place into Google Translate that will >>> not only give you the transliterations but also help you pronounce it. >>> Thanks. >>> >>> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 4:48 AM, John wrote: >>> >>>> The link is greatly appreciated, Desmond, but all it gives on an >> attempt to >>>> enter an English or Latin name and clicked for conversion to Pinyin is >>>> "UNDEFINED". >>>> >>>> Regards, John >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Desmond Allen" >>>> To: "John" >>>> Cc: "Geoff Carey" ; "'Phil Straw'" < >> philip.straw AT awsg.org.au >>>>> ; >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 2:07 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >>>> >>>> >>>> If you have a text file with the bird names in Chinese, try >>>> http://www.cozywebsite.com/dictionary/compose/# >>>> This can output in pinyin with tone markers. >>>> cheers >>>> Des >>>> >>>> On 27 May 2013, at 14:09, "John" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Precisely -- "where the language is being taught". Since the whole >> idea >>>> of >>>>> transliterations is to convey to non-speakers of the language at >> issue, >>>>> whether students or foreign birders, some close semblance of the >>>>> pronunciation in Latin letters, tone designations are a necessity in >> this >>>>> case just as for the students. >>>>> >>>>> This is not a problem where alphabets, whether single phonemes >> (Russian, >>>>> Bulgarian) or syllables (Japanese Katakana, Cree) are concerned. >> However, >>>>> diacritical marks are vital where there is either no connection at >> all >>>>> between the written symbol and the pronunciation, or if even an >> element >>>> is >>>>> unwritten. Non-speakers of Hebrew would be at a loss without the >> vowel >>>>> points, which serve an analogous purpose to the tone marks in >> Chinese. >>>>> >>>>> Even within languages using the Latin alphabet, dicritical marks >> should >>>>> not be ignored. For instance, in Spanish one would not want to omit >> the >>>>> tilde from the common word aÃ±o because that would change a year into >>>>> an...... well, you know. >>>>> >>>>> However, I would be grateful for a transliteration of Prof. Zheng's >> work >>>>> even without the tones >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Geoff Carey >>>>> To: 'John' ; 'Phil Straw' >>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:36 PM >>>>> Subject: RE: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >>>>> >>>>> I wouldn't worry about tone designations. One almost never sees them, >>>>> except where the language is being taught. Given that the context in >>>> which >>>>> these names are used will help enormously, I think inaccurate tones >> is >>>> not >>>>> an issue. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Geoff Carey >>>>> >>>>> Director, AEC Ltd. >>>>> >>>>> From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com >>>>> [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John >>>>> Sent: 26 May 2013 09:45 >>>>> To: Phil Straw >>>>> Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >>>>> >>>>> Maybe that was me, Phil -- Terry is my nickname and I am known by >> that >>>>> name to my Canadian university chums and at my UK publishers, >> Cambridge >>>>> Scholars in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. >>>>> >>>>> As my earlier e-mail indicated, the MacKinnon / Phillipps book is >>>>> obviously not correctly / usefully transliterated as they have no >> tone >>>>> designations at all, either the older type with the superscript >> numbers, >>>>> or the current version using diacritical accents. And I have heard >> that >>>> it >>>>> is not very accurate from an ornithological standpoint as well. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Phil Straw >>>>> To: John >>>>> Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com >>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:50 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names >>>>> >>>>> john, >>>>> >>>>> A field guide to the Birds of China (Chinese version) by John >> MacKinnon >>>>> and Karen Phillipps has all the names in English, Chinese and >> pinyin. It >>>>> is much cheaper than the English version I bought it in Beijing in >> 2002 >>>>> for $40 >>>>> Terry (I forgot his surname) tried to get help with transliteration >> of >>>>> birds of the world but did not get as far as he would have liked. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Phil >>>>> >>>>> Phil Straw >>>>> Vice Chairman >>>>> Australasian Wader Studies Group of BirdLife Australia >>>>> philip.straw AT awsg.org.au >>>>> www.awsg.org.au >>>>> Tel: 61 2 9597 7765 >>>>> Mob: 0411 249 075 >>>>> >>>>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >>>>> >>>>> On 26/05/2013, at 3:03 AM, "John" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of >> the >>>>> Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the >> Classification >>>>> and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or >>>> other >>>>> Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> John T. Burridge >>>>> PO Box 14444 >>>>> East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 >>>>> USA >>>>> +1(401)435-6111 >>>>> +1(401)435-4880 >>>>> birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca >>>>> burridge AT cox.net >>>>> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>> >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find >> out >>>> more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, >>>> please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: Tou Jing Yi <jytou85 AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 22:24:04 +0800

Dear John, Try this website: http://www.cnbird.org.cn/world/first.htm You can search either by English names (part of the name such as "toucan" is good enough) or parts of scientific name, both generic and specific names, but be aware that a few of them are with typo in the English name and whether or not there is a hyphen or space is critical as the search is exact search, so you may need to try a few times on some species. Thanks. On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Desmond Allen wrote: > John, > I just did a quickweb search and found this: > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwLbmLpGzCPuMzVjOWYwNzMtOWYxZC00YmUwLWFiYmQtMTA2YzUzNThkNGE2/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1 > If you download the pdf you will get a list of Chinese birds in English, > Latin and ä¸æ–‡â€¦. > > Des > > On 28 May 2013, at 13:13, "John" wrote: > > > Unfortunately I have only the hard-cover paper edition of Prof. Zheng's > list and thus it would be impossible for me to copy the Chinese characters. > JTB > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tou Jing Yi > > To: John > > Cc: Desmond Allen ; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:05 PM > > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > Dear all, > > > > The full list of Chinese names are available but not with the > > transliterations, but with a bit of hard work, one can copy the Chinese > > characters of the desired term and place into Google Translate that will > > not only give you the transliterations but also help you pronounce it. > > Thanks. > > > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 4:48 AM, John wrote: > > > > > The link is greatly appreciated, Desmond, but all it gives on an > attempt to > > > enter an English or Latin name and clicked for conversion to Pinyin is > > > "UNDEFINED". > > > > > > Regards, John > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Desmond Allen" > > > To: "John" > > > Cc: "Geoff Carey" ; "'Phil Straw'" < > philip.straw AT awsg.org.au > > > >; > > > > > > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 2:07 PM > > > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > > > > > > If you have a text file with the bird names in Chinese, try > > > http://www.cozywebsite.com/dictionary/compose/# > > > This can output in pinyin with tone markers. > > > cheers > > > Des > > > > > > On 27 May 2013, at 14:09, "John" wrote: > > > > > > > Precisely -- "where the language is being taught". Since the whole > idea > > > of > > > > transliterations is to convey to non-speakers of the language at > issue, > > > > whether students or foreign birders, some close semblance of the > > > > pronunciation in Latin letters, tone designations are a necessity in > this > > > > case just as for the students. > > > > > > > > This is not a problem where alphabets, whether single phonemes > (Russian, > > > > Bulgarian) or syllables (Japanese Katakana, Cree) are concerned. > However, > > > > diacritical marks are vital where there is either no connection at > all > > > > between the written symbol and the pronunciation, or if even an > element > > > is > > > > unwritten. Non-speakers of Hebrew would be at a loss without the > vowel > > > > points, which serve an analogous purpose to the tone marks in > Chinese. > > > > > > > > Even within languages using the Latin alphabet, dicritical marks > should > > > > not be ignored. For instance, in Spanish one would not want to omit > the > > > > tilde from the common word aÃ±o because that would change a year into > > > > an...... well, you know. > > > > > > > > However, I would be grateful for a transliteration of Prof. Zheng's > work > > > > even without the tones > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > John > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Geoff Carey > > > > To: 'John' ; 'Phil Straw' > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:36 PM > > > > Subject: RE: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > > > > > I wouldn't worry about tone designations. One almost never sees them, > > > > except where the language is being taught. Given that the context in > > > which > > > > these names are used will help enormously, I think inaccurate tones > is > > > not > > > > an issue. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Geoff Carey > > > > > > > > Director, AEC Ltd. > > > > > > > > From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > > > [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John > > > > Sent: 26 May 2013 09:45 > > > > To: Phil Straw > > > > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > > > > > Maybe that was me, Phil -- Terry is my nickname and I am known by > that > > > > name to my Canadian university chums and at my UK publishers, > Cambridge > > > > Scholars in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. > > > > > > > > As my earlier e-mail indicated, the MacKinnon / Phillipps book is > > > > obviously not correctly / usefully transliterated as they have no > tone > > > > designations at all, either the older type with the superscript > numbers, > > > > or the current version using diacritical accents. And I have heard > that > > > it > > > > is not very accurate from an ornithological standpoint as well. > > > > > > > > Best regards > > > > John > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Phil Straw > > > > To: John > > > > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:50 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > > > > > john, > > > > > > > > A field guide to the Birds of China (Chinese version) by John > MacKinnon > > > > and Karen Phillipps has all the names in English, Chinese and > pinyin. It > > > > is much cheaper than the English version I bought it in Beijing in > 2002 > > > > for $40 > > > > Terry (I forgot his surname) tried to get help with transliteration > of > > > > birds of the world but did not get as far as he would have liked. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > Phil Straw > > > > Vice Chairman > > > > Australasian Wader Studies Group of BirdLife Australia > > > > philip.straw AT awsg.org.au > > > > www.awsg.org.au > > > > Tel: 61 2 9597 7765 > > > > Mob: 0411 249 075 > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > > > > > On 26/05/2013, at 3:03 AM, "John" wrote: > > > > > > > > Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of > the > > > > Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the > Classification > > > > and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or > > > other > > > > Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. > > > > > > > > John T. Burridge > > > > PO Box 14444 > > > > East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 > > > > USA > > > > +1(401)435-6111 > > > > +1(401)435-4880 > > > > birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca > > > > burridge AT cox.net > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find > out > > > more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, > > > please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: Desmond Allen <rhabdornis AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 13:57:55 +0100

John, I just did a quickweb search and found this: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwLbmLpGzCPuMzVjOWYwNzMtOWYxZC00YmUwLWFiYmQtMTA2YzUzNThkNGE2/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1 If you download the pdf you will get a list of Chinese birds in English, Latin and ä¸æ–‡â€¦. Des On 28 May 2013, at 13:13, "John" wrote: > Unfortunately I have only the hard-cover paper edition of Prof. Zheng's list and thus it would be impossible for me to copy the Chinese characters. JTB > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tou Jing Yi > To: John > Cc: Desmond Allen ; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:05 PM > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > Dear all, > > The full list of Chinese names are available but not with the > transliterations, but with a bit of hard work, one can copy the Chinese > characters of the desired term and place into Google Translate that will > not only give you the transliterations but also help you pronounce it. > Thanks. > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 4:48 AM, John wrote: > > > The link is greatly appreciated, Desmond, but all it gives on an attempt to > > enter an English or Latin name and clicked for conversion to Pinyin is > > "UNDEFINED". > > > > Regards, John > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Desmond Allen" > > To: "John" > > Cc: "Geoff Carey" ; "'Phil Straw'" > >; > > > > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 2:07 PM > > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > > > If you have a text file with the bird names in Chinese, try > > http://www.cozywebsite.com/dictionary/compose/# > > This can output in pinyin with tone markers. > > cheers > > Des > > > > On 27 May 2013, at 14:09, "John" wrote: > > > > > Precisely -- "where the language is being taught". Since the whole idea > > of > > > transliterations is to convey to non-speakers of the language at issue, > > > whether students or foreign birders, some close semblance of the > > > pronunciation in Latin letters, tone designations are a necessity in this > > > case just as for the students. > > > > > > This is not a problem where alphabets, whether single phonemes (Russian, > > > Bulgarian) or syllables (Japanese Katakana, Cree) are concerned. However, > > > diacritical marks are vital where there is either no connection at all > > > between the written symbol and the pronunciation, or if even an element > > is > > > unwritten. Non-speakers of Hebrew would be at a loss without the vowel > > > points, which serve an analogous purpose to the tone marks in Chinese. > > > > > > Even within languages using the Latin alphabet, dicritical marks should > > > not be ignored. For instance, in Spanish one would not want to omit the > > > tilde from the common word aÃ±o because that would change a year into > > > an...... well, you know. > > > > > > However, I would be grateful for a transliteration of Prof. Zheng's work > > > even without the tones > > > > > > Cheers, > > > John > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Geoff Carey > > > To: 'John' ; 'Phil Straw' > > > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:36 PM > > > Subject: RE: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > > > I wouldn't worry about tone designations. One almost never sees them, > > > except where the language is being taught. Given that the context in > > which > > > these names are used will help enormously, I think inaccurate tones is > > not > > > an issue. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Geoff Carey > > > > > > Director, AEC Ltd. > > > > > > From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John > > > Sent: 26 May 2013 09:45 > > > To: Phil Straw > > > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > > > Maybe that was me, Phil -- Terry is my nickname and I am known by that > > > name to my Canadian university chums and at my UK publishers, Cambridge > > > Scholars in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. > > > > > > As my earlier e-mail indicated, the MacKinnon / Phillipps book is > > > obviously not correctly / usefully transliterated as they have no tone > > > designations at all, either the older type with the superscript numbers, > > > or the current version using diacritical accents. And I have heard that > > it > > > is not very accurate from an ornithological standpoint as well. > > > > > > Best regards > > > John > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Phil Straw > > > To: John > > > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:50 PM > > > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > > > john, > > > > > > A field guide to the Birds of China (Chinese version) by John MacKinnon > > > and Karen Phillipps has all the names in English, Chinese and pinyin. It > > > is much cheaper than the English version I bought it in Beijing in 2002 > > > for $40 > > > Terry (I forgot his surname) tried to get help with transliteration of > > > birds of the world but did not get as far as he would have liked. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Phil > > > > > > Phil Straw > > > Vice Chairman > > > Australasian Wader Studies Group of BirdLife Australia > > > philip.straw AT awsg.org.au > > > www.awsg.org.au > > > Tel: 61 2 9597 7765 > > > Mob: 0411 249 075 > > > > > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > > > On 26/05/2013, at 3:03 AM, "John" wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of the > > > Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the Classification > > > and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or > > other > > > Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. > > > > > > John T. Burridge > > > PO Box 14444 > > > East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 > > > USA > > > +1(401)435-6111 > > > +1(401)435-4880 > > > birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca > > > burridge AT cox.net > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out > > more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, > > please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: "John" <burridge AT cox.net>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 08:13:46 -0400

Unfortunately I have only the hard-cover paper edition of Prof. Zheng's list and thus it would be impossible for me to copy the Chinese characters. JTB ----- Original Message ----- From: Tou Jing Yi To: John Cc: Desmond Allen ; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:05 PM Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names Dear all, The full list of Chinese names are available but not with the transliterations, but with a bit of hard work, one can copy the Chinese characters of the desired term and place into Google Translate that will not only give you the transliterations but also help you pronounce it. Thanks. On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 4:48 AM, John wrote: > The link is greatly appreciated, Desmond, but all it gives on an attempt to > enter an English or Latin name and clicked for conversion to Pinyin is > "UNDEFINED". > > Regards, John > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Desmond Allen" > To: "John" > Cc: "Geoff Carey" ; "'Phil Straw'" >; > > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 2:07 PM > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > If you have a text file with the bird names in Chinese, try > http://www.cozywebsite.com/dictionary/compose/# > This can output in pinyin with tone markers. > cheers > Des > > On 27 May 2013, at 14:09, "John" wrote: > > > Precisely -- "where the language is being taught". Since the whole idea > of > > transliterations is to convey to non-speakers of the language at issue, > > whether students or foreign birders, some close semblance of the > > pronunciation in Latin letters, tone designations are a necessity in this > > case just as for the students. > > > > This is not a problem where alphabets, whether single phonemes (Russian, > > Bulgarian) or syllables (Japanese Katakana, Cree) are concerned. However, > > diacritical marks are vital where there is either no connection at all > > between the written symbol and the pronunciation, or if even an element > is > > unwritten. Non-speakers of Hebrew would be at a loss without the vowel > > points, which serve an analogous purpose to the tone marks in Chinese. > > > > Even within languages using the Latin alphabet, dicritical marks should > > not be ignored. For instance, in Spanish one would not want to omit the > > tilde from the common word año because that would change a year into > > an...... well, you know. > > > > However, I would be grateful for a transliteration of Prof. Zheng's work > > even without the tones > > > > Cheers, > > John > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Geoff Carey > > To: 'John' ; 'Phil Straw' > > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:36 PM > > Subject: RE: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > I wouldn't worry about tone designations. One almost never sees them, > > except where the language is being taught. Given that the context in > which > > these names are used will help enormously, I think inaccurate tones is > not > > an issue. > > > > Regards, > > > > Geoff Carey > > > > Director, AEC Ltd. > > > > From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John > > Sent: 26 May 2013 09:45 > > To: Phil Straw > > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > Maybe that was me, Phil -- Terry is my nickname and I am known by that > > name to my Canadian university chums and at my UK publishers, Cambridge > > Scholars in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. > > > > As my earlier e-mail indicated, the MacKinnon / Phillipps book is > > obviously not correctly / usefully transliterated as they have no tone > > designations at all, either the older type with the superscript numbers, > > or the current version using diacritical accents. And I have heard that > it > > is not very accurate from an ornithological standpoint as well. > > > > Best regards > > John > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Phil Straw > > To: John > > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:50 PM > > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > john, > > > > A field guide to the Birds of China (Chinese version) by John MacKinnon > > and Karen Phillipps has all the names in English, Chinese and pinyin. It > > is much cheaper than the English version I bought it in Beijing in 2002 > > for $40 > > Terry (I forgot his surname) tried to get help with transliteration of > > birds of the world but did not get as far as he would have liked. > > > > Cheers, > > Phil > > > > Phil Straw > > Vice Chairman > > Australasian Wader Studies Group of BirdLife Australia > > philip.straw AT awsg.org.au > > www.awsg.org.au > > Tel: 61 2 9597 7765 > > Mob: 0411 249 075 > > > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > On 26/05/2013, at 3:03 AM, "John" wrote: > > > > Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of the > > Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the Classification > > and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or > other > > Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. > > > > John T. Burridge > > PO Box 14444 > > East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 > > USA > > +1(401)435-6111 > > +1(401)435-4880 > > birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca > > burridge AT cox.net > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out > more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, > please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Hiring Indonesians for online bird ID
From: Hock <ooichinhock AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 11:37:37 +0800

Hi Kevin n all, Very good n unique project ! Congrats ! When is this project starting ? Need calls recorded in the past in Jambi ? Why not include calls of other wildlife too ? How can Volunteers outside Indonesia help online? In the field? There are many bird sound experts here in OB who can help n speak Malay!? Xeno-canto sounds team can help ? Must be Indonesians or just need Indonesian speaking to be hired ?:) Tk, Ooi Chin Hock. 60122357123 iPhone On 28 May, 2013, at 9:26, Kevin wrote: (versi bahasa Indonesia dibawah) We are looking for bird call identifiers for our ecological research project called SoundEfforts We are recording birds in 44 different locations situated in different habitats: primary forest, secondary forest, bush swamp, jungle rubber, rubber and oil palm plantation, all over the province of Jambi, Sumatra. We hire Indonesian nationals who can identify Sumatran bird calls and tag them online on our prototype website SoundEfforts (http://vmext21-180.gwdg.de , user: XCtest, password: XCtest). We also welcome comments on the website and people who want to contribute to the project. In a first step, we need to know who is interested before defining precise terms of participation. Please contact me at kdarras AT gwdg.de Thank you, *** Kami mencari pengenal suara burung untuk proyek penelitian kami "SoundEfforts". Kami sedang merekam suara burung selama satu tahun di 44 lokasi yang berbeda: hutan primer, sekunder, rawa belukar, hutan karet, kebun karet dan sawit, tersebar di provinsi Jambi, Sumatera. Kami mempekerjakan orang indonesia yang mampu mengenal suara burung darat Sumatera dan menandai suara itu di website kami SoundEfforts (http://vmext21-180.gwdg.de , user: XCtest, password: XCtest). Kami juga menyelamatdatangi saran tentang websitenya dan orang yang ingin membantu di proyek. Sebelumnya, kami perlu tahu siapa saja yang tertarik, silakan hubungi kami di kdarras AT gwdg.de. Terima kasih, Kevin Darras from EFForTS (http://www.uni-goettingen.de/en/412118.html ) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Indonesian bird trade
From: Gerard Brett <gerard.brett58 AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 10:27:33 +0700

Readers may be interested in this article about the wider ecological situation in Indonesia, specifically about deforestation, recently published in the UK's Guardian. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/26/sumatra-borneo-deforestation-tigers-palm-oil GB ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: Tou Jing Yi <jytou85 AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 11:05:01 +0800

Dear all, The full list of Chinese names are available but not with the transliterations, but with a bit of hard work, one can copy the Chinese characters of the desired term and place into Google Translate that will not only give you the transliterations but also help you pronounce it. Thanks. On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 4:48 AM, John wrote: > The link is greatly appreciated, Desmond, but all it gives on an attempt to > enter an English or Latin name and clicked for conversion to Pinyin is > "UNDEFINED". > > Regards, John > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Desmond Allen" > To: "John" > Cc: "Geoff Carey" ; "'Phil Straw'" >; > > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 2:07 PM > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > If you have a text file with the bird names in Chinese, try > http://www.cozywebsite.com/dictionary/compose/# > This can output in pinyin with tone markers. > cheers > Des > > On 27 May 2013, at 14:09, "John" wrote: > > > Precisely -- "where the language is being taught". Since the whole idea > of > > transliterations is to convey to non-speakers of the language at issue, > > whether students or foreign birders, some close semblance of the > > pronunciation in Latin letters, tone designations are a necessity in this > > case just as for the students. > > > > This is not a problem where alphabets, whether single phonemes (Russian, > > Bulgarian) or syllables (Japanese Katakana, Cree) are concerned. However, > > diacritical marks are vital where there is either no connection at all > > between the written symbol and the pronunciation, or if even an element > is > > unwritten. Non-speakers of Hebrew would be at a loss without the vowel > > points, which serve an analogous purpose to the tone marks in Chinese. > > > > Even within languages using the Latin alphabet, dicritical marks should > > not be ignored. For instance, in Spanish one would not want to omit the > > tilde from the common word año because that would change a year into > > an...... well, you know. > > > > However, I would be grateful for a transliteration of Prof. Zheng's work > > even without the tones > > > > Cheers, > > John > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Geoff Carey > > To: 'John' ; 'Phil Straw' > > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:36 PM > > Subject: RE: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > I wouldn't worry about tone designations. One almost never sees them, > > except where the language is being taught. Given that the context in > which > > these names are used will help enormously, I think inaccurate tones is > not > > an issue. > > > > Regards, > > > > Geoff Carey > > > > Director, AEC Ltd. > > > > From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John > > Sent: 26 May 2013 09:45 > > To: Phil Straw > > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > Maybe that was me, Phil -- Terry is my nickname and I am known by that > > name to my Canadian university chums and at my UK publishers, Cambridge > > Scholars in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. > > > > As my earlier e-mail indicated, the MacKinnon / Phillipps book is > > obviously not correctly / usefully transliterated as they have no tone > > designations at all, either the older type with the superscript numbers, > > or the current version using diacritical accents. And I have heard that > it > > is not very accurate from an ornithological standpoint as well. > > > > Best regards > > John > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Phil Straw > > To: John > > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:50 PM > > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > > > john, > > > > A field guide to the Birds of China (Chinese version) by John MacKinnon > > and Karen Phillipps has all the names in English, Chinese and pinyin. It > > is much cheaper than the English version I bought it in Beijing in 2002 > > for $40 > > Terry (I forgot his surname) tried to get help with transliteration of > > birds of the world but did not get as far as he would have liked. > > > > Cheers, > > Phil > > > > Phil Straw > > Vice Chairman > > Australasian Wader Studies Group of BirdLife Australia > > philip.straw AT awsg.org.au > > www.awsg.org.au > > Tel: 61 2 9597 7765 > > Mob: 0411 249 075 > > > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > On 26/05/2013, at 3:03 AM, "John" wrote: > > > > Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of the > > Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the Classification > > and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or > other > > Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. > > > > John T. Burridge > > PO Box 14444 > > East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 > > USA > > +1(401)435-6111 > > +1(401)435-4880 > > birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca > > burridge AT cox.net > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out > more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, > please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Indonesian bird trade
From: "Nick Brickle" <nick AT brickle.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 07:17:33 +0700

Hi all Sorry for the late entry! I believe the bird trade in Indonesia simply reflects a general attitude to wildlife among the public at large. This attitude prevails through government, the courts, state prosecutors, enforcement agencies, traders and the buying public. While success can (and is) achieved by localised enforcement agencies, such measures are largely sticking plaster fixes for the 'symptoms', not cures for the 'cause'. Addressing wildlife trade lacks political will because it lacks public support. This said, I do feel we should not be so judgemental as to condemn the historical attitudes of a nation. You really do not need to go back so far in history to find the same attitudes prevailing in places like the UK. Go back 50-100 years and it was perfectly acceptable to catch, keep, kill, stuff and collect bits of birds. As recently as 10 years ago we were still laughing at chimpanzees dressed as people on TV adverts selling teabags. Similar stories can be told for almost every 'western' country. Viewed like this the question becomes one of how to change the attitudes of the general public here in Indonesia? (and it is worth remembering that ironically people keep pet birds because they genuinely like birds!). I believe attitudes changed in the UK because of education and awareness; the work of groups like the RSPB, and probably even more so, of the BBC and David Attenborough, matched by a growing political will to change. There are also other examples from the UK of campaigns that have successfully changed general attitudes: two that come to mind are the 'keep Britain tidy' campaign (started in 1955 by the Women's Institute but which rolled into a huge government backed media campaign) and the campaign for HIV/AIDS awareness of the 1990s (major plot lines on national soap operas...major government support). So what can we do to help? As visiting birdwatchers you can do your best to promote local pride in wild birds. You can visit places, spend money, and put a value on wild birds. You can support local guides and birdwatchers that will continue to promote wild bird conservation when you are gone. You can support NGOs that do their best to educate, raise awareness and to improve enforcement (but don't condemn them for not being able to fix the problem singlehandedly). You can lobby your government to lobby the Indonesian government to respect treaties like CITES and CBD, and so on. However... the biggest force for change in Indonesia is the growing number of young Indonesians that fully understand the issues and are doing all they can to change public attitudes already. This is what will ultimately bring about change, and so if you can find a way to support them, then take it! Thanks Nick Brickle Bogor, Indonesia ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Hiring Indonesians for online bird ID
From: "Kevin" <darrask AT ymail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 01:26:18 -0000

(versi bahasa Indonesia dibawah) We are looking for bird call identifiers for our ecological research project called SoundEfforts We are recording birds in 44 different locations situated in different habitats: primary forest, secondary forest, bush swamp, jungle rubber, rubber and oil palm plantation, all over the province of Jambi, Sumatra. We hire Indonesian nationals who can identify Sumatran bird calls and tag them online on our prototype website SoundEfforts (http://vmext21-180.gwdg.de , user: XCtest, password: XCtest). We also welcome comments on the website and people who want to contribute to the project. In a first step, we need to know who is interested before defining precise terms of participation. Please contact me at kdarras AT gwdg.de Thank you, *** Kami mencari pengenal suara burung untuk proyek penelitian kami "SoundEfforts". Kami sedang merekam suara burung selama satu tahun di 44 lokasi yang berbeda: hutan primer, sekunder, rawa belukar, hutan karet, kebun karet dan sawit, tersebar di provinsi Jambi, Sumatera. Kami mempekerjakan orang indonesia yang mampu mengenal suara burung darat Sumatera dan menandai suara itu di website kami SoundEfforts (http://vmext21-180.gwdg.de , user: XCtest, password: XCtest). Kami juga menyelamatdatangi saran tentang websitenya dan orang yang ingin membantu di proyek. Sebelumnya, kami perlu tahu siapa saja yang tertarik, silakan hubungi kami di kdarras AT gwdg.de. Terima kasih, Kevin Darras from EFForTS (http://www.uni-goettingen.de/en/412118.html ) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: Desmond Allen <rhabdornis AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 19:07:12 +0100

If you have a text file with the bird names in Chinese, try http://www.cozywebsite.com/dictionary/compose/# This can output in pinyin with tone markers. cheers Des On 27 May 2013, at 14:09, "John" wrote: > Precisely -- "where the language is being taught". Since the whole idea of transliterations is to convey to non-speakers of the language at issue, whether students or foreign birders, some close semblance of the pronunciation in Latin letters, tone designations are a necessity in this case just as for the students. > > This is not a problem where alphabets, whether single phonemes (Russian, Bulgarian) or syllables (Japanese Katakana, Cree) are concerned. However, diacritical marks are vital where there is either no connection at all between the written symbol and the pronunciation, or if even an element is unwritten. Non-speakers of Hebrew would be at a loss without the vowel points, which serve an analogous purpose to the tone marks in Chinese. > > Even within languages using the Latin alphabet, dicritical marks should not be ignored. For instance, in Spanish one would not want to omit the tilde from the common word año because that would change a year into an...... well, you know. > > However, I would be grateful for a transliteration of Prof. Zheng's work even without the tones > > Cheers, > John > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Geoff Carey > To: 'John' ; 'Phil Straw' > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:36 PM > Subject: RE: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > I wouldn't worry about tone designations. One almost never sees them, except where the language is being taught. Given that the context in which these names are used will help enormously, I think inaccurate tones is not an issue. > > Regards, > > Geoff Carey > > Director, AEC Ltd. > > From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John > Sent: 26 May 2013 09:45 > To: Phil Straw > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > Maybe that was me, Phil -- Terry is my nickname and I am known by that name to my Canadian university chums and at my UK publishers, Cambridge Scholars in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. > > As my earlier e-mail indicated, the MacKinnon / Phillipps book is obviously not correctly / usefully transliterated as they have no tone designations at all, either the older type with the superscript numbers, or the current version using diacritical accents. And I have heard that it is not very accurate from an ornithological standpoint as well. > > Best regards > John > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Phil Straw > To: John > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:50 PM > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > john, > > A field guide to the Birds of China (Chinese version) by John MacKinnon and Karen Phillipps has all the names in English, Chinese and pinyin. It is much cheaper than the English version I bought it in Beijing in 2002 for $40 > Terry (I forgot his surname) tried to get help with transliteration of birds of the world but did not get as far as he would have liked. > > Cheers, > Phil > > Phil Straw > Vice Chairman > Australasian Wader Studies Group of BirdLife Australia > philip.straw AT awsg.org.au > www.awsg.org.au > Tel: 61 2 9597 7765 > Mob: 0411 249 075 > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > On 26/05/2013, at 3:03 AM, "John" wrote: > > Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of the Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the Classification and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or other Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. > > John T. Burridge > PO Box 14444 > East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 > USA > +1(401)435-6111 > +1(401)435-4880 > birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca > burridge AT cox.net > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: "John" <burridge AT cox.net>
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 16:48:18 -0400

The link is greatly appreciated, Desmond, but all it gives on an attempt to enter an English or Latin name and clicked for conversion to Pinyin is "UNDEFINED". Regards, John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Desmond Allen" To: "John" Cc: "Geoff Carey" ; "'Phil Straw'" ; Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names If you have a text file with the bird names in Chinese, try http://www.cozywebsite.com/dictionary/compose/# This can output in pinyin with tone markers. cheers Des On 27 May 2013, at 14:09, "John" wrote: > Precisely -- "where the language is being taught". Since the whole idea of > transliterations is to convey to non-speakers of the language at issue, > whether students or foreign birders, some close semblance of the > pronunciation in Latin letters, tone designations are a necessity in this > case just as for the students. > > This is not a problem where alphabets, whether single phonemes (Russian, > Bulgarian) or syllables (Japanese Katakana, Cree) are concerned. However, > diacritical marks are vital where there is either no connection at all > between the written symbol and the pronunciation, or if even an element is > unwritten. Non-speakers of Hebrew would be at a loss without the vowel > points, which serve an analogous purpose to the tone marks in Chinese. > > Even within languages using the Latin alphabet, dicritical marks should > not be ignored. For instance, in Spanish one would not want to omit the > tilde from the common word año because that would change a year into > an...... well, you know. > > However, I would be grateful for a transliteration of Prof. Zheng's work > even without the tones > > Cheers, > John > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Geoff Carey > To: 'John' ; 'Phil Straw' > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:36 PM > Subject: RE: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > I wouldn't worry about tone designations. One almost never sees them, > except where the language is being taught. Given that the context in which > these names are used will help enormously, I think inaccurate tones is not > an issue. > > Regards, > > Geoff Carey > > Director, AEC Ltd. > > From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John > Sent: 26 May 2013 09:45 > To: Phil Straw > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > Maybe that was me, Phil -- Terry is my nickname and I am known by that > name to my Canadian university chums and at my UK publishers, Cambridge > Scholars in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. > > As my earlier e-mail indicated, the MacKinnon / Phillipps book is > obviously not correctly / usefully transliterated as they have no tone > designations at all, either the older type with the superscript numbers, > or the current version using diacritical accents. And I have heard that it > is not very accurate from an ornithological standpoint as well. > > Best regards > John > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Phil Straw > To: John > Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:50 PM > Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names > > john, > > A field guide to the Birds of China (Chinese version) by John MacKinnon > and Karen Phillipps has all the names in English, Chinese and pinyin. It > is much cheaper than the English version I bought it in Beijing in 2002 > for $40 > Terry (I forgot his surname) tried to get help with transliteration of > birds of the world but did not get as far as he would have liked. > > Cheers, > Phil > > Phil Straw > Vice Chairman > Australasian Wader Studies Group of BirdLife Australia > philip.straw AT awsg.org.au > www.awsg.org.au > Tel: 61 2 9597 7765 > Mob: 0411 249 075 > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > On 26/05/2013, at 3:03 AM, "John" wrote: > > Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of the > Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the Classification > and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or other > Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. > > John T. Burridge > PO Box 14444 > East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 > USA > +1(401)435-6111 > +1(401)435-4880 > birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca > burridge AT cox.net > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: Hock <ooichinhock AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 11:22:32 +0800

Yes ! Also as a regular and close jiran to Indonesia, below can be one of the best solution. I believe BirdLife Int. and BirdLife Indonesia is working on this, esp. in south Sumatra n Java ? How can we all help ? OBC ?:) Terimakasih to all for helping in this emergency, Ooi Chin Hock. 60122357123 iPhone On 27 May, 2013, at 5:52, "Crossland, Andrew" wrote: Just wading in here, I must say I think the only workable solution on these postings is the line of argument that David Sharp has presented (below)..... In the context of Indonesia, even if somehow you could get the politicians, national and local government officials, the police and army to suspend their dependence on corruption and make the elimination of the illegal bird trade their one and only priority, you'd be lucky to cut 20% of that activity. Why? Because Indonesians like having birds in cages hanging from a hook under the veranda. 8 out of 10 houses has at least one, some houses have dozens. And thousands upon thousands of people make a living from catching birds and selling them. Not to the international market, but to neighbours and people walking past in the street. And, aside from the thousands of people who catch birds to sell, there's thousands more that just enjoy walking around a patch of forest or stalking through a tapioca field, shooting birds randomly with an air rifle. catching stuff and killing stuff is a national past-time. It makes people happy. However, clearly both catching and killing birds are fads. But unfortunately they've been fads for a very long time. - back to someones earlier analogy of the cessation of smoking in pubs in England. Maybe in the UK, people stopped because laws were passed and the police enforced them? However, in my experience in New Zealand, these types of laws had a lesser effect - the greater effect was social pressure. The community had a change in mindset - smokers began to be treated as social pariahs, told openly that their habit of smoking was considered disgusting, was a personal weakeness, and was badly affecting the health of others, especially children. Subsequent to change in public sentiment against smoking, there remain a core group of grumpy old men who feel that society has cruelly dumped on them and turned their habit from being the height of cool in the 1950s to something forced into cold alley ways and roof tops in the 2010s', but to a younger generation the fact is now its simply not cool to smoke and many young people don't want friends or partners to smoke around them. So - back to Indonesia and the issue of trying to turn society against the bird trade. The grumpy old men are still probably going to do it no matter what (even if a tiny number end up becoming bird guides instead), but it may very well be possible to massively reduce the practise amongst younger generations, say the under 40s. Picking up on David's theme, the media and celebrities have enormous influence in Indonesia. And its cool amongst celebrities to be seen as the national champion of one cause or another. Already it has become cool amongst young people to love the environment, go hiking, go camping, even watching nature (look at the rise in indigenous ornithology in Indonesia in the last decade). A remarkable change has occurred there in the 20 yrs I've been regularly visiting. There's a lot of people on the verge of becoming "greenies". I suggest it is absolutely the right moment to somehow to develop an alliance between aid/lobby money and a TV writing/directing team to develop a popular TV series where some of those key messages around protection of wildlife and the evilness of the bird trade are portrayed. Use some currently popular actors, and interweave some important key messages into it. It might even make my Sumatran brother-in-law's teenage kids to talk their dad into not getting his army mates to bring him some ore birds of paradise from Papua when the 6 he's got now have died! cheers Andrew Crossland New Zealand ________________________________ From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013 8:15 p.m. To: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade Excuse my vigorous rhetoric but apathy and resignation is rampant. Current activities do have some effect but it's a drop in the ocean compared to what is needed and may even be counterproductive if it diverts time and effort from the only real solution. Law enforcement on the issue is surely a cosy dream. In Thailand, the police themselves have been fingered in elephant hunting. Not enough of the population of SE Asia care enough to force the politicians to force the police to do anything that is not directly related to the peoples' own immediate survival or prosperity. The only way it will seep in is if the glitterati spin the message. Here in Thailand I can see it working quite easily. The soaps, full of beautiful celebs, are on TV all evening every evening churning out oceans of drivel and are watched slavishly. The message could be slipped in here almost subliminally - for example that it's no longer cute to keep a Red-whiskered bulbul called Chokdee ('good luck') in a cage. The message could be simply that times have changed and it's now bad luck (or bad karma) to have such birds. The Thais are a superstitious lot and this would gradually have an effect. That's a start. We need global leadership, money and coordination on this. At the moment there doesn't seem to anyone around big enough to do it, but perhaps that's because the admittedly crass method of harnessing the popular media hasn't yet hit the agenda. David Sharp Bangkok From: Ronald Orenstein Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 6:06 AM To: David ; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade I agree with David's general point. However, the task he suggests is a far less easy one than he seems to imply. First of all, it is not true to suggest that conservation bodies (including NGOs) are not addressing issues of demand reduction and market education in eastern Asia. For some issues (such as the consumption of shark fin) programmes of this sort are beginning to have an effect. Colleagues of mine are embarking on similar programmes (involving bringing in celebrities such as basketball star Yao Ming) to address trade in ivory and rhinoceros horn in China and Vietnam. I suggest that it would be more productive to study (and assist) these programmes (including studying their failures) than to simply complain that no one is doing anything. Education and demand reduction programmes, like any other conservation effort, work best when those operating them fully understand the target markets, so that programmes can be designed that reach the right people and address them in ways that are likely to be convincing. Thanks to the work of TRAFFIC SE Asia and others we know a good deal about the mechanics of the SE Asian bird market; I suspect we know far less about the motives and knowledge of buyers, both in Indonesia and abroad. Bird markets are a widespread phenomenon in Asia, but I have seen few cultural studies of how they operate. For example - why are bird markets so popular in Indonesia, and in places like Hong Kong or Taiwan, but are comparatively rare in neighbouring Malaysia (I have never seen one in Sarawak, and keeping birds there does not seem to be a popular pastime)? It is also necessary to put the Indonesian bird trade into the context of general attitudes towards wildlife trade in Indonesia - telling people they should not buy wild birds may mean little in the context of a huge trade in Indonesian reptiles and other animals. All this is absolutely not a recipe for doing nothing or assuming that we cannot take action without more research. What we do need to do, though, is assess what groups (both international and local) are already trying to do in Indonesia and to what extent they need assistance. I suspect people on the ground may already know what needs to be done, and perhaps the first task is networking with them. Of course a much broader (and rather different) issue is the link between rampant environmental destruction and corruption and cronyism. This relates to wildlife trade in many ways, and for prestige items carrying high prices it is directly linked to buying patterns among the wealthy. This is crucial for ivory and rhino horn in eastern Asia, but is it as important for the bird trade in terms of buyer patterns? Which birds, say, are prestige purchases (Javan Hawk-Eagle, perhaps) as opposed to others bought for other reasons by people at lower income levels? We need action - but we need productive action. Ronald Orenstein 1825 Shady Creek Court Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2 Canada ronorenstein.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: David To: mailto:orientalbirding%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 3:33:36 PM Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade I'll keep saying this until one of our precious conservation bodies does something: the only way to prevent the unfettered economic rapine of the earth is not by whiny lobbying, not by pedantic scientific research, and not by frantic incubation schemes when it's already too late, but by changing public sensibilities. That's the ONLY way. In the long term, this needs to be done through the education system because children are most receptive to brain-washing (benign in this case). But there isn't time for that now. It needs to be done immediately through popular television with high-level celebrities drafted in, bringing the issue in the first place to public attention, then gradually to deeper understanding. It's a question of changing society's values. The message is simple: a world without nature isn't worth living in. People need to subscribe to these values like a new religion. Politics is behind economic growth, which is behind the destruction, and the only way to change politics is to change the people. David Sharp Bangkok [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ********************************************************************** This electronic email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. The views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the Christchurch City Council. If you are not the correct recipient of this email please advise the sender and delete. Christchurch City Council http://www.ccc.govt.nz ********************************************************************** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Indonesian bird trade
From: "Nick Brickle" <nick AT brickle.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 10:43:15 +0700

Hi all Sorry for the late entry! I believe the bird trade in Indonesia simply reflects a general attitude to wildlife among the public at large. This attitude prevails through government, the courts, state prosecutors, enforcement agencies, traders and the buying public. While success can (and is) achieved by localised enforcement agencies, such measures are largely sticking plaster fixes for the 'symptoms', not cures for the 'cause'. Addressing wildlife trade lacks political will because it lacks public support. This said, I do feel we should not be so judgemental as to condemn the historical attitudes of a nation. You really do not need to go back so far in history to find the same attitudes prevailing in places like the UK. Go back 50-100 years and it was perfectly acceptable to catch, keep, kill, stuff and collect bits of birds. As recently as 10 years ago we were still laughing at chimpanzees dressed as people on TV adverts selling teabags. Similar stories can be told for almost every 'western' country. Viewed like this the question becomes one of how to change the attitudes of the general public here in Indonesia? (and it is worth remembering that ironically people keep pet birds because they genuinely like birds!). I believe attitudes changed in the UK because of education and awareness; the work of groups like the RSPB, and probably even more so, of the BBC and David Attenborough, matched by a growing political will to change. There are also other examples from the UK of campaigns that have successfully changed general attitudes: two that come to mind are the 'keep Britain tidy' campaign (started in 1955 by the Women's Institute but which rolled into a huge government backed media campaign) and the campaign for HIV/AIDS awareness of the 1990s (major plot lines on national soap operas...major government support). So what can we do to help? As visiting birdwatchers you can do your best to promote local pride in wild birds. You can visit places, spend money, and put a value on wild birds. You can support local guides and birdwatchers that will continue to promote wild bird conservation when you are gone. You can support NGOs that do their best to educate, raise awareness and to improve enforcement (but don't condemn them for not being able to fix the problem singlehandedly). You can lobby your government to lobby the Indonesian government to respect treaties like CITES and CBD, and so on. However... the biggest force for change in Indonesia is the growing number of young Indonesians that fully understand the issues and are doing all they can to change public attitudes already. This is what will ultimately bring about change, and so if you can find a way to support them, then take it! Thanks Nick Brickle Bogor, Indonesia ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: "John" <burridge AT cox.net>
Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 23:49:38 -0400

No, Bee, I am not looking for a TRANSLATION at all, but a TRANSLITERATION of the Chinese characters. For instance in my Japanese volume I have both the Japanese in Katakana characters and the Latin alphabet so that people who do not speak Japanese can pronounce the names (approximately), for instance when they are asking a local Japanese about the birds. As an example, my Japanese list contains "ãƒ€ãƒãƒ§ã‚¦ Da chou" for the ostrich, Struthio camelus. But I would like to have in done in Chinese for the birds of the whole world (in other words, a transliteration of the Chinese characters in Professor Zheng's book). Best regards, John ----- Original Message ----- From: Bee Choo To: John Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:13 PM Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names Hi John, Are you looking for a translation from Chinese to English or is it the other way round. I've enclosed a list from English to Chinese for Birds of Southeast Asia (Craig Robson's book). A contact from China sent it to me. I do have another book of Chinese birds names with translation to English. I've to look for it, it is a rather old book published in China. Regards, Bee Choo Singapore ----- Original Message ----- From: John To: Michael Rank Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 3:49 AM Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names Thanks for your information, Micahel; even though it was rather disappointing it was greatly appreciated. A few years ago I was in contact with a fellow who was, I believe, if I can remember through an Alzheimer moment here, an Australian living in China (and the name Greg rattles around in my head) who operated a site called cjvlang.com (for Chinese-Japanese-Vietnamese), and from whom I obtained the transliterated names of Chinese birds in the older Pinyin system with the superscript numbers (as opposed to diacritical marks) for the tones. However, this site has been vastly changed and no longer as user-friendly. In any case its geographical basis is still limited to East Asia with some northward expansion into Mongolian (which I already have on file) and Russian (which I published in 2010). (Japanese, which presented no problems with transliteration, was published in 2012, my first venture away from European languages.) I also have the 2000 MacKinnon and Phillippe list, but I have heard by the grapevine that it is not reliable. In any case they give no indication of tone, neither the supersccript numbers nor the diacritical marks. Odd that such a list seems not not exist given the uptick in the tourism business for China, Taiwan, and Singapore (this last being virtually bilingual and with a superior educational system). John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Rank" To: "John" Cc: Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names No, I think it's very unlikely that this would be available anywhere but A Handbook of the Names of the Birds in China, also edited by Zheng, 1997, gives names in Chinese characters, transliteration, scientific, English, Russian, Japanese and Korean. It's for Chinese birds only and it seems to be out of print, although it is available on a Chinese auction site very cheaply http://bq.kongfz.com/detail_17039319/ But I think you would need a Chinese friend to get it for you.... Sorry I can't be of more help. Michael Rank On 25 May 2013, at 18:03, "John" wrote: > Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of the > Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the Classification > and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or other > Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. > > John T. Burridge > PO Box 14444 > East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 > USA > +1(401)435-6111 > +1(401)435-4880 > birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca > burridge AT cox.net > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out > more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, > please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: "John" <burridge AT cox.net>
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 09:09:21 -0400

Precisely -- "where the language is being taught". Since the whole idea of transliterations is to convey to non-speakers of the language at issue, whether students or foreign birders, some close semblance of the pronunciation in Latin letters, tone designations are a necessity in this case just as for the students. This is not a problem where alphabets, whether single phonemes (Russian, Bulgarian) or syllables (Japanese Katakana, Cree) are concerned. However, diacritical marks are vital where there is either no connection at all between the written symbol and the pronunciation, or if even an element is unwritten. Non-speakers of Hebrew would be at a loss without the vowel points, which serve an analogous purpose to the tone marks in Chinese. Even within languages using the Latin alphabet, dicritical marks should not be ignored. For instance, in Spanish one would not want to omit the tilde from the common word año because that would change a year into an...... well, you know. However, I would be grateful for a transliteration of Prof. Zheng's work even without the tones Cheers, John ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoff Carey To: 'John' ; 'Phil Straw' Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:36 PM Subject: RE: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names I wouldn't worry about tone designations. One almost never sees them, except where the language is being taught. Given that the context in which these names are used will help enormously, I think inaccurate tones is not an issue. Regards, Geoff Carey Director, AEC Ltd. From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Sent: 26 May 2013 09:45 To: Phil Straw Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names Maybe that was me, Phil -- Terry is my nickname and I am known by that name to my Canadian university chums and at my UK publishers, Cambridge Scholars in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. As my earlier e-mail indicated, the MacKinnon / Phillipps book is obviously not correctly / usefully transliterated as they have no tone designations at all, either the older type with the superscript numbers, or the current version using diacritical accents. And I have heard that it is not very accurate from an ornithological standpoint as well. Best regards John ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Straw To: John Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names john, A field guide to the Birds of China (Chinese version) by John MacKinnon and Karen Phillipps has all the names in English, Chinese and pinyin. It is much cheaper than the English version I bought it in Beijing in 2002 for $40 Terry (I forgot his surname) tried to get help with transliteration of birds of the world but did not get as far as he would have liked. Cheers, Phil Phil Straw Vice Chairman Australasian Wader Studies Group of BirdLife Australia philip.straw AT awsg.org.au www.awsg.org.au Tel: 61 2 9597 7765 Mob: 0411 249 075 Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail On 26/05/2013, at 3:03 AM, "John" wrote: Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of the Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the Classification and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or other Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. John T. Burridge PO Box 14444 East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 USA +1(401)435-6111 +1(401)435-4880 birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca burridge AT cox.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: "John" <burridge AT cox.net>
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 21:44:30 -0400

Maybe that was me, Phil -- Terry is my nickname and I am known by that name to my Canadian university chums and at my UK publishers, Cambridge Scholars in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. As my earlier e-mail indicated, the MacKinnon / Phillipps book is obviously not correctly / usefully transliterated as they have no tone designations at all, either the older type with the superscript numbers, or the current version using diacritical accents. And I have heard that it is not very accurate from an ornithological standpoint as well. Best regards John ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Straw To: John Cc: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names john, A field guide to the Birds of China (Chinese version) by John MacKinnon and Karen Phillipps has all the names in English, Chinese and pinyin. It is much cheaper than the English version I bought it in Beijing in 2002 for $40 Terry (I forgot his surname) tried to get help with transliteration of birds of the world but did not get as far as he would have liked. Cheers, Phil Phil Straw Vice Chairman Australasian Wader Studies Group of BirdLife Australia philip.straw AT awsg.org.au www.awsg.org.au Tel: 61 2 9597 7765 Mob: 0411 249 075 Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail On 26/05/2013, at 3:03 AM, "John" wrote: Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of the Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the Classification and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or other Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. John T. Burridge PO Box 14444 East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 USA +1(401)435-6111 +1(401)435-4880 birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca burridge AT cox.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: $BJV(B: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: Simba Chan <simba.chan AT birdlife.org>
Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 00:28:01 +0000

Dear John and Mike, The book $B!F(BA checklist on the Classification and Distribution of the Birds of the World$B!G(B edited by Prof Zheng Guangmei (2002 Science Press) is probably still available in some bigger and more specialized book shops in China. There is a revised edition of $B!F(BA Checklist on the Classification and Distribution of the Birds of China$B!G(B, published in 2011, and this should be widely available. The 1997 Handbook Mike mentioned was actually compiled by Hang Furan and Prof Chang Jiachuan. Best wishes Simba Chan BirdLife International Asia Division $B:9=P?M(B: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] $BBeM}?M(B Michael Rank $BAw?.F|;~(B: 2013$BG/(B5$B7n(B26$BF|(B 3:58 $B08 AT h(B: John $B#C#C(B: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com $B7oL>(B: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names No, I think it's very unlikely that this would be available anywhere but A Handbook of the Names of the Birds in China, also edited by Zheng, 1997, gives names in Chinese characters, transliteration, scientific, English, Russian, Japanese and Korean. It's for Chinese birds only and it seems to be out of print, although it is available on a Chinese auction site very cheaply http://bq.kongfz.com/detail_17039319/ But I think you would need a Chinese friend to get it for you.... Sorry I can't be of more help. Michael Rank On 25 May 2013, at 18:03, "John" > wrote: > Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of the Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the Classification and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or other Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. > > John T. Burridge > PO Box 14444 > East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 > USA > +1(401)435-6111 > +1(401)435-4880 > birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca > burridge AT cox.net > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.orgYahoo! Groups Links > > > >
Please consider biodiversity and the environment before deciding whether to print this message and any attachments. The content of this e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this communication in error, be aware that forwarding it, copying it, or in any way disclosing its content to any other person, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail immediately. The BirdLife International Partnership is a Partnership of over 110 conservation organizations around the world. BirdLife International the Secretariat to the Partnership is a UK registered company no. 2985746, registered Charity no. 1042125, registered address: Wellbrook Court, Girton Road, Cambridge CB3 0NA, UK. BirdLife International Secretariat Regional Offices: Amman, Brussels, Nairobi, Quito, Suva, Tokyo.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Little Gull (Hydrocoloeus minutus) New Bird for Pakistan?
From: "islbirder" <guernseynotes AT btinternet.com>
Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 18:34:32 -0000

Earlier today a potential new addition to the Pakistan Bird List was recorded. A LITTLE GULL was discovered by HGS during the early morning of Sunday 26 May 2013 and later confirmed by SDN and RMK's photographs. It was a first-summer individual and was recorded at Rawal Lake on the outskirts of Islamabad, Federal Capital Area. The LITTLE GULL was found following a night of thunderstorms and heavy rain in the area. The bird was still present during the early afternoon and was associating with two Black-headed Gulls about 30 Whiskered Terns and one Little Tern. The latter being a rarity in the the Islamabad area that has been present for a week. ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: RE: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: "Crossland, Andrew" <andrew.crossland AT ccc.govt.nz>
Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 09:52:31 +1200

Just wading in here, I must say I think the only workable solution on these postings is the line of argument that David Sharp has presented (below)..... In the context of Indonesia, even if somehow you could get the politicians, national and local government officials, the police and army to suspend their dependence on corruption and make the elimination of the illegal bird trade their one and only priority, you'd be lucky to cut 20% of that activity. Why? Because Indonesians like having birds in cages hanging from a hook under the veranda. 8 out of 10 houses has at least one, some houses have dozens. And thousands upon thousands of people make a living from catching birds and selling them. Not to the international market, but to neighbours and people walking past in the street. And, aside from the thousands of people who catch birds to sell, there's thousands more that just enjoy walking around a patch of forest or stalking through a tapioca field, shooting birds randomly with an air rifle. catching stuff and killing stuff is a national past-time. It makes people happy. However, clearly both catching and killing birds are fads. But unfortunately they've been fads for a very long time. - back to someones earlier analogy of the cessation of smoking in pubs in England. Maybe in the UK, people stopped because laws were passed and the police enforced them? However, in my experience in New Zealand, these types of laws had a lesser effect - the greater effect was social pressure. The community had a change in mindset - smokers began to be treated as social pariahs, told openly that their habit of smoking was considered disgusting, was a personal weakeness, and was badly affecting the health of others, especially children. Subsequent to change in public sentiment against smoking, there remain a core group of grumpy old men who feel that society has cruelly dumped on them and turned their habit from being the height of cool in the 1950s to something forced into cold alley ways and roof tops in the 2010s', but to a younger generation the fact is now its simply not cool to smoke and many young people don't want friends or partners to smoke around them. So - back to Indonesia and the issue of trying to turn society against the bird trade. The grumpy old men are still probably going to do it no matter what (even if a tiny number end up becoming bird guides instead), but it may very well be possible to massively reduce the practise amongst younger generations, say the under 40s. Picking up on David's theme, the media and celebrities have enormous influence in Indonesia. And its cool amongst celebrities to be seen as the national champion of one cause or another. Already it has become cool amongst young people to love the environment, go hiking, go camping, even watching nature (look at the rise in indigenous ornithology in Indonesia in the last decade). A remarkable change has occurred there in the 20 yrs I've been regularly visiting. There's a lot of people on the verge of becoming "greenies". I suggest it is absolutely the right moment to somehow to develop an alliance between aid/lobby money and a TV writing/directing team to develop a popular TV series where some of those key messages around protection of wildlife and the evilness of the bird trade are portrayed. Use some currently popular actors, and interweave some important key messages into it. It might even make my Sumatran brother-in-law's teenage kids to talk their dad into not getting his army mates to bring him some ore birds of paradise from Papua when the 6 he's got now have died! cheers Andrew Crossland New Zealand ________________________________ From: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com [mailto:orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013 8:15 p.m. To: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade Excuse my vigorous rhetoric but apathy and resignation is rampant. Current activities do have some effect but it's a drop in the ocean compared to what is needed and may even be counterproductive if it diverts time and effort from the only real solution. Law enforcement on the issue is surely a cosy dream. In Thailand, the police themselves have been fingered in elephant hunting. Not enough of the population of SE Asia care enough to force the politicians to force the police to do anything that is not directly related to the peoples' own immediate survival or prosperity. The only way it will seep in is if the glitterati spin the message. Here in Thailand I can see it working quite easily. The soaps, full of beautiful celebs, are on TV all evening every evening churning out oceans of drivel and are watched slavishly. The message could be slipped in here almost subliminally - for example that it's no longer cute to keep a Red-whiskered bulbul called Chokdee ('good luck') in a cage. The message could be simply that times have changed and it's now bad luck (or bad karma) to have such birds. The Thais are a superstitious lot and this would gradually have an effect. That's a start. We need global leadership, money and coordination on this. At the moment there doesn't seem to anyone around big enough to do it, but perhaps that's because the admittedly crass method of harnessing the popular media hasn't yet hit the agenda. David Sharp Bangkok From: Ronald Orenstein Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 6:06 AM To: David ; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade I agree with David's general point. However, the task he suggests is a far less easy one than he seems to imply. First of all, it is not true to suggest that conservation bodies (including NGOs) are not addressing issues of demand reduction and market education in eastern Asia. For some issues (such as the consumption of shark fin) programmes of this sort are beginning to have an effect. Colleagues of mine are embarking on similar programmes (involving bringing in celebrities such as basketball star Yao Ming) to address trade in ivory and rhinoceros horn in China and Vietnam. I suggest that it would be more productive to study (and assist) these programmes (including studying their failures) than to simply complain that no one is doing anything. Education and demand reduction programmes, like any other conservation effort, work best when those operating them fully understand the target markets, so that programmes can be designed that reach the right people and address them in ways that are likely to be convincing. Thanks to the work of TRAFFIC SE Asia and others we know a good deal about the mechanics of the SE Asian bird market; I suspect we know far less about the motives and knowledge of buyers, both in Indonesia and abroad. Bird markets are a widespread phenomenon in Asia, but I have seen few cultural studies of how they operate. For example - why are bird markets so popular in Indonesia, and in places like Hong Kong or Taiwan, but are comparatively rare in neighbouring Malaysia (I have never seen one in Sarawak, and keeping birds there does not seem to be a popular pastime)? It is also necessary to put the Indonesian bird trade into the context of general attitudes towards wildlife trade in Indonesia - telling people they should not buy wild birds may mean little in the context of a huge trade in Indonesian reptiles and other animals. All this is absolutely not a recipe for doing nothing or assuming that we cannot take action without more research. What we do need to do, though, is assess what groups (both international and local) are already trying to do in Indonesia and to what extent they need assistance. I suspect people on the ground may already know what needs to be done, and perhaps the first task is networking with them. Of course a much broader (and rather different) issue is the link between rampant environmental destruction and corruption and cronyism. This relates to wildlife trade in many ways, and for prestige items carrying high prices it is directly linked to buying patterns among the wealthy. This is crucial for ivory and rhino horn in eastern Asia, but is it as important for the bird trade in terms of buyer patterns? Which birds, say, are prestige purchases (Javan Hawk-Eagle, perhaps) as opposed to others bought for other reasons by people at lower income levels? We need action - but we need productive action. Ronald Orenstein 1825 Shady Creek Court Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2 Canada ronorenstein.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: David To: mailto:orientalbirding%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 3:33:36 PM Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade I'll keep saying this until one of our precious conservation bodies does something: the only way to prevent the unfettered economic rapine of the earth is not by whiny lobbying, not by pedantic scientific research, and not by frantic incubation schemes when it's already too late, but by changing public sensibilities. That's the ONLY way. In the long term, this needs to be done through the education system because children are most receptive to brain-washing (benign in this case). But there isn't time for that now. It needs to be done immediately through popular television with high-level celebrities drafted in, bringing the issue in the first place to public attention, then gradually to deeper understanding. It's a question of changing society's values. The message is simple: a world without nature isn't worth living in. People need to subscribe to these values like a new religion. Politics is behind economic growth, which is behind the destruction, and the only way to change politics is to change the people. David Sharp Bangkok [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ********************************************************************** This electronic email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. The views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the Christchurch City Council. If you are not the correct recipient of this email please advise the sender and delete. Christchurch City Council http://www.ccc.govt.nz ********************************************************************** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: "John" <burridge AT cox.net>
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 15:49:53 -0400

Thanks for your information, Micahel; even though it was rather disappointing it was greatly appreciated. A few years ago I was in contact with a fellow who was, I believe, if I can remember through an Alzheimer moment here, an Australian living in China (and the name Greg rattles around in my head) who operated a site called cjvlang.com (for Chinese-Japanese-Vietnamese), and from whom I obtained the transliterated names of Chinese birds in the older Pinyin system with the superscript numbers (as opposed to diacritical marks) for the tones. However, this site has been vastly changed and no longer as user-friendly. In any case its geographical basis is still limited to East Asia with some northward expansion into Mongolian (which I already have on file) and Russian (which I published in 2010). (Japanese, which presented no problems with transliteration, was published in 2012, my first venture away from European languages.) I also have the 2000 MacKinnon and Phillippe list, but I have heard by the grapevine that it is not reliable. In any case they give no indication of tone, neither the supersccript numbers nor the diacritical marks. Odd that such a list seems not not exist given the uptick in the tourism business for China, Taiwan, and Singapore (this last being virtually bilingual and with a superior educational system). John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Rank" To: "John" Cc: Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [OB] Transliteration of Chinese bird names No, I think it's very unlikely that this would be available anywhere but A Handbook of the Names of the Birds in China, also edited by Zheng, 1997, gives names in Chinese characters, transliteration, scientific, English, Russian, Japanese and Korean. It's for Chinese birds only and it seems to be out of print, although it is available on a Chinese auction site very cheaply http://bq.kongfz.com/detail_17039319/ But I think you would need a Chinese friend to get it for you.... Sorry I can't be of more help. Michael Rank On 25 May 2013, at 18:03, "John" wrote: > Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of the > Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the Classification > and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or other > Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. > > John T. Burridge > PO Box 14444 > East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 > USA > +1(401)435-6111 > +1(401)435-4880 > birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca > burridge AT cox.net > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out > more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, > please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: Michael Rank <rank AT mailbox.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 19:58:15 +0100

No, I think it's very unlikely that this would be available anywhere but A Handbook of the Names of the Birds in China, also edited by Zheng, 1997, gives names in Chinese characters, transliteration, scientific, English, Russian, Japanese and Korean. It's for Chinese birds only and it seems to be out of print, although it is available on a Chinese auction site very cheaply http://bq.kongfz.com/detail_17039319/ But I think you would need a Chinese friend to get it for you.... Sorry I can't be of more help. Michael Rank On 25 May 2013, at 18:03, "John" wrote: > Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of the Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the Classification and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or other Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. > > John T. Burridge > PO Box 14444 > East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 > USA > +1(401)435-6111 > +1(401)435-4880 > birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca > burridge AT cox.net > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Transliteration of Chinese bird names
From: "John" <burridge AT cox.net>
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 13:03:39 -0400

Does anyone have, or know where I can obtain, a transliteration of the Chinese characters in Zheng Guang-mei's "Checklist on the Classification and Distribution of the Birds of the World" (Science Press, 2002) or other Chinese list of birds of the world? Thank you. John T. Burridge PO Box 14444 East Providence, Rhode Island 02914-0444 USA +1(401)435-6111 +1(401)435-4880 birder AT tricolour.queensu.ca burridge AT cox.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Fwd: amazing flights of Arctic terns
From: "Mundkur, Taej" <Taej.Mundkur AT wetlands.org>
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 17:57:01 +0200

Dear all, Some amazing news to share about Dutch breeding Arctic Terns that migrated as far as New Zealand - although marginally Oriental! The total travel distance in the course of the non-breeding period was ~90,000 ± 2000 km, which substantially exceeds previous estimates for this species. Check out http://www.buwa.nl/en/migration-arctic-tern.html for map and link to the abstract Fijn R.C., Hiemstra D., Phillips R.A. & van der Winden J. (2013) Arctic Terns Sterna paradisaea from the Netherlands migrate record distances across three oceans to Wilkes Land, East Antarctica. ARDEA 101 (1): 3-12 Arctic Terns Sterna paradisaea have an exceptionally long distance migration, annually travelling back and forth between the Arctic and the Antarctic. Birds from Greenland, Iceland and the USA were recently found to spend most of the non-breeding period in the Weddell Sea, a small part of the large Antarctic range of Arctic Terns. Based on ring recoveries and sightings of West European Arctic Terns in the Indian Ocean and Australian waters, we expected that terns from The Netherlands (the southern limit of the breeding range) inhabit different Antarctic regions during the non-breeding season to their conspecifics from Greenland. To find out, geolocators were deployed on seven Arctic Terns captured on the nest in 2011 in The Netherlands. All birds were recaptured in 2012 and five devices yielded information on migration routes. The tracked terns spent on average 273 ± 7 days away from The Netherlands, and visited known staging areas in the North Atlantic and the Benguela Current, on both the outward and return journey. Similar tracks were observed in the terns from Greenland. However, hereafter the terns from The Netherlands moved to a previously unknown staging area in the central Indian Ocean, between 20-40°N and 65-100°E, and spent most of the non-breeding season in the Southern Ocean between 35-150°E. One bird migrated as far as New Zealand. Eventually, all five birds spent the Austral summer in Wilkes Land, Antarctica, before flying back to the breeding colonies with a small detour to the same North Atlantic staging area they visited on their southward migration. The total travel distance in the course of the non-breeding period was ~90,000 ± 2000 km, which substantially exceeds previous estimates for this species. Our study revealed new offshore staging areas and a yet unknown route through three different oceans, the longest bird migration described thus far. Best wishes, Taej Mundkur Flyway Programme Manager Wetlands International, Netherlands Tel +31614987324 Sent from my HTC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: Avin Deen <avinvasion AT yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 00:19:56 -0700 (PDT)

Â Dear David and all Thank you for raising this important topic which is really close to my heart. I more or less agree with this statement . Â "Iâ€™ll keep saying this until one of our precious conservation bodies does something: the only way to prevent the unfettered economic rapine of the earth is not by whiny lobbying, not by pedantic scientific research, and not by frantic incubation schemes when itâ€™s already too late, but by changing public sensibilities. Thatâ€™s the ONLY way." I recently chanced upon a quote by Buckminster Fuller "You never change things by fighting the existing reality.To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.â€ We have to change how cage birds occur to people, from the existing notion as good luck charms to something like a bad omen. For the relatively well educated, we could even engage "pedantic" research which shows that birds suffer immensely in captivity, especially in small cages. Engaging celebrities is definitely one great approach; but another approach is to have conversations with the people you encounter; who are considering keeping birds as pets. I have a conviction that transforming our immediate environment can slowly but surely spread to have a global impact. Dr. Stewart Metz is someone who has made a tremendous Impact with the Indonesian parrot project. You can go through his work at his website: http://indonesian-parrot-project.org/aboutus.html regards Avin India representative, World Parrot Trust. "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" for "Here was a Caesar! when comes such another?" ________________________________ From: David To: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade Â Excuse my vigorous rhetoric but apathy and resignation is rampant. Current activities do have some effect but it's a drop in the ocean compared to what is needed and may even be counterproductive if it diverts time and effort from the only real solution. Law enforcement on the issue is surely a cosy dream. In Thailand, the police themselves have been fingered in elephant hunting. Not enough of the population of SE Asia care enough to force the politicians to force the police to do anything that is not directly related to the peoples' own immediate survival or prosperity. The only way it will seep in is if the glitterati spin the message. Here in Thailand I can see it working quite easily. The soaps, full of beautiful celebs, are on TV all evening every evening churning out oceans of drivel and are watched slavishly. The message could be slipped in here almost subliminally - for example that it's no longer cute to keep a Red-whiskered bulbul called Chokdee ('good luck') in a cage. The message could be simply that times have changed and it's now bad luck (or bad karma) to have such birds. The Thais are a superstitious lot and this would gradually have an effect. Thatâ€™s a start. We need global leadership, money and coordination on this. At the moment there doesn't seem to anyone around big enough to do it, but perhaps that's because the admittedly crass method of harnessing the popular media hasn't yet hit the agenda. David Sharp Bangkok From: Ronald Orenstein Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 6:06 AM To: David ; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade I agree with David's general point. However, the task he suggests is a far less easy one than he seems to imply. First of all, it is not true to suggest that conservation bodies (including NGOs) are not addressing issues of demand reduction and market education in eastern Asia. For some issues (such as the consumption of shark fin) programmes of this sort are beginning to have an effect. Colleagues of mine are embarking on similar programmes (involving bringing in celebrities such as basketball star Yao Ming) to address trade in ivory and rhinoceros horn in China and Vietnam. I suggest that it would be more productive to study (and assist) these programmes (including studying their failures) than to simply complain that no one is doing anything. Education and demand reduction programmes, like any other conservation effort, work best when those operating them fully understand the target markets, so that programmes can be designed that reach the right people and address them in ways that are likely to be convincing. Thanks to the work of TRAFFIC SE Asia and others we know a good deal about the mechanics of the SE Asian bird market; I suspect we know far less about the motives and knowledge of buyers, both in Indonesia and abroad. Bird markets are a widespread phenomenon in Asia, but I have seen few cultural studies of how they operate. For example - why are bird markets so popular in Indonesia, and in places like Hong Kong or Taiwan, but are comparatively rare in neighbouring Malaysia (I have never seen one in Sarawak, and keeping birds there does not seem to be a popular pastime)? It is also necessary to put the Indonesian bird trade into the context of general attitudes towards wildlife trade in Indonesia - telling people they should not buy wild birds may mean little in the context of a huge trade in Indonesian reptiles and other animals. All this is absolutely not a recipe for doing nothing or assuming that we cannot take action without more research. What we do need to do, though, is assess what groups (both international and local) are already trying to do in Indonesia and to what extent they need assistance. I suspect people on the ground may already know what needs to be done, and perhaps the first task is networking with them. Of course a much broader (and rather different) issue is the link between rampant environmental destruction and corruption and cronyism. This relates to wildlife trade in many ways, and for prestige items carrying high prices it is directly linked to buying patterns among the wealthy. This is crucial for ivory and rhino horn in eastern Asia, but is it as important for the bird trade in terms of buyer patterns? Which birds, say, are prestige purchases (Javan Hawk-Eagle, perhaps) as opposed to others bought for other reasons by people at lower income levels? We need action - but we need productive action. Ronald Orenstein 1825 Shady Creek Court Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2 Canada ronorenstein.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: David To: mailto:orientalbirding%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 3:33:36 PM Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade Iâ€™ll keep saying this until one of our precious conservation bodies does something: the only way to prevent the unfettered economic rapine of the earth is not by whiny lobbying, not by pedantic scientific research, and not by frantic incubation schemes when itâ€™s already too late, but by changing public sensibilities. Thatâ€™s the ONLY way. In the long term, this needs to be done through the education system because children are most receptive to brain-washing (benign in this case). But there isnâ€™t time for that now. It needs to be done immediately through popular television with high-level celebrities drafted in, bringing the issue in the first place to public attention, then gradually to deeper understanding. Itâ€™s a question of changing societyâ€™s values. The message is simple: a world without nature isnâ€™t worth living in. People need to subscribe to these values like a new religion. Politics is behind economic growth, which is behind the destruction, and the only way to change politics is to change the people. David Sharp Bangkok [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Bird recording.
From: "michelwatelet" <michel.watelet AT scarlet.be>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 15:18:28 -0000

Hi friends, I'm Michel Watelet from Belgium. I'll go with friends in Sichuan this Monday. I try to find some birds recording : Yellow-throated Laughingthrush. White-necked Laughingthrush. Chinese Grouse. Blue-eared Pheasant. Alashan Redstart. Derbyan Parakeet. Rusty-breasted Tit. Rufous-eared Bush-Robin. Thanks, Michel. ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Pale-Capped Pigeon sighted and a record shot taken at Kuldiha WLS, Odisha
From: caesar sen <hiimcaesar AT yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 06:38:28 -0700 (PDT)

Hi.. After reading a report published in the February, 2013 issue of the Sanctuary, Asia magazine on recent sightings of Pale-Capped Pigeons (an unusually large flock of 17 birds) in the Upper Barakhamba range of the Simlipal National Park, Odisha and thereafter.. in 2012, two individuals at Ekamrakanan Park, Chandaka Elephant Reserve near Bhubaneswar, Odisha, I apprehended that the Kuldiha WLS just might be a prospective area for sighting this vulnerable bird which is rather endemic to the Eastern Ghat hills. So I left a few images of this bird along with a field guide book with Mr. Manaranjan Das,the young and enthusiastic local field guide and tour operator (also a member of our Big Bird Day team, last February covering Kuldiha WLS) and briefed him to keep an eye for the bird particularly during summer. I have received a call from him informing that he has been able to spot one.. this May Day and has subsequently mailed me a record shot of the bird a few days back. Cheers! Caesar. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Pale-capped Pigeon or Purple Wood Pigeon (Columba punicea) | Simlipal, Odisha | May 2013
From: --ramki-- <frogmouth AT gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 15:38:52 +0530

Dear all- Being one of India's rarest birds (Vulnerable C2ai), I had struggled to try and find this bird over the years in Assam, Arunachal Pradesh and parts of eastern Odisha. Not even a glimpse! Thanks to the advice of IFS officer Manoj Nair, who had extensively reported this bird from Simlipal Tiger Reserve, I made a trip last week to western Odisha. I was thrilled to find the bird in the area described by Manoj and counted a total of 37 birds at a point in time when they were at a salt lick in Sal forest (Shorea robusta). There could have been more birds still in the trees or left the lick. They were from multiple flocks and were congregating at dawn and dusk. The birds were quite far and these are significantly cropped images. Canon 1DX + 800mm + 1,4x. Apologies for cross-posting. Cheers! // ramki [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: a problem of the journal forktail
From: "Ó¥Ö®Áµ" <cranelover AT gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 16:02:44 +0800

Dear all, I submited a paper to Forktail about 10 days before, however, until now , I still get no reply from the editor. I do not know if the editor have received my email. Anyone knows what is wrong? Thanks! -------------------------------------------- Qiang Liu National Plateau Wetland Research Center Bailong Si£¬Kunming£¬China 650224 Website£º http://www.eaglechina.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: Hock <ooichinhock AT gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 11:04:06 +0800

Dear Matthew, Thanks on behalf of those u released !! A few hours of freedom matters, i assume. Ooi Chin Hock. 60122357123 iPhone On 21 May, 2013, at 13:56, Matthew Sheader wrote: I remember my regular surveys of Jl. Bintang in Medan in the late 90s. Pittas, pheasants, partridges, owls, barbets, leafbirds, thrushes... Thousands of birds. Had me in tears. For small victories, I used to surreptitiously open as many cage doors as I could. Probably released lord knows how many diseases into the wild though. To: halmahera AT hotmail.com; andyadcock AT ntlworld.com; brendansloan AT hotmail.com; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com From: bivonjones AT yahoo.co.uk Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 08:22:24 +0100 Subject: Fw: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade Tragic story with little hope for the future. Indonesia has a major problem with corruption. Bribery is at epidemic proportions and while other countries have a similar problem no other nation in the region as far as I know has the problem at such a prolific level. Logging is a classic example where recently we have heard the Government has made some moves against illegal logging but in a few months when outside attention is looking elsewhere it will go back to the normal status quo. If you look at the largest logging enterprises which employ 1,250,000 - 1,500,000 people you can see the scale of the problem; then there is mining and so on. Fascinating country with the greatest mammalian bio-diversity on earth but which is apparently bringing species to the point of extinction faster than anywhere else on earth. Brian Ivon Jones, Jiang Borui, Director, Golden Capital Holdings Ltd., Art Custodians and Advisers Ltd. China Museum Enterprises Ltd. China Exhibitions Ltd. Bus. Direct Line: 86-(0)-755-8256-7193 Ext. 8016 Fax: (86)-755-8256-8512 China Mob: (86) 1314 6000737 China Alternate Mob: (86)-1868-0308303 Skype: bivonjones email: bivonjones AT yahoo.co.uk ________________________________ From: colin trainor To: Andy Adcock ; Brendan Sloan Cc: oriental birding Sent: Sunday, 19 May 2013, 8:57 Subject: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade I'm not really up on bird trade in Indonesia but it is a massive issue, and some of Indonesia's/Java's island endemics are either EXTINCT IN WILD now, or very close. Recent studies and advocacy/Press releases, reports and papers (BirdingASIA etc) have been produced by Paul Jepson in collaboration with Burung Indonesia (BirdLife in Indonesia) and perhaps Aksenta an NGO; TRAFFIC has been active (see work by Chris Shpeherd), also PROfauna and perhaps several other Indonesian NGOs. Some of the Indonesian NGOs do bird market surveys, create lists of species being sold, but not link that to the global status of species. They do regularly make press releases by these Indonesian NGOs in local press and other forums, but seems to have little affect. Work by Jepson/Burung Indonesia illustrated the INCREDIBLE scale of bird trade - its 100,000s of individual houses in each of the major cities they looked at - mostly wild caught birds - with high bird death rates in nets/markets and even before being sold. So theres incredible general demand from the public, and also intense demand for song birds, used in song bird competitions [and ongoing international demand, presumably mostly parrots and cockatoos]. Some song birds win competition prizes worth $US10,000s. MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE. The scale is extraordinary. I'm not sure how you influence higher levels of govt and whether that might sensibly translate to increased resources/funding/manpower to policing markets - and whether that would only lead to trade going underground. Species like Green Javan Magpie are heading for extinction now. This would be a good time to try to apply methods that influence Govt on this issue at various levels; give greater financial support and perhaps direction to local NGOS, and perhaps start and continue research which builds on work of Jepson/Burung Indonesia and others. Interntional support looks like it would be valuable. Australia contributes about $500 million in international aid annually (mostly health, education, community dev) to Indonesia, but the Indonesian Govt spends $8,000 million ($8 Billion) on its military annually, stating within the past month that that level of funding was needed to have a stronger military than Australia and other neighboring Asian countries. Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 18:54:52 +0100 Subject: Re: Indonesia bird trade From: andyadcock AT ntlworld.com To: brendansloan AT hotmail.com CC: halmahera AT hotmail.com; frankrheindt AT yahoo.com.au Hi Brendan,as usual it's simple economics. In a poor country people make money in whatever way they can. The police are so poorly paid that they are not very highly incentivised to act on something like this in fact they are far more likely to be taking 'back handers' not to act. As in many places there is no long term view whether it be birds or deforestation, they only see today and the money to be made today. Andy On 18 May 2013 17:39, Brendan Sloan wrote: Hi Frank Andy and Colin I saw the list and its appalling that this trade carries on openly Especially with on the brink species like Javan Magpie I ve just read that Indonesia recieved $43 billion in western aid in 2004. The figure is likely still to be very high Could not pressure be put on in relation to this aid ie that it is cut or withheld at least in portion until such basic things as the bird trade are put in order Just a few thoughts Best regards Brendan -- Andy Adcock19Hooton RoadCarltonNottinghamNG41FZNottinghamshireEngland 07757 697726 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Java's horrendous bird trade
From: Martin Williams <martin AT drmartinwilliams.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 10:33:19 +0800

Hi Andy and all: Clearly this is an issue of huge concern; and frustration as so hard to solve. I don't see bird photo contest idea as quite so "softly, softly". Indeed, to some extent akin to fighting fire with fire: some kind of slogan about "Real Wild Bird Lovers - Love Wild Birds Flying Free" would be directly counter to the ideas that cage bird keepers are bird lovers, intended to spark a little debate. And having prizes for shots of birds in wild would be contrast to prizes for captive birds; tho there are issues, including ensuring even people with just smartphones have chances to win, not just for people with expensive gear. - contest should also have something to suggest that cage bird keeping is old-fashioned. Can't be in isolation, of course. But public relations is crucial; and I see nothing "crass" in working through mass media if possible. Public support is vital for helping support legal action; likewise need financial incentives as suggested, for people charged with upholding laws that are often weak, and behind the times. [Even grandiose CITES seems out of step with realities; never mind any rules about markets in poor rural areas]. It indeed seems unrealistic that threats over aid funds can help. Anyone visiting the pitiful remnant of Muara Angke mangrove reserve in fringe of Jakarta can see there's a lot of money sloshing around Indonesia nowadays, but not to this woeful little place. [I went in Feb; had looked forward to it for some time…] Changes are possible, and can come quickly. I've just had quick read through what seems impressive article on bird slaughter for women's fashions, supplying demand in Britain and US, around start of 20th century. - the devastating trade was halted relatively fast, thanks to attempts to change public attitudes, legislation and - curiously - the introduction of a fashionable new hairstyle http://fashioningfeathers.com/murderous-millinery/ While if you are interested in some shots I took of a bird market on Java, I've put album here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.554564884593702&type=1 - this is on an active group for Indonesian birders; with some impressive photos. Glimmer of hope in this. Best regards, Martin Dr Martin Williams www.drmartinwilliams.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Java's horrendous bird trade
From: Thomas Kuenzel <thomaskuenzel2 AT yahoo.de>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 13:51:26 +0100 (BST)

Dear Andy, All, I agree fully with your opinion/suggestion that proper cooperation with the local forces on the ground has to be found - and financial incentives should not be negatively discussed; in contrary, incentives will be be very much necessary. Furthermore, any joint anti-poaching/anti-logging activity executed successfully between Police and NGOs will also be very helpful for any future promotion in rank for the police officers involved. I made such very positive experience during 5 years (2004-08) working with Forest Rangers and local armed forces against illegal logging and poaching in Western Visayas, Philippines. Best regards, Thomas ________________________________ Von: Andy Adcock An: Martin Williams CC: orientalbirding Gesendet: 16:37 Montag, 20.Mai 2013 Betreff: Re: [OB] Java's horrendous bird trade Â Hi Martin, all, I personally think that this has now gone so far that a 'softly,softly, patient approach such as Martin suggested has not got sufficient time to be effective before complete, local extinctions en-masse take place. In my opinion, a hard line has to be taken at local police level, not parliament. The politicians take too much time to get anything done and it's the police who need to be acting on this. Some way to inspire the police to act has to be found. Sadly, in Indonesia the only incentives that seem attractive to the police are financial. These markets operate so openly, there is absolutely no fear of criminal proceedings and until that mentality changes, nothing else will. A very sad state of affairs. Andy On 20 May 2013 03:25, Martin Williams wrote: > ** > > > Hi Colin and all: > > Some brief comments on Java bird trade; may write more later, perhaps > upload a short video with bird market. > > I spent 3 weeks on Java in Feb; travelled from Jakarta to east coast by > road - over 1200km. > Not solid birding trip [thankfully!], but certainly looking for birds. > > As I've experienced from previous visits, mostly appalling for birds. > Never mind global rarities: stop in a typical part of Javan countryside, > and very hard to see anything other than a few tree sparrows, munias, > flowerpeckers: even amongst rice fields, trees, shrubs. > > Massive bird trapping surely the key reason. > Stopped at a bird market at a protected forest [nr Nganjuk]; were faded > signs warning against selling protected species, but seemed it was ok to > sell pretty much anything: crows, minivets, pigeons inc Jambu fruit dove, > chestnut-capped thrush [hah! - how I'd love to have seen a real one of > these on quick stop at a protected forest]. > The forest - a government teak plantation? - seemed birdless. Leaves had > huge holes in them; a guy at nearby warden post told us that from a > caterpillar infestation that happens late in the year. Learned of other > issues with caterpillars as pests: hardly surprising. > > Even long-tailed shrikes were in cages outside houses, as well as in the > market; maybe with more "suitable" cage birds about gone - Java sparrow an > endangered species on its own island! - the rapacious trade maybe moving on > to other species that won't do as well in captivity. [Across on nearby > Bali, easy to see these shrikes, even in back gardens; I saw none at all in > wild during the Java trip. Yes, they can be still found; are still pockets > of good birdlife. And yes, other parts of e Asia are also close to being > Useless Bird Areas.] > > Looked forward to quick outing at forest reserve at Pangandaran, on south > coast. Only to the part near the town, soon after dawn: zero or near zero > birds [even heard], tho were a few monkeys. Lots of fruit bats appeared > from the area at dusk, maybe from more protected reserve slightly further > away. But still, great trees, woeful birding. > > A convenience store had magazine/newspaper, Burung - Birds. Bought one; my > wife translated parts - about contests for "bird lovers" who can win motor > bikes etc for their cage birds. Straw-headed Bulbul on the cover; another > species I've seen caged but not wild. Maybe contests all for men; and maybe > about ego tripping rather than bird loving. > > There are also Indonesian birders, people who like wildlife in the wild. > I've since emailed Colin and few others, re idea of trying for bird photo > contest to promote idea of loving wild birds flying free; some sort of > counter-balance to the contests for cage birds. With digital photography, > facebook etc, might be feasible. > > Best regards, > Martin > > Dr Martin Williams, Hong Kong > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Andy Adcock 19Hooton Road Carlton Nottingham NG41FZ Nottinghamshire England 07757 697726 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: Thomas Kuenzel <thomaskuenzel2 AT yahoo.de>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 13:36:22 +0100 (BST)

Dear ALL, from your discussion anybody understands that you are very much concerned about the conservation of wildlife - that different conservationists may have different ideas to solve conservation related problems has been always a normality. But, in today's time it should be a widely accepted opinion that any conservation must be executed in two ways - 1) long-term approaches with regard to sustainability (building civil society, reducing corruption, improve education and income, etc.) , and 2) immediate protection activities which are targeting on species/habitat which are most threatened to be already extinct when sustainable methods will finally be functioning. In this context, it is without any doubt most important to protect wildlife and habitat NOW on the ground with direct protection measures- to ensure that it is still around when the long-term measures have become reality. After nearly 2 decades of conservation activities in tropical Africa and SE-Asia I am convinced that most of all it needs FORES RANGERS (or however you wish to call alike personnal) to protect habitat and wildlife on the ground. And here I have to add that many national and also some international conservation NGOs are failing badly in SE-Asia. The foremost reason why international conservation orgs are failing is their fear to be kicked out of the respective countries of operation, and heir fear to become a target of the illegalists. Both reasons should be seen as contra-productive turning conservation NGOs in orgs busy with recording only and with activities different from the badly needed habitat and wildlife protection on the ground keeping them out of conflict with the logging and poaching groups in their respective countries of operation. This above described conflict avoiding behavior/policy of NGOs (national and international) in SE-Asia is degrading them to HELPERS of loggers and poachers.Â Best regards, Thomas ________________________________ Von: David An: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Gesendet: 15:14 Dienstag, 21.Mai 2013 Betreff: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade Â Excuse my vigorous rhetoric but apathy and resignation is rampant. Current activities do have some effect but it's a drop in the ocean compared to what is needed and may even be counterproductive if it diverts time and effort from the only real solution. Law enforcement on the issue is surely a cosy dream. In Thailand, the police themselves have been fingered in elephant hunting. Not enough of the population of SE Asia care enough to force the politicians to force the police to do anything that is not directly related to the peoples' own immediate survival or prosperity. The only way it will seep in is if the glitterati spin the message. Here in Thailand I can see it working quite easily. The soaps, full of beautiful celebs, are on TV all evening every evening churning out oceans of drivel and are watched slavishly. The message could be slipped in here almost subliminally - for example that it's no longer cute to keep a Red-whiskered bulbul called Chokdee ('good luck') in a cage. The message could be simply that times have changed and it's now bad luck (or bad karma) to have such birds. The Thais are a superstitious lot and this would gradually have an effect. Thatâ€™s a start. We need global leadership, money and coordination on this. At the moment there doesn't seem to anyone around big enough to do it, but perhaps that's because the admittedly crass method of harnessing the popular media hasn't yet hit the agenda. David Sharp Bangkok From: Ronald Orenstein Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 6:06 AM To: David ; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade I agree with David's general point. However, the task he suggests is a far less easy one than he seems to imply. First of all, it is not true to suggest that conservation bodies (including NGOs) are not addressing issues of demand reduction and market education in eastern Asia. For some issues (such as the consumption of shark fin) programmes of this sort are beginning to have an effect. Colleagues of mine are embarking on similar programmes (involving bringing in celebrities such as basketball star Yao Ming) to address trade in ivory and rhinoceros horn in China and Vietnam. I suggest that it would be more productive to study (and assist) these programmes (including studying their failures) than to simply complain that no one is doing anything. Education and demand reduction programmes, like any other conservation effort, work best when those operating them fully understand the target markets, so that programmes can be designed that reach the right people and address them in ways that are likely to be convincing. Thanks to the work of TRAFFIC SE Asia and others we know a good deal about the mechanics of the SE Asian bird market; I suspect we know far less about the motives and knowledge of buyers, both in Indonesia and abroad. Bird markets are a widespread phenomenon in Asia, but I have seen few cultural studies of how they operate. For example - why are bird markets so popular in Indonesia, and in places like Hong Kong or Taiwan, but are comparatively rare in neighbouring Malaysia (I have never seen one in Sarawak, and keeping birds there does not seem to be a popular pastime)? It is also necessary to put the Indonesian bird trade into the context of general attitudes towards wildlife trade in Indonesia - telling people they should not buy wild birds may mean little in the context of a huge trade in Indonesian reptiles and other animals. All this is absolutely not a recipe for doing nothing or assuming that we cannot take action without more research. What we do need to do, though, is assess what groups (both international and local) are already trying to do in Indonesia and to what extent they need assistance. I suspect people on the ground may already know what needs to be done, and perhaps the first task is networking with them. Of course a much broader (and rather different) issue is the link between rampant environmental destruction and corruption and cronyism. This relates to wildlife trade in many ways, and for prestige items carrying high prices it is directly linked to buying patterns among the wealthy. This is crucial for ivory and rhino horn in eastern Asia, but is it as important for the bird trade in terms of buyer patterns? Which birds, say, are prestige purchases (Javan Hawk-Eagle, perhaps) as opposed to others bought for other reasons by people at lower income levels? We need action - but we need productive action. Ronald Orenstein 1825 Shady Creek Court Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2 Canada ronorenstein.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: David To: mailto:orientalbirding%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 3:33:36 PM Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade Iâ€™ll keep saying this until one of our precious conservation bodies does something: the only way to prevent the unfettered economic rapine of the earth is not by whiny lobbying, not by pedantic scientific research, and not by frantic incubation schemes when itâ€™s already too late, but by changing public sensibilities. Thatâ€™s the ONLY way. In the long term, this needs to be done through the education system because children are most receptive to brain-washing (benign in this case). But there isnâ€™t time for that now. It needs to be done immediately through popular television with high-level celebrities drafted in, bringing the issue in the first place to public attention, then gradually to deeper understanding. Itâ€™s a question of changing societyâ€™s values. The message is simple: a world without nature isnâ€™t worth living in. People need to subscribe to these values like a new religion. Politics is behind economic growth, which is behind the destruction, and the only way to change politics is to change the people. David Sharp Bangkok [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: Brian Ivon Jones <bivonjones AT yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 00:51:46 +0100 (BST)

David: One area we are looking at in China is using the media to highlight the problems that exist in illegal netting, trapping and consumption amongst the wealthy here in Guangdong of rare mammalian species. It is already having some success albeit limited in such a big country. China has plenty of laws protecting its outstanding bio-diversity, the problem lies in the provinces where they are inevitably ignored. You can contact senior officials in Beijing who are sympathetic and cooperative who do their best but the problems lie with provincial police who so often ignore the problems and corrupt provincial officials. However progress is being made, more and more people around the country are becoming actively involved. I and my fellow believers had a very active time last year destroying hundreds perhaps thousands of illegal mist nets which is still only a drop in the ocean. But it is interesting to note more media groups are picking up the stories about these illegal practices; it will probably prove too late to save the likes of Jankowski's Bunting ( due to loss of suitable habitat) which is now reduced to a few tiny reserves, although this year there appears to be something of a resurgence with numbers being seen at one location of between 20-30 rather than 6-7 last year. Brian. Â Brian Ivon Jones, Jiang Borui, Director, Golden Capital Holdings Ltd., Art Custodians and Advisers Ltd. China Museum Enterprises Ltd. China Exhibitions Ltd. Bus. Direct Line: 86-(0)-755-8256-7193 Ext. 8016 Fax: (86)-755-8256-8512 China Mob: (86) 1314 6000737 ChinaÂ Alternate Mob: (86)-1868-0308303 Skype: bivonjones email: bivonjones AT yahoo.co.uk ________________________________ From: David To: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2013, 16:14 Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade Â Excuse my vigorous rhetoric but apathy and resignation is rampant. Current activities do have some effect but it's a drop in the ocean compared to what is needed and may even be counterproductive if it diverts time and effort from the only real solution. Law enforcement on the issue is surely a cosy dream. In Thailand, the police themselves have been fingered in elephant hunting. Not enough of the population of SE Asia care enough to force the politicians to force the police to do anything that is not directly related to the peoples' own immediate survival or prosperity. The only way it will seep in is if the glitterati spin the message. Here in Thailand I can see it working quite easily. The soaps, full of beautiful celebs, are on TV all evening every evening churning out oceans of drivel and are watched slavishly. The message could be slipped in here almost subliminally - for example that it's no longer cute to keep a Red-whiskered bulbul called Chokdee ('good luck') in a cage. The message could be simply that times have changed and it's now bad luck (or bad karma) to have such birds. The Thais are a superstitious lot and this would gradually have an effect. Thatâ€™s a start. We need global leadership, money and coordination on this. At the moment there doesn't seem to anyone around big enough to do it, but perhaps that's because the admittedly crass method of harnessing the popular media hasn't yet hit the agenda. David Sharp Bangkok From: Ronald Orenstein Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 6:06 AM To: David ; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade I agree with David's general point. However, the task he suggests is a far less easy one than he seems to imply. First of all, it is not true to suggest that conservation bodies (including NGOs) are not addressing issues of demand reduction and market education in eastern Asia. For some issues (such as the consumption of shark fin) programmes of this sort are beginning to have an effect. Colleagues of mine are embarking on similar programmes (involving bringing in celebrities such as basketball star Yao Ming) to address trade in ivory and rhinoceros horn in China and Vietnam. I suggest that it would be more productive to study (and assist) these programmes (including studying their failures) than to simply complain that no one is doing anything. Education and demand reduction programmes, like any other conservation effort, work best when those operating them fully understand the target markets, so that programmes can be designed that reach the right people and address them in ways that are likely to be convincing. Thanks to the work of TRAFFIC SE Asia and others we know a good deal about the mechanics of the SE Asian bird market; I suspect we know far less about the motives and knowledge of buyers, both in Indonesia and abroad. Bird markets are a widespread phenomenon in Asia, but I have seen few cultural studies of how they operate. For example - why are bird markets so popular in Indonesia, and in places like Hong Kong or Taiwan, but are comparatively rare in neighbouring Malaysia (I have never seen one in Sarawak, and keeping birds there does not seem to be a popular pastime)? It is also necessary to put the Indonesian bird trade into the context of general attitudes towards wildlife trade in Indonesia - telling people they should not buy wild birds may mean little in the context of a huge trade in Indonesian reptiles and other animals. All this is absolutely not a recipe for doing nothing or assuming that we cannot take action without more research. What we do need to do, though, is assess what groups (both international and local) are already trying to do in Indonesia and to what extent they need assistance. I suspect people on the ground may already know what needs to be done, and perhaps the first task is networking with them. Of course a much broader (and rather different) issue is the link between rampant environmental destruction and corruption and cronyism. This relates to wildlife trade in many ways, and for prestige items carrying high prices it is directly linked to buying patterns among the wealthy. This is crucial for ivory and rhino horn in eastern Asia, but is it as important for the bird trade in terms of buyer patterns? Which birds, say, are prestige purchases (Javan Hawk-Eagle, perhaps) as opposed to others bought for other reasons by people at lower income levels? We need action - but we need productive action. Ronald Orenstein 1825 Shady Creek Court Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2 Canada ronorenstein.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: David To: mailto:orientalbirding%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 3:33:36 PM Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade Iâ€™ll keep saying this until one of our precious conservation bodies does something: the only way to prevent the unfettered economic rapine of the earth is not by whiny lobbying, not by pedantic scientific research, and not by frantic incubation schemes when itâ€™s already too late, but by changing public sensibilities. Thatâ€™s the ONLY way. In the long term, this needs to be done through the education system because children are most receptive to brain-washing (benign in this case). But there isnâ€™t time for that now. It needs to be done immediately through popular television with high-level celebrities drafted in, bringing the issue in the first place to public attention, then gradually to deeper understanding. Itâ€™s a question of changing societyâ€™s values. The message is simple: a world without nature isnâ€™t worth living in. People need to subscribe to these values like a new religion. Politics is behind economic growth, which is behind the destruction, and the only way to change politics is to change the people. David Sharp Bangkok [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: "David" <davidsharp1 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 15:14:41 +0700

Excuse my vigorous rhetoric but apathy and resignation is rampant. Current activities do have some effect but it's a drop in the ocean compared to what is needed and may even be counterproductive if it diverts time and effort from the only real solution. Law enforcement on the issue is surely a cosy dream. In Thailand, the police themselves have been fingered in elephant hunting. Not enough of the population of SE Asia care enough to force the politicians to force the police to do anything that is not directly related to the peoples' own immediate survival or prosperity. The only way it will seep in is if the glitterati spin the message. Here in Thailand I can see it working quite easily. The soaps, full of beautiful celebs, are on TV all evening every evening churning out oceans of drivel and are watched slavishly. The message could be slipped in here almost subliminally - for example that it's no longer cute to keep a Red-whiskered bulbul called Chokdee ('good luck') in a cage. The message could be simply that times have changed and it's now bad luck (or bad karma) to have such birds. The Thais are a superstitious lot and this would gradually have an effect. Thatâ€™s a start. We need global leadership, money and coordination on this. At the moment there doesn't seem to anyone around big enough to do it, but perhaps that's because the admittedly crass method of harnessing the popular media hasn't yet hit the agenda. David Sharp Bangkok From: Ronald Orenstein Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 6:06 AM To: David ; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade I agree with David's general point. However, the task he suggests is a far less easy one than he seems to imply. First of all, it is not true to suggest that conservation bodies (including NGOs) are not addressing issues of demand reduction and market education in eastern Asia. For some issues (such as the consumption of shark fin) programmes of this sort are beginning to have an effect. Colleagues of mine are embarking on similar programmes (involving bringing in celebrities such as basketball star Yao Ming) to address trade in ivory and rhinoceros horn in China and Vietnam. I suggest that it would be more productive to study (and assist) these programmes (including studying their failures) than to simply complain that no one is doing anything. Education and demand reduction programmes, like any other conservation effort, work best when those operating them fully understand the target markets, so that programmes can be designed that reach the right people and address them in ways that are likely to be convincing. Thanks to the work of TRAFFIC SE Asia and others we know a good deal about the mechanics of the SE Asian bird market; I suspect we know far less about the motives and knowledge of buyers, both in Indonesia and abroad. Bird markets are a widespread phenomenon in Asia, but I have seen few cultural studies of how they operate. For example - why are bird markets so popular in Indonesia, and in places like Hong Kong or Taiwan, but are comparatively rare in neighbouring Malaysia (I have never seen one in Sarawak, and keeping birds there does not seem to be a popular pastime)? It is also necessary to put the Indonesian bird trade into the context of general attitudes towards wildlife trade in Indonesia - telling people they should not buy wild birds may mean little in the context of a huge trade in Indonesian reptiles and other animals. All this is absolutely not a recipe for doing nothing or assuming that we cannot take action without more research. What we do need to do, though, is assess what groups (both international and local) are already trying to do in Indonesia and to what extent they need assistance. I suspect people on the ground may already know what needs to be done, and perhaps the first task is networking with them. Of course a much broader (and rather different) issue is the link between rampant environmental destruction and corruption and cronyism. This relates to wildlife trade in many ways, and for prestige items carrying high prices it is directly linked to buying patterns among the wealthy. This is crucial for ivory and rhino horn in eastern Asia, but is it as important for the bird trade in terms of buyer patterns? Which birds, say, are prestige purchases (Javan Hawk-Eagle, perhaps) as opposed to others bought for other reasons by people at lower income levels? We need action - but we need productive action. Ronald Orenstein 1825 Shady Creek Court Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2 Canada ronorenstein.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: David To: mailto:orientalbirding%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 3:33:36 PM Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade Iâ€™ll keep saying this until one of our precious conservation bodies does something: the only way to prevent the unfettered economic rapine of the earth is not by whiny lobbying, not by pedantic scientific research, and not by frantic incubation schemes when itâ€™s already too late, but by changing public sensibilities. Thatâ€™s the ONLY way. In the long term, this needs to be done through the education system because children are most receptive to brain-washing (benign in this case). But there isnâ€™t time for that now. It needs to be done immediately through popular television with high-level celebrities drafted in, bringing the issue in the first place to public attention, then gradually to deeper understanding. Itâ€™s a question of changing societyâ€™s values. The message is simple: a world without nature isnâ€™t worth living in. People need to subscribe to these values like a new religion. Politics is behind economic growth, which is behind the destruction, and the only way to change politics is to change the people. David Sharp Bangkok [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: RE: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: Matthew Sheader <msheader AT hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 05:56:07 +0000

I remember my regular surveys of Jl. Bintang in Medan in the late 90s. Pittas, pheasants, partridges, owls, barbets, leafbirds, thrushes... Thousands of birds. Had me in tears. For small victories, I used to surreptitiously open as many cage doors as I could. Probably released lord knows how many diseases into the wild though. To: halmahera AT hotmail.com; andyadcock AT ntlworld.com; brendansloan AT hotmail.com; orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com From: bivonjones AT yahoo.co.uk Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 08:22:24 +0100 Subject: Fw: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade Tragic story with little hope for the future. Indonesia has a major problem with corruption. Bribery is at epidemic proportions and while other countries have a similar problem no other nation in the region as far as I know has the problem at such a prolific level. Logging is a classic example where recently we have heard the Government has made some moves against illegal logging but in a few months when outside attention is looking elsewhere it will go back to the normal status quo. If you look at the largest logging enterprises which employ 1,250,000 - 1,500,000 people you can see the scale of the problem; then there is mining and so on. Fascinating country with the greatest mammalian bio-diversity on earth but which is apparently bringing species to the point of extinction faster than anywhere else on earth. Brian Ivon Jones, Jiang Borui, Director, Golden Capital Holdings Ltd., Art Custodians and Advisers Ltd. China Museum Enterprises Ltd. China Exhibitions Ltd. Bus. Direct Line: 86-(0)-755-8256-7193 Ext. 8016 Fax: (86)-755-8256-8512 China Mob: (86) 1314 6000737 China Alternate Mob: (86)-1868-0308303 Skype: bivonjones email: bivonjones AT yahoo.co.uk ________________________________ From: colin trainor To: Andy Adcock ; Brendan Sloan Cc: oriental birding Sent: Sunday, 19 May 2013, 8:57 Subject: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade I'm not really up on bird trade in Indonesia but it is a massive issue, and some of Indonesia's/Java's island endemics are either EXTINCT IN WILD now, or very close. Recent studies and advocacy/Press releases, reports and papers (BirdingASIA etc) have been produced by Paul Jepson in collaboration with Burung Indonesia (BirdLife in Indonesia) and perhaps Aksenta an NGO; TRAFFIC has been active (see work by Chris Shpeherd), also PROfauna and perhaps several other Indonesian NGOs. Some of the Indonesian NGOs do bird market surveys, create lists of species being sold, but not link that to the global status of species. They do regularly make press releases by these Indonesian NGOs in local press and other forums, but seems to have little affect. Work by Jepson/Burung Indonesia illustrated the INCREDIBLE scale of bird trade - its 100,000s of individual houses in each of the major cities they looked at - mostly wild caught birds - with high bird death rates in nets/markets and even before being sold. So theres incredible general demand from the public, and also intense demand for song birds, used in song bird competitions [and ongoing international demand, presumably mostly parrots and cockatoos]. Some song birds win competition prizes worth $US10,000s. MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE. The scale is extraordinary. I'm not sure how you influence higher levels of govt and whether that might sensibly translate to increased resources/funding/manpower to policing markets - and whether that would only lead to trade going underground. Species like Green Javan Magpie are heading for extinction now. This would be a good time to try to apply methods that influence Govt on this issue at various levels; give greater financial support and perhaps direction to local NGOS, and perhaps start and continue research which builds on work of Jepson/Burung Indonesia and others. Interntional support looks like it would be valuable. Australia contributes about $500 million in international aid annually (mostly health, education, community dev) to Indonesia, but the Indonesian Govt spends $8,000 million ($8 Billion) on its military annually, stating within the past month that that level of funding was needed to have a stronger military than Australia and other neighboring Asian countries. Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 18:54:52 +0100 Subject: Re: Indonesia bird trade From: andyadcock AT ntlworld.com To: brendansloan AT hotmail.com CC: halmahera AT hotmail.com; frankrheindt AT yahoo.com.au Hi Brendan,as usual it's simple economics. In a poor country people make money in whatever way they can. The police are so poorly paid that they are not very highly incentivised to act on something like this in fact they are far more likely to be taking 'back handers' not to act. As in many places there is no long term view whether it be birds or deforestation, they only see today and the money to be made today. Andy On 18 May 2013 17:39, Brendan Sloan wrote: Hi Frank Andy and Colin I saw the list and its appalling that this trade carries on openly Especially with on the brink species like Javan Magpie I ve just read that Indonesia recieved $43 billion in western aid in 2004. The figure is likely still to be very high Could not pressure be put on in relation to this aid ie that it is cut or withheld at least in portion until such basic things as the bird trade are put in order Just a few thoughts Best regards Brendan -- Andy Adcock19Hooton RoadCarltonNottinghamNG41FZNottinghamshireEngland 07757 697726 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Java's horrendous bird trade
From: Brendan Sloan <brendansloan AT hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 13:10:59 +0100

I agree wholeheartedly a softly softly approach will do nothing in the medium to short term Law enforcement can take place in any country where there is a will to do it. In our own countries we all pay parking fees routinely and though we all dislike it intensely we pay up as they are rigorously enforced and we are given no choice. The same basic principle can be applied anywhere For example police or environmental officers enforcing against the bird trade could have a commission built into every successful case brought against bird traffickers . 10 % or 20 % even in local currency would soon make it very attractive and get some at least on the ball. The commission paid to traffic wardens here has made them dedicated and merciless in the application of the law . In the longer run some at least of the trappers could be be turned into good bird guides as has happened elsewhere and they could make as good an income that way If you can ban smoking in English Irish and Scottish pubs a centuries old tradition then you can also effectively ban and act against this bird trade If the only language in such countries is money and corruption as is alleged then leverage should be applied in examining aid packages which amount to endless millions every year. Would it be such a wild unreasonable request that some effective law enforcement is applied to this trade as a quid pro quo for these endless millions. Maybe its time for some kind of action forum of concerned parties to get involved and try to turn the situation around Just some passing thoughts Brendan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Java's horrendous bird trade
From: Andy Adcock <andyadcock AT ntlworld.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 10:37:09 +0100

Hi Martin, all, I personally think that this has now gone so far that a 'softly,softly, patient approach such as Martin suggested has not got sufficient time to be effective before complete, local extinctions en-masse take place. In my opinion, a hard line has to be taken at local police level, not parliament. The politicians take too much time to get anything done and it's the police who need to be acting on this. Some way to inspire the police to act has to be found. Sadly, in Indonesia the only incentives that seem attractive to the police are financial. These markets operate so openly, there is absolutely no fear of criminal proceedings and until that mentality changes, nothing else will. A very sad state of affairs. Andy On 20 May 2013 03:25, Martin Williams wrote: > ** > > > Hi Colin and all: > > Some brief comments on Java bird trade; may write more later, perhaps > upload a short video with bird market. > > I spent 3 weeks on Java in Feb; travelled from Jakarta to east coast by > road - over 1200km. > Not solid birding trip [thankfully!], but certainly looking for birds. > > As I've experienced from previous visits, mostly appalling for birds. > Never mind global rarities: stop in a typical part of Javan countryside, > and very hard to see anything other than a few tree sparrows, munias, > flowerpeckers: even amongst rice fields, trees, shrubs. > > Massive bird trapping surely the key reason. > Stopped at a bird market at a protected forest [nr Nganjuk]; were faded > signs warning against selling protected species, but seemed it was ok to > sell pretty much anything: crows, minivets, pigeons inc Jambu fruit dove, > chestnut-capped thrush [hah! - how I'd love to have seen a real one of > these on quick stop at a protected forest]. > The forest - a government teak plantation? - seemed birdless. Leaves had > huge holes in them; a guy at nearby warden post told us that from a > caterpillar infestation that happens late in the year. Learned of other > issues with caterpillars as pests: hardly surprising. > > Even long-tailed shrikes were in cages outside houses, as well as in the > market; maybe with more "suitable" cage birds about gone - Java sparrow an > endangered species on its own island! - the rapacious trade maybe moving on > to other species that won't do as well in captivity. [Across on nearby > Bali, easy to see these shrikes, even in back gardens; I saw none at all in > wild during the Java trip. Yes, they can be still found; are still pockets > of good birdlife. And yes, other parts of e Asia are also close to being > Useless Bird Areas.] > > Looked forward to quick outing at forest reserve at Pangandaran, on south > coast. Only to the part near the town, soon after dawn: zero or near zero > birds [even heard], tho were a few monkeys. Lots of fruit bats appeared > from the area at dusk, maybe from more protected reserve slightly further > away. But still, great trees, woeful birding. > > A convenience store had magazine/newspaper, Burung - Birds. Bought one; my > wife translated parts - about contests for "bird lovers" who can win motor > bikes etc for their cage birds. Straw-headed Bulbul on the cover; another > species I've seen caged but not wild. Maybe contests all for men; and maybe > about ego tripping rather than bird loving. > > There are also Indonesian birders, people who like wildlife in the wild. > I've since emailed Colin and few others, re idea of trying for bird photo > contest to promote idea of loving wild birds flying free; some sort of > counter-balance to the contests for cage birds. With digital photography, > facebook etc, might be feasible. > > Best regards, > Martin > > Dr Martin Williams, Hong Kong > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Andy Adcock 19Hooton Road Carlton Nottingham NG41FZ Nottinghamshire England 07757 697726 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: "(Adam) A. Supriatna" <asianraptor7 AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 09:34:19 +0700

Dear All, I agree with educational approach and it should be done systematically through school's curricula and direct action for local people living near around conservation areas. But the problem with national curricula is to-often-changed. Now the govt will launch again a controversial curricula (2013) with environmental education lesson has no more place to be taught systimatically. It is that the children is more receptive to brain washing but urgent problem now in the country is very poor law enforcement. Illegal logging, bird hunting, trades of threatened species etc are done by adults. Children only follow and receive bad examples. In this situation, we can hope from firm and effective LAW ENFORCEMENT and maybe the move of NGOs. Unfortunatelly environmental NGOs in Indonesia are not as strong as they were... So, to me the urgent thing now is how to effectivelly enforce the already existing relevant laws. Best, *(Adam) A. Supriatna* .............................................. *Affiliation:* *Kukila, Journal of Indonesian Ornithology* *Asian Raptor Research & Conservation Network* *Raptor Research Foundation* On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 2:33 AM, David wrote: > I’ll keep saying this until one of our precious conservation bodies does > something: the only way to prevent the unfettered economic rapine of the > earth is not by whiny lobbying, not by pedantic scientific research, and > not by frantic incubation schemes when it’s already too late, but by > changing public sensibilities. That’s the ONLY way. > In the long term, this needs to be done through the education system > because children are most receptive to brain-washing (benign in this case). > But there isn’t time for that now. It needs to be done immediately through > popular television with high-level celebrities drafted in, bringing the > issue in the first place to public attention, then gradually to deeper > understanding. It’s a question of changing society’s values. > The message is simple: a world without nature isn’t worth living in. > People need to subscribe to these values like a new religion. Politics is > behind economic growth, which is behind the destruction, and the only way > to change politics is to change the people. > David Sharp > Bangkok > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out > more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, > please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Java's horrendous bird trade
From: Martin Williams <martin AT drmartinwilliams.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 10:25:12 +0800

Hi Colin and all: Some brief comments on Java bird trade; may write more later, perhaps upload a short video with bird market. I spent 3 weeks on Java in Feb; travelled from Jakarta to east coast by road - over 1200km. Not solid birding trip [thankfully!], but certainly looking for birds. As I've experienced from previous visits, mostly appalling for birds. Never mind global rarities: stop in a typical part of Javan countryside, and very hard to see anything other than a few tree sparrows, munias, flowerpeckers: even amongst rice fields, trees, shrubs. Massive bird trapping surely the key reason. Stopped at a bird market at a protected forest [nr Nganjuk]; were faded signs warning against selling protected species, but seemed it was ok to sell pretty much anything: crows, minivets, pigeons inc Jambu fruit dove, chestnut-capped thrush [hah! - how I'd love to have seen a real one of these on quick stop at a protected forest]. The forest - a government teak plantation? - seemed birdless. Leaves had huge holes in them; a guy at nearby warden post told us that from a caterpillar infestation that happens late in the year. Learned of other issues with caterpillars as pests: hardly surprising. Even long-tailed shrikes were in cages outside houses, as well as in the market; maybe with more "suitable" cage birds about gone - Java sparrow an endangered species on its own island! - the rapacious trade maybe moving on to other species that won't do as well in captivity. [Across on nearby Bali, easy to see these shrikes, even in back gardens; I saw none at all in wild during the Java trip. Yes, they can be still found; are still pockets of good birdlife. And yes, other parts of e Asia are also close to being Useless Bird Areas.] Looked forward to quick outing at forest reserve at Pangandaran, on south coast. Only to the part near the town, soon after dawn: zero or near zero birds [even heard], tho were a few monkeys. Lots of fruit bats appeared from the area at dusk, maybe from more protected reserve slightly further away. But still, great trees, woeful birding. A convenience store had magazine/newspaper, Burung - Birds. Bought one; my wife translated parts - about contests for "bird lovers" who can win motor bikes etc for their cage birds. Straw-headed Bulbul on the cover; another species I've seen caged but not wild. Maybe contests all for men; and maybe about ego tripping rather than bird loving. There are also Indonesian birders, people who like wildlife in the wild. I've since emailed Colin and few others, re idea of trying for bird photo contest to promote idea of loving wild birds flying free; some sort of counter-balance to the contests for cage birds. With digital photography, facebook etc, might be feasible. Best regards, Martin Dr Martin Williams, Hong Kong [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: Ronald Orenstein <ron.orenstein AT rogers.com>
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 16:06:44 -0700 (PDT)

I agree with David's general point. Â However, the task he suggests is a far less easy one than he seems to imply. First of all, it is not true to suggest that conservation bodies (including NGOs) are not addressing issues of demand reduction and market education in eastern Asia. Â For some issues (such as the consumption of shark fin) programmes of this sort are beginning to have an effect. Â Colleagues of mine are embarking on similar programmes (involving bringing in celebrities such as basketball star Yao Ming) to address trade in ivory and rhinoceros horn in China and Vietnam. Â I suggest that it would be more productive to study (and assist) these programmes (including studying their failures) than to simply complain that no one is doing anything. Education and demand reduction programmes, like any other conservation effort, work best when those operating them fully understand the target markets, so that programmes can be designed that reach the right people and address them in ways that are likely to be convincing. Â Thanks to the work of TRAFFIC SE Asia and others we know a good deal about the mechanics of the SE Asian bird market; I suspect we know far less about the motives and knowledge of buyers, both in Indonesia and abroad. Â Bird markets are a widespread phenomenon in Asia, but I have seen few cultural studies of how they operate. Â For example - why are bird markets so popular in Indonesia, and in places like Hong Kong or Taiwan, but are comparatively rare in neighbouring Malaysia (I have never seen one in Sarawak, and keeping birds there does not seem to be a popular pastime)? It is also necessary to put the Indonesian bird trade into the context of general attitudes towards wildlife trade in Indonesia - telling people they should not buy wild birds may mean little in the context of a huge trade in Indonesian reptiles and other animals. All this is absolutely not a recipe for doing nothing or assuming that we cannot take action without more research. Â What we do need to do, though, is assess what groups (both international and local) are already trying to do in Indonesia and to what extent they need assistance. Â I suspect people on the ground may already know what needs to be done, and perhaps the first task is networking with them. Of course a much broader (and rather different) issue is the link between rampant environmental destruction and corruption and cronyism. Â This relates to wildlife trade in many ways, and for prestige items carrying high prices it is directly linked to buying patterns among the wealthy. Â This is crucial for ivory and rhino horn in eastern Asia, but is it as important for the bird trade in terms of buyer patterns? Â Which birds, say, are prestige purchases (Javan Hawk-Eagle, perhaps) as opposed to others bought for other reasons by people at lower income levels? We need action - but we need productive action. Â Ronald Orenstein 1825 Shady Creek Court Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2 Canada ronorenstein.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: David To: orientalbirding AT yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 3:33:36 PM Subject: Re: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade Â Iâ€™ll keep saying this until one of our precious conservation bodies does something: the only way to prevent the unfettered economic rapine of the earth is not by whiny lobbying, not by pedantic scientific research, and not by frantic incubation schemes when itâ€™s already too late, but by changing public sensibilities. Thatâ€™s the ONLY way. In the long term, this needs to be done through the education system because children are most receptive to brain-washing (benign in this case). But there isnâ€™t time for that now. It needs to be done immediately through popular television with high-level celebrities drafted in, bringing the issue in the first place to public attention, then gradually to deeper understanding. Itâ€™s a question of changing societyâ€™s values. The message is simple: a world without nature isnâ€™t worth living in. People need to subscribe to these values like a new religion. Politics is behind economic growth, which is behind the destruction, and the only way to change politics is to change the people. David Sharp Bangkok [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 16:31:30 -0400 (EDT)

Well said David - definitely the only way but incredibly difficult Lee Evans In a message dated 19/05/2013 21:26:50 GMT Daylight Time, davidsharp1 AT hotmail.com writes: Iâ€™ll keep saying this until one of our precious conservation bodies does something: the only way to prevent the unfettered economic rapine of the earth is not by whiny lobbying, not by pedantic scientific research, and not by frantic incubation schemes when itâ€™s already too late, but by changing public sensibilities. Thatâ€™s the ONLY way. In the long term, this needs to be done through the education system because children are most receptive to brain-washing (benign in this case). But there isnâ€™t time for that now. It needs to be done immediately through popular television with high-level celebrities drafted in, bringing the issue in the first place to public attention, then gradually to deeper understanding. Itâ€™s a question of changing societyâ€™s values. The message is simple: a world without nature isnâ€™t worth living in. People need to subscribe to these values like a new religion. Politics is behind economic growth, which is behind the destruction, and the only way to change politics is to change the people. David Sharp Bangkok [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: "David" <davidsharp1 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 02:33:36 +0700

Iâ€™ll keep saying this until one of our precious conservation bodies does something: the only way to prevent the unfettered economic rapine of the earth is not by whiny lobbying, not by pedantic scientific research, and not by frantic incubation schemes when itâ€™s already too late, but by changing public sensibilities. Thatâ€™s the ONLY way. In the long term, this needs to be done through the education system because children are most receptive to brain-washing (benign in this case). But there isnâ€™t time for that now. It needs to be done immediately through popular television with high-level celebrities drafted in, bringing the issue in the first place to public attention, then gradually to deeper understanding. Itâ€™s a question of changing societyâ€™s values. The message is simple: a world without nature isnâ€™t worth living in. People need to subscribe to these values like a new religion. Politics is behind economic growth, which is behind the destruction, and the only way to change politics is to change the people. David Sharp Bangkok [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Prof Valeriy Dmitrievich Il'ichev passed away
From: Jevgeni Shergalin <zoolit2 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 11:25:30 +0000

Dear all, The Russian Bird Conservation Union with deep grief informs that on 18th May 2013 on 76th year of life outstanding Soviet and Russian ornithologist and manager of science, the head of Labioratory fo Ecology and Bird Behaviour Control of Institute of Problems of Ecology and Evoloution, Dr habil. Professor Valeriy Dmitrievich Ilichev passed away. He was the Chairman of Onrithological Committee of the USSR, General Secretary of the XVIIIth International Ornithological Congress (Moscow, 1982), founder and the first President of All-Union (now Menzbier) Ornithological Society, founder (together with Prof. V.E.Flint) of a multi-volume review «Birds of the USSR» (now «Birds of Russia and adjacent regions»), developer and head of all-Union programmes on applied apsects of ornithology. He was a leader of the ornitholoogists of the USSR in the second half of the 1970's – 1980's and owing to him that period of time is named as a "golden century" of Soviet ornithology. The Russian Bird Conservation Union expresses condolenses to the colleagueas, friends and numerous scholars of Valeriy Dmitrievich. Light and eternal memory to him. V.A.Zubakin, President of the Russian Bird Consdervation Union Address for letters with condolences: sevinbirdstrike(AT)gmail.com More details are here http://www.rbcu.ru/news/25016/ with apologies for cross-posting. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Prof Valeriy Dmitrievich Il'ichev passed away
From: Jevgeni Shergalin <zoolit2 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 11:25:30 +0000

Dear all, The Russian Bird Conservation Union with deep grief informs that on 18th May 2013 on 76th year of life outstanding Soviet and Russian ornithologist and manager of science, the head of Labioratory fo Ecology and Bird Behaviour Control of Institute of Problems of Ecology and Evoloution, Dr habil. Professor Valeriy Dmitrievich Ilichev passed away. He was the Chairman of Onrithological Committee of the USSR, General Secretary of the XVIIIth International Ornithological Congress (Moscow, 1982), founder and the first President of All-Union (now Menzbier) Ornithological Society, founder (together with Prof. V.E.Flint) of a multi-volume review «Birds of the USSR» (now «Birds of Russia and adjacent regions»), developer and head of all-Union programmes on applied apsects of ornithology. He was a leader of the ornitholoogists of the USSR in the second half of the 1970's – 1980's and owing to him that period of time is named as a "golden century" of Soviet ornithology. The Russian Bird Conservation Union expresses condolenses to the colleagueas, friends and numerous scholars of Valeriy Dmitrievich. Light and eternal memory to him. V.A.Zubakin, President of the Russian Bird Consdervation Union Address for letters with condolences: sevinbirdstrike(AT)gmail.com More details are here http://www.rbcu.ru/news/25016/ with apologies for cross-posting. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This list is maintained by the Ornithological Society of the Middle East, Caucasus and Central Asia. Read all about us at http://www.osme.org To unsubscribe by email send an empty email message to:- MEBirdNet-unsubscribe AT yahoogroups.com
Subject: Fw: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: Brian Ivon Jones <bivonjones AT yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 08:22:24 +0100 (BST)

Â Tragic story with little hope for the future. Indonesia has a major problem with corruption. BriberyÂ is at epidemic proportions and while other countries have a similar problem no other nation in the region as far as I know has the problem at such a prolific level. Logging is a classic example where recently we have heard the Government has made some moves against illegal logging but in a few months when outside attention is looking elsewhere it will go back to the normal status quo. If you look at the largest logging enterprises which employ 1,250,000 - 1,500,000 people you can see the scale of the problem; then there is mining and so on. Fascinating country with the greatest mammalian bio-diversity on earth but which is apparently bringing species to the point of extinction faster than anywhere else on earth. Â Brian Ivon Jones, Jiang Borui, Director, Golden Capital Holdings Ltd., Art Custodians and Advisers Ltd. China Museum Enterprises Ltd. China Exhibitions Ltd. Bus. Direct Line: 86-(0)-755-8256-7193 Ext. 8016 Fax: (86)-755-8256-8512 China Mob: (86) 1314 6000737 ChinaÂ Alternate Mob: (86)-1868-0308303 Skype: bivonjones email: bivonjones AT yahoo.co.uk ________________________________ From: colin trainor To: Andy Adcock ; Brendan Sloan Cc: oriental birding Sent: Sunday, 19 May 2013, 8:57 Subject: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade Â I'm not really up on bird trade in Indonesia but it is a massive issue, and some of Indonesia's/Java's island endemics are either EXTINCT IN WILD now, or very close. Recent studies and advocacy/Press releases, reports and papers (BirdingASIA etc) have been produced by Paul Jepson in collaboration with Burung Indonesia (BirdLife in Indonesia) and perhaps Aksenta an NGO; TRAFFIC has been active (see work by Chris Shpeherd), also PROfauna and perhaps several other Indonesian NGOs. Some of the Indonesian NGOs do bird market surveys, create lists of species being sold, but not link that to the global status of species. They do regularly make press releases by these Indonesian NGOs in local press and other forums, but seems to have little affect. Work by Jepson/Burung Indonesia illustrated the INCREDIBLE scale of bird trade - its 100,000s of individual houses in each of the major cities they looked at - mostly wild caught birds - with high bird death rates in nets/markets and even before being sold. So theres incredible general demand from the public, and also intense demand for song birds, used in song bird competitions [and ongoing international demand, presumably mostly parrots and cockatoos]. Some song birds win competition prizes worth $US10,000s. MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE. The scale is extraordinary. I'm not sure how you influence higher levels of govt and whether that might sensibly translate to increased resources/funding/manpower to policing markets - and whether that would only lead to trade going underground. Species like Green Javan Magpie are heading for extinction now. This would be a good time to try to apply methods that influence Govt on this issue at various levels; give greater financial support and perhaps direction to local NGOS, and perhaps start and continue research which builds on work of Jepson/Burung Indonesia and others. Interntional support looks like it would be valuable. Australia contributes about $500 million in international aid annually (mostly health, education, community dev) to Indonesia, but the Indonesian Govt spends $8,000 million ($8 Billion) on its military annually, stating within the past month that that level of funding was needed to have a stronger military than Australia and other neighboring Asian countries. Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 18:54:52 +0100 Subject: Re: Indonesia bird trade From: andyadcock AT ntlworld.com To: brendansloan AT hotmail.com CC: halmahera AT hotmail.com; frankrheindt AT yahoo.com.au Hi Brendan,as usual it's simple economics. In a poor country people make money in whatever way they can. The police are so poorly paid that they are not very highly incentivised to act on something like this in fact they are far more likely to be taking 'back handers' not to act. As in many places there is no long term view whether it be birds or deforestation, they only see today and the money to be made today. Andy On 18 May 2013 17:39, Brendan Sloan wrote: Hi Frank Andy and Colin I saw the list and its appalling that this trade carries on openly Especially with on the brink species like Javan Magpie I ve just read that Indonesia recieved $43 billion in western aid in 2004. The figure is likely still to be very high Could not pressure be put on in relation to this aid ie that it is cut or withheld at least in portion until such basic things as the bird trade are put in order Just a few thoughts Best regards Brendan -- Andy Adcock19Hooton RoadCarltonNottinghamNG41FZNottinghamshireEngland 07757 697726 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: Frank Rheindt <frankrheindt AT yahoo.com.au>
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 00:09:06 -0700 (PDT)

Dear Colin et al., Thank you very much for posting the recent listing on birds traded in Yogyakarta here on OB. Bird trade (most of it illegal) in Java is a topic that deserves far more attention than it currently attracts. In a recent literature survey of what's known about Javan Green Magpies (van Balen et al. 2012; Bird Conservation International), we came to the pessimistic conclusion that the world population of wild Javan Green Magpies may well be in the low dozens, if not less. So we can't be sure if the recent record of one caught individual in the Yogyakarta bird market is a reason for optimism (that they're still around) or pessimism (that perhaps this was one of the last few). Add to this the taxonomic factor. Javan Green Magpie (Cissa thalassina) was widely regarded as conspecific with Bornean birds (Cissa jefferyi) until our publication (van Balen et al 2012). There are perhaps a dozen more Javan bird taxa currently considered conspecific with populations from Borneo/Sumatra that may well be split in upcoming treatments, such as an Indonesian field guide that is scheduled to appear within the next three years. Many of these upcoming splits are now extremely hard to find anywhere in Java. The topic is very important. I think we all agree on that. However, I hope you don't mind if I express my doubts about whether a discussion on foreign aid and military spending is very helpful in this context. For instance, according to the SIPRI database (see link below), Indonesian annual military spending is ~$ 5 billion (i.e. 0.7% of GDP), but that is dwarfed by much smaller countries like Australia, whose spending is ~$ 23 billion (=1.9% of GDP) - not even to mention some "bigger spenders" in Europe and North America. I am uncertain if I, as a Westerner, could legitimately employ military spending as an argument in the conservation debate surrounding Indonesia. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your reference, and I am sure we are all in full agreement about the urgency of tackling illegal bird trade in Java. I just felt it appropriate to make the above statement because I have observed that some of my Indonesian students and close friends sometimes become frustrated when they hear similar lines of reasoning. And such emotional discordance surely does not help the debate. I apologize for the diversion. Keep up the good work in Indonesian bird conservation. Cheers Frank cited link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures ------------------------------ Dr Frank E. Rheindt Assistant Professor Department of Biological Sciences National University of Singapore ------------------------------ --- On Sat, 18/5/13, colin trainor wrote: From: colin trainor Subject: [OB] RE: Indonesia bird trade To: "Andy Adcock" , "Brendan Sloan" Cc: "oriental birding" Received: Saturday, 18 May, 2013, 8:57 PM I'm not really up on bird trade in Indonesia but it is a massive issue, and some of Indonesia's/Java's island endemics are either EXTINCT IN WILD now, or very close. Recent studies and advocacy/Press releases, reports and papers (BirdingASIA etc) have been produced by Paul Jepson in collaboration with Burung Indonesia (BirdLife in Indonesia) and perhaps Aksenta an NGO; TRAFFIC has been active (see work by Chris Shpeherd), also PROfauna and perhaps several other Indonesian NGOs. Some of the Indonesian NGOs do bird market surveys, create lists of species being sold, but not link that to the global status of species. They do regularly make press releases by these Indonesian NGOs in local press and other forums, but seems to have little affect. Work by Jepson/Burung Indonesia illustrated the INCREDIBLE scale of bird trade - its 100,000s of individual houses in each of the major cities they looked at - mostly wild caught birds - with high bird death rates in nets/markets and even before being sold. So theres incredible general demand from the public, and also intense demand for song birds, used in song bird competitions [and ongoing international demand, presumably mostly parrots and cockatoos]. Some song birds win competition prizes worth $US10,000s. MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE. The scale is extraordinary. I'm not sure how you influence higher levels of govt and whether that might sensibly translate to increased resources/funding/manpower to policing markets - and whether that would only lead to trade going underground. Species like Green Javan Magpie are heading for extinction now. This would be a good time to try to apply methods that influence Govt on this issue at various levels; give greater financial support and perhaps direction to local NGOS, and perhaps start and continue research which builds on work of Jepson/Burung Indonesia and others. Interntional support looks like it would be valuable. Australia contributes about $500 million in international aid annually (mostly health, education, community dev) to Indonesia, but the Indonesian Govt spends $8,000 million ($8 Billion) on its military annually, stating within the past month that that level of funding was needed to have a stronger military than Australia and other neighboring Asian countries. Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 18:54:52 +0100 Subject: Re: Indonesia bird trade From: andyadcock AT ntlworld.com To: brendansloan AT hotmail.com CC: halmahera AT hotmail.com; frankrheindt AT yahoo.com.au Hi Brendan,as usual it's simple economics. In a poor country people make money in whatever way they can.   The police are so poorly paid that they are not very highly incentivised to act on something like this in fact they are far more likely to be taking 'back handers' not to act. As in many places there is no long term view whether it be birds or deforestation, they only see today and the money to be made today. Andy On 18 May 2013 17:39, Brendan Sloan wrote: Hi Frank Andy and Colin I saw the list and its appalling that this trade carries on openly Especially with on the brink species like Javan Magpie I ve just read that Indonesia recieved $43 billion in western aid in 2004. The figure is likely still to be very high Could not pressure be put on in relation to this aid ie that it is cut or withheld at least in portion until such basic things as the bird trade are put in order Just a few thoughts Best regards Brendan                         -- Andy Adcock19Hooton RoadCarltonNottinghamNG41FZNottinghamshireEngland 07757 697726                         [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: RE: Indonesia bird trade
From: colin trainor <halmahera AT hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 10:27:56 +0930

I'm not really up on bird trade in Indonesia but it is a massive issue, and some of Indonesia's/Java's island endemics are either EXTINCT IN WILD now, or very close. Recent studies and advocacy/Press releases, reports and papers (BirdingASIA etc) have been produced by Paul Jepson in collaboration with Burung Indonesia (BirdLife in Indonesia) and perhaps Aksenta an NGO; TRAFFIC has been active (see work by Chris Shpeherd), also PROfauna and perhaps several other Indonesian NGOs. Some of the Indonesian NGOs do bird market surveys, create lists of species being sold, but not link that to the global status of species. They do regularly make press releases by these Indonesian NGOs in local press and other forums, but seems to have little affect. Work by Jepson/Burung Indonesia illustrated the INCREDIBLE scale of bird trade - its 100,000s of individual houses in each of the major cities they looked at - mostly wild caught birds - with high bird death rates in nets/markets and even before being sold. So theres incredible general demand from the public, and also intense demand for song birds, used in song bird competitions [and ongoing international demand, presumably mostly parrots and cockatoos]. Some song birds win competition prizes worth $US10,000s. MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE. The scale is extraordinary. I'm not sure how you influence higher levels of govt and whether that might sensibly translate to increased resources/funding/manpower to policing markets - and whether that would only lead to trade going underground. Species like Green Javan Magpie are heading for extinction now. This would be a good time to try to apply methods that influence Govt on this issue at various levels; give greater financial support and perhaps direction to local NGOS, and perhaps start and continue research which builds on work of Jepson/Burung Indonesia and others. Interntional support looks like it would be valuable. Australia contributes about $500 million in international aid annually (mostly health, education, community dev) to Indonesia, but the Indonesian Govt spends $8,000 million ($8 Billion) on its military annually, stating within the past month that that level of funding was needed to have a stronger military than Australia and other neighboring Asian countries. Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 18:54:52 +0100 Subject: Re: Indonesia bird trade From: andyadcock AT ntlworld.com To: brendansloan AT hotmail.com CC: halmahera AT hotmail.com; frankrheindt AT yahoo.com.au Hi Brendan,as usual it's simple economics. In a poor country people make money in whatever way they can. The police are so poorly paid that they are not very highly incentivised to act on something like this in fact they are far more likely to be taking 'back handers' not to act. As in many places there is no long term view whether it be birds or deforestation, they only see today and the money to be made today. Andy On 18 May 2013 17:39, Brendan Sloan wrote: Hi Frank Andy and Colin I saw the list and its appalling that this trade carries on openly Especially with on the brink species like Javan Magpie I ve just read that Indonesia recieved $43 billion in western aid in 2004. The figure is likely still to be very high Could not pressure be put on in relation to this aid ie that it is cut or withheld at least in portion until such basic things as the bird trade are put in order Just a few thoughts Best regards Brendan -- Andy Adcock19Hooton RoadCarltonNottinghamNG41FZNottinghamshireEngland 07757 697726 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Birds traded, Jogja, Java Indonesia - yesterday
From: Frank Rheindt <frankrheindt AT yahoo.com.au>
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 07:21:26 -0700 (PDT)

Colin, The most interesting species in that list is the Javan Magpie, a bird some people believe may be extinct in the wild. The fact that one was traded today in Yogyakarta raises the hope that there may be a good population out there somewhere in the mountains of Central Java. Frank ------------------------------ Frank E. Rheindt, PhD Assistant Professor Department of Biological Sciences National University of Singapore ------------------------------ --- On Fri, 17/5/13, colin trainor wrote: From: colin trainor Subject: [OB] Birds traded, Jogja, Java Indonesia - yesterday To: "orientalbirding" Received: Friday, 17 May, 2013, 10:19 PM From Cendrawasih Panji on Facebook.... 17 May2013 Cendrawasih Panji Some shocking list of traded bird at Pasar Burung Yogyakarta today: Pied Fantail (LC, Law Protected) +5 Barn Owl (LC) 2 Sunda Scops Owl (Endemic, LC) +15 Unidentified Scops Owl 2 Sunda Laughingthrush (Sumatra and Borneo Endemic, LC) 1 Asian Fairy Bluebird (LC) 1 Javan Short Tailed Green Magpie (Javan Endemic, CR) 1 Javan Sunbird (Javan Endemic, LC, Law Protected) 2 Unidentified Lorry +10 Racket-tailed Treepie 1 Black Drongo 2 Red Avadavat +10 Javan Pond Heron 1 White-breasted Waterhen 1 Indigo Flycatcher 1 Black-capped Babbler 1 Olive-backed Tailorbird (Javan Endemic, LC) 2 Crescent-chested Babbler (Javan Endemic, LC) 2 Javan Sparrow (Javan Endemic, VU) +5 Unidentified Parrotfinch 2 Brown Shrike (Migrant) 2 Juvenile Purple-backed Starling (Migrant) 1 And many other common cagebird: Munias, Shama, Robin, Thrush, Oriole, Iora, etc.                         [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Re: Birds traded, Jogja, Java Indonesia - yesterday
From: Andy Adcock <andyadcock AT ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 10:54:00 +0100

This seems to be the norm in Indonesia, it's exactly the same in Yogyakarta where they had Pygmy Woodpeckers as well as Flycatchers, Owls, Sunbirds, the list goes on. They don't even try to hide this trade, it will never stop whilst the police don't enforce the law locally. Andy On 18 May 2013 03:19, colin trainor wrote: > ** > > > From Cendrawasih Panji on Facebook.... > > 17 May2013 > > Cendrawasih Panji Some shocking list of traded bird at Pasar Burung > Yogyakarta today: > Pied Fantail (LC, Law Protected) +5 > Barn Owl (LC) 2 > Sunda Scops Owl (Endemic, LC) +15 > Unidentified Scops Owl 2 > Sunda Laughingthrush (Sumatra and Borneo Endemic, LC) 1 > Asian Fairy Bluebird (LC) 1 > Javan Short Tailed Green Magpie (Javan Endemic, CR) 1 > Javan Sunbird (Javan Endemic, LC, Law Protected) 2 > Unidentified Lorry +10 > Racket-tailed Treepie 1 > Black Drongo 2 > Red Avadavat +10 > Javan Pond Heron 1 > White-breasted Waterhen 1 > Indigo Flycatcher 1 > Black-capped Babbler 1 > Olive-backed Tailorbird (Javan Endemic, LC) 2 > Crescent-chested Babbler (Javan Endemic, LC) 2 > Javan Sparrow (Javan Endemic, VU) +5 > Unidentified Parrotfinch 2 > Brown Shrike (Migrant) 2 Juvenile > Purple-backed Starling (Migrant) 1 > And many other common cagebird: Munias, Shama, Robin, Thrush, Oriole, > Iora, etc. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Andy Adcock 19Hooton Road Carlton Nottingham NG41FZ Nottinghamshire England 07757 697726 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Birds traded, Jogja, Java Indonesia - yesterday
From: colin trainor <halmahera AT hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 11:49:23 +0930

From Cendrawasih Panji on Facebook.... 17 May2013 Cendrawasih Panji Some shocking list of traded bird at Pasar Burung Yogyakarta today: Pied Fantail (LC, Law Protected) +5 Barn Owl (LC) 2 Sunda Scops Owl (Endemic, LC) +15 Unidentified Scops Owl 2 Sunda Laughingthrush (Sumatra and Borneo Endemic, LC) 1 Asian Fairy Bluebird (LC) 1 Javan Short Tailed Green Magpie (Javan Endemic, CR) 1 Javan Sunbird (Javan Endemic, LC, Law Protected) 2 Unidentified Lorry +10 Racket-tailed Treepie 1 Black Drongo 2 Red Avadavat +10 Javan Pond Heron 1 White-breasted Waterhen 1 Indigo Flycatcher 1 Black-capped Babbler 1 Olive-backed Tailorbird (Javan Endemic, LC) 2 Crescent-chested Babbler (Javan Endemic, LC) 2 Javan Sparrow (Javan Endemic, VU) +5 Unidentified Parrotfinch 2 Brown Shrike (Migrant) 2 Juvenile Purple-backed Starling (Migrant) 1 And many other common cagebird: Munias, Shama, Robin, Thrush, Oriole, Iora, etc. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org
Subject: Identification of Gorsachius Night Heron?
From: Tim Edelsten <gymnojene AT yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:02:33 +0100 (BST)

Greetings all, Are there any observers with experience of both Japanese  and Malayan Night Heron? If so could you help with some identification tips? On May 13th on Weiyon Island, Korea, after south-westerly winds, I flushed an individual Gorsachius Night Heron at close quarters, which seemed to show characteristics shared by both Japanese G.goisagi and Malayan Night Heron G.melanolophus. Immediately striking was an extensive, bright sky-blue cere and bare parts around the eye, and in flight, thick and solid dark bars (not streaking or vermiculations) on the whitish-looking side of the body. In my experience, Japanese does not, or rarely shows these features. It also posessed a dark crown that contrasted fairly noticeably with the rest of the head, although not strikingly so. Although extremely wary, and very unfortunately, not photographed due to its flight through trees and branches, it was subsequently briefly glimpsed twice, darting out of view along the shady trails through thick forest and bamboo. Neither nuchal crest nor white-spotting on the upperwing were particularly noticable (if present), which perhaps points identification toward Japanese. Malayan has been previously recorded once in Korea, while Japanese is here a regular (but very scarce) spring migrant.. I would welcome opinions as to its identity from observers experienced in both species. Does Japanese Night Heron ever show thick, spaced barring? With thanks, Tim Edelsten [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ This group is run in association with the Oriental Bird Club. To find out more about the Club and its conservation work, and to become a member, please visit www.orientalbirdclub.org

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